If you actually want to understand why the Greek gods did so much shit we find morally questionable, think of how the ancient Greeks themselves actually viewed the gods.The gods were seen as forces of nature and thus were above human morality since they're to us as we are to ants. The gods were never meant to be bastions of morality and they were worshiped as a form of tribute to honor them for keeping the cosmic order in balance (even though the gods technically didn't need worship from mortals to survive and wouldn't be affected by humanity ceasing to worship them). The “relationship” between gods and mortals was also a transactional one in which people would sacrifice an animal or make an offering to a god in hopes that said god would in return grant them some kind of favor, this can be understood via the Latin phrase do ut des meaning “I give so that you may give.“The idea that any deity has a personal relationship with humans is actually a Christian invention that never would have existed otherwise.
>>18031031Hell, not even just the Greek gods, this applies to other pantheons as well. Like nature itself; gods are neither “good“ nor “evil“, they simple are.
>>18031031Well put. Praise to the Lord for defeating this.
Maybe Tom Holland is right and Christianity is so utterly dominant, that people cannot fathom the idea of having a relationship with a diety that isn't on their knees begging for something while avoiding being smote for doing a naughty.
>>18031041I think this idea of the gods aligns more with reality than the Abrahamic religions do. In the grand scheme of things, humanity is not precious and could be wiped out at any moment. Nature can both bless us and destroy us. None of this is “good” or “evil”, it simply is.The gods are merely personifications of this, it’s not even exclusive to the Greeks since the Sumerians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Romans, Norse, etc also had the same beliefs about their gods.
>>18031056Agreed. Things happen according to who is stronger, who is proactive, who takes action, and where the chips fall. They don't happen because of mere predestination, which is a simplification of everything we've just described here.>>18031041Good and evil just boil down to life and death. Most things are not unambiguously one or the other, as most things involve some life and some death.
>>18031056>I think this idea of the gods aligns more with reality than the Abrahamic religions doIt aligns more with nature as we, the least nature-connected people, think of it. Random impulses, some of which can be exploited. That's essentially just a late capitalist view of the cosmos. And it seems to have been insufficient.>In the grand scheme of things, humanity is not precious>None of this is “good” or “evil”, it simply is.Where did you learn of this scheme?>The gods are merely personifications of thisRight, so not only is your view of the cosmos late-capitalist, it is de-personalized too (which was not the case for most pagans). Fella, all these things were tried and left behind for a reason.>>18031060>Good and evil just boil down to life and death.Every time someone uses "just" like this, they turn a useful insight into a counter-productive leap. Life and death are extremely useful categories to frame morality in, I completely agree. But that is not the whole story.
>>18031031>The idea that any deity has a personal relationship with humans is actually a Christian invention that never would have existed otherwise.Pagans had relationships with the deities and they constantly interfered with human affairs in their mythology
abrahamic religion was definitely a mistake
Worship = transactional, aimed at favor, not moral guidance.
>>18031570The difference is just a metaphor away.
>>18031031Greeks do have a moral authority but it wasn't the gods and it was the far far vaguer concept of 'fate.' Example, Zeus had to intervene in the Iliad because Achilles was slaughtering too many Trojans and if he had sacked Troy by itself it would have violated the fate already destined for him. Fate is a moral superlative above the Gods themselves which they are beholden to.
>Zeus sees a pretty looking mortal and rapes her>hera finds out about it>Instead of castrating Zeus she horrifically curses or kills the mortal and the child she produced with Zeus instead>repeat x10That seems pretty fucking evil to me.Or one of my least favorite stories in Ovid's Metamorphosis, where a hunter by chance stumbles across Diana bathing in the woods. Angered by this she splashes some water in the hunter's face and says "you may tell all what you have seen here, tell it if you can" and he then transforms into a stag. Losing his ability to speak, but not his human mind he momentarily wonders if he should return to his city or not, but this is cut off as his own hunting dogs and the rest of his hunting party mistake him for an ordinary deer and he is savagely ripped to pieces by the dogs, and as he dies in excruciating pain he makes a disturbing death rattle that was the combination of the screams of a dying man and a dying deer.
>>18031031Pretty accurate but polytheism has always had literalists, fundamentalists, progressive understandings, deistic and even some "monotheistic" elements all going alongside each other consistentlyThis is why polytheistic religions always have to allow debate and discussion on the nature of the Gods
>>18031738I've always take these specific stories to be a morality taleHera is punishing for a "transgression" we all interpret it as punishing her but isn't it really a punishment for Zeus? I've always taken these stories as dont step out of your marriage, dont cheat and don't make bastards. Medusa was also "punnished" for being raped in a temple and was given the ability to turn men into stone. This feels a lot less like a normal punishment and more of a careful what you wish for curse gift (the best mace money can buy) like Minos got.
>>18032749>I've always taken these stories as dont step out of your marriage, dont cheat and don't make bastardsThe women are literally raped by zeus/jupiter in the stories, so this argument does not follow.
>>18031031Plato disliked the depiction of the Gods in Homer's writings and other greek myths. He preferred the idea of moral Gods, of Gods who punish sinners and reward people with good character and the noble lie. Christianity seems to be influenced by the noble lie.
>>18032776Im not saying the message is to look down on women I'm saying the message is to not fuck women and create dastardly or bad things will happen to everyone involved...Anon reading helps
>>18032830Then it is saying the gods are evil.
Statius’ Thebaid a Roman epic from the time of Domitian tells a story within a story about Apollo, told by the king of Argos at a dinner.Long ago, Apollo had killed a giant snake called the Python with his arrows. Apollo thereafter went to Argos, and raped the princess there. The princess, knowing she was doomed for having been raped, wandered and wandered, and eventually gave birth and left her baby in the wilds. Her baby, however, was eaten by feral dogs. When the princess found out about it, she could contain her secret no longer, and revealed her rape and secret to her father, the former King of Argos. Thereafter, the King of Argos killed her. Cheery story, just the sort of thing you’d want to tell your guests about the past history of your kingdom just after meeting them for the first time.The current King of Argos continued his story about Apollo’s malicious adventures. Apollo, said the King of Argos, decided to atone for his rape, and the death of his rape victim and their baby. The story of his atonement is depressing, and utterly nonsensical. Apollo created a gruesome monster. This monster crept into the chambers of nursing mothers, and it ate the babies of Argos. A hero named Coroebus, knowing about this terrible creature, marshaled some forces against it and drove his sword through its heart, killing the monster. But even the monster’s death could not quell the trauma at Argos. The citizens of Argos continued to be shocked and disoriented that such a creature had preyed upon them. And Apollo, for whatever reason, decided to start killing the citizens of Argos for protecting themselves against the baby-eating monster that he had created. The hero Coroebus, who’d slain the creature, presented himself to Apollo. He said the fault was his – take his life and spare the rest of Argos. And Apollo, showing clemency at last, said he’d let the hero Coroebus live.
