In a scenario in which Germany wins ww2 how would they reorganize their territories? This topic has had me curious for some time now.
>>18037186They'd probably deport most of the polish population in the General Government into the Russian region then work towards colonizing and integrating it. A Belarusian and Ukrainian puppet state would he set up run by German aristocracy,the Crimean region/kherson region would be turned into a settler colony,the Moskowien region would be turned into a dumping grownd for undesirables,policies to encourage low birth rates will be encouraged. The baltics would colonized with settlers and annexed into Germany propper,I can definitely see the Estonians getting deported to Finland as an act of good will for the finish. The caucuses would be a series of puppet states that would exist for oil extraction. Thats my most realistic take on the eastern territories.
>Gotengauthe larping was really incredible
>>18037186Ostland would be the most germanised, but even that would be limited to the baltic states proper and ingria, belarus would be a source of labour but mostly german-free
>>18037186>>18037317Ukraine would be divided into german ruled and slav laboured latifundias, with german settlement being restricted to crimea, southern bend of the dniepr and some settlements going northward towards the border with Ostland
>>18037317>>18037323The rest would be nothing but a source of labour with some garrison towns here and there but little to no settlement, caucasus specifically was a complete basket case and germans were only there for the Baku oil fields, not settlement and probably not even slave labour
>>18037252The Estonians were the one people in the region they actually liked
>>18037186In the short term they'd focus mostly on building German farms and settlements in Ukraine while segregating themselves from the local population.In Ostland they'd go through the population trying to find who was racially German and who wasn't. Most likely they'd give up with Germanizing the Latvians and Lithuanians. Estonians would be Germanized and a system of German settlements would connect Estonia to East Prussia.Poland would be ignored until they would have the opportunity to ethnically cleanse it, in which case they'd probably outright deport all Poles to Moskowien.Moskowien itself would just be an anarchist free-for-all territory only loosely under German control
>>18037186Dude, the nazis wanted to make sure that the Germans ARE the actual master race - by literally destroying all their competition. They were murdering Jews (now you know why) and they were murdering Polish intelligentsia just in case for the same purpose. You may call it self-fulfilling prophecy (like gommies don't save their efforts do destroy "capitalism" just to fulfill Marx's "predictions" kek). It was supposed to be an Euro-Asiatic slavery plantation with Germans being the slavers, simple as. Btw, slavery is economically inefficient; it would have soon collapsed anyway. We don't have slavery anymore not because of our enlightened moral standards but because it's economically a backward system which cannot compete.
>>18037317>>18037329I’d argue the Germans would Germanize Crimea (as well as surrounding southern Ukraine) and Baku very quickly, the traditional region of Tauride, including not only Crimea but the lands directly north of it would be rapidly annexed as a full province of the reich. If they kept Black Sea Germans in Ukraine they might be able to populate the lands West of the Dnieper fairly quickly and make a direct land connection to the General Government. Who knows. Their plans for the brutalization and enslavement of the Slavs were pretty insane, who’s to say that they could hold in to those land even if they won
>>18037360True
>>18037360Dude this isn't an ideological discussion its a question of how exactly would they organize their territories post war. If a discussion like this is enough to have you frothing at the mouth in some preachy normie drivel then don't post in this thread at all. Thanks to the other anons for adding to the discussion.
>>18037252it would be a mess with party, army and corpo officials running fiefdoms
>>18037186Theyd go back to the imperial system of German leaders and a mixed population of laborers.>>18037355is there any precedent at all for ethnic cleansing?wartime is one thing where you have hostile populations, but given Germany's history in Eastern Europe, ethnic cleansing seems like the last thing theyd do.>NOOOO THEYRE HECKIN EVILplease, serious answers only.
>>18037252This is definitely in the cards. A brute force victory would allow Hitler to fulfill his more out-there goals, and this is realistic. What is undeniable is they would annex Western Poland, at least some of the Baltics, and establish client states. In the regions they annexed they would deport the "undesirable" elements. Hitler did speak in Table Talks about a Crimean colony, and German settler towns in European Russia (and not mingling or interfering with the "native population"). But there were also elements within Germany that advocated for less expansionist policies, e.g. the German "governor" of Ukraine.
>>18037584"They were evil" is a serious answer Jimmy. Some people are evil, they even often gain political power. Yourself you are own your way to become an evil adult, although political power rather isn't for you, kek. It's for _smart_ psychopaths which can adapt to the times.
>>18037186It would mostly be military districts and autonomies outside of the coastal Baltic and Crimea, as infrastructure would be in ruins and every place would be crawling with partisans. Places like the Caucasus and Northern Russia would be feudal, with local warlords allying with German generals and governors to extract rent from rival factions, with basically nothing making it back to Germany. The border around the Volga would be ill-garrisoned, and smuggling would be rife. Essentially anarchy with a few pockets of German authority in the middle connected by railways.
