historically how long have trans people been around?what sorts of things did people think about them?
Trans people is an oxymoron
>>18052224There have definitely been people with gender dysphoria for thousands of years. At no point in history was it ever commonplace or even something anybody would be willing to talk about publicly in pretty much any society. People were not actively thinking of them or the concept as a whole at all until the 20th century.
>>18052224As late as the 1990s, nationalism was the vehicle of populist ideology. The nation is concerned with family units, social contracts, birth rates, economics. After Serbia and 9/11 the world opened up to modern transgender interpretations because nation and family were dethroned, then the world wide web performed the actual coup de grace. It was and is extremely rare to find a pre-9/11 source contending that trans people are really their chosen sex, because that wouldn't make sense with the definitions of the time. in a family oriented world, trans women are not real women. I think it's not correct to say trans people existed before 9/11 in the way we understand them today, or at least they were not liberated. They lived completely in hiding.
>>18052224Basically forever. Local attitudes varied considerably.
>>18052224It depends what you consider trans people. Many males have felt or were treated as women in history, the opposite too. Now, modern transgenderism is a totally different thing as 3/4s of it is a result of grooming and porn addiction
>>18052358It's just neoteny. The scope of a fully mature person is dialed back to increase longevity and decrease aggression. At peak humanity, an old man is a patriarch with several generations of descendants in addition to being a master artisan. Strength and intelligence are assumed, the foundation of proper upbringing. If you remove the descendants and the mastery, strength and intelligence are vestigial antlers that only weigh down the new male. Swap T for E and they look better, less aggressive, no more unrequited faustian desires. Maybe someday they'll live longer. Very modern
There is no such thing as transIt was an experiment that got botched but instead of admitting incompetence, he presented it as a new discovery.Perverts and idiots believed it and stopped asking questions. Never realizing why the guy they performed experiment on killed himself
>>18052396Who, exactly, are you talking about?
Ancient rome had at least 2 trans emperors.
>>18052396men have been trying to turn into women and animals since the time of the titans>>18052412nope
To understand trans identity, you have to understand gender identity.In which case it is relatively new to us to have made such observations and discussions on the topic.As of the late 20th century really.
>>18052434>gender identityhahahahaha
>>18052224If you read history, there have always been Gay or Trans-like people in different societies. However, modern transgenderism is very different from the gays of the past and has long-term consequences
Everyone ITT is wrong (except first post) because tranny idealogy is based on postmodernism which obviously didn't exist historically. >>18052434This is actually correct for the reason stated above, although formulated gay as hell for some reason
>>18052459Yes, gender identity, fuckwit!https://www.britannica.com/topic/gender-identity
>>18052488Man that is funny
>>18052470Go fuck yourself!I'm only can draw from so much going by what I was given.This is what I got from britannica.>The nature and development of gender identity have been studied and disputed by psychologists, philosophers, and social activists since the late 20th centurySo eat my fucking ass!
>>18052507>I'm only can draw from so much going by what I was given.SAAR
>>18052488>Ledditroons post hereThe surprise!
>>18052514Typo.I was going to start with 'I'm only' but then changed my mind and forgot to to delete the "'m."All the same, no argument against what I've presented.>>18052519>it's reddit to source britannicaThis is some serious plot loss.
>>18052224a. don't call them peopleb. germany invented them in the 1910s. it's one of the few pieces of yuro culture
>>18052522Why would I argue against the exact same thing I was saying, tranny, has the estrogen melted your brains?
>>18052488
>>18052522>it's not reddit to source jewish controlled """"sources""""lel
>>18052522>This is some serious plot loss.I would say pretending men can get pregnant is a serious plot loss
>>18052531Wait, you're in agreement with me?>>18052534We're not gonna make it with that mentality.>>18052537Dummy, gender isn't fucking real.When you wrap your head around that, then yeah, men can get pregnant.To give an example: Rosie the Robot is considered a women. A robot woman. But, does not have anything going on between her legs. She doesn't even have legs. But, all the same is still recognized as such.So, in that case, aside from the biology (or the lack thereof), what about her as a women is different from Jane?Really think about that.I know it sounds dubious. But, there's something to it. It doesn't have to be Rosie, but come one. Conceptualize this. Please humor this as a thought experiment.
>>18052470We could say similar things about the concept of homosexuality, really. Nobody back then had homosexual identity but there are things that we consider "homosexual" in regards to specific acts that historical peoples engaged in. There are traditional cultures (none of which are Western) that exist nowadays with third genders, but they really exist outside of the new Western framework of gender identity. We'd have to think outside of the identity politics associated with "trans" and try to discuss what we really mean: people with expressed genders outside of an understanding of a strictly fixed gender binary according to sex.We have skeletons in Europe with questionable gender expression, such as pic related. There is debate as to the femininity of the skeleton's clothes, and thus it is questionable if we can tell if this person was considered a woman or not, but basically the person who left this skeleton had tits, but was masculine enough to be given swords as a well-respected warrior would be in their grave. This was in Finland, but I believe there is another similar one in Portugal.
