Need to go to baku to get oil. Goes to Stalingrad. They literally were too stupid to read a fucking map. They would have never made it.

>>18029658
>>18029691
Nah. They almost made it despite their blunders. If things went right for them they’d have won hands down.

>>18029712
almost made what? 100% warscore? Stalin would've just pulled back and guerilla warfare'd German supply lines into collapsing. It's not just about the oil, you know

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>>18029712

>>18029691
You dont understand anon, it was STALINgrad. They had to take it at all costs because of its name.

>>18029719
How much control does he still have when Moscow and Leningrad have fallen and the Germans seem unstoppable?
At some point someone is going to put together a network of "counterrevolutionaries" to oust Stalin and make a deal

>>18029767
well, Moscow and Leningrad were ABOUT to fall and his leadership was never in doubt (at least I don't know of any credible threats to him). I think any serious military analysis at the time would show that the operation is a massive stretch on German resources and is practically unsustainable. So you just wait them out

>>18029658
>capturing Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad
before of after they capture London, Cairo and sydney?

>>18029891
yes how retarded to assume that besieging 2 of those and getting to within like 20 miles of the third was any sign they could capture them

>>18029899
Almost doesn't count, and there's no silver medal in war.

>>18029902
I'm not giving them silver medals

>>18029899
exactly, they could not take any of them, and moscow would be 10x harder to take than leningrad which was like x10 harder to take than stalingrad, that germs couldn't take

>>18029658
Stalin would be dead if that happened.

>>18029915
is there any evidence that someone was plotting behind his back? My impression is that he had an iron grip on power by then

>>18029658
The issue is that even getting to the AA line is more dependent on German capabilities than on Soviet ones (or lack thereof).
I don't think people really appreciate the monumental Herculean task that it is to move supplies across shit terrain for millions of men and their equipment. I grew up in a remote Australian cattle station and it was already a nightmare for us to get spare parts and basic shit for our 4 cars, now imagine doing that in a warzone for 3+ million men and 50,000+ vehicles and probably another 1 million horses or so

>>18029921
Yeah, Stalin was reportedly afraid for his life and acting very erratic when the Germans were first approaching Moscow.

>>18029925
>reportedly afraid for his life
is that anything new though? Stalin was always a paranoid schizo

>>18029767
>some point someone is going to put together a network of "counterrevolutionaries" to oust Stalin and make a deal
That was the funny part, Stalin was sure they were gonna coup his ass in 1941 but then nothing happened explicitly because his purges sort of worked in that sense, there was fucking Nobody left to challenge his rule and everyone left alive in the USSR was wholly subservient to him

>>18029719
>>18029722
This isn’t HOI4 bro. Stalin wanted a separate peace in early 1944. If the Germans had taken more through good fortune or fewer mistakes it’s completely reasonable to say Stalin would cut his losses and live in a truly asiatic empire beyond the Urals.

>>18029928
>a paranoid schizo
I mean, any sane man would be one in his position (or would end dead fast)

>>18029748
It was the central hub around the Kuban region and the only major rail station that could support large scale operations to into the Caucasus from the east.
The Germans wanted Stalingrad knocked because it would hinder Soviet projection into the Caucasus.

>>18029769
>just wait them out
You mean like the Tsar did?
The Soviet State would have to put all its resources into maintaining control of what it had left and if they had this aggressive mentality against Germany the Germans would bomb them indiscriminately.
The Germans had air superiority over the Soviets at various points throughout 1944, an often overlooked aspect of the eastern front.
If the major Soviet airfields and logistical capacity is strained further Stalin would be fighting with ground troops against aerial forces. It would be foolish to do anything but take a treaty with Germany and hope you get concession in an eventual German defeat. Worked for the Soviets the first time.

>>18029935
So why do you need to take the city to do that instead of just encircling it to remove its value as a rail hub? They wabted to say "Stalin's city is ours now"!

>>18030023
I’d imagine having a large pocket of resistance and being unable to use the rail system yourself was a factor.

>>18030023
they would have to cross the volga river and a bunch of marshland

>>18030023
If they had just pushed for Baku while ignoring the city, the Soviets would use the city as a large staging base for an offensive. Avoiding taking the city would’ve been suicidal for Germany, even moreso than what happened historically.

>>18029658
Even had they managed to conquer all the way to the AA line it wouldn't solve the mounting problems, or likely even the soviet will to continue fighting. And with the German forces having to continue to concentrate in the east (perhaps even more than historically because of all the partisans) it would still give the western allies an opportunity to land in the west. At best for Germany it extends the war a year or two.
>Operation Barbarossa just sounds like the most retarded invasion in history with zero chance of success
It kinda was, but Hitler and his general staff were filled with arrogance and the belief that the racial superiority of the Germans would make the war a cakewalk. They really did believe that the soviets would fall in a matter of months.

>>18030120
They were right. The Soviets had to be on life support because German forces were unstoppable tactically.

