>For I seem to see Ganymede and Helen
>Standing on the summer grass beneath a lovely pine,
>With regal air and serene faces,
>With foreheads that shame the lily and cheeks, the rose.

>They seem to sit down together on the ground,
>Which smiles up at their faces.
>It is said that only the gods bestow such beauty.
>Each is astonished to have found an equal in loveliness.

>They exchange words about many things,
>And they contend with each other about their comeliness,
>Just as if radiant Phebe and Apollo were arguing.
>The impudent youth compares himself to the female.

>She, already longing for the male and ready for bed,
>Has for some time felt the proddings of love.
>The singular beauty of Ganymede inflames her
>And already the warmth within proclaims itself without.

>Modesty shrinks from a hospice of love:
>Nor has the maid still the modesty of a virgin;
>And since she is not asked, she asks, and entices,
>Offering him her lap, her kisses, her bosom.

>Both are stretched out upon the verdant grass,
>And might have been blessed with union,
>But Ganymede, not knowing the role expected of him,
>Presses himself against her as if he wishes to be passive.

>She senses something is wrong and is astounded.
>She pushes him away, rails at him;
>She curses nature and rants at the gods
>That a monster should be clothed with so fair a face.

>The matter brings them to a fight:
>The more she praises the female, the more he the male.
>They agree that Nature and Reason shall be
>The judges and determine the issue.

>Each therefore mounts a steed without delay.
>Three dawns see them hurrying on,
>Until the face of the rising sun greets them
>At the house of Nature, toward which they give rein.

>Mother Nature is in the palace of Jupiter,
>Ruminating over the secrets of things to come,
>Weaving thread into countless figures
>And creating things with precise scales and balances.

>Close by stands her companion, Reason, under whose surveillance
>She causes the newborn to grow and sows the seeds of those yet to be born.
>They mix the different sexes, and from this mixture
>Of different kinds, fertility arises.

>Providence also attends, of loftier stature,
>Whom the Creator of nature bore of pure thought.
>Neíther the past nor the present escapes her;
>Every visible creation is under her observation.

>“Lo,” she says, “I behold two humans coming,
>Of elegant beauty and astonishing comeliness.
>I wonder that earth could have produced them:
>Heaven itself would be proud of such offspring.

>I seem to hear them bringing their accusations against each other.
>I understand the argument, but I wish I did not.
>Now will you see all the gods gather.”
>She had spoken, and they saw it happen just so.

>The tale arouses Jove and his whole brood;
>Some are drawn by Helen, others by Ganymede.
>The palace is opened, the seats are ready.
>The gods fill the heavenly halls with majesty.

>Meanwhile Dardanus and Tindaris are called in;
>They are already stepping onto the threshold of the palace.
>They leave their horses; they shine with golden appointments.
>As they enter the celestial gateway, they are sighted immediately.

>Unexpected, the boy is seen to enter
>Like the morning star shining before the
>dawn.
>He seems to scorn all with his eyes,
>And his face disdains to adorn a mortal.

>His hair is like imperial gold cloth,
>Which is dyed by the Chinese from pure
>saffron.
>When it tries to reach his eyebrow
>It curls back coyly on the smoothness of
>his forehead.

>His eyebrows are separated by a comely
>space;
>His wide eyes sparkle with sweet rays;
>His mouth invites a kiss almost as a
>demand -
>His whole face glows with sweet charm.

>Helen follows, blushing slightly -
>She has not yet known a man and is still shy -
>As Cynthia came from the wave of Thetis.
>Nor is she second to the boy in fairness of face.

>Her hair is partly loose and hanging free,
>Partly bound into an elaborate coiffure, go
>Which is well pulled back from the top of her face;
>She holds her head aloft as one unused to fear.

>Her brow is proud, but her eye is playful.
>Her nose is beautifully shaped;
>Venus has seasoned her kiss with her own nectar,
>And some god polished her chin with his own hand.

>Lest her hair cover her real beauty,
>She moves it away from her face, pushing it up behind each ear,
>So her face appears like the dawn,
>Mixed, when it comes, with pink and white.

>Then you could see the gods squirming on all sides,
>Apollo growing hot, Mars panting,
>Groaning as if he had Venus herself in his arms.
>He made no effort to restrain himself; it was disgusting to hear.

>Jupiter calls Ganymede without shame,
>But Nature has prepared a seat for the maiden.
>She takes it ill that the boy has entered her home:
>She calls him neither son nor heir.

>A silence comes over the hall; the boy stands up.
>Helen stands also, turning her face away from him.
>Assuming that she will charge first into the fray of this battle,
>The entire assembly turns its eyes to her.