>>18052560I agree, gender isn't real, only sex. Your stupid robot falls under anthropomorphism, not a case to make for men being pregnant, you dumb motherfucker.
>>18052562>people with expressed genders outside of an understanding of a strictly fixed gender binary according to sex.No, that's not what we mean, that's the aforementioned postmodern tranny garbage. You will never be a woman. When we're talking about trannies we're talking about men pretending they're women like you.>We have skeletons in Europe with questionable gender expression1. There is no such thing as "gender expression" 2. Your filename says XXY chromosome, which isn't the same thing as trannies 3. Debating the femininity of the clothes is embarrassing. Crossdressers of course existed historically, and were not trannies.
>>18052568Well, at least you don't recognize gender as a objective concept.Perhaps you'll recognize someday that sex is not some sacred thing and that people transitioning genders is a nothingburger.
>>18052579There is no transition, you become a mutilated man not a woman.
>>18052562>There are traditional cultures (none of which are Western) that exist nowadays with third genders>be me, tribal chief>see a man acting flamboyantly and being sexually to other men>can't understand how a man can behave this way so invent a new sexual category just for him>many years later mentally ill retards use my decision as an excuse to claim they're "genderfluid">this is my legacy now
>>18052579I don't recognize "gender", period. There is only sex, and it cannot be changed. If you're a man and you call yourself a woman your delusions should never be supported. You should be placed in a facility which will give you the help you need or keep you away from the public in case your case is too severe, and any person who provided service to you or was in position of authority to affirm your delusions should be given prison time.
>>18052573>When we're talking about trannies we're talking about men pretending they're womenI see you're still fixated on the identity politics that would've never have existed if gender didn't happen to share the same word that also happens to be synonymous with sex in another definition. Not discussing modern tranny shit, dude. The concept is useful to understand things that don't fit with in a European traditional binary man-woman roles, like hijra, amrads, and the skeleton I mentioned.>1. There is no such thing as "gender expression"This is semantics, and isn't really engaging with the ideas I'm trying to communicate.>2. Your filename says XXY chromosome, which isn't the same thing as tranniesNobody said this was a tranny. We have no evidence to assume anything like that even existed in their culture. The point was that this person with tits didn't really neatly fit into a binary role of man or woman, and that is what sparked debate.>3. Debating the femininity of the clothes is embarrassing. Crossdressers of course existed historically, and were not trannies.Yes. You are now adding an important point to the so called embarrassing debate you just participated in. Congratulations.
>>18052583How is there "man" or "woman" here when there is no gender?Those are gender concepts.>>18052611>There is only sex, and it cannot be changedOkay. Gender is what's being transitioned, and since there is no gender, then there is only the configuration of presentation is what's being done.You should be placed in a facility which will give you the help you need or keep you away from the public in case your case is too severe, and any person who provided service to you or was in position of authority to affirm your delusions should be given prison time.Based on what? It seems like a bit much drawing from so little.I don't want my tax dollars going into something like that, when gender affirming care seemingly works and engenders well adjustment and community.From britannica:>Mental health professionals who support the diagnosis and treat GD children counter that their treatments help GD children to have better peer relations and thus bolstered self-esteem and that research indicates that GD children do exhibit forms of distress associated directly with their gender variance
>>18052611>>18052671Ah, I forgot to quote the middle of your post.You should be placed in a facility which will give you the help you need or keep you away from the public in case your case is too severeIt's rather much.
>>18052611>>18052671>>18052676Ah, fuck.Whatever.
>>18052671No word games, no "configuration of presentation", only sex. If you're a man and dress like a woman, you're a freak and will draw hilarity at your local circus. But If you're genuinely convinced you're a woman, proclaim yourself one and demand the world to adjust accordingly, you are greatly disturbed and should be treated for it. >I don't want my tax dollars going into something like thatIf you support transgenderism I couldn't care less what you want
>>18052685If only having a penis makes you a man.Then you're hardly a man.
>>18052687see >>18052587
>>18052690You don't know what genderfluid is.Otherwise you wouldn't have tried to use that as a dunk.The idea of gender is bullshit on its own.Gender is meta. It is meta sex.It's sex.Okay?It is about sex. The ideas we have socially around sex.Excuse me if I'm belaboring my point.
>>18052700I should probably stop typing like I'm talking.I stammered there and just said "it's sex" and you're probably are going to hyper focus on it.
