>>18037047
>And what that final note
saaaarrrrrr

>>18037051
thanks for visiting, have a good night

>>18037054
pleasing to be parsing the britisher into betterness next time saaar

>>18037047
we can't even take Greco-Roman sources as serious sources because there's a bias in everything, much of the garbage we have about the Celts comes from sources that sometimes treat them as noble savages and sometimes as gays, there was a lot of propaganda in all of this, but obviously the paganism of the continent is different from that of Scandinavia, which the Christiancucks wrote is also not a good source

>>18037060
I'm also well aware of this when I try to study mythology I try to use primary sources.

there's always an air of Roman confirmation bias in everything, when they don't treat them as Paleolithic beings because they're so primitive they treat them like those leftists from the 60s who masturbated to the myth of the good Amerindian savior in some accounts
Caear says that the Gauls were patriarchal while other authors say actually they supposedly offered their anus to visitors unfortunately they were not literate at that time.

>>18037047
to be fair, we COULD have written sources of Gaulish and Celtic history and customs without the Roman garbage in between if the bastards accepted writing when they had the chance the Greeks introduced it in their colonies in southern France and the Romans even asked why they didn't use the alphabet, the Gauls said it would make their minds weak and kill the oral tradition we could have first hand writings

>>18037047
saaaarrrr
you forgot to use the llm to post proper English saaaarrr

>>18037047
>Scholars also agree that Odin was likely a later development, around the Viking Age.
Got a source or any argumentation for that?

>The earliest reference to Odin dates back to the Age of Migration.
So earlier than the viking age

>Another problem I see, is with Tacitus, but when Tacitus wrote Germania there's wasn't an Odin, or Thor, or Freyja. Just Interpretatio Romana which most scholars still debate or admit they don't know what he means.
That's incorrect, Tacitus says the chief German god is Mercury and the academic consensus is that he means Odin. He also says Hercules is a popular god, and it's generally agreed he means Thor. The only mystery is his reference to worship of Isis, the most common proposals are Frejya or some other germanic goddess.

The problem with any "paganism" is that it is simply one's status as a hillbilly in the eyes of the now-extinct Roman empire. Its not a religion, and insinuating that it is would be like calling Appalachian moonshining a religion.
We should start referring to European folk religions as European folk religions, or referring to the cults of a specific god (Cocidius, Odin, etc.).

>>18037047
>Scholars also agree that Odin was likely a later development, around the Viking Age. The same is true of Valhalla, which emerged as a reaction to the Christian paradise.
There's no concensus about any of that.

>>18037374
The OP is correct, there is absolutely nothing like that prior to contacting Christiancuck, feel free to present the opposite
>>18037152
He doesn't mention Freya, Thor, or Mercury. Stop lying or post the chapters.
>Mercury
This is Roman interpretation.

>>18037047
>The earliest reference to Odin dates back to the Age of Migration.
I assume you’re referring to the Odin’s Man bracteate? The one from 400 AD? I think the fact that Odin is referred to by name and is depicted in exactly the same manner as he would be in texts created 800 years later clearly does not reveal a later inception of his figure. Unless you want to argue that the character of Odin in Germanic paganism emerged fully formed in the 400s.
>The same is true of Valhalla, which emerged as a reaction to the Christian paradise.
The concept of Valhalla isn’t that young. Volundarkvitha, the oldest poem in the codex regius, refers to it.
Valhalla also isn’t really anything like the Christian heaven, so it’s absurd to say that it was created in response to it. It’s like people who say that Baldr is Jesus and Voluspa is a pagan recreation of the book of revelation. That might be a fair reading of you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about. Men who go to Valhalla become minor gods (elves) by way of accumulating glory through successive cycles of death and reincarnation. It’s much more similar to Hinduism in practice.
>And what that final note that Oðinn drank semen? Someone could explain please?
It’s an idea proposed by a gay Jewish man who wants to look into history and comparative mythology and see nothing by other faggots like himself.
He somehow tries to connect the folklore concept of mandrakes growing in spots where semen leaks out of dead men’s penises to Odin. I have no idea. I read the footnote at one point and it made no sense to me. I could not for the life of me see the connective tissue between these two things.
It’s very much kind of presented like
>Odin drank jizz (see footnote 12)
>(footnote 12): some Christian Europeans believed there were these things called mandrakes which were created from the jizz of hanged men
if I recall correctly

>>18037567
What are you talking about in your first answer? It's not Odin or Thor in Tacitus
>Volundarkvitha
Written in the 13th century, "Vǫlundarkviða" was composed and influenced by traditions of the Norse diaspora in England. It's not as old or indigenous as you'd like to think, with origins dating back to the 10th or 11th century. The story is depicted on Christian artifact, by the way.
The manuscript marks line 4 as the beginning of a new stanza, and after line 4, an additional line has been suggested: "She was known for evil thoughts." On the other hand, line 1, identical to line 31 of stanza 17, may simply be an expansion of "Hogni spoke," and line 6 may have been introduced, with a slight variation, from line 5 of stanza 38. "Born again" appears to be a trace of Christian influence (the poem was composed well after the arrival of Christianity in Iceland).

>>18037567
It is obvious that Norse poems are strongly influenced by Christianity
and your examples were conveniently the worst possible, have you read THE POETIC EDDA? there is no Odin, Thor or Freya in Tacitus

>>18037911
larpgans are the worst posters

>>18037047
You didn't mention human sacrifices. Reports from ancient travelers to northern Europe describe human sacrifices being made to Odin

>>18037911
>What are you talking about in your first answer?
This
https://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/66692
>It's not as old or indigenous as you'd like to think
The story is at least from the 500s, leaving aside the question of when exactly the poem itself was composed
>The manuscript marks line 4 as the beginning of a new stanza, and after line 4, an additional line has been suggested: "She was known for evil thoughts." On the other hand, line 1, identical to line 31 of stanza 17, may simply be an expansion of "Hogni spoke," and line 6 may have been introduced, with a slight variation, from line 5 of stanza 38. "Born again" appears to be a trace of Christian influence (the poem was composed well after the arrival of Christianity in Iceland).
What is any of this shit in reference to?

