Jesus describes Hell in terms of "Gehenna">Rabbinic Judaism generally envisioned Gehenna as lasting 12 months for most souls, after which they would be purified and move on—except for the most wicked, who might be destroyed or remain longer.The idea that it was a permanent state for wicked souls is a later invention (ironically resulting from pagan syncretism). Jesus and his followers wouldn't have conceived of Gehenna (Hell) in that respect.
>>18027949hell is literally upon the earth and that is the only correct interpretation of it. the idea that there are places regular people go when they die is retarded heretical gibberish
>>18027949No, you're a retard. Read the book of enoch>have you come to torment us before the time?
>>18027949Isn't Gehenna just a garbage dump in Jerusalem?
>>18027959No giant bones were ever found.
>>18027949>The idea that it was a permanent state for wicked souls is a later invention?Have you not read Revelation
>>18027974Later interpolation written decades after Christ's crucifixion.
>>18027949The Bible uses a lot of never/forever language for something that lasts for a year only.Mark 9:43 >...hell, where the fire never goes out.Revelation 14:9-11>...“If anyone worships the beast ... They will be tormented with burning sulfur ... And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.And before anyone tries "well the fire never goes out but you're in the fire only temporarily", that's not how symbolism generally works. It's not describing objective items in time and space, it's describing experiences. And the experience of a fire that never goes out seems pretty self-explanatory.
>>18028013Everything in the ancient world was written decades after the person's deathHistory as you know it never existed until the Printing Press
>>18027949>Rabbinic Judaism generally envisioned...Wait, stop there. "Rabbinic Judaism" is based on the Babylonian Talmud, which was written in the 3rd to 5th century AD. It has nothing to do with the ancient Jews or Israel mentioned in the Bible.
>>18028222copeThe book of Esther is the most jewish story in the entire bible and every christian denomination I know of accepts it. Most other biblical stories also have a similar jewish character. The talmud didn't develop out of a vacuum.
>>18028238>The book of Esther is the most jewish story in the entire bible and every christian denomination I know of accepts it. Most other biblical stories also have a similar jewish character.Ok, and?>The talmud didn't develop out of a vacuum.It was written by non-Jews who were impersonating an ancient people group. They seem to have originally been a gnostic heresy that decided to start LARPing as "Jews."
>>18028013See >>18028222Also see Matthew 25:46>And these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life.”Also Daniel 12:2>Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.Whatever Gehenna was to Jesus, I don't think it just lasted a year.
>>18028242See also:"As for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell."- Proverbs 9:16-18"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."- Isaiah 66:24The above is the exact verse that Jesus Christ was quoting from in the Gospel of Mark, emphasizing how hell lasts forever. He says once again that their worm shall not die and the fire shall not be quenched. Similarly it says in the book of Revelation that the smoke of their torment ascends forever and they have no rest, day nor night. In Matthew 25:46, Jesus again describes it as "everlasting punishment.""And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."(Matthew 25:46)"There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked."(Isaiah 48:22)
>>18028242>>18028253That sounds more like a satanic religion than whatever you claim christianity is.
>>18028242>shame and everlasting contemptI.e people after the eschaton will forever look at the corpses of the enemies of God with contempt.>>18028253>Proverbs 9:16-18Sheol, i.e the grave, not hell.>Isaiah 66:24Yes, Carcases...The NT verses are more debatable, but thw ancient Israelites didn't believe in eternal hell, in the 2nd temple period we get some more nuance, though.
>>18028258>satanicNo, it's true. See the following:"Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."(Isaiah 66:1-5)"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many."(Isaiah 66:15-16)"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"(2 Thess. 2:10-13)
>>18028272You adopted the entire hell concept from other religions like greek paganism, zoroastrianism and buddhism and used it as a justification for peoole believing in your apocalyptic cult.
>>18028279>This is a universally shared concept>You stole it tho
>>18028281First temple judaism didn't have the concept, or atleast there's no evidence it did.
>>18028294They didn't have concepts of many things that were yet to be revealed. Their threats were the threats of this world.