>>18037186Based on historical reality and existing evidence which provides an insight into the thinking of German planners regarding the occupied territories, we can come to the following conclusions: >Northern Europe>NorwayIt was always the intention of the PO to establish a collaborator republic in Norway and the process of meeting that objective was fairly smooth. By 1942, the Nasjonal Samling had assumed governmental responsibility, albeit under the auspice of the Reichskommissariat Norwegen. Indeed, were it not for military setbacks in Africa and on the Eastern Front that year, Reichskommissar Terboven was expected to be recalled to Germany and the Reichskommissariat dissolved, thereby establishing Norway as a nominally independent ally of the Reich under the NS. One can assume, in the case of a German victory, that final transition would have taken place without issue, with Quisling and the NS assuming full responsibility for Norwegian state affairs. The only Norwegian territory that Hitler had set aside for direct incorporation into Germany was the land selected as the construction site of the future naval base and German inhabited city of Nordstern (or New Trondheim depending on who you read).
>>18037681>DenmarkAs is known, Denmark’s position in German occupied Europe was quite unique until the events of 1943. They enjoyed an autonomy unheard of with all their institutions intact and left relatively undisturbed for a number of reasons, none of which pertain to the question. There is no reason to assume this relationship would change. Denmark would remain a nominally independent ally of the Reich though bound to Germany through a series of treaties designating its obligations to a number of Pan-European institutions such as the EEC, all of which would be headed by the Reich. Additionally, despite having every chance to do so, the Germans were highly reticent to make any alterations to the German-Danish border, despite Northern Schleswig having been a part of Wilhemine Germany, going so far as to reject the DSNAP’s petition to annex the territory.
>>18037648Not a serious answer.1. There is no "evil" in geopolitics.2. you dont even believe in evil, you dont even believe in God shut the fuck up about "evil".>you're evil for using evidenceDelulu.>you are le dumbreally got me.Anyway, just because you dont like them doesnt make them evil, furthermore historical precedent >>>>> uhhhh they were le cartoon villain.There is no precedent for genocide.besides, genocide isnt even evil, in a basic sense its more so apart of the human condition, it is not uncommon in history and every ethnic group has at varying points in their history been perpetrator and victim.From the evidence we have, Germany wasnt planning or carrying out a genocide in the event of a German victory. The most parsimonious explanation is they were going to redeploy the imperial system which had worked so well.genocide doesnt make sense for a country that wants to refurbish its old holdings, you dont genocide your labor force.
>>18037681>>18037682>Western Europe>NetherlandsThe situation in the Netherlands was a little more complicated. The question was always between annexation and collaboration with both sides being supported by various organizations within both Germany and the Netherlands. In Germany, the SS and Police Leaders championed the Pan-Germanic outlook wherein the Netherlands would be directly incorporated into the Reich and split into a number of Reichsgaue. For that reason, they supported the political efforts of the Dutch NSNAP (to little avail). The PO on the other hand, supported building a collaborator sister-republic under Mussert of the NSB. Much like Norway, Mussert was preparing to assume governmental responsibility over Dutch affairs in 1942 until military setbacks postposed any transfer of power that may have undermined German operations in Western Europe. In case of a German victory, the Netherlands fate is really a matter of who has more influence, the SS and their Pan-Germanic outlook, or the NSDAP and their plans to establish a collaborator republic.
>>18037692>annexation>collaborationDid NATO annex/puppet the Netherlands?
>>18037681>>18037682>>18037692>Western Europe>Belgium and Western FranceBelgium is somewhat more dubious because there existed little in the way of concrete post-war planning. Some suggested splitting Belgium into collaborator Flemish and Wallonian republics with Brussels being transformed into a special separate territory. Others suggested the wholesale annexation of Belgium, split along similar lines as the above, a Flemish, Wallonian and Brussels Reichsgau. What I can say is that annexationist trends towards Belgium were stronger than towards other countries, but again, little exists in the way of definitive evidence. Regarding Western France, proposals were put forth to annex territory roughly corresponding to the Pre-Westphalian borders of France and the HRE, demarcated at the so-called Fuehrer-Line. Joseph Goebbels noted in his diary that it was Germany’s historic mission to undo the Westphalian peace and SS lawyer and future Reich Plenipotentiary of Denmark, Werner Best, suggested a plan to settle a million German peasants in that territory. However, upon the prospect of achieving his ambitions in the East, Hitler seemed to have lost interest in that project and thousands of people were quick to return to their homes despite being nominally forbidden to do so otherwise. We know direct annexations in Western Europe took place (de jure or de facto) in Alsace-Moselle, Luxembourg, and Eupen-Malmedy. Whether the Germans pushed the Franco-German frontier further west or not rested purely upon Hitler’s inclinations, which, based on history, as I stated prior, leaned towards an abandonment of that goal.
>>18037697They've certainly not annexed it. Whether you think they've turned it into a puppet or not is entirely subjective and based on your own opinion of what constitutes a puppet state.