>>18037914
Show me the Christian influence

>>18037927
>Reports from ancient travelers
Which ones? This is obviously not true. The earliest sources that mention Odin are medieval. Tacitus mentions that Germans had capital punishment (but so did the Romans, via coliseum and crucifixions and more).

The oldest source I know of that mentions Odin are the vellums and Bede who says that Odin was the ancestor of the Germanic dynasties of the various tribes.

>>18037938
His logic goes that Germanics and Latins converted to Christianity later on, therefore they are "Christian" languages, and retroactively applies that religious culture to the culture as a whole.

Neopagan obscurantism is an intended feature and not a bug

>>18037567
>>18037152
What do you think is a consensus? You're using Birley's interpretation as definitive fact. But it's not accepted in academia. One of the explanations he mentions is that
>Among the gods, Mercury is the one they primarily worship.
But this is relatively vague; it's reduced to being gods associated with travel, magic, language, and knowledge. But other gods also possess these same qualities, and Tacitus literally adds that a portion of the Suebi also venerate "Isis." Have you researched Egyptian mythology and the later stories of Freya? It's so different that if she weren't the goddess of magic, motherhood, and healing, she could be any goddess. Birley's argument is quite vague, and one thing you conveniently ignore is that Birley himself says in his book that the identification with Mercury is made by a much later Mercury, practically not from classical mythology.
Another problem is that when you cling to Birley's interpretation of the "Nordic Mercury" being Odin, you leave out something very important that the same author barely mentions: Tacitus' own quote about Mercury is a direct reference to Caesar, who originally referred to the Gauls, not the Germans. But now you're going to say that the Gauls and Germans followed the same religion?

>>18037958
Are you projecting? All of the false claims made in this thread so far are from the anti-pagan perspective.

>>18037946
What? Isn't Mercury Odin? That's what Tacitus says.

>>18037946
There is no source that attests to Odin before the Age of Migrations

>>18037961
I'm anti-pagan and anti-obscurantist
It is my experience that the more earnest the pagan, the more they see the religion as a means to a political end and therefore lean into the mystery inherent in reconstructing what's lost. Its a canvas to insert their own ideas.
This is the same problem in liberal Christianity but from the opposite perspective and with different methods. The liberal Christian invents hermeneutical methods to interpret an unchanging text.

>>18037938
>She was known for her evil thoughts.
>"Born again"
are traces of Christian influence, since the poem was composed well after the arrival of Christianity in Iceland.
Brynhild killed herself; she could not be "born again" (cf. concluding prose of Helgakvitha Hundingsbana II).
If it was difficult,
this expression "born again" suggests Christian influence, implying a belief in life after death, contradicting the idea that Brynhild could not be reborn after death.

The poem is generally dated to the late 11th century, and the final stanza reveals Christian influence almost unmistakably. I'm so sorry.
How do you explain the delayed confusion of traditions present in all the later poems? The 11th-century poem shows Christian influence and mixes tradition

If you study stanza carefully, you will be able to that the ordeal by boiling water was a foreign practice, introduced with Christianity around the year 1000, and that a Christian king was required to consecrate the cauldron.

>>18037934
>treasure bracteate
>The Vadstena bracteate (Rundata Ög 178, IK 377.1) is a gold C-bracteate found in the ground at Vadstena, Sweden, 1774
>1774
Very late to be useful

>>18037960
in fact most of what tacitus wrote were copies of what others wrote

>>18037987
>The poem is generally dated to the late 11th century
Which poem you fucking sped? Helreith Brynhildar?
You just started parsing a poem without telling me what point of mine you’re responding to or even which poem you’re parsing and why.
>>18037994
>Very late to be useful
What does this even mean

>>18038000
That's exactly why I said Birley's quote is complicated. It wasn't even a direct attestation from him, but from Caesar, and secondly, it was for the Celts, probably due to the similarity between the two. But the most problematic is that they are referring to a later Mercury who has little or nothing to do with being the leader of the pantheon, or the warrior qualities of Odin, or even magic and poetry

>>18038011
Calm down princess, are you mad? You mentioned a trashy amateur blog and you can't demand too much from others. I know it hurts, but if you asked me please, I could help you.
See Guthrunarkvitha and Brynhild's Hell-Ride

>>18038011
It means that you cited an artifact later than Tacitus himself with Roman influence

>>18038021
Obviously you’re discussing the Sigurd Lays by bringing up Hogni, but there’s 15 different poems in the Volsungs section of the Codex Regius, so I need to know exactly which poem’s language you are attempting to parse and what point you intend to prove in so doing.

>>18038011
>>18038039
You said show me the christian influence and he did. Whatever your position may be stop being a whiney faggot. It's repulsive and niggerlike.

>>18038038
What does Tacitus have to do with anything? Odin as a chthonic deity who “possesses” the dead dates back to AT LEAST the 4th century AD. This definitively counters OP’s position that Odin is a Viking age invention

>>18038049
Oh yeah, well stanza 14 proves you wrong. And stanza 69, too.
Stanza 14 and 69 of which of 15 possible poems? What a niggerlike question.

The Norse gods were actually just the Roman gods that Scandinavian traders brought back with them and localized.

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>>18038039
Do you want me to show you a picture of the pages? You lazy bastard, I can cite the pages and you can read for yourself.
This article offers the appropriate footnotes available, you can check them out. 4chan thinks its spam
and since I know how your guys works, remember that you posted a blog here>>18037934

>>18038079
kind of true, actually they were only worshiped for about 400 years in total

>>18038049
Don't the pagans have honor? Why are you pretending to be me?

>>18038065
Im not that anon, I just think you sound like a butthurt britfag.

>>18038065
This idiot is you talking to yourself to make me look retarded, but the only retarded ones apparently are you and your friend.

>She was known for her evil thoughts. line 1 identical to line 31 of stanza 17 and line 6 is an introduction with a slight variation of line 5 of stanza 38 shows Christian influence, line 6 may have been adapted from stanza 38.

>>18037047
neopaganism is clearly a larp, it don't need these kind of posts to prove it however.