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>>18030132
they weren't unstoppable thermodynamically though, were they

>>18030120
they beat them in ww1 so they thought they could win again

>>18030138
>heckin Nazis le owned
Haha yes very good.
Anyway the Soviets had to be heavily supported by their American collaborators. They were in a tough position in 1941 and this whole “Germany would have beaten themselves, the Soviets didn’t need to do anything” that’s just nonsense.

>>18029691
>don't go to and hold Stalingrad
>go to Baku
>get counterattacked, cut off and utterly buttfucked
Too stupid to read a map indeed.

Capturing cities and territory would not automatically end the war.

>>18029658
Victory, whether they realized it or not, would have relied on either a successful attempt at killing Stalin, or someone else within the Soviet Union killing him for perceived or real incompetence, but simultaneously not replacing him with someone (or a figurehead) that was viewed as massively more competent than Stalin, or a celebrity general.

>>18031706
Oh and I forgot to mention Hitler would’ve also had to have not been so retarded as to declare war against the United States as a symbolic gesture of solidarity with his Jap allies-in-name-only who couldn’t give any less of a fuck about him. Would’ve probably also helped not to put someone in charge of administering Ukraine that not only viewed Slavs as subhuman but was stupid enough to quickly start turning them into a slave labor force while the war was ongoing, making them view the war as one for their very existence, when they had originally greeted them as liberators in many parts of Ukraine.

So basically they needed to not be so retarded

>>18029924
A division required between 10.000 - 20.000 tons of supplies per month depending on whether it was mechanized or not.

That's why Rommels Africa corps could only field three divisions. He required 70.000 tons per month but the port of Tripoli could only operate 45.000 tons at its maximum capacity. It was physically impossible for Germany to field any more divisions there. Benghazi and Tobruk could barely increase that number and they were rarely used anyway because of their vulnerable proximity ot Royal Airforce and Royal Navy proximity.
Not to mention, North Africa had no railway so all those tens of thousands of tons of supplies had to be hauled across the northern continent by trucks on a single dirt road which itself caused catastrophic logistical problems because trucks would get jammed from dust and floodings.
Also the fact that Rommels advance meant that the supply line from Tripoli to the front became thousands of kilometers. The supply line of trucks needed its own supply line of trucks, which in turn needed its own supply line of trucks, plus the fact that it was already overseas. One frontline division in North Africa had the consumption rate of 10 divisions in Russia.
And this was already a Germany whos resources were stretched thin and multiple fronts competing for priority to keep the fuel gage up, from the Altantic sea between the British isles and US coastline to the skies above Germany defending against bombers, to the Arctic sea around Murmansk and Leningrad to the Mediteranian sea covering from Europe to Africa to the Caucasian steppe near Stalingrad to the middle east frontier of the Suez canal.

>>18029932
>This isn’t HOI4 bro.
Projecting hard faggot. Learn history.

> Stalin wanted a separate peace in early 1944.
LMAO

>>18031808
He think he just sucks at the game and that's why he mentions it in every thread tangentially related to war.

>>18029658
all the ifs and buts are just pointless. barbarossa WAS the most retarded invasion in history, there was 0% chance the germoids win or even go even. they calculated the red army to be like 1/3 its actual size and were horrified even in winter of 41-42 when more divisions popped up "out of thin air"

>>18031962
Worked in 1917.

>>18031808
>>18031828
>Stalin would stay in the war no matter what because uh
shut up, Polskapes.
How about you come to America and get an actual education, everything you say comes across as chimpspeak.
>Hoi4
You guys have admitted to wargaming babarossa in hoi4 to prove it couldnt happen LOL

>>18032336
No one talks about hoi4 except for you, and you do it in every thread.
It is also you who keep doing your whole "Germany can win" bullshit in every thread, mostly by your paratroopers meme, which unorincally sounds like videogame logic.

It's enough reason to believe that you're projecting hard over this whole hoi4 thing. You're probably the only one who plays it here.

>>18031712
>So basically they needed to not be so retarded
Essentially, but most of that retardation was a core part of Nazi ideology, so you're pretty much saying the only way for the Nazis to win is for them not to be Nazis.

>>18031706
>>18031712

The decision to invade the USSR wasnt as stupid as you make it sound like.
Unironically it was the best decision they could have made, despite the fact that it was a catastrophe.
Here is why;

Britain refused to sue for peace. This means Germany is locked in a war against an empire with all available resources from itself and the rest of the world market.
This means Germany fights a war at sea and air and overseas, it's a war of resources and production, one where the British empire has a clear advantage.
This also means Germany is under blockade. but not just Germany, but all her occupied territory as well which Germany has to feed with food and oil to sustain, as well as itself and its armed forces.

Germany had extensive trade agreements with the USSR specifically for food and oil, but it wasnt enough. USSR would export roughly 3 million tons of grain and 1,5 million tons of oil but Germany constantly needed more in order to sustain the situation.
Germany also had to offer the USSR something in return. They had to barter with German machinery, engineering and weapons.
Stalin also pressed Germany to make concessions as payment. He wanted greater influence each time a deal was made to increase the quotas of food. He demanded greater influence over Iran, over Turkey, but also over Finland and Bulgaria and Romania. He even took further land from Romania that Germany relied on, which Hitler was in no position to object because Germany was subservient to Soviet trade.