>>18028279>You adopted the entire hell concept from other religions like greek paganism, zoroastrianism and buddhism and used it as a justification for peoole believing in your apocalyptic cult.I don't know what you're talking about, anon. I didn't write the Bible, I'm just telling you what it says. It's relevant and on topic to the discussion.>>18028270>The NT verses are more debatable,You just flat out ignored the Old Testament references like Isaiah 48:22, so tell me, why does your equally-incorrect opinion about the New Testament matter. Hell exists, and you're headed there according to everything the Bible says. That isn't just my opinion, it's plainly what the Bible itself says. If you reject that, that's your choice. What you can't do is try to twist out of it by offering these blatantly false and lying interpretations of yours, that are very easy to disprove just by quoting from Scripture.>Sheol, i.e the graveThey are in pain in this place, according to the Bible."The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow."- Psalm 116:3"The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me."- Psalm 18:5"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."- Mark 9:43-44
>>18027959The Book of Enoch is non-canonized in most Abrahamic faiths. Also, the Lake of Fire was used to incinerate angels, not eternal torment of humans.
>>18028305>Also, the Lake of Fire was used to incinerate angels, not eternal torment of humans.They copied the concept of Tartarus. The titans being imprisoned there and humans like Sisyphus being punished there.The nephilim/fallen angel story in the book of Enoch is just the greek mythology of the titanomachy but rewritten for a jewish audience.
>>18028297>Isaiah 48:22Wicked kings like Ahab are said to go to rest after their death, surely such a passage can be interpreted in more than one way, especially when the passage has nothing to say about the afterlife.>equally-incorrect opinion about the New TestamentI made no claims about what the NT says...>Psalm 116:3, Psalm 18:5The Psalms are poetry cmon now.>Mark 9:43-44I already said the NT is more debatable, since he's quoting Isaiah 66:24 it's not obvious that he's talking about torture rather than corpses, but he mat well be.
>>18028344>I made no claims about what the NT says...Meanwhile,>>18028270>The NT verses are more debatable,No, no they really are not debatable in the slightest. That's really a false portrayal again.
>2015+10>not being a based annihilationist
>>18028387The following passage doesn't sound like annihilationism, anon."Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."(Matthew 13:36-43)
>>18027949>GehennaThat is not what it says in my King James.>Rabbinic JudaismI do not care what Satan worshipping lying Jews envision.>later inventionAh, there it is. You are a liar who hates God's word. Enjoy Hell. You fully deserve it.
>>18028427That passage is compatible with anihalationism, the wicked being thrown in the fire and the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" happening before their destruction. Revelations is harder to argue against, though.
>>18028440>That passage is compatible with anihalationism,It doesn't sound like it at all. There is nowhere that it says the suffering ends. As was mentioned in Matthew 25:46, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."And in case you weren't sure what that is, it also says in Matthew 25:41 the following: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"So, it's everlasting fire that is called an everlasting punishment. And in Psalm 116 as we already pointed out, it also says that hell is associated with a kind of pain, literally "the pains of hell." I'm just telling you what the Bible says here. I don't see how you can really argue out of it.I could also talk about what it says in Mark and Luke as well if that wasn't enough. Because there's more evidence in those books that I haven't even brought up yet.
/his/ made me lose the last bits of faith I had in the good of christians. They are no better than muslims. They are just weak nowadays.
>>18028436You know Jesus was called "Rabbi" by his followers, right? John 1:38
>>18028467>You know Jesus was called "Rabbi" by his followers, right? John 1:38In Matthew 23 it says the following:"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."(Matthew 23:8-10)So, according to this biblical passage, whoever these other people calling themselves "rabbi" are, they are satanic liars and wicked evildoers, and they are not really a Rabbi in the true sense.Hopefully that makes sense.
>>18028479You're deliberate misinterpretation aside, Jesus is referred to as Rabbi throughout the New Testament in plenty of other places too.>Mark 9:5: Peter says, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here
>>18028484>Jesus is referred to as Rabbi throughout the New Testament in plenty of other places too.Correct. But I'm saying the people who are part of modern Rabbinic Judaism are not really "rabbi" in the Biblical sense. They are what I said before. Only Christ is a Rabbi, not these other people.I'm sure everyone else knows what I am saying even if you don't get it.