>>18038079
not necessarily, but thor, odin and freya are not mentioned until the time of the great migrations

>>18037964
Where does it say that human sacrifice is part of any of it?

>>18037967
The medieval sources put Odin in the time of the migrations. Heimskringla says specifically that it's during the time that Romans were rampaging around, probably the time of Trajan or so. Heimskringla does not say its source, so there must be a common source other than Bede because Bede comes earlier but does not specify the period like that. Whatever common source there was is either lost or in the Vatican.

>>18038082
>cf. concluding prose to Helgakvitha Hundingsbana II
lol
>Cites to a translator with a pet theory of Christian influence on Norse poetry
>The translator directly cops to existence of a poem that completely debunks his pet theory
>translator still decides to advance the theory
>retarded anon on the internet still decides to cite to theory despite it being self-disproving
Shameful, really

>>18038119
They're all varying names of the same indo european gods. Thor's horsenigger origin is probably a rain god, Sif was added later for flavor

>>18038113
>At an appointed time all tribes meet ….. in a forest consecrated by their ancestors, surrounded by fear, sacred from the dawn of time. There, on behalf of those assembled, they celebrate the commencement of their barbaric cult with a human sacrifice

see page 39, it's there, you can read it.
and as I saw that your reply to the other anon is that the translation is invalid, it's something here you can see that the Latin word used is
>omnes ejusdem sanguinis populi legationibus coeunt, caesoque publice homine celebrant barbari ritus horrenda primordia

>>18038122
This wasn't an argument.
1) You asked what the Christian influence was.
2) I presented it, including the lines.
3) You didn't even make the effort to read them and try to interpret them.
4) The answer is mocking.
5) You mention "hidden in the Vatican" or something like that.
It's really a shame. I'll take that with a grain of salt. I'm done here. You lost.

>>18038119
Stop being a scoundrel, there are no pre-migration sources, you must show us. The burden is on you.

>>18038158
he or she didn't even answered it was just mockery and circular attempts to try to throw Odin into pre-migration, but I'm waiting for him to show evidence of that, so far nothing

>>18038145
>Human sacrifice
>Egalitarianism
>No Odin
>No Thor
>No Freya
Like, they chose the worst religion to larp

>>18038145
>Of the gods, Mercury 62 is the principal object of their adoration; whom, on certain days, 63 they think it lawful to propitiate even with human victims.

I think this is maybe whatever else you were referring to. We don't really know which religion this is. You're making the mistake of taking Roman syncretism and applying it to all Germans everywhere. We don't know if they had all the same Gods, we don't know if Odin was intended by this or just a happenstance synchronicity. The most major God is Tuisto. Meanwhile we have to contend with euhemerizing accounts. It could have been that Odin was a man that was later deified by authors. It's too many logical leaps to say that Odin involved sacrifice of any kind, or even worship of any kind during the period.

The major problem I have is that Bede lays out a set of family members that puts Odin sometime between the 2nd and 4th century AD depending on how long each generation is, but Tacitus is writing in the 1st century. The person of Odin probably is not what Tacitus is referring to since he was born earlier than historical Odin.

>>18038163
>there are no pre-migration sources
We have already gone over this- the medieval sources are the earliest we have and they claim knowledge of the migrational period. Are you trying to disprove Germans existed in order to prove Slavs existed?

>>18038158
I can’t read them in context because you won’t tell me what poem you’re excerpting. But in any event, based on the notes you provided, the translator whose edition you’re reading from argues that Brynhildar cannot be born again (in the Christian sense of being born again into eternal life in heaven) because of suicide (a Christian sin) (or at least this is my interpretation of the argument because I am still utterly lacking context).
The translator then uses a cf. cite to the prose closing of Helgakvitha Hundingsbana II. Cf. cites are what you use to reference contradictory authority. And indeed Helgakvitha Hundingsbana II is completely contradictory. It explains that to be born again in a pagan sense is to be reincarnated in this world. It is a literal state of being born another time, not a metaphorical birth where you are purified and ascend to heaven.
>5) You mention "hidden in the Vatican" or something like that.
What in the absolute fuck are you talking about. This thread is making me feel like I’m on crazy pills

>>18038181
>We don't really know which religion this is
therefore, we can discard 90% of your posts
>You
I don't. Tacitus wrote, "These are not my interpretations." Again, the only argument that Odin was older than the Age of Migrations was due to the claim that he is similar to Mercury, but then this argument is not valid because
> syncretism
So this necessarily rules out the only evidence that Odin is older than the Age of Migrations
>The most major God is Tuisto
Tacitus never states this. It is said that "Mannus" is the only son Tuisto had. And according to Tacitus in his book, Mannus had three sons.
>It could have been that Odin was a man that was later deified by authors
what does this have to do with it?
why are you so reluctant about human sacrifices?

>>18038192
>I can’t read them in context because you won’t tell me what poem you’re excerpting
It's been presented before. You simply don't want to read it or are in a state of reluctance, and your answers were not only bizarre, but even conspiracy theorists. The lines and the name of each poem were cited, if you're not going to read it, don't answer me anymore. And you couldn't argue because it's not Christian influence

>>18038184
>We have already gone over this- the medieval sources are the earliest we have and they claim knowledge of the migrational period.
exactly, your odin is a recent creation and did not exist at the time in the ancient world until proven otherwise, you did not do it and my challenge stands, I doubt it
>>18038192
It is well known that there is Christian influence in these poems

>>18038195
>therefore, we can discard 90% of your posts
You're talking to multiple people I think. I'm only here to say that Odin was likely a real person who was deified by later accounts.
>I don't. Tacitus wrote
You're interpreting him either way, since he never mentions Odin and you're the one connecting Odin to Mercury yourself. Now you've done your job of proving human sacrifice, but we don't know to which entity.
>the only argument that Odin was older than the Age of Migrations
I have explicitly argued that Odin comes from the period of around the 2nd to 4th centuries AD. Which migrations are you referring to? Surely the Gothic, which began probably around the 3rd century according to the Historia Augusta's accounts of wars with Goths and Alani both in Gaul and throughout the Balkans.