>>18052700If you have a penis, you will never be a woman.
>>18052705If you have a penis, and don't do much else, then what manner of man are you?Not much I'd say.
>>18052707And you will never be a woman.
>>18052709Well, it's a good thing I don't identify as a woman.But, in any case, I wouldn't want to be cognitive dissonant troglodyte chud like yourself.
>>18052717>>18052709Talk about /his/, not contemporary identity politics.Example: >>18052659
>>18052717Your identification is irrelevant, you have a penis so you're not a woman.
>>18052718This is of the humanities.And I already made my historical angled contribution to the thread here>>18052507.What is the source of this.It also kind of gives mixed sentiment. Basically what's mentioned in the end.Not exactly a positive view, but enough to ensure proper burial.
>>18052723Identity is the whole fucking point!
>>18052726>This is of the humanities.Fuck me, I always forget that part. Guess you guys can carry on kek>What is the source of this.https://doi.org/10.1017/eaa.2021.30It's a pretty good read. Gives a lot of room for interpretation and is pretty well rounded.
>>18052727You can't change what you are.
>>18052731That's a rather cynical take.That's supposed to be one of humanities saving graces: our ability to change. If not just simply for the better, then to adapt.Even Jesus says something in that regard.>And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hellI know Jesus is not being literal here. But, neither is gender. HRT and gender reassignment surgery are just means to affirm gender. They are not be all end all to what it means to be trans.For that matter, in the opposite direction, such things as breast implants are a means to affirm gender for women. Which is basically doubling down on their womanhood.
>>18052224Transvestites have always existed. "Transgender" is a purely post-modern product of sociological academia. Trannies in the past understood that they weren't really women, in spite of how much they wanted to be.
>>18052899>Trannies in the past understood that they weren't really women, in spite of how much they wanted to be.Essentially correct, there was/is this notion of a "third sex" in many cultures, which is by no means the same thing as saying that you can become the opposite sex (F or M)
>>18052562>Find intersex corpse>Sickle to prevent rising from the dead>Appears to have been respected part pf society>In times when absolutely raving madmen could be respected witches and shamans>For who it was common to hide their identity from spiritsMany people misinterpret culturalry foreign things as trans
>>18052434No such thing as "gender identity": if you're a woman (as defined by your chromosomes/genitalia), you will always be a woman, identifying as one isn't necessary. If you're a man, you will always be a man, no matter how hard you identify as a woman.There is also no such thing as "gender" as some call it, there's only sex. "Gender" is a poorly-defined concept that can mean anything you want it to mean while at the same time ignoring the biological realities of sex and DNA.If you want to put on a wig and a dress and call yourself "Brenda" I won't stop you, but don't expect everyone else to start thinking of you as a literal woman and then throw a tantrum when they inevitably "mistake" you for a man. A man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man: men and women are different, but this is highly problematic to acknowledge in 2025.You might think I'm being harsh, but this is just the reality of things. I wish things were different, I wish we were free to become whoever we wanted, but the truth is you have a physical body, it's either male or female due entirely to factors outside your control, and you don't get to just ignore what your body and reality in general are telling you.
>>18052224>historically how long have trans people been around?Forever>what sorts of things did people think about them?They didn't have psychiatry
>>18052963As a word, "gender" can be understood as a euphemistic synonym of "sex", it's helpful to clarify that you're talking about XX/XY and not the act of having sex with someone.Like "rooster" instead of "cock"
>>18052224You can tell trannies are the ideological descendants of American Protestants because they both retroactively interpret every weirdo who has ever existed as a hidden precursor to their abnormal sect. Trannies are Baptist secessionists by another name.
>>18052224The modern ideology of Transgenderism, not the process of such an "identity" but rather the religion behind it, only exists because of 1) the Protenant Reformation, 2) the effects that the Protenant Reformation had on the colonization of North America, 3) Engels flirtation with idealism following the death of Marx, 4) the presidential election of 1912, 5) The failure of European Neo-Fascists like Jean Thiriart to convince the Iraqi government to help make them an army to invade Israel and later Europe, and, 6) American victory in the cold warI'm not going to explain how or why these caused the ideological basis for modern transgenderism, but i assure you that i am entirely correct, and that all the elements stated are at least partially responsible for that ideological birth.
>>18053152>The failure of European Neo-Fascists like Jean Thiriart to convince the Iraqi government to help make them an army to invade Israel and later EuropeNot sure if schizo or troll
the gods have always made people like this how we were seen depended wildly on cultures there's no real one thing to say there was. Even in the same cultures and timeframes people didn't have ideological consistency and society didn't have equality. If the gods gave it to someone in a noble family they would have a very different experience to a peasant getting it. In some cultures though trans people had a lot of good options, like the cult of cybelle in ancient rome or indian hijras who protect each other and do magic for money so people generally treat them well.