>>18037681>>18037682>>18037692>>18037699>Eastern EuropeThings get more interesting in Eastern Europe because the evidence is more concrete. Generalplan Ost (the fourth version in particular) is the blueprint I’d use to map German plans in the region. Basically, the plan called for the fulfilment of specific settlement objectives in specific areas of Eastern Europe split into five consecutive Five-Year Plans totalling 25 years. Over the course of 25 years, around 5.5 million Germans, Germanic peoples, and ‘Germanizable natives’ would be settled in three (or four if you ask Himmler) ‘settlement marks’ (Krim-Taurien, Ingermanland & the Memel-Narewgebiet) and 36 ‘settlement pearls’ which would be established along ‘settlement strings’ (major autobahn and breitspurbahn arteries). All of these settlement areas were behind the Leningrad-Bryansk-Crimea line. The primary goal was establishing a German ruling class that would hold dominion over all levers of economic and political control throughout the region to lord over the Slavs in perpetuity who would provide a large pool of cheap labour to be exploited for the benefit of the German mainland. Accordingly, to the plan, Germanization was assumed to be complete in the ‘marks’ when 50% of the population was German and the highest political and economic offices and energies were controlled by Germans. In the ‘pearls’ it was 25% and the same amount of economic and political control.
>>18037710>Eastern Europe>OstlandHimmler requested that a fifth ‘Complete Settlement Plan’ which included all areas of concern to Germany (Alsace-Moselle, Eupen-Malmedy, Luxembourg, the Slovene Triangle, the Protectorate, the General Governorate and the occupied Eastern territories) be drawn up to provide a comprehensive overview of all German settlement areas. In this plan, Himmler requested that the Baltic region also be included as a ‘settlement mark’. The intention, in the long run, was make extensive use of the large collaborator networks the Germans enjoyed in the Baltic to create native administrations within Ostland (with Riga holding a special position as an almost separate autonomous territory with a dual Latvian German administration as proposed by Rosenberg). In the meantime, Germanizable natives (mostly from Lativa and Estonia who were favoured over the Lithuanians) would be introduced to ‘Germandom’ and hopefully integrated by way of education (mostly indoctrination in universities). The Baltic people’s were also expected to assist in the de-Slavicization of certain territories. The Vilnius Strip would the Lithuanian living space to ‘de-Polonize’ and the Estonian and Latvians would help settle territories further east at the expense of the Russians (and with Baltic people’s settling eastward, Germans would be free to fill in the gaps on the coastline. This is why, in German planning for RK Ostland, the borders of Estonia and Latvia stretch much father eastward than the actual borders of the pre-war Latvian and Estonian republics.
>>18037710>>18037719>BelarusReichskommissar Lohse constantly bemoaned the fact that Belarussian land fell under his jurisdiction and many agreed it made little sense to group Belarus and the Baltics together. That is why in 1944, Belarus was detached from Ostland and directly subordinated to the Ostministerium as Generalbezirke Weissrussland. No direct German settlement of Belarus was planned (apart from the Bialystok district which was directly incorporated into Germany) and the Germans considered the Belarussian to be mostly harmless and somewhat witless (which wasn’t necessarily a bad thing for them). Ultimately, they also wanted the extended Belarussian collaborator to have two political centres, Minsk the traditional centre, and Smolensk (to weaken the Muscovites as per Rosenberg’s ‘wall around Muscovy’ strategy. Most likely, the region would be governed by the Belarussian Rada with a German overseer as it was during the war, with encouraged cultural policies to break away Belarussians from the larger Russian identity.
>>18037699Belgium and the northern most parts of France were going to be annexed by Germany along with burgundy in eastern France https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_of_Belgium_and_Northern_France
>>18037710>>18037719>>18037726>UkraineUkraine, the breadbasket of course, was of paramount importance to Hitler particularly. A number of ‘settlement pearls’ were planned in Ukraine as well as one ‘settlement mark’ in the Crimea and adjacent hinterland. Hitler made mention of possibility of a Ukrainian collaborator republic in twenty years following the war but who knows how serious he was. Obviously, given that the RK’s were transitional civilian occupation regimes and therefore temporary, a decision would have to have been made. Personally, I think it clear that, once the objectives of cementing German economic domination and permanent settlement in the pearls and Crimean mark were met, Ukraine would have to transition to a more permanent form of governance. Once again, in accordance with Rosenberg’s ‘wall around Muscovy’ Ukraine was to stretch much further east, all the way to Kazakhstan to the detriment of the ‘Great Russians’.
>>18037728As I said for both Belgium and the Eastern French provinces, proposals went back and forth between competing organizations and agencies but annexationist trends towards Belgium were stronger than other places, less so in Eastern France, the decision ultimately lay with Hitler and he had little to say on the subject. So we cannot be wholly sure. That Germany declared the annexation of RK Belgium-Northern France in 1944 when they already lost almost all of it has little bearing on their decision making in a scenario where they win wholesale.
>>18037710I think it's a little disingenuous to claim one of the 6 drafts of the Generalplanost is definitively THE one. Otherwise I've liked your write-up/copy-paste. What was common to all was what I outlined here>>18037596That gives us a realistic floor
>>18037719>>18037726>>18037732>Kaukasien A Wehrmacht experiment in native-rule which saw little objection from other organizations because the people living there were not that objectionable. The capital was to be in Tbilisi, no direct German settlement was planned, administrative districts were to be organized along existing Soviet borders (ASSRs and so forth) and generally, cooperation and cultural autonomy was the order of the day so long as the oil and mineral resources of the region continued to be supplied to Germany at a steady rate. >Moskowien Generally, a prison colony and a place to send unwanted and disgraced figures from the Reich. A symbol of victory over the Muscovite heartland. No direct German settlement barring the administrative class needed to govern the territory as well as soldiers. The Lokot Autonomy was another Wehrmacht experiment in Russian self-governance which may have provided a model for some kind of future Russian collaborator state (despite Hitler’s insistence that no Russian state ever arise again west of the Urals). We can’t really know to much because the Germans simply never got that far.