>Tacitus never states this. It is said that "Mannus" is the only son Tuisto had
You're right he does not- that's my interpretation. If you're the son of the highest God that makes you the next in line for big dog. Mannus seems to be to be related to the billion other Manus archetypes from ancient Egypt to Turkey to Manu in India. He's the actual universal Abraham type for all non-Abrahamics.

>>18038197
Why are you so afraid of the prose closing of Helgakvitha Hundingsbana II?
I’ve brought up how it debunks you twice and you don’t even mention it.

>>18038200
Odin is not a creation, but referential to a man, a living figure. Human sacrifices could not have been made to him since he's not even from the period of Tacitus.
>It is well known
Headcanon. You have zero arguments, you don't know the poetry, and it's well known that Christian influence for rewrites and edits came out in two spells between the 8th century and again later in the 11th century.

>>18038205
How can you be taken seriously if your answers are based on pure semantics? Snorri was a Christian who wrote the Edda in 1300, and the changes to the original stories are unknown. This is a fact, so your attempt to use the Edda as a kind of pagan handbook is not only unhistorical but shameful. Read Sophus Bugge, since his argument about translation is a cop-out used ad nauseam here. one in which the Edda was written. He categorically states that there was indeed a Christian substrate and that none of the Edda's poems can be dated before the 9th century. The Christian Latin influence is so visible that there are many borrowings from Latin, Anglo-Saxon, and Irish. the Norwegian A. Chr. Bang, the Icelander G. Vigfusson, and the German E. H. Meyer agree with Bugge
>afraid
What are you talking about, lunatic? What does the ending have to do with it? Did anyone say the poems were direct copies of verses from the Bible? The fact that there are clear allusions to Christianity, such as the story of Brynhild, or the stanza verses, is nothing more than evident that it was not an unaltered pagan tradition.

>>18038207

Who mentioned Cuckdin? Do you have this schizophrenic habit of changing the subject and putting words in people's mouths due to a lack of mental illness, or is it a tactic you learned in the STJ course? You barked about human sacrifice among the Germanic people, you were refuted, and it was shown here.
So your answer is that this is invalid because Cuckdin was a real man? What does that have to do with it? Whether she was a man or not, this **DOES NOT*** change the fact that there was human sacrifice.

>>18038231
*lack
I meant lack of reasoning and mental illness
But we already have the answer. All you could do in this thread was say that Odin was a real guy

>>18038231
To be fair, you thought I was complaining about human sacrifice charges, but I was really complaining about Odin's historical personage. For the record, STJ despises euhemerization of Odin. He'd go off on me harder than you tried to. In fact...

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>>18037047
yes, I see, a lot of problems with ancestral european culture, not so many problems with ancestral jewish one apparently

>>18038228
in fact, the Vatican hides the TRUE edda that says that 1000% Yamnaya R1B Aryans were Semitic killers and everything is there

>>18038261
Blame the international rootless cosmopolitan Christoid

>>18037047
>I am not a Christian
Ok, so you are a christian and a fed.
This is just another christ-tard fedpost with the same exact features over and over again from weird people with infinite time regurgitating the same crap who are never ever banned.
Yep, that's great fed OP.
The ultimate conclusion OP will come to is that you must become Christian.
>Odin was likely a later development, around the Viking Age
OP can't even get a basic historical facts right about anything. Typical fed christ-tard shit.
The Vindelev Hoard is dated to the 400's AD and undisputedly portrays and names Odin.
The Viking Age was from 800 to 1100 AD roughly.
>>18038261
>yes, I see, a lot of problems with ancestral european culture, not so many problems with ancestral jewish one apparently
Lol, exactly. It's so transparent.

>>18038275
>The Viking Age was from 800 to 1100 AD roughly.
I also came here to complain about this. Germanic culture was already doing everything you're assigning to the Vikings back in the 4th century AD. Gildas writes about the landings of Germanics and they're basically already acting like Vikings at that point.

>>18038228
Snorri wrote the Prose Edda. Helgakvitha Hundingsbana II comes from the Codex Regius manuscript you absolute retard lmao. Now address Helgakvitha Hundingsbana II already.

>>18038228
Me again
I decided to expand on my comment:
as I had proven, there is not only a Christian substratum in the Edda's, but also a Christian structure..
Scholars such as Clunies Ross, Byock, and Lindow attribute the Prose Edda to Snorri Sturluson, with Boulhosa stating that his authorship is
>'considered certain and incontestable.
The Prosaic Edda is composed of four parts: the Prologue, which presents the Christian view of creation; Gylfaginning, with stories from Norse mythology; Skáldskaparmál, on the origin of poetry; and Háttatal, with metrical forms of scalar poetry It is unlikely that Snorri's material presented a pure view of his ancestors' beliefs, due to the temporal distance of at least four generations, if you believe otherwise, I'm sorry, but you are a complete idiot Religion in Scandinavia at that time was by no means systematically coherent or unified by a common standard like Christianity.

>>18038308
See here>>18038308
I'm sorry, but you're not only wrong, you're ignorant

>Almáttigr guð skapaði himin ok jǫrð ok alla þá hluti er þeim fylgja, síðarst menn tvá er ættir eru frá komnar, Adam ok Evu, ok fjǫlgaðisk þeira kynslóð ok dreifðisk um heim allan (Faulkes, 2005: 3)”
.
>Almighty god created heaven and earth and all the things that belong to them, and later two men from which the families are come, Adam and Eve, and their descendants multiplied and spread all over the world

>religion isn’t real unless it’s origins can be traced to a date I arbitrarily decide is sufficient
>every single religion on earth isn’t syncretic, mixing in outside modes of thought

>>18038297
idiot, the work does not have an original title that identifies it. the popular name of the Codex Regius ("Poetic Edda") originated nothing more than as a deliberate way of differentiating it from the Edda the "Prose Edda" by Snorri .