Helen:
>“Alas,“ says Helen, “I am sorry for you.
>You clearly hate the female gender.
>The natural order is overturned and law destroyed through you.
>I wonder why, since you will not produce children, your father produced you?”

Ganymede:
>“Let the old produce sons, for the enjoyment of the young:
>The young lust to have those in their prime.
>The game we play was invented by the gods
>And is today maintained by the brightest and best.“

Helen:
>“That face of yours is only decoration for the sake of
>decoration;
>It will pass away with you, since you will never know a wife.
>If you would marry [and beget a son],
>Your son could replace the form of his father.”

Ganymede:
>“I have no interest in replacing my face,
>But only in pleasing individuals with my individual being;
>I only hope that beauty of yours fades with age,
>Since I think it causes me to be loved a little less."

Helen:
>“Oh, how lovely is love between different sexes,
>When a man favors a woman in a mutual embrace!
>He and she are drawn together by natural attraction:
>Birds, wild animals, boars, all enjoy this union."

Ganymede:
>“But humans should not be like birds or pigs:
>Humans have reason.
>Peasants, who may as well be called pigs -
>These are the only men who should resort to women.“

Helen:
>"No love has ever touched the heart of a boy,
>But when the same bed joins a man and a woman,
>This is the correct connection, the proper arrangement,
>For like affections arise only from different sexes."

Ganymede:
>“Disparity divides things: it is rather like things that are rightly joined together;
>For a man to be linked to a man is a more elegant coupling.
>In case you had not noticed, there are certain rules of grammar
>By which articles of the same gender must be coupled together.”

Helen:
>“When the creator of men formed man,
>He tried to make woman more beautiful than man,
>So that he might attract man to mate with woman,
>And men would not love other men more than women."

Ganymede:
>“I should have agreed that it was decorous to love women,
>If appearance were the same thing as good manners.
>But when women are married, they sully the delights of the bed;
>And when they are not married, they make themselves public utilities."

Helen:
>“Let men blush, let Nature grieve;
>It is not the intention of Nature that men be bound to each other.
>Venus joins men only in a fruitless union:
>The boy sells his charms heedless of his sex."

Ganymede:
>“We know this activity is accounted worthy by those worthy to be counted;~
>The people with power and position in the world -
>The very censors who decide what is sin and what is allowed -
>These men are not immune to the soft thighs of a boy.“

Helen:
>“I am not considering those people who
>act when driven by frenzy.
>No reasonable argument defends you, O
>youth!
>This boy has never felt any desire,
>Whence he sins and offends even more
>gravely.”

Ganymede:
>“The fragrance of profit is pleasing; no one
>avoids gain.
>Wealth, if I should speak plainly, does
>have a certain appeal.
>Anyone who wishes to grow rich is
>willing to play this game:
>If a man desires boys, he is willing to
>reward them.”

Helen:
>“Even if this were not counted a sin for
>youth,
>No rationalization could defend the
>elderly.
>I can only laugh when I see some obstinate old man:
>A game of this sort is surely a sin in old age.”

Ganymede:
>“I do not excuse the elderly, whom age accuses;
>It does seem disgraceful, when they can already see white hairs,
>To occupy themselves with such matters and usurp the activities of the young.
>But the old should not be a discouragement to the young.”

Helen:
>“Tell me, youth, when youthful good looks change,
>When you grow a beard, when your face gets wrinkles,
>When your chest turns bushy, when your hole grows tough,
>What anxious stud will dream of you then?”

Ganymede:
>“Tell me, maiden, when your virginal charms waste away,
>When your lips grow thick, your skin dries out,
>When your eyebrows droop and your eyes are tired,
>Is not then the most passionate of your lovers also going to droop a bit?”

Helen:
>“You try to be smooth and hairless below
>So that your temple there might be like that of a
>woman,
>So that in defiance of nature you might become a
>girl.
>You have declared war on nature with your filth.”

>>18050630
this can't be. I was told gay and straight were fundamentally different forms of attraction. What possible comparison could there be? Butler save me...

Ganymede:
>“I might wish to be smooth and soft below the
>waist,
>But God forbid that I should have the shrine of a
>woman.
>This is done precisely so I might repel women,
>whom I contemn.
>How much difference is there between a woman
>and an ass?”

Helen:
>“Oh, if I were not restrained by gentle modesty,
>I would not be mincing any words with you.
>But it is demeaning to use bad language,
>And foul words ill become the mouth of a maiden.”

Ganymede:
>“But we came prepared to speak of vulgar matters:
>There is no place here for the modest.
>Shame and piety have already been abandoned,
>Nor shall I spare either maidenly airs or the truth."