>>18037737I use version four because it is the most complete one so it provides an extremely comprehensive overview of what one may have expected. Versions 1&2 only covered the directly incorporated Polish territories and the GG. Version 3 (which is one most people think of) which called for the expulsion of around 30 million people east of the Urals by the RSHA was laughed out of the building. And Version 5 was postulated but not nearly as comprehensive as Version 4. So I choose to base my opinion on the most expansive option. >Copy pasteIt does read like one I know, but I've been asked this question a lot so I do somewhat have a prepared answer in my mind.
>>18037736They switched to a civilian government at the end.
>>18037279nazism is a larp to justify the chosen leader having absolute power. he can say croats are aryans and everyone obeys even if it goes against their race laws. he could say blue is green and everyone would act as if blue is green. fascism, stalinism, maoism, it's all "i like power, and here's me making a system to make sure I KEEP MY POWER".
>>18037878You have a child's understanding of the world. National Socialism is a real thing not just le power. Read Hitler's National Socialism by Zitelmann if you want to learn about it.Power is obviously the underlying principle behind any interaction ever. All political power comes from the barrel of a gun, after all. Like Mao said.
>>18037755Do you have any sources about the versions? For further reading.
>>18037186I'm going to assume here that Nazi Germany gave up on its more insane schemes like Generalplan Ost and the Final Solution of the Jewish Question because both of those made any sort of negotiated settlement with the Western Allies and the Soviet Union (which was really the best Germany could have ever hoped for) completely impossible. I'm also going to assume that the lines froze roughly in their late-1941/early-1942 positions because the Soviets are never going to agree to hand over Moscow or Baku in a million years, even ceding Ukraine and Western Russia would be a bit of a stretch.>PolandThey probably give up on their efforts to kill/deport every Pole in the General Government at some point and come up with some cope like declaring that they've been been appropriately Germanized to become subjects of the Reich and can stay (re. made into an underclass and source of cheap labor).>Estonia, Latvia, LithuaniaThey'll have to give the Baltic states some form of at least limited self-rule or face imminent threat of mutiny from units like the Latvian Legion who fought for the German cause to restore their national independence from Soviet domination, not because they wanted to suck Hitler's dick.>UkraineReichskommissariat Ukraine would definitely have to be granted independence or at the very least made a client state of Nazi Germany (akin to the NDH in Croatia) becauseA. Germany NEEDS Ukrainian grainB. Ukraine is the largest (both in terms of population and land mass) of all the SSRs apart from Russia, and therefore the most able to violently resist German ruleC. Ukrainians are more likely to cooperate with being turned into the bread basket of the Reich if they get something in return, even if it's being a puppet dictatorship ruled by Stephan Bandera rather than a Reichskommissariat>Reichskommissariat MoskowienTurned into a giant buffer zone to protect German investments in Ukraine from the still-extant Soviet Union.cont.
cont. >>18038056Couple other things to keep in mind1. Germany NEEDs demobilize the Wehrmacht at some point because keeping 18 million men under arms in perpetuity is unsustainable.2. Germany NEEDS to transition back to a civilian economy at some point or else standard of living crashes and Nazi rule goes with it.3. For all the Nazis' talk of resettling the East, the overwhelming majority of Germans had no desire to actually live there where the climate is uncomfortable and the locals are hostile. Even the efforts to settle the General Government largely fell flat on their ass and Poland is literally right next door.4. Just because the war is over doesn't mean the Allies are going to stop providing clandestine support to resistance movements, so the Reich coming to some sort of amicable arrangement with its subject populations is imperative or else it's just going to be death by a thousand cuts.
>>18038056Yeah they shelved practically everything except general government colonization I imagine. It would basically just be a "jim crow" situation with institutional supremacy but relative native autonomy (outside of economics). But the germans thought they had economics in the bag and maybe that was true. I can imagine it falling apart like the soviet union.
>>18038026https://archived.moe/his/thread/17474455/#17474458
>>18038026This is the fourth version. It's in German but you can just translate it online https://www.1000dokumente.de/Dokumente/Generalplan_OstAs you may know, the other versions were more partially reconstructed from other documents and memoranda. I'm trying hard to the one source I had with a general overview of all the versions but I'm having trouble with it. If I find it, I'll post it for you.
>>18038091Oh hey, that's what I was looking for, thank you! >>18038026Look to this link as well.
>>18038091>>18038097Thanks
>>18038101You're welcome. I appreciate your>>18037755 ability to look at this subject objectively. This is very emotionally charged, either for the Hitler is the devil and wants to kill everyone crowd, or Hitler dindu nuffin crowd.