>>18028495>Sure he was a Rabbi but that doesn't mean Jesus had anything to do with Rabbinical Judaism!That's how retarded you sound
>>18028506We've discussed this already in this thread. Please see: >>18028222
>>18028509Rabbinical Judaism is based on the Oral Torah which precedes the birth of Christ by over a thousand years. Nice try though.
>>18028539>Rabbinical Judaism is based on the Oral Torah which precedes the birth of Christ by over a thousand years.And your dad works for Nintendo and lets you play all the latest Nintendo 64 games, right?
>>18028458>It doesn't sound like it at allOk.>"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."The punishment, i.e death, is eternal and is contrasted with the reward, which is also eternal, being life.>Matthew 25:41The fire being eternal doesn't contradict anything I've said, the corpses will burn for eternity, where they're displayed as the destroyed enemies of God.Basically all passages in the NT talking about the afterlife are compatible with annihilationism. Are they the most natrual readings? I'd say it depends to a large extent on what ideas you already have in your head beforehand...I've even seen some people try to argue Revelations can be fit into an annihilationist perspective, but I don't find that very convincing personally.
I think annihilationism and to an even greater external universalism rely on supposing that common translations are biased and wrong. So the issue goes deeper than the average person is liable to look.https://thechristianuniversalist.blogspot.com/2022/07/just-how-long-is-eternal-study-on.html
>>18028573*even greater extent
>>18028541Nice non-argument. I accept your concession.
>>18028545>I've even seen some people try to argue Revelations can be fit into an annihilationist perspectiveThe book of Revelation is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Someone quoted Daniel 12:2 before. That also lines up with what it says in 2 Peter and Jude."And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."(Daniel 12:2)"These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever."(2 Peter 2:17)"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."(Jude 1:10-13)This all gives a consistent picture with what it says in Psalms, Proverbs, Matthew and the book of Revelation, and anywhere else we can quote. The Psalms and Proverbs contain doctrinal truths, as Christ and the apostles quoted directly from them. If you accept the New Testament, you should also accept that.We have to conclude that you would have to reject the entire Bible to disbelieve this. That is, hell being a place of neverending fire and darkness, consisting of everlasting torment. Eventually, those who are in hell will stand in judgement at an appointed time, and be condemned for their sins. Then, according to the Bible, they will be sent into the lake of fire for eternity, where even after 1000 years those thrown into it are still there.
>>18028610Daniel says nothing about torment neither does 2 Peter or Jude.>That is, hell being a place of neverending fire and darkness, consisting of everlasting torment.How can it be everlasting if they later change location? The annihalationist view is that hell is destroyed when thrown into the lake of fire, and the people (aswell as rebelious angels) are destroyed forever.
>>18028650>Daniel says nothing about torment neither does 2 Peter or Jude.We already established that Psalm 116:3 and Matthew 13 mention the torment associated with hell. And when Jesus quotes from the ending of Isaiah, He says that the fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die. So we see they are in agony because of the fire and the worms that keep eating them. This is all Biblical statements that go right along with Daniel, 2 Peter and Jude, showing that this condition of suffering never ends. Annihilationists are trying to shoehorn an idea that just doesn't fit with these passages when taken as a whole.>The annihalationist view is that hell is destroyed when thrown into the lake of fire, and the people (aswell as rebelious angels) are destroyed forever.Well that again contradicts what it says in Revelation 20. It says the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and 1000 years passes. Then, after 1000 years, it says the devil is thrown into the lake of fire, "where the beast and the false prophet are." It doesn't say "were," it says they still are there after 1000 years."And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."(Revelation 20:10)It can't be any more clear, just read what it says right there. Why don't they just admit that they reject the Bible outright, instead of trying to do this and embarrass themselves. Plus give me an opportunity to post these passages at the same time, to once again remind everyone.
>>18028573I think you *can* make a somewhat reasonable case for annihilationism without assuming too much corruption, universalism is pure cope though.https://youtu.be/l__6DzzqEzI?feature=sharedI don't agree this is "undebatable proof", but I'd still recommend watching.
>>18028467Tick tock.
>>18028427If you can do all that, you can just transform the wicked into good instead of throwing them all in a flaming bin. Practice what you preach. How hard would it be for God to just bypass whatever irredeemable quality asserted in these passages and just rebirth each and every wicked and inquitous being? >Why would He? They do not appreciate or care genuinely!Is God a petty man now?