Helen:
>"I do not know which way to turn, for if I do not speak on a par with the vicious,
>I shall be called the loser;
>But if I strive to equal you in words,
>I shall be thought a whore to have spoken so impurely.”

Ganymede:
>“Find someone else to fool, someone who does not know you.
>I know whom you have offered your bosom to, lying on your back.
>Where was that dovelike innocence then?
>Suddenly Thais has become Sabina.”

Helen:
>“You males who apply yourselves to men,
>Who rashly emasculate males,
>By night you taint both boys and yourselves with vice;
>In the morning - I should really pass over this - the shame is on the sheets.“

Ganymede:
>“You men in whose bed sleeps a prostitute,
>Whom it delights to be filled with feminine filth,
>When Thais, recumbent, reveals herself to you,
>You know what her bilge water smells like.“

Helen:
>“Thais smells of Thais in the manner of Thais,
>But a girl excels balsam in fragrance.
>There is honey in her kiss, honeycomb in her lips.
>Blessed he who enjoys sleep with a virgin.”

Ganymede:
>“When Jupiter divides himself in the middle of the bed,
>And turns first to Juno, then to me,
>He hurries past the woman and spends his time playing love games with me.
>When he turns back to her, he either quarrels or snores.”

>>18050630
The Didache said "you shall not commit pederasty" the church fathers likewise were sharply critical of the vile practice of pederasty in Roman society. In the middle ages, you would rightly be put to death for buggery. The position of the Church has always been that this crime merits the penalty of death under the law of God
>If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Helen:
>“Your Venus is sterile and fruitless,
>And highly injurious to womankínd.
>When a male mounts a male in so
>reprobate a fashion,
>A monstrous Venus imitates a
>woman.”

Ganymede:
>“It is not a monstrous thing, if we
>avoid the monster:
>The yawning cave and the sticky bush,
>The hole whose stink is worse than
>anything else in the world,
>The cavern which neither pole nor oar
>should approach.”

Helen:
>“Hush your foul and unpleasant
>language!
>Converse more modestly, you filthy boy!
>If you are not willing to defer to a maiden,
>At least defer to the gods and to Nature.“

Ganymede:
>“If the subject is cloaked with the ornaments of words,
>Decorated filth will be able to fool us.
>I will not be a party to gilding the dross:
>It is only right for the words to fit the subject.”

Helen:
>“I shall throw away the cloak of modesty;
>If you feel that way, I shall henceforth speak plainly:
>When that impure coupling joins you
>And you lose the tear of Venus between your thighs,
>Ha! There, if you do not realize it, is the offense to mankind!
>The words are nasty, but the deed even more so.”

>>18050652
See >>18050651
sodomite

>When the boy hears the unmentionable crime,
>A stupor seizes his tongue, a blush rises to his checks.
>A warm dew steals furtively from his eyes.
>Wanting an argument, he does not defend himself.

>He is silent. Reason rises to speak.
>She prudently limits herself to a few words:
>“There is no need of a judge,” she says, “the matter speaks for itself.
>“I say to the boy, Enough. The boy is conquered.”

>He replies, “At least I utter no rebuttal.
>“I recogníze error, now that I have learned what it is."
>“And I,” Apollo adds, "have come to my senses.”
>Jupiter says, “I am aflame for my Juno."

>The ancient heresy is banished by the inhabitants of heaven.
>The chorus of virgins rejoices; Juno gives thanks.
>Reason celebrates with the children of Nature.
>The maiden is crowned with public approval.

>Ganymede asks to be granted her hand in marriage:
>All the attendant gods approve this as fitting.
>The blessed union joins them in bliss,
>The voice of joy resounds; my slumber departs.

>This vision befell me by the will of God.
>Let the Sodomites blush, the Gomorrhans weep.
>Let everyone guilty of this deed repent.
>God, if I ever commit it, have mercy on me!

End.

>>18050657
I would be swayed like this, but I'm genetically predetermined to like what I like so art is pointless.

>>18050651
>The position of the Church has always been that this crime merits the penalty of death under the law of God
But even the Church officials couldn't resist the allure of boys >>18050645:
>“We know this activity is accounted worthy by those worthy to be counted;~
>The people with power and position in the world -
>The very censors who decide what is sin and what is allowed -
>These men are not immune to the soft thighs of a boy.“

>>18051938
>durr I'm just going to stay on message no matter what anyone says
maybe I should do the same, just stick to the message that you're retarded.

>>18051944
Huh?