>>18037329why do Germans call the baltic sea "Ostsee" instead of "Baltisches Meer"?
>>18038216Strictly speaking because "der See" (sea) and "die See" (lake) are different words. However, probably because of low-german or earlier germanic influences which stuck around. The north sea for example is "north + sea" in all germanic languages.
>>18038216The North sea used to be called Westsee, with Jutland splitting the two apart, Ostsee was probably coined by Hansa, so it'd make sense from their point of view
>>18037584It's pretty obvious the NS prioritized Germanic racial interests over non-Germans>ethnic cleansing seems like the last thing theyd doWhy? It's the logical end conclusion of racial warfare over territory and resources
>>18037186How hard do they win though? A more realisitc situation where a large soviet union past the Urals still exists or Wolfenstein type retardation?Let's assume this is a scenario with any chance of actually happening and they don't own the world.Poland and Czechia would be first on the chopping block. They had already gotten a head start on destroying those cultures with things like the killing of intelectuals in Poland with Intelligenzaktion. Of course the Polish Home Army would still be a nuisance in this region, though I don't imagine it would turn into Germany's Afghanistan. Russian guerillas, especially if supported by the West or USSR rump state would be a major thorn in the side to their plans though.
Eastern Europe largely Germanized, Slavic populations moved to Central Asia.
>>18038793>the chopping blockThe chopping block?>destroying those culturesWhat the? Those cultures weren’t destroyed.Bohemian culture was preserved from bombings.Those weren’t Polish intellectuals btw. They were anti-German ultra nationalist radicals with institutional power. I am certain you have no problem with DeNazification which destroyed elements of German culture the West felt had contributed to Nazi ideas.What the Germans did to Poland was far less pernicious but of the same stripe.
>>18037755>Version 3 (which is one most people think of) which called for the expulsion of around 30 million people east of the Urals by the RSHA was laughed out of the buildinglaughed at by Wetzel (who still wanted a gigantic nordicist genocide and resettlement, just a more practical one), not Himmler and the SS, who had much more power at that time when it came to Eastern policy and were much more hardline. Rosenberg and his guys did not have the power. Himmler and the SS did. We saw what happened in Zamojszczyzna. Hans Frank said at Nuremberg that Adolf Hitler did not let him reopen Polish universities or remove the dumbing down of the Polish education system. There was no moderation on Eastern policy, it was only stopped once they began to lose on the Eastern Front and couldn't realistically make such plans anymore because the tides of war shifted.
The best historian when it comes to German occupation of Eastern Europe and Generalplan Ost confirms that it was the SS and Himmler's men in charge and had the most extreme ideas. Don't let Nazis lie to you that the plans were laughed at and seen as absurd and they came up with more moderate policies.https://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/reading/gpo/gpoarticle.HTM>One sometimes meets with the opinion that the GPO was only fantasy, an extravagance, a utopia that brought no practical consequences24. This view should be confronted with the already known facts and measures taken by the authorities of the Third Reich, particularly Himmler and his apparatus, which in the years 1941/42 gained an unquestionably key position in the eastern policy. The moves made to facilitate the realization of the GPO and all the initial measures for it realization are also important. The period of military successes in the east was too short to achieve anything more.>The period of work on the GPO coincided with the greatest intensification of Nazi crimes in the east. This applies, above all, to the mass "liquidation" of millions of Soviet prisoners-of-war and Jews. The data contained in the version of the GPO available to Wetzel had become obsolete. According to these data, 45 million persons were living in the territories assigned for colonization, including 5-6 million Jews. A large percentage of this population perished; the losses in Poland reached six million and in the territory of the USSR over 20 million, including about seven million civilians. Moreover, at least one and a half million Polish civilians and prisoners-of-war ware taken to the Reich for forced labor. And the Nazis intended to act even more ruthlessly after achieving victory. In November 1941, that is at the time when Hitler and his close associates considered that the result of the war was already decided, Göring gave some indications of this in a conversation with Ciano, the Italian Foreign Minister.