>>18053152have you ever been so mad that you wrote an entire paragraph parody post that nobody except the original poster would understand? I haven't.
>>18052224Under the current definition, pretty much just the last half a century.Rare cases of people getting their sex changed in some physical way, or people being viewed as something else than regular man or woman have been present since antiquity. One weird case was Nero's "wife" Sporus, who after his castration was fully treated as a woman by everyone who interacted with him, being referred to with a female name etc.The gender binary seems to be a constant though. People who say that tons of cultures have recognized third/non-binary genders are lying. Basically every culture ever considered everyone as either a man or woman (or child). Some of them did put people who were born male in the group of women, not as a third gender, just a subet of women.
>>18053152>I'm a woman because I said so, chud. Vae victis.>NOOOOO YOU CAN'T LOCATE ME WITHIN HISTORICAL CURRENTSgrow up
>>18052224>>18052224>>18052224I literally can't read this seething jew without hearing Ben Shapiro's voiceThis is from the first century AlexandriaYou can ignore anyone that won't achnowledge that we have good records of trans people going back to the late 19th century and great records of queer people that may have been trans going back another few centuries. The farther you go back though the more the line blurs about whether someone would have been gay, trans, queer or just wanted more rights like some women dressing as men. We have cases of "trans" priestesses going back as far as written history especially in Anatolia and the Scythian lands>>18052611This guy says we are all delusional but he believes a carpenter 2k years ago was the son of God while ignoring that the same dude said eunuchs were totes fineI can't help but notice that this thread has completely ignored the Hijra, 2 spirits, pre Colombian meso American third gender records, the Galli, Kathoi and every other 3rd and trans category of people many of which predate Christianity Hell the Greeks even have stories for why people are intersex and transgender one of them being that Dionysus got Hermes and Prometheus wasted and they created new people after scrambling their bodies and minds
>>18053372Oops sorry forgot the seething text
>>18053201This is not accurate they started using hormones in the late 19th century and got it down to a science in the early 20th century. If you count non modern medical advances they have known you could use pregnant horse piss as an estrogen for mtf's since the start of history when it shows up in Herodotus
>>18053158>He doesn't knowhttps://www.eurasia-rivista.com/the-struggle-of-jean-thiriart/>Not sure if schizo or trollI'm 100% serious with what i said >>18053191This wasn't a parody. Also you talk like a faggot
>>18052238This, there are examples in too many places and for too long to discount trans history. They may have not called it that back then but social concepts change over time.>>18052274we did 9/11>>18052396that whole tragedy proves that gender dysphoria exists not the other way around>>18052525Wrong. Yakub created us.>>18052562there are a few of these and they have been advancing our understanding of gender and gender roles throughout history
>>18053372>>18053375Not modern transgenderism. He doesn't say anything about them being real womyn>>18053382>This wasn't a parodyI don't care what you call it>>180535329/11 did you
>>18053648Wow words and ways of thinking about things change and evolve over timeC-R-A-Z-Y right?
>>18053687It's usually not a big deal, yet it is in this case. I wonder what deeper meaning that holds.
>>18053693Its because transgender is a medical term for a medical condition. Things like Hijra, Kathoi, Galli, 2 spirits ect are cultural and they were all ancient civilizations ways of letting these people exist, giving them a purpose and explanation. Now these people still exist and because of Murdoch media Christians have been whipped up into a frenzy about them. Its all manufactured no one screeching about gender ideology have a shit when kids started getting treated in the 90s or when the modern system of treatment was developed in the 00s. They didn't give a shit when the ACA codified trans Healthcare in 2012. No this hysteria started in 2015 when gay marriage got legalized to give Christians a new group to target since they knew they were almost done destroying abortion and because gay marriage got too popular.Shit like this is why I will never trust Christians again, you're largely bigots or so unintelligent you are easily led by the nose by literal nazis.This might shock you but most trans people consider themselves functionally intersex and just want the same treatment femme or masc intersex people get.
Well, there is some evidence of cross-dressing in Ancient Egyptian elite performance, though not necessarily recognized as a distinct gender category.
>>18054026I reject the idea that being a woman or feminine man is inherently bad. It's something people have been trying to achieve since time immemorial. When we get a decent virtual version, lots of people will play. I don't see the comparison to a disabling medical condition that sufferers really regret. Despite what people say on /pol/ the primary purpose of transition is happiness, you don't hear about many people trying to medicate it away.
>>18054122Errrmm he's too brown. All egyptians were white. We wuz egyptians.
>trans spam thread autosagesnot enough room for godjaks