>>18028683>So we see they are in agony because of the fire and the worms that keep eating them.The passage in question never uses the term "agony." You keep ignoring the fact that an annihilationist would respond that the passage is referring to corpses, and that it is the corpses that are continually burned and feasted upon as an enduring testimony of shame. >tormented day and night for ever and everYes. It specifically says that Satan, the beast and the false prophet, together with those who receive the mark, are tormented forever. It doesn't state explicitly that all sinners everywhere will experience this conscious, eternal torment. The same place can potentially do different things to different persons - tormenting and destroying some, and perpetually tormenting others. >It can't be any more clearExcept it isn't. The Bible refers explicitly to conscious, eternal torment only once. And it does so in reference to Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and to all those who receive the mark. It does not state explicitly that all sinners shall share in this particular punishment.
>>18029493>Is God a petty man now?Lol, you thinks you can manipulate God by shaming him like you do with men. God decided the faith of the sinners before the creation of the world, you really think your silly arguments are going to change his mind? Take heed of the warning God is issuing to sinners and put all the effort you can into avoiding sin, that is what you would do if you were wise, instead of trying to argue with the Most High.
>>18029546>The Bible refers explicitly to conscious, eternal torment only once.See the following:"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."- Matthew 25:41-46"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."- Luke 16:22-25Note that the word used in Luke 16:23 is "ᾅδης" or "hades," so there's no denying that this term also refers to hell as well as that mentioned in Mark 9:43."And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"(Mark 9:43)
>>18030900>MatthewSee https://elijahkeay.wordpress.com/2019/03/25/matthew-25-a-hell-of-a-lot-less-than-conscious-eternal-torment/>LukeHades is not eternal because it will be thrown into the lake of fire>MarkThe worms that don't die and the fire that isn't quenched aren't something Jesus is pulling out of thin air, it's a reference to Isaiah 66, where it's said in reference to corpses. "And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me, for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
>>18030940>Hades is not eternal because it will be thrown into the lake of fireIt is unending torment (happening right now) until they are resurrected, only to be judged for their sins. Then these same individuals experience an infinite time of torture, pain and agony, as well as sorrow and damnation, after being sent rightfully to the lake of fire. This is what the Bible says. And at that point, I believe all doubts will be clarified, and based on the judgement given for their sins and their rejection of Christ, there won't be any doubts left that this is exactly what these individuals deserve. Everyone knows this is what it's about except a few people who want to live in denial. And it isn't really something to be joked around about or taken lightly actually, as I have noticed far too many people use the word "hell" lightly now."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."(John 5:28-29)This refers again to what it says in Revelation 20, where it talks about the lake of fire being the so-called "second death.""And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."(Revelation 20:11-15)
>>18027974Have you?>And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.So, what we have here is a text that describes the "lake of fire" as being a "second death" and that this is the fate of the damned. That is, the punishment the damned face on the day of judgment is annihilation, not an ongoing eternal existence in Hell. Indeed, Hell itself is going to be destroyed on the day of judgment.
>>18030968The second death is called the second death because it's the death of the soul, not eternal conscious torment, and it identifies Jesus' idea of Gehenna with the lake of fire in Revelation."Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]. (Matthew 10:28).Though interestingly a person is more than their body and their soul.1 Thessalonians 5:23"May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."And the spirit is what performs the knowing function, and so might correspond to consciousness.1 Corinthians 2:11"For what human knows what is truly human except the human spirit that is within? So also no one comprehends what is truly God’s except the Spirit of God."So will the destruction of the soul leave the spirit trapped to be tormented forever? To suggest so would be to suggest that God can't accomplish what he desires to accomplish, so I don't think so. I think the destruction of the soul is just the last resort to save the spirit.2 Peter 3:9"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."1 Timothy 2:3-4This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.1 Corinthians 15:28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Mark 10:26-27And they were even more astonished, and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?” Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
>>18031035I also think it might be possible that those who are given over to the second death are already spiritless, though that would undercut the severity of the warning against the second death.Jude 1:19"These are those who cause divisions, psychical men, not possessing spirit."Galatians 6:8"If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh, but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit."I have a mental model inspired by Valentinian Gnosticism where the soul is a pattern formed by the mixture/interaction of spirit and matter, and the aim of the spirit is to acquire a soul that is compatible with heaven, but some spirits will fail. So the separation of spirit and matter will eventually occur, and the spirit will be saved inevitably, but the soul could go with one or the other, and if it goes with matter it will be destroyed, while if it goes with the spirit then it will be immortalized. Something like that.