>During this conversation the question of the famine threatened Greece war raised. Göring advised Ciano not to worry about this too much, just as he was not worrying about the fact that the Soviet prisoners-of-war were dying of hunger. "This year, 20 to 30 million people will die of hunger in Russia. Perhaps it is a good thing that this is happening, because certain peoples must be decimated"25. It should also be borne in mind that the colonization of the annexed Polish territories and the Germanization of Silesia and Pomerania, by means of the general or very large-scale imposition of citizenship of the Third Reich upon Poles, were far advanced and progressing at a terrific pace, but the results were superficial and miscarried. In the Poznan and Lodz regions there were two chief resettlement staff headquarters and 17 district resettlement staff headquarters operating in August 1942. Pomerania, Silesia and the Polish lands incorporated into East Prussia had each one chief resettlement staff headquarters, with a total of 34 district staff headquarters (Pomerania 18, Silesia 7, East Prussia 9). Altogether, they deported about one million Polish citizens, at the same time resettling about three quarters of a million Germans from the Reich and Volksdeutsche of various kinds At Riga, there was a chief resettlement staff headquarters for the Soviet Baltic republic; a resettlement staff headquarter was also set up at Kowno as well as ten district statt headquarters. A resettlement staff headquarters was also set up in Prague.26
>In January 1942, Himmler came forward with the project of creating an area of German resettlement under his auspices in the south-western part of the occupied Lithuanian Republic, to which the Lithuanian Volksdeutsche who hat not yet been resettled were to return. As is known, "West Lithuania" was an area assigned for colonization in the plan evaluated by Wetzel. True, up to December 1942, Rosenberg was opposed to Himmler´s project; nevertheless, by autumn 1942, the SS authorities had expropriated 6,597 farms in Lithuania and had resettled on farms 16,786 persons27 who had been repatriated to the Reich in the years 1939/40. In March, 1942, while in Cracow, Himmler set himself the aim of starting the colonization of the Polish territories included in the General Gouvenment, territories which Hitler, in a conversation with Governor Frank in March 1941, had destined for Germanization within 15 to 20 years28. The head of SS and police designated the south-eastern part of the Lublin province, known as the Zamosc region, as the first area for colonization. Over 100,000 Poles were expelled from the Zamosc region between November 1942 and July 194329. A little earlier, in the second half of 1942, it was decided to create a resettlement area in the Zhitomir-Vinnitsa area which was to receive Volksdeutsche from the Ukrainie, who were threatened by the partisans. At this time steps were also made taken to prepare the Crimea to receive Germans repatriated from Italian Tyrol and Palestine after the war30. Among others, the SS-Krimkommando was set up.As we can plainly see, Himmler was the one making the decisions and who had the power. Rosenberg and his underling Wetzel had none and consequently their more gentle proposals meant nothing. Rosenberg was opposed to Himmler's plans, and the Reich went through with Himmler's ideas instead, expropriating property and giving it over to German settlers. Genocide.
>>18039691>Those weren’t Polish intellectuals btw. They were anti-German ultra nationalist radicals with institutional power.No, stop lying. Operation Tannenberg wasn't just for "ultra nationalist radicals with institutional power". It was organized mass murder of all Polish intellectuals, doctors, officers, etc in order to prepare the Poles for their death, new life of serfdom and slavery to Germans, or Germanization if their skull had the right measurements. You can read the Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen and do some research on who they killed. They were slaughtering many random innocent people. Lying Nazi you make me sick.
>>18039753This is inline with what has been said in this thread. In general the expansion of the German border eastward, at the expense of Poles and Balts who would be deported or Germanized. A permanent colony in Crimea. Satélite states in the East.>genocideIf you want pedantically to count this as a genocide then Germans were genocided after the war given they had the largest expulsion and mass deportations in history, millions were placed in concentration camps, they split Germany into three countries, forbidding unification, and had the largest psyop in history with "denazification". Of course all three states were occupied, vassalized and had their constitutions written for them.
>>18039798It was the most justified genocide ever. An act of righteousness after what they did and tried to do, exterminating the Slavs. You're a Nazi who justifies the mass murder of Poles. Every one of those fifteen million German refugees in Eastern Europe should have had a bullet dumped in the back of their head though.
>>18037690>There is no precedent for genocide.Yes there is, the most relevant example being American westward expansion, which served as an inspiration for Hitler's plans in the east.>besides, genocide isnt even evilAlso great how you immediately afterwards say that even if they had committed genocide it wouldn't be that bad. Something being common has no relevance to whether or not it's moral. >From the evidence we have, Germany wasnt planning or carrying out a genocide in the event of a German victoryThey were carrying out a genocide during the war, and their plans in eastern Europe required the removal of millions of Slavs from the territories they lived in, which would have required either genocide or widespread deportation. There's also the precedent of Germany committing genocide during the war, so there's no reason why they would stop after the war. >redeploy the imperial systemWhat Imperial system? The only part of eastern Europe that had a system of German elites ruling over a foreign populace were the Baltics.>you dont genocide your labor forceBut they did, by working them to death. It was a goal of German leadership outlined in the Wannsee protocol and served the dual role of supporting the war economy while also culling populations believed to be inferior.
>>18039739>>18039743>>18039753>nazis bad blogpostSlavic SS divisionsRussian SS divisionsThe Official State Policy of the Nazi Party was until the end of the war, Slavs were an Aryan people, not an untermensch.>b-butNo, this IS the official state policy.It comes from Richard Rein's 'Race and Culture of our Ancestors', it does not matter if 'german man says mean words' This is the official state policy which they never deviated from.What was the Soviet policy on Germans? The German policy on Germans? Did they see Germans as worthy opponents who took an immense amount of effort to defeat? Yes, did they still abuse the Germans in ways far worse than the Germans did to them? Yes.These ultranationalists in this thread assume literally everyone who isnt apart of their nationalism cult (the irony is completely lost on their low IQ mind btw) is a neo-nazi spy trying to 'trick' people into genociding Poles or w/e.They face an unanswerable questionIf the people searching for historical accuracy are actually trying to "clean" National Socialism, isnt that a good thing which theyd have nothing to fear? A national socialism without genocide is just a functional pro-national social policy right? What's actually wrong with that?Nothing.But they will pivot and say "any pro-German policy is inherently anti-Slavic/Jewish/Liberal and therefore will always lead to violence."Here we see the mask fall, they see anything done in the interest of the national body of an outgroup as inherently hostile to their ingroup, they are playing aggressive group politics and they dont want YOU to oppose them.They dont actually care about mythical nazi crimes, they care those crimes happened to them, not that they happened at all, thats why they dont care if they are mythical, they want to slander their enemies and exonerate themselves.They disarm you as they strike you.A rhetorical Versailles.Such subversives have no place in OUR civil society, they should be crushed.