>>18038308
Oh, and I'd also like to point out that the stories collected by Snorri do not reflect a "pagan reality," because that "pagan reality" if larpgans reduce multiplicity to a singularity, you'll only get a static result.
You don't realize it, but this is, ironically, an artificial attempt to view the ancient faith through a Christian lens.
As they became more familiar with Christian doctrine, they incorporated some of its elements into their traditional stories as they passed them on. This was the case in Ireland, for example.
Snorri invented some parts of his stories. According to Faulkes
>There is no reason to believe, however, that everything in Gylfaginning is
derived from ancient tradition
Its over

>>18038322
Not happened

>>18038333
Happened.
All that's left is for you to bark like a woman, accuse me of being the OP, and of course, Sameflag. Is that all you can do? Christianity also had an impact on the Prosaic Edda. I'll ask again: have you read it? The author's view of the material he writes about. All the sources are merely a diffuse conjunction of stories fitting together, once again applying a unifying and centralizing Christian vision to scattered ancient oral material. The most respected authors in this field agree. The Prosaic Edda is merely a final product assembled from Christian, pre-Christian, and authorial elements. Accept that, anon.
And why do you mention Iceland so much as if that somehow saved you? In writing, the native language was adapted to the new Latin alphabet. Or are you going to deny that?
Christianity had a solid cultural and religious impact on Iceland. What you're thinking with your feeble mind is probably political influence. That's what Latin generally accompanied, it was scarce.

>>18038337
Iceland did not have much contact with the Latin continent, but that is different from saying that it was isolated. The problem with e-pagans is that they treat Germanic "paganism" as a uniform. It is quite possible that Thor is a late invention.

>>18038343
That's exactly what I'm talking about. First, he quotes the poems without having any knowledge of paleography and apparently doesn't understand that the Poetic Edda manuscript was written entirely by a single author in Iceland in the mid-13th century. Iceland wasn't a land of pagan last resistance or anything like that, this would be the Baltic, and even so, what do we have about Baltic mythology anyway? Yeah, you see.

>>18038079
There was no Germanic, Greek, Celtic, or Baltic "paganism." Comparing the collected material we have in the Baltic or Snorri's Edda, we see a clear discrepancy between the strong presence of the god Ullr and, probably, his cult, especially in Sweden, and his practically non-existent importance in Snorri's mythography. I don't think he's even mentioned there; each tribe and clan had its own rites and interpretationsbThe influence of this god, worshipped most strongly in eastern Scandinavia, apparently didn't reach the ears of the author, who resided in the west.

Perhaps Odin is a case in point? Given the enormous variation in practices, cults, and beliefs throughout Scandinavia, it's unreasonable to expect a uniform portrayal of a supposed pagan religion. That's why I despise neopaganism. There's no precise pagan past. The term "pagan" itself, in the singular, denotes an imprecision, a biased view influenced by the Christian view of things, as there is no single pagan past. what existed in Scandinavia was a multitude of beliefs and cults with some similarities

>>18038363
That must have explained it?

>>18038366
seeing people's comments here, yes
this is all a big scam

>>18038370
I wouldn't say it's a farce, just a lack of reading

>>18038363
maybe it wasn't uniform, but it certainly derived from a common root and there were similarities, god x or y being more common in region A or B is not surprising

>>18037047
>Scholars also agree that Odin was likely a later development, around the Viking Age. The same is true of Valhalla, which emerged as a reaction to the Christian paradise.
This is not something that is concrete or agreed on.
Odin is mentioned in literally our oldest Germanic runes, "He is Odin's Man". If that doesn't suggest that he was an old god and him being important was a very old idea, then what better evidence do you have to contradict this?
As for Valhalla being young, really there's no reason to think that in particular. Atlakvida uses Valhalla as a grim reference at the start of a poem about a King who is going to be killed violently at the end of the saga.
>2. Drukku þar dróttmegir, en dyljendr þögðu,
>vín í valhöllu, vreiði sásk þeir Húna;
>kallaði þá Knéfröðr kaldri röddu,
>seggr inn suðræni sat hann á bekk háum:
Describing a setting of a number of men waiting for a message from Atilla the Hun (a major figure in Norse heroic sagas)
Atlakvida is one of our older Norse poems, and the reference here suggests that Valhalla was an old concept. Enough that people would understand the reference used in the poem and it would prime them for the type of tragedy they were going to read.

I do think that regardless of the above, reconstructing ancient Norse practice is going to be impossible.
The myths we have are not descriptive regarding actual religious practice. They don't talk about what rituals were done in temples (we only have that in a scattered form in vague references from Christian writers). How people mainly attempted to appeal to the gods regarding day to day needs. Or what the view of the Gods as being literally real or figurative representations or something else entirely was generally held.
We don't have an actual religion to build off from. We have some bones in a series of stories that mainly were chosen for providing the most 'backstory' rather than representing the most religiously informative stories.

File: dirle antifa.jpg (126 KB, 1080x1026)

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>weyland or his father was born from womand and sea monster
Just like Väinämöinen/Ilmarinen in some stories
>In some stories weyland learnt his skills from mimir
>His son went to kallava to learn smithing
In some Finnic poems Kaleva guards well or spring where witches and seers are drinking from
>Both lose their wife
Both make treasure that make riches from thin air
>Both make wings to escape
Or väinämöinen/ilmarinen to fetch giant pike from river of underworld
>Vollundr kills some of the sons of his captor
Väinämöinen/Ilmarinen gets a wife or has to leave empty handed.
Returns to kill some of the sons and steal a wife.

I think it is very likely that Finnic mythos have been influenced or have influenced germanic mythos.

There also appears to be Valhalla analogue in Finno-ugric mythos.
People who die violently get to heaven.
Northern lights are those men fighting.
Warriors walk great oak to pohjola/päivölä.
Some poems tell that Väinämöinen is the master of hall where mead and beer are drunk and warriors clothes are dripping blood.
Great ox is slaughtered to feed the guests.
Same hall where Lemminkäinen demands mead to drink and insults people badly enough. That he has to hide in form of otter, salmon and trees and being hunted by nets that turn bittoms of waters. Or just being chopped to pieces and thrown to river
>Kalevala does not read like that
SKVR
A lot of this might be wild interpretation of uneducated mind.

Reading the thread, I can summarize my opinions on this. This topic makes everyone very anxious and... You should try harder when you do sameflaging, you write the same way and you don't fool anyone.