It was also the fact that the Soviets were modernizing and industrializing, and German trade of manufacturing and engineering aided this process.
It was also the fact that they were rearming the Red Army from the catastrophe in Finland.
Given enough time, the Soviets would be unbeatable.
This was the same reason Imperial Germany in her 1912 cabinet meeting desired war as soon as possible, because a modernized Russia can impose their will on Germany.

>>18032363
Continue.

Hitler was also pressed to demobilize the vast German army. A war with Britain is a war at sea and air and overseas, yet Germany maintained a huge mobilized army on the continent, while the British army was very small, it created an unequal balance of consumption for no gain at all.
Yet Hitler couldnt demobilize his army when the Soviet Red Army was expanding, and moving her frontline divisions closer to Germany.
It's also the fact that the Wehrmacht was at its peak performance after the French campaign. It was now when it had the best training, the best experience, the best morale etc.
Meanwhile the Soviet catastrophe in Finland showed that the Red Army was (for now) at its lowest performance.
There was a window of opportunity for Germany to take out USSR, thus gaining the resources she needs, thus removing the threat of a sudden attack, thus removing the constant subjugation to Stalins demands that conflicted with German interests, thus removing the ideological enemy of jewish communism (as Hitler believed), and to realise the dream of autarky and livingspace.

A window of opportunity, and it also made the most sense.

Now Hitler doesnt deserve all the blame for Barbarossas failure. He trusted his generals and the generals planned Barbarossa extremely poorly. Like one anon said, they miscalculated the size of the Red army to be roughly 150 divisions, when in reality it was over 300. That's probably one of the most catastrophic failure of military inteligence in the modern age.
They also did not account for weather, such as the spring thaw, the river flooding, the spring mud etc. They also emphasized on the traiditonal Prussian doctrine of "Schwerpunkt" as they pressed Hitler to target Moscow and Leningrad above everything else.
Meanwhile Hitler argued for a concentration in the south to gain the resources asap. As it turns out, the main Soviet concentration of armament was in the south (Battle Brody, Battle Kiev).

>>18029691
Do you know what two rivers meets at Stalingrad you fucking dipshit?

>>18032374
Finally, with everything said, Hitler also absolutely deserves credit for Barbarossa failed.

The main 'thinking' behind Barbarossa relied on ideological conviction of communists and slavs. Barbarossa was planned for 6 weeks. Few people realise what an absurd timeframe that is. In 6 weeks Germany was going to occupy the western half of the country.
This means that the Germans anicipated that they would destroy the Red Army in the opening blow, and that the 'jewish communist slav state' would collapse under the pressure.
When Hitler said "We only need to kick in the door, and the whole rotten structure comes crashing down", that's literally how Barbarossa was planned. The Germans would drive unopposed and capture her targets, the grain fields and the oil plants intact.
They knew they couldnt capture these INTACT against a fighting resistnace, so they simply anticipated there would be none.

When the door was kicked in but the structure still stood, there was no plan B.
Hitler lamented several times over how badly they had miscalculated the Soviets military capability. Both to Mannerheim and to Göring.

>>18032363
>>18032374
>>18032382

Btw Source: Glantz - When Titans clashed

>>18032386
now that was interesting read anon, keep it up

Cool, you take them and now you still have to fight the allies and have an extra few million soviets.
The allies can still supply the soviets with the train lines and ships.
The allies, especially Britain, wouldn't have stopped fighting until Germany was defeated and foreign troops marched in Berlin. Nobody would allow Germany to control those lands.

>>18031712
>Oh and I forgot to mention Hitler would’ve also had to have not been so retarded as to declare war against the United States as a symbolic gesture of solidarity with his Jap allies-in-name-only
No, Hitler declared war against the US because he believed that after the Japanese success at Pearl Harbor the war was won by the Axis and the Japanese are about to crush the Americans just like he had just - seemingly - crushed the Soviets. He also said on that occasion that Japan has never lost a war, kek - and he wanted his share of spoils of conquered USA.

>>18032374
>Meanwhile Hitler argued for a concentration in the south to gain the resources asap
I've heard that Hitler getting sick and his generals ignoring his southern strike orders and pushing for Moscow is what lead to the ultimate failure of barbarossa, an interesting alt hist scenario, Hitler builds his bunker in a less swampy area and the Heer reaches the caspian sea

>>18032517
No physical evidence for battle of stalingrad.
>>18032416

>>18029658
EVERYTHING went right for Germany, Russia lost her whole mobilized army, and the Germans still couldn't do it (possibly because you cannot conquer Eurasia with horse wagons kek). What more advantage for the Germans could you expect - that the Soviets just surrender to them and let themselves be genocided because superior German spirit?

>>18032588
No physical evidence for battle of stalingrad

>>18029748
Hitler literally addresses this meme in his Stalingrad speech, its ridiculous that anti Hitlerian propaganda still circulates 80 years later.

>>18032416
Wow, what a fucking idiot