>We're all sinners who deserve hell>Jesus died for our sins so we can go to heaven>So now, if we believe in Jesus, we get to go to heaven--which we do not deserve>You should believe in Jesus to go to HeavenI can't stress enough how disgusting this entire concept is. First, the statement "we are all sinners" is completely meaningless. All human beings do some things that are correct and other things that are incorrect. To say "we're all sinners" is just emphasizing the negative aspect of the fact that our moral conduct varies over time. You could emphasize the positive aspect of it too, by saying "we are all good," and it would be just as valid. What matters in morality isn't whether the person has the trait of "being a sinner" or the trait of "being good," but whether you, now, facing a decision with moral consequences, do the correct thing. Second, the idea that "Jesus died for our sins." How is it remotely fair or just for somebody else to take your punishment for you? And if our deserved punishment is eternal hell, then how did Jesus make up for it by undergoing crucifixion, dying after a few hours, and making a temporary visit to Hell? He'd have to spend ETERNITY in Hell to "pay" for the sins of someone whose just reward is eternal hell.Third and finally, what kind of subhuman WANTS something they don't deserve? If you don't deserve heaven, and you understand basic morality, you will spend your entire time in heaven feeling ashamed about having been given this totally undeserved gift. Only a retard or a sociopath would feel genuinely happy in an undeserved afterlife.
To me atleast, it only makes sense from the perspective that God himself is atoning for something. The idea is that God being killed by his own creation puts himself in a similer position as when his creation suffers the senseless cruelties that come in life and all the truly corrupt and twisted things that happen to good people in this world. In this way God has truly become human in more ways than just flesh and bone. The death of God also opens up a horizon of human possibilities, we can not longer find solace and comfort in the all knowing father watching up from the heavens, with the death of God our comfort comes within the community of believers. We create a community that does not need the superego injunction of God's commandments to follow to mediate our relationships, the only commandment we are left to obey is to love thy neighbor which is just a practice of opening up our hearts to the unknown.
I agree with your points. I think that people need to put the work in to improve themselves to deserve Heaven, or actual Heaven and not some artificial construct.
Those who would glorify your sacrifice always seem to profit off of said sacrifice. Altruism is dogshit and a great chain on human morality.
>>18029420>a jew in the sky raped a jewess so he could give birth to himself and sacrifice himself to himself to prevent himself from throwing people into his magic lava.
>>18029549when you put it like that it all sounds pretty dumb
>>18029556Because thats not how it happened. If it actually worked that way, he could have just bypassed the woman altogether. Getting pregnant is not possible, not even by alien standards unless you are a lizard.
>>18029714*Getting pregnant magically
The whole concept of sin is completly foreign to real Christianity. Sin as it is commonly understand is a recent invention and it's definitely not what Jesus would have taught. To give you an idea the Jews did not ever view sin the way the modern Christians do. Sin in Judaism was something you could atone for by yourself, if you wronged someone you could undo the sin by doing good to them. There was animal sacrifice involved but that was only for certain types of sin. It was never some uncurable thing.The idea that you cannot redeem yourself of sin is an idea made by the Christian priesthood to gain power. The very idea that sin and redemption was supposed to be the main part of Christianity was most likely a corruption of the message. Jesus appoints his followers with the power to forgive sins, in other words any Christian can forgive any sins. You don't need to involve God.Think about what Jesus spends the vast majority of his time talking about. Think about all those parables that Catholics never fucking care about. The vast majority of Jesus's lines are just about how to live your life, it's just wisdom. That's it. That's what Christianity was originally about! Those parables are the MOST IMPORTANT part of the religion. It was about life, this life, and how to live it well. When Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is inside you, he meant it literally. Heaven is a state of mind. But later Christians failed to understand his teachings and eventually turned his teachings into the clown-house of Christianity, they even corrupted their own scriptures to meet their needs.The point of Jesus's death, is to set an example about how to die with grace."Christians" took what might have been practical advice about how to live a spiritually fufilled life and turned it into a fucking after-life cult.
>>18029420Heaven is literally too perfect for any man to deserve.Jesus is God coming down to us a man and living a perfect life. This solves a big problem relating to God. How can God be absolutely Just and absolutely Loving? Simple>he charges us for our sins with a fine (justice)>he forgives your sins (mercy)>pays the fine for you (love)The "Good News" is the gospel of righteousness: that God, through Jesus's Cross and Resurrection (display of ultimate love), offers to transform sinners into saints who will live in a future New Heaven and New Earth.
>>18029420ImagineYou are a father; your son is guilty of a crimeLet's say he is sentenced to 10 years.If you were both all-loving and all-powerful, would you not choose instead to serve his sentence for him?>inb4 why is it this way tho???it just is. any understanding of whether or not humans are "moral" will make you realize that the most moral thing a human can do is understand that they are not moral at all. similar to how anyone who knows anything knows that they know nothing. if you honestly examine yourself and come away not feeling guilty, you are probably just not very moral. psychologists generally call this "narcissism" - the refusal to admit faults.
>First, the statement "we are all sinners" is completely meaninglessIts forced theology. Once you believe jesus is required to be justified before god you need to invent a reason to compel everyone on earth to become christian. Hence original sin. The order is backwards, its not that all humans are sinners therefor jesus was sent for the human sacrifice, its that a religion about jesus exists and he was sacrificed and now theology needs to be created to give it a purpose and make it necessary for everyone
>>18029988If you dont see man as depraved you dont know man at all.
>>18029519Those two statements have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Are ypu retarded or just having a stroke?
Historically, Christians have proposed at least six distinct frameworks because the substitutionary model is philosophically awkward.