>>18039805>most justified genocide everEither genocide is justified or its not, there is no "this one is, but this one isnt".>what they didwhich is what?>tried to doThought crimes now?>exterminating Slavsand yet their official state policy counted Slavs as kin and they had Slavs in their army.>youre a naziTHERE IT IS LOOOOLAnyone who isnt a Slavic/jewish ultranationalist is just a nazi in disguised.You are ideologically unable to participate in this thread.climb back up your tree Pidor, no one wants to kill you.I dont believe in genocide but if I did, Poles would be first, live by the sword die by the sword, you dont see German screeching despite losing, but Poles havent shut the fuck up despite "winning".
>>18039883>There isnope.>American Westward expansionNot a genocide and this wasnt done by Germans lol.>served as an inspirationok so Hitler is exonerated because Manifest destiny saw Amerinds receiving modern medicine, access to modern markets, and a highly developed way of life.>no relevance to whether or not its moralits more so that (You) dont believe in morality, so why do you have a problem with genocide?Do you get irrationally angry over a game of chess? its not immoral for you to lose, its just part of life.Yet when it comes to genocide you go insane, why?You dont believe in God, you dont believe in objective morality, why have a moral lens for genocide at all?>a genocide during the warFor this to be true at least 50% of Slavs in occupied territories would have had to be killed, otherwise we can reasonably attribute Slavic deaths to Partisan warfare, collateral damage, and wartime catastrophe.>their plans required the removal of millions of Slavswhere? most of Eastern Europe is to this day empty land.You could triple the number of Slavs and still have "lebensraum" for 100 million Germans.Look at the population density of Eastern Europe, its empty.>Germany committing genocide during the warProve it is not the far more parsimonious well substantiated explanation - that of the scourge of war (famine, collateral, reprisal).>Imperial Systemthat of The Kaiser's Germany.>the Balticsno, Eastern Prussia had a ton of Germans living among Poles and Germans were ascendent in regional politics.Poles were just another ethnicity in the German Empire.>working them to deathThis is not a genocide and being "worked to death" occurred on all sides in desperate circumstances, this is not evidence of a targeted campaign.>WannseeNothing in the only transcript we have (the actual transcripts were all destroyed :))))) indicates a targeted extermination campaign.Its salient components are relocation and removals, chiefly of hostile elements.
>>18040142>The German policy on Germans?American*
>>18037355>Estonians would be GermanizedWouldn't Finland ask to take care of them?
>>18040280Probably the ones deemed impossible to germanise, a win-win situation really, germany gains more land to give to veterans, finland gains people to settle karelia
>>18037186>how would they reorganize their territories? You can see that on the reintegration of the former GDR, They delegated a large number of officials to introduce the administrative and tax system, while all the robber barons who approved of the system took over the companies and plundered the people's wealth. Anyone who resisted was geRohweddert
Bump
>>18040491>the wealth of the impoverished landsman
>>18037186They would start with megalomaniacal plans that would fall apart due to lack of manpower and viable logistics, so they would end up striking alliances with various 'honorary arian' local factions forming asorted puppet states, eventualy hitler would die and it would turn out most germans dont actualy want to humanely relocate to the midlle of deadfuck nowhere so the surviving locals end up working the mines and oilfields till some internal crisis makes it all fall apart by the1990s
>>18041191Your brain on reddit
>>18037186What did Norway do to make Germany so mad?
>>18041211They didn't want to end up with their fleet boxxed in Bremen for the whole war like they did in WW1, norway had more than enough ports for the whole of Kriegsmarine
>>18041197Most things the nazis did were overplanned, overstreched, overestimated and meticulously missmanaged, why would this be different?
>>18041270Opposite actually. They did a lot of things rather ad-hoc.
>>18037409Colonize but with what population? The Third Reich had above birth rate during a short period and it wasn't that high especially to the Kaiserreich.It went below replacement during the war.
>>18041421Because almost all the like 10 million men were at the front, no one was home to make kids, they'd throw shitton of money and indoctrination onto the issue of low birthrates until they solved it, really if anyone was going to, it was gonna be the reich, eugenic natalism was one of the core parts of the ideology
>>18040180Germans did murder over 20 million people. Genocide is objectively evil, you dumb fucking cretin. It was Hitlers goal to exterminate all Slavic population of eastern Europe.