>>18051946
you're retarded

Wow this thread sucks

>>18050651
Based, I love when the Torah says:
וְאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יִשְׁכַּ֤ב אֶת־זָכָר֙ מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֔ה תּוֹעֵבָ֥ה עָשׂ֖וּ שְׁנֵיהֶ֑ם מ֥וֹת יוּמָ֖תוּ דְּמֵיהֶ֥ם בָּֽם׃

Praise YHWH (יהוה) for bringing this truth to Europe through his son Rabbi Yeshua (ישוע) son of Yosef (יוֹסֵף).

>>18051974
same

>>18051938
Just proves Martin Luther was right

Hopefully no one comes and gives this moron the attention he so desperately wants.

>in all fields

>>18052217
Triggered by a 12th century medieval poem?

>>18052237
silence faggot

>>18052246
>reads a poem that's nearly 1000 years old
>gets angry
Imagine being this fragile.

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>>18052217
>>18052246
Oh yikes, looks like OP really hurt your fragile masculinity, didn't he?

>>18050630
>Amores (2th-4th century AD)

You've gotten sloppy

>>18050630
>I will post the complete poem ITT
Why did you post some shitty translation instead of the poem you fag?

>>18052763
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amores_(Lucian)

>>18052790
Because nobody reads Latin.

>>18052804
>Because nobody reads Latin
then maybe learn it?

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>>18052813
Why would I bother learning a dead language, so that I could read a handful of texts which are of interest to me? I have better things to do, like playing viddy.

>>18052832
>i'm interested in history
>but i'm not interested in reading sources
peak midwit, peak /his/

>>18050651
>Old covenant and Apocrypha
Come on now.

>>18052871
where did he say he was interested in history? This is yet another gay shitpost thread.

>>18053127
>being interested in historical topics I don't like is shitposting!

>>18053129
Interested means there's interest. What are you interested in here? There is no issue at hand that attracts you. Except maybe being annoying.

>>18053131
>What are you interested in here?
The history of pederasty... which is why I posted a historical 12th century poem about pederasty. Maybe your infantile brain can't comprehend it, but there's more to history than just wars and battles.

>>18053141
Does it confuse you that he's debating a woman and not an adult man? Do you feel like the same debate is raging within you?

>>18053141
Gays literally can't be into history. Not only is the concept of a gay person unknown to history, it's all about the glory and success of straight people. Even successful homos are only exploited by society and discarded, they have no lasting reward.

>>18053143
>Does it confuse you that he's debating a woman and not an adult man?
No, because historically it was taken for granted that boys are attractive to men in the same way that women are.

>>18053159
Being attracted to boys wasn't viewed as "gay" historically, and the word "homosexual" didn't exist until the late 19th century. You are projecting your 21st century, post-feminist worldview onto the past.

>>18053160
>historically it was taken for granted that boys are attractive to men in the same way that women are.
>Being attracted to boys wasn't viewed as "gay" historically
what changed? I thought you could never look at a woman because of down syndrome or something

>>18053163
What are you talking about?

>>18053165
Wondering how you qualify as gay by modern standards, if you understand history

>>18053159
>it's all about the glory and success of straight people
Half of history's great men seem to be fags

>>18053173
fag and gay person are different. You're a fag for looking at porn with dicks, but that doesn't make you a gay person. Most of those great men also dabbled with women because they could.

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>The Debate of Ganymede and Helen is a 12th century poem written by an unknown French author, surviving in manuscripts all over Europe.

What OP means by this is that scribes in medieval Europe copied this poem down, as was often the case with nearly every surviving poem and manuscript we have from this time, which were usually themselves copies of older/lost works.

>similar to the story titled "The Man's Dispute with the Learned Woman Concerning the Relative Excellence of Male and Female" in the Arabic Nights (12th-16th century AD) and the dialogue attributed to Lucian, Amores (2th-4th century AD)

Here we see some of the works they were likely copying from or more broadly as they were sorted in whatever archive the scribe was copying from. It is worth noting that Amores was not written by Lucian but written by pseudo Lucian and he was likely writing in the 4th century posing as the actual Lucian from the *2nd* century.

>In pre-feminist times, despite harsh social and legal opposition to homosexual acts ...

He then follows these two lies of omission by posting fagslop propaganda. I do not necessarily blame him for being effeminate and deceptive, it is merely the nature of the homosexual to be as such, but you should know for his that there is little to be gained in conversing with him.

>>18053967
>What OP means by this is that scribes in medieval Europe copied this poem down
It was authored in the 12th century.

>>18054508
It has unknown authorship and scant mention in any academic sources I have found. If it wasn't a copy of an older and now lost work, it is very likely a forgery.

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>>18054660
>i did a perfunctory google search of this obscure 12th century poem and there wasn't a Wikipedia page about it so therefore it fake

>>18054699
That's not what I said

>>18053967
This shut him down quick lmao