~It's true that later Germanic gods like Thor and Freya are not mentioned by Tacitus, but I believe that this does not necessarily imply that they did not exist. But without evidence for this, it's difficult to say anything. The interpretation that Odin was the Roman Mercury doesn't make much sense, as the other anon said, because they were actually talking about the Gauls.

~the Edda is indeed Christianized and has extreme Christian concepts, but I think it's intellectual dishonesty to deny the value of this work, because even if it's not a book by Mallory, it's useful for to understand Germanic myths, even if they do not represent paganism itself, we must keep in mind that in Snorri's time, although writing already existed and was used by the elites and the tradition was already well Christianized, the oral tradition was not dead and survived well enough to be written down; the myths were Christianized, not eradicated

~and I don't think Odin is a human or a recent entity, his name have archaic etymology

>>18038082
>>18037987
Other than the words of the translator, why do you think this conclusively demonstrates Christian influence?
Be specific. Without referencing the words of someone that didn't do any analysis themselves other than just stating something.

>>18038228
>and the changes to the original stories are unknown
The Prose Edda is not used as a totally factual source because of this.
You're not revealing anything novel. People have long considered Snorri's interpretations of Norse myth to be questionable in veracity, but useful in providing context that we'd otherwise not have.
The Poetic Edda on the other hand consistently has archaic language throughout and sentence/rhyme structure that makes far more sense in the Norse language spoken before significant Christian contact than afterwards. Meaning that what we have is likely a faithful reproduction of what came before, rather than being editorialized.

>>18037047
It doesn't matter if ancient germanic paganism can't be fully reconstructed without bias. Religions change after time. Religions are shaped by the times and by the life circumstances of their followers. If ancient germanic paganism has survived somewhere it wouldn't be the same as it was 1500 years ago.

>>18038437
>The Prose Edda is not used as a totally factual source because of this
You not only agreed with me but you didn't read or pretended not to understand what I had already said before>>18038337

Good to know you backtracked and are honest enough to admit it.

>>18038429
>why do you think this conclusively demonstrates Christian influence
I don't think anything, my opinion or yours or your favorite guru's doesn't matter, I literally cited more than 4 authors in my posts. There is in fact Christian influence and Christian structure>>18038308

>>18038462
exactly, but the sources we have were either written by third parties and do not have much credibility (tacit) or are just syncretized compilations

>>18038406
Atlakviða (The Lay of Atli) is one of the heroic poems of the Poetic Edda, however the "pagan" value of Edda has already been discussed here in the thread. The idea that warriors go to Valhalla and others to Hel was recorded by Snorri Sturluson, a Christian who wrote after the decline of Norse religion, reflecting the Christian influence on the transmission of pagan myths.
Even *if* the idea wasn't invented by Christians, later conceptions of Valhalla were certainly influenced by it, and this includes the afterlife for the most part. The ordered, hierarchical view of Valhalla that people today often believe in is a post-Middle Ages construction of Snorri and simply doesn't exist in the ancient sources Snorri literally copied Christian writings when he claims about a "third heaven" populated by light elves.

>>18038482
The Prose Edda has nothing to do with those poems.

>>18038516
The idea of Valhalla is similar to the greek Elysium.

>>18038516
Valhalla was not a paradise for the Germanic people, it never was.

>>18038475
I don't agree with you, because my post did not end after the first line.
You don't acknowledge that we have two Eddas, one of which has maintained the dialect spoken by Norse hundreds of years in the past, in the copies that we have. This makes it very probable that the content of those poems has been mostly maintained as well.

No one has ever used Snorri's Edda as the be-all and end-all of what we know or think about Norse mythology.
It has always been used as a companion piece to the Poetic Edda and other collections of Pre-Christian Norse poetry.
This is because Snorri knew poems and sagas that we've now lost and he references or quotes from them. So while he was clearly biased, he was also much closer to the source material that we want and is invaluable because of that.

>>18038516
Snorri didn't write the Poetic Edda, so his opinions are irrelevant here. He had no influence over the work. Nor do we have evidence that later scribes significantly censored or altered the writings.

>>18038535
I said it was? Do you really know how to read? I'm saying that if the concept and all nine kingdoms existed since pre-Christian times, they were definitely not as Snorri claims
>nothing to do
the information we have about Valhalla comes from Snorri's interpretations. even the "poem" you cited, stop pretending to be stupid
>>18038524
Elysium is where you can feel eternal peace forever, a sense of satisfaction, a place of "rest", it's not like Valhalla.

>>18038536
>No one has ever used Snorri's Edda as the be-all and end-all of what we know or think about Norse mythology.
In fact, they do. The most renowned sources in the field not only use it, but also contemplate it. Clunies Ross (1987) and Faulkes (2005) define the Prosaic Edda as a treatise that combines a mythographic and historiographical investigation of ancient "pagan" religion and an ars poetica manual on scalar technique.

See Faulkes (1995 [translation]: xii), “
>oral poetry, which from Viking times and perhaps earlier had been Scandinavian culture’s principal means of expression and preservation, was being rapidly supplanted in this function by written prose

>>18038540
If it's difficult for you to understand, Snorri's writings are of utmost importance and used by scholars, not only because he was the author but also because he compiled it. This argument is pathetic, and stop repeating the same things. Snorri Sturluson is accepted as the author of the Prosaic Edda. I'm really sorry. We have several authors who agree with this statement. Clunies Ross, Byock Lindow, Faulkes, and even Moosbrugger, with his sometimes somewhat larpagan tendencies, so to speak, naturally cite Snorri as the author of the work. See Boulhosa:
>Snorri Sturluson's authorship is currently considered certain and indisputable.

>>18038562
Contemplating it is not the same as considering it our best source on Norse religious beliefs.
It is valuable as a historical document that represents what an educated and theologically enthusiastic scholar thought about the just dead religion of a few generations back. And it gives us a glimpse into the secularization of Norse culture that was happening in the time, such that later Christian writers could use references to Norse gods and spirits in their later sagas without crossing into blasphemy.