>>18040155Slavs and Germanics have been warring over land for 1000 years, trying to negotiate with them is pointless and they'll only interpret it as weakness
>>18042209What do you mean have been warring. The warring time is over since 80 years, Germany lost their east forever and Gdańsk, Wrocław, Szczecin, Poznań will literally never ever be German again and they signed a treaty renouncing all claims. A lot of younger Germans don't even know those places used to be German and the only people who care are old boomers on death's door that are part of Bund der Vertriebenen and a couple online daydreamer EU4 addicts like you that think you will take it all back in a racewar someday. We used to number 24 million in 1939 and now we number 38 million while Germany's population is barely greater than it was in 1938 with way fewer ethnic Germans now since half of young Germans have immigrant parents. We almost doubled the numbers of our race, got Lebensraum from you, got EU gibs from you, you even killed almost all the Jews in Poland for us. Now work harder German bitch I want more EU money and you'll give it to me bitch.
>>18041211Nothing.Norway wasn't treated anywhere as harshly as Poland
>>18041421>The Third Reich had above birth rate during a short period and it wasn't that high especially to the Kaiserreich.It was getting better, they even managed to get back above replacement level, but then the war fucked everything up. Had they won, they probably would've been able to make it work.
>>18042279I'm not a German lol, I'm Dutch. I probably hate Poles just as much as Germans do though. You are pretty subhuman all things considered, you must admit
>>18042279>What do you mean have been warring. The warring time is over since 80 years, Germany lost their east forever and Gdańsk, Wrocław, Szczecin, Poznań will literally never ever be German again and they signed a treaty renouncing all claims. A lot of younger Germans don't even know those places used to be German and the only people who care are old boomers on death's door that are part of Bund der Vertriebenen and a couple online daydreamer EU4 addicts like you that think you will take it all back in a racewar someday. We used to number 24 million in 1939 and now we number 38 million while Germany's population is barely greater than it was in 1938 with way fewer ethnic Germans now since half of young Germans have immigrant parents. We almost doubled the numbers of our race, got Lebensraum from you, got EU gibs from you, you even killed almost all the Jews in Poland for us. Now work harder German bitch I want more EU money and you'll give it to me bitch.
>>18042279You're just an albino jeet. That's all anyone sees you as
>>18042279When are your people going home by the way?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Germany
>>18042425I must admit that you're a colony of Morocco and Suriname for sure>>18042442You were such a big tough guy that wanted to kill Poles a few posts ago now you're asking us to politely leave? We'll stay getting your fucking money my paypig bitches and living on the land we stole while you disappear into replacement.
>>18042467Poles in Germany have a 91 average IQ lol. Behind Turks and Syrians. Poles are toilet cleaners in Germany and West European countries in general.(Not that it matters but in the study it said a more recent German norming would mean you have to subtract 5 from all these scores, since the German IQ is set to 100, so that would put Poles at 86 LOL).
>thread dissolves into /pol/tards chimping out
>>18042430Kek. Poland today is one of the first ones who would fight against Russia. The russian manlet leader yesterday was also seething that the German army is rapidly rearming and delivering missiles to Ukraine.I swear some /his/cels here live in a weird cope alternate reality.
I know Belarus had a collaborationist government and some special SS units, Lokot autonomy served as a test case for the reliability of a collaborationist Government in Moscow.Poles were absolutely despised, didn't get invited to a chess tournament in the GG while Russians and Belarusians ere, so prob. a pool of Slave labour.
>>18040142>Richard Rein's 'Race and Culture of our AncestorsNTa but the original Nuremberg laws, which handed out the small Aryan certificate, had Czechs and Poles explicitly listed as Aryans (Poles fell into Anglo control so Hitler took it personally, as he shilled for them and had a fight with his coalition partners because of it).So in 1936, a Czech, a German, an Italian were considerd "related blood" and allowed to marry. Doesn't matter what Himmler thinks.
>>18042467posts like this are why I told my congressmen to withdraw NATO support from Poland.>you’re just one guyI am one guy who works in Washington next to my state congressmen lol.
>>18042442See- this is what I don't understand. They were given a general government, allowed to speak Polish, and even permitted for stay over a long period of time. In the olden days they would have been exterminated, as had happened when Poland pissed off all of its neighbors two centuries earlier.
>>18042879>Identical tribes of Slavchimps want to fight each other>This is supposed to prove something
>>18043019>had Czechs and Poles explicitly listed as AryansI'm pretty sure those only meant poles that lived within the Reich at the time, so silesians, kashubians and masovians, not people from poland itself
>>18037323>>18037329>RumänienVGHHHH
>>18043067I'm sure the staffer for a congressman is going to get his representative to champion the cause of pangermanic Nazism, removing Poland from NATO, and forcing Poland to surrender their Western regions to Germany and that will successfully become part of the Republican party platform. I'm terrified.
>>18037252> A Belarusian and Ukrainian puppet state would he set up run by German aristocracyyou're retarded and you (proudly) don't read shit
>>18037409>I’d argue the Germans would Germanize... Baku very quicklyimagine some borat tier unibrow azerbaijani telling you he's pure aryan stock, VGH
>>18043258They were lubing Poland up into an alliance, so who knows. That came out in 35, after Hitler had a spat with his Prussian coalition partners because he initially took a pro Pole approach.Here is Hitler visiting Kielce admiring a Pilsudski bust.