>>18031035>1 Corinthians 2:11I believe the NIV and KJV are much clearer in this instance. Idk what the NRSV people were thinking there."For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.""For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."
>>18029642>"Might is right, deal with it"I couldnt see through you any more clearly if you were a glass box.
>>18031391Here is the original context of that verse, by the way."9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:9-14)According to the Bible, only believers can understand God's word, because the Holy Spirit directly teaches them. He is the true witness and the author of Scripture. Unbelievers can't possibly understand God's word precisely because they do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only saved people do. See below:"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."(John 14:16-17)"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."(John 14:26)"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"(John 15:26)(1/2)
>>18031391>>18031534Cont'd:"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."(John 16:13-14)"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."(Acts 5:32)"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"(Luke 11:9-13)"Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."(2 Corinthians 1:21-22)"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."(Ephesians 1:13-14)"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."(1 John 2:27)"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:"(1 John 5:10a)"And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."(1 John 5:6b)
>>18027949>Rabbinic Judaismwhat does this deranged cult have to do with the Son of Man?
>>18031560It says, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14). It says he won't receive them and also that he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned. See the second part of verse 14.
>>18027949>rabbinical Judaism >hell in Christianity You do realize that Christians and Rabbinical jews don't believe in the same religion right retard?
>>18031565Sorry, I deleted it because I did see that and for a moment thought I was mistaken, but now I think "knowing" is distinct from understanding. Some translations do have "understand" instead of "know" but the verb there seems to the related to gnosis, so I do guess that know is the better translation. And it's entirely possible to understand something without knowing it if the evidence is unavailable to you, maybe because you lack the relevant perceptual capacity. But at the same time it's very common for people to think they know things when they don't.
>>18031575The important point here is the idea of private interpretations is rejected by the apostles in the NT. It's really the Holy Spirit who is the only teacher capable of giving spiritual understanding to anyone at all (and thus capable of understanding inspired Scripture) according to them."Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."(2 Peter 1:20-21)So, it all depends on whether God is there to give the correct understanding in the saved person's life. And of course, they also have to study the word as well; they can't slack off and just not study it.
>>18031596An interesting fun fact regarding that verse is that by a footnote in the NRSV, one viable translation is that "no prophecy of scripture is a matter of the prophet's own interpretation." Though I don't know Greek well enough to say how likely that is over the usual. Either way, I accept the academic opinion that 2 Peter is a forgery, so in my view the church can easily be and in many cases is just wrong about things. How well that fits with the Holy Spirit teaching people I'm not sure, but getting back to the topic of the thread I'm about as certain as I can be on a topic like this that the idea of eternal conscious torment for anyone is wrong. And if anyone is claiming to have been taught that says they were taught it by the Holy Spirit, I would suggest that maybe they were instead taught it by a demon. So if I'm wrong then by some scripture and interpretations of scripture maybe I've just condemned myself to eternal torment by blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but my level of certainty makes that acceptable possibility to me.
>>18027949>>Rabbinic Judaism generally envisioned Gehenna as lasting 12 months for most souls, after which they would be purified and move on—except for the most wicked, who might be destroyed or remain longer.stolen from zoroastrianism.>>18028305>Also, the Lake of Fire>>18028332>They copied the concept of Tartarusthe lake of fire is egyptian (just like messiah and christ, both egyptian terms)>>18028242>Whatever Gehenna was to Jesusunless you want to discuss what elohim was to jesus and the parisees vs what elohim actually was, you shouldn't use that as an argument
>>18031632Please stop replying to me. I have been posting this for the information of other people.
>>18027949>Rabbinic JudaismCreated 400 years after Christianity. Gehenna is eternal. >“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
>>18027974Revelation is an ancient Christian code book, it has no actual spiritual value, like Paul and his writings.