What the Prose Edda isn't, is a representation of pre-conversion religious thought.
No one thinks that it is. No one acts like it is. The best Norse scholar of our age, Anatoly Liberman, is very careful about referencing it Snorri, and only using his work when we have direct pre-Snorri evidence for his statements. This is typical and standard. Snorri is used to back up what we have already a gist about from the standard pre-Christian poems, rather than as a source for ideas that we don't see evidence for elsewhere.

>>18038567
Are you aware that there are two different texts that are called Edda?

>>18038567
Larpagans colpsing that the most prominent source is from a Christiancuck author lmao

>>18038568
>What the Prose Edda isn't, is a representation of pre-conversion religious thought.
Did someone say it was? Did you read someone say that, or are you just putting words in my mouth again? Your friend has probably given up and started trolling Direct manifestations of the Christian religion were cited in the Prosaic Edda. I even cited several authors, more than five, and what I get in response is semantics and a lack of reading. Furthermore, there was an impact on the form and reason for its creation. It was never about ancient "paganism," but similar to what we see in Ireland, with ancient oral myths, rather than being thrown in the trash, undergoing a narrative Christianization, so that even "pre-Christian" stories would be somewhat downstream to the Christian world of the time. The unified view is part of the academic consensus.
The structure of the work, composed of a Gylfaginnin Prologue, Skáldskaparmál, and Háttatal, would be original to the first version of the treatise. Although there are indeed many discrepancies in the text of the manuscripts.

>>18038586
You realize you're talking to a bot when the answers aren't even part of the statement you said.
These guys are using chatgpt.

>>18038586
The problem for you here, is that we do have pre-Christian narratives without editorialization. You're referencing a problem that doesn't exist.
Snorri's work is an addendum to what we have, rather than a foundation.

Apparently you seem confused.
The Prose Edda was authored by Snorri. He also probably wrote Heimskringla, or at least was a peer of the man that wrote that.
The Poetic Edda is an entirely different document, that by forensic analysis, appears to authentically replicate the language and content of Norse speakers from a far older period of time. This is the primary source used when discussing Norse religion. Snorri had nothing to do with this. And by both the lack of obvious Christian references in the text, and the lack of obvious interpolations of language from the post-conversion period, the content of the Poetic Edda is authentic.

Its like you come from another dimension where Snorri is the only source for Norse religion that we have.
But the reality is that if you went to learn about Norse religion today, you'd be referred to reading the Poetic Edda first, and then only introduced to Snorri later.
You're referencing an issue with Christianization of all of our surviving documentation that doesn't exist based on a seeming misunderstanding about how many texts are called 'Edda'.

>>18038595
I'm losing patience with this shit, for an hour now I've been trying to be formal and post authors for all my allegations, and there's just trolling and a lack of effort to understand. I hate arrogance, see, I'm an amateur at all of this and I still have a lot to learn, but I don't need to be mocking people and pretend to be insane with statements that academia dismisses, even Wikipedia makes such information available.

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German source from the 9th century mentioning Odin, Frigg and Balder

Eiris sazun idisi sazunheraduoder suma
hapt heptidun sumaherilezidun sumaclu
bodun umbicuonio uuidi insprinc hapt
bandun inuar uigandun· H·

Once sat women,
They sat here, then there.
Some fastened bonds,
Some impeded an army,
Some unraveled fetters:

Escape the bonds,
flee the enemy

Phol endeuuodan uuorun ziholza du uuart
demobalderes uolon sinuuoz birenkict
thubiguolen sinhtgunt · sunnaerasuister
thubiguolen friia uolla erasuister thu
biguolen uuodan sohe uuolaconda
sosebenrenki sose bluotrenki soselidi
renki ben zibenabluot zibluoda
lid zigeliden sosegelimida sin.

Phol and Wodan were riding to the woods,
and the foot of Balder's foal was sprained
So Sinthgunt, Sunna's sister, conjured it;
and Frija, Volla's sister, conjured it;
and Wodan conjured it, as well he could:
Like bone-sprain, so blood-sprain,
so joint-sprain:
Bone to bone, blood to blood,
joints to joints, so may they be glued.

>>18038602
>The problem for you here

There's no problem here. You basically didn't answer anything, and I didn't provide any source other than a blog and semantics. First, you denied that Odin and Thor weren't in Tacitus, but that's already been explained. Then you went on to claim Odin is a real deity. It was you who first cited the Edda, not me. Remember that.
>Snorri's work is an addendum to what we have, rather than a foundation.
I've already answered this here>>18038562
and here>>18038567
your premise is not only wrong, but ignorant, because before him there was no longer a "pagan tradition", it's the best we have because it's a compilation.
interpretation approaches the term as a formal decree designating Christianity as the only official and legal religion. In this sense, it would be possible to consider the decision of the reciter of the law, even before Edda, since the conversion occurred before.
Again:
>There is no reason to believe, however, that everything in Gylfaginning is derived from ancient tradition, whether oral or written. Snorri was a Christian and had only a scholar’s and an artist’s interest in mythology; he was preserving it for antiquarian, not religious, reasons [...]. He would not have felt it wrong to depart from or expand his sources in Gylfaginning too if artistic or other considerations required it, and he
would probably not have felt inhibited from inventing new stories or drastically altering old ones if he saw fit.”

is that we do have pre-Christian narratives without editorialization. You're referencing a problem that doesn't exist.
Snorri's work is an addendum to what we have, rather than a foundation

Can you see? even BEFORE Snorri there was no "unified" paganism or text or tradition that he could draw upon, firstly because pagan poetry was not unified and secondly because there is no "original" text even when these myths
were part of the sphere of the sacred religion in Scandinavia at that time was not unified

>>18038638
So if you expect there to be an "original" Edda you're an idiot. There wasn't

>>18038635
Nice try, seriously, but the Merseburg show traditional alliteration, which is very good for linguistics, but also the end rhymes introduced in 9th-century Christian verse, And the language found is in High German. The problem is that they were written in the 10th century by a cleric, so the period goes from 901 to 1000, literally the last years of the Middle Ages—too recent to be useful in determining how old Odin is.

>>18038662
yup but I just posted it because I like OHG

>>18038665
I'm also envious of the Germanic languages, they're beautiful, I'm obsessed with Italian and French, which I consider ugly.

>>18038638
>and I didn't
And you**
sorry
but I really stopped here, it's not being useful, any response from you, I apologize but there will be no reply
>>18038672
This is not me. Are you pretending to be me?

>>18038638
>First, you denied that Odin and Thor weren't in Tacitus, but that's already been explained. Then you went on to claim Odin is a real deity. It was you who first cited the Edda, not me. Remember that.
That wasn't me.
Regardless the connections between Mercury and Odin are pretty strong if you understand them to be psychopomp mages who focus on guile over force to get what they want. I'm not going to argue that point, because it isn't my discussion. But the idea that there's a clear connection there is not a stretch when the Germanic pantheon appears to have always been small.
In fact, one of the reasons that we know that Snorri didn't have perfect knowledge is that he invents a lot of Goddesses based on kennings for known Goddesses (this appears to have been in order to 'balance' the pantheon by sex).

No one is calling the Poetic Edda some equivalent to the Silmarillion.
It is a collection of sagas and other poems that all came from different places and times by different original authors. With an obvious bias towards Icelandic religion. That is well known. No one says that it is comprehensive, or that it is without limitation. You are creating a strawman.
But what it does do, is give us an unadulterated, likely representative, window into the Norse myths that by all appearances avoided Christianization. This is like how one would reference Hesiod's Theogony for Greek myth, while knowing that Hesiod's work was one story among many that were told back then.

Most ancient religions had no single text that defined their canon. That is totally natural. Christianity was forced to adopt a canon when it spread over such a great distance and so many cultures that there started to be a breakdown in what Christianity was even about between the ends - Jews that thought Jesus was the Messiah but still followed the Torah on one and, and Gnostic Platonists that barely cared about Jesus as a man on the other end. The Norse religion never had this issue.

>>18038690
>Regardless the connections between Mercury and Odin are pretty strong
OMG stfu chatgpt christ-tard fed.
Absolute shit.
What a joke of a thread.

>>18038713
>OMG stfu chatgpt christ-tard fed.
Literally meaningless babble.
You've spent the entire thread with a seeming complete ignorance as to how people actually approach research into Germanic religion.
You spent the vast majority of the thread repeatedly talking about how Snorri is a Christian and that means we don't know anything about Norse religion before that point. While being totally ignorant that there was an entirely different Edda that people actually use as their main reference instead of Snorri's work.
Then once you seem to have learned about that for the first time, you say that the Poetic Edda isn't equivalent to the Bible (something no one claimed) and therefore wasn't useful for determining what people believed. A metric that when applied to literally any religion, even early Christianity, would mean that we just can't study any religion at all. Hell, you couldn't study Christianity today because different Bible translations contradict one another.

>>18038719
>Literally meaningless babble.
It's literally what you are.
You're a fed posting ChatGPT replies that don't make any sense and you're definitely a Christian.
>You've spent the entire thread with a seeming complete ignorance
I haven't been posting this whole thread you idiot.

There's no connection between Mercury and Odin.
You're replying to your own comments with more nonsensical shit.

>>18038761
>I haven't been posting this whole thread you idiot.
Fine. Then the other guy can take that part of the post and read it, because it was for him.

>Mercury and Odin
Like I said, this is not a discussion that I'm deeply interested in.
But the system of Interpretatio Romana was an inexact process and how the Romans related foreign gods to their own was messy and related to their perceptions of deities as fitting into cliches over anything else.
Tacitus's Germanic Mercury, is mysterious. But of all the Germanic Gods that we know of, Odin is pretty much the best fit. One could argue for a Loki relationship, but Loki was not widely worshipped as a God. Either one says that whomever Tacitus was talking about is lost or unknowable, or they say that Odin was probably the best option.

The whole notion that Odin drank cum was just humor inserted by scribes.

I find it funny how researchers have just decided to ignore every later mention of norse gods.
Most of those are fugged fragments.
Some saami thought that thor protects shamans while they travel dimensions.
Some Finnish poems ask Tuuri to protect them in war. There is also few heroic fragments I have found.
I doubt these can tell a lot about norse belief but these can tell a lot more about pagan belief.
In syncretic poems Finnish gods are angels or brothers of jesus, evil or outright replaced with jesus.

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>>18038200
All the branches of Germanic languages have the name derived from Wotanaz or are evidenced to have worshipped this god. Therefore the most recent possible date for this god to have been first worshipped is the point at which these languages diverged.

Proto-Germanic spoken from 500 BC had the name Wotanaz

Earliest attested inscriptions in writing are:
Wōđnas in 400s AD
wodinz in 600s AD


Double raven motif, explicitly referring to the god, becomes popular from Nydam art style phase of the 400s AD and develops and spreads across all Germanic regions.

East Germanic broke away 1st–2nd century BC
West Germanic broke away 1st–3rd centuries CE

So we can be certain the god existed with his current name at least 2000 years ago. The idea that he was invented is implausible because peoples don't just invent gods. Also the earliest sources all equate him with Mercury and no one ever says he is a human until the Christian period (Saxo in 1100's) when euhemerism becomes fashionable. Prior to this christ cucks call him a demon.

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>>18039477
It isn't in any ancient text as humour or anything else. It was invented by a gay j00

>>18038867
It is not at all ambiguous that Tacitus refers to Wotanaz when he says Mercury. 500 years later Jonas of Bobbio confirms this, writing of the Suebi:

Illi aiunt se Deo suo Vodano nomine, quem Mercurium, ut alii aiunt, autumant, velle litare.

"They say that they want to sacrifice to their god, called Wodan, whom, as others say, they call Mercurius."

Also Anglo-Saxon and Frankish authors directly equate Mercury with Woden so we know it refers to Him

>>18037047
>Another problem I see, is with Tacitu
The Germanii of Tacitus were Celts. It has nothing to do with Goths and Huns who came from China.

>>18039886
meds

>>18040156
You could a bit more constructive and point out that the Goths were a Germanic group.

>>18039876
Yeah he's got the physiognomy