I'm a Christian myself, people operate at such a low level that it's hard to resonate.Some even knows that and wants to maintain it.Atheists, Christians etc. I want to hear your unfiltered, uncool opinions on it.I will share some myself.
>>18055573Most Christians genuinely do believe in God, but their thought process justifying this belief hinges on the implicit idea that their wants and needs dictate reality.You see this when they try to prove atheism is false by bringing up unfortunate things which would be true in a world where God does not exist, or a world where people do not believe in God.
>>18055591It's hard to apostatize from Christianity because of the abundant testimonies from other Christians.It's not because of this logic, that argument, etc.We believe those.I'm having a sort of crisis of faith here to be blunt. A beginning of one at least.Who are my superiors? Atheists? The spiritualists?
Just for the sake of the spirit of the thread, I will just say, atheists hate God.This is a fact.Not an argument that God does exists or doesn't.
>>18055601>atheists hate God.What about those who earnestly want to believe but can't?
>>18055596Why would people's testimonies make you believe in God? The fact that Christianity improves many people's lives is not good evidence for the existence of God, it's just evidence for the psychological benefits of Christian practice.>Who are my superiors? In what sense? There's lots of people who are superior to you and me in a variety of different areas.
>>18055601Do you mean hate God or hate the concept of God? I can't hate something which doesn't exist.
>>18055601The idea that atheists hate God is pushed by Christians because it's almost necessary for their theology to work.
>>18055605You can hate something which doesn't exist though.But I will say the very concept, yeah.
>>18055606Unless you live in a fantasy, I doubt you will love God, Christians just have to make peace in some way.
>>18055608Loving God/hating God is not a true dichotomy.
>>18055604I'm talking about those supernatural experiences they had, a good chunk of those spanning throughout their life culminating in their testimony.And my superior I mean, just in the objective sense, yeah.
>>18055607>the conceptOk, I hate the concept of God because I think it is a lazy copout.
>>18055614I think your comment has more to do about Christians than Christianity?
>>18055612Like what, hearing voices? Seeing visions?A guy who's totally jacked is your superior in terms of fitness. A university professor is your superior within his field. A chess grandmaster is your superior in chess. A trained chef is your superior in cooking etc.
>>18055618No, it has more to do with the concept of God.
>>18055620>Like what, hearing voices? Seeing visions?Yeah. We believe those. Most of us at least.>>18055620Fair point. It's all a jumbled mess.
>>18055573christianity overall seems just silly to me, unless you do it to keep family tradition, it doesn't make any sense otherwise, maybe as self improvement doping, all in all, nothing for me in that box
>>18055630This is low level comment, Christianity is undoubtedly (generally) the most realistic, don't give me that talking snake schtick, cause all that's trivial and petty. Dawkins tier.Unless you meant something else by silly?
>>18055637>Christianity is undoubtedly (generally) the most realisticlolwut
>>18055640I think you will do better in some other thread desu.
>>18055637>cause all that's trivial and petty.And yet the founders of your religion believed it.
>>18055643If you want to have a serious thread, don't write shit that reads like a shitpost.
>>18055573>unfilteredIt's created by a genitally mutilated pharisaic rabbi mohel jew from Eastern Turkey and worships what amounts to the devil.>uncoolAll my opinions are cool.
>>18055653>>18055656You folks are something else.
>>18055596>It's hard to apostatize from Christianityfor naggers.
>>18055630>do it to keep family traditionPretty weird choice for a family tradition.
>>18055643Talking ass.
>>18055659Why did your religious founders believe in petty and trivial superstitions though?
>>18055637>if I ignore all the supernatural, christianity is realisticYou're just a mystery cult fedora.
>>18055668This is really not the kind of discussion I want to have at the moment my Niger.
>>18055670>I can't discuss it because it debunks my desert cultUnderstandable
I think its out existed its usefulness in placating the masses of the existential dread that was the dark ages.The mere fact that it's still around is testament that there was no actual Enlightenment Period.
>>18055676Except more people are now non-religious than ever before.
>>18055670>let's talking about a boring topic and strip it of its more interesting aspect
I might still be unfortunate to be stuck where I am but I think it will be good if atheists started a movement called "There is no Hell".It'd really resonate.
>>18055679Allegedly, we're actually past the nadir in the West now, and the younger generations are returning to spirituality (albeit not so much zog religions though).
>>18055684Or "No Hell".With the argument and sentiment that hell is not even possible.Yin Yang type shit maybe?
I have a lot of arsenal for atheists that I have just been keeping to myself because it it'd be like working for the enemy based on truth.It leaks here and there but it never catches on.
>>18055690That's just a cope and/or passing fashion. The trends are clear that religion is on the decline.
>>18055698*in my arsenal
>>18055698Cause it's uncool (for them) like I said.
I could be at most my vulnerable and these fagtheists would still come at with this fagshit.Genuine rabid like mental illness.
>>18055711>I so smart cause I move goalpost
>>18055711>strangers should lie to me to avoid hurting my feefs wew
>>18055711in reality
>>18055725...christbros?
>>18055725The OP here, I totally hear you, saved.
>>18055725I can't accept this after all.
>>18055699I don't think so. For the masses, atheism leads to nihilism or hedonism, both of which are degenerative and lead to few to no kids, so survivorship bias means that the future is spiritual.You essentially can't raise a large family in a healthy tribe without some sort of religion.
>>18055601How can I hate something in which I sont believe exist? I don't hate the idea of God, but I do dislike the Christian interpretation of a monotheistic God and certain Christian practices
>>18055738I hear you.
>>18055738I didn't see atheists as normal beings before.It's all nonsense.
>>18055734That's just blatantly false. There are many countries which are majority irreligious. China is atheist and has the highest population.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion
The pretentious intellectualism was insufferable though.
I wouldn't say I'm an atheist or Christian, or a materialist or non-materialist, I don't know shit about reality, I'm just being me, I'm just a being, being myself.
>>18055743Asian (and polytheistic) "irreligiousness" is different from Western atheism. While the CCP is certainly atheist in the western sense, most Chinese people still follow folk religion and traditions, but they don't believe in a deterministic God like Abrahamics do
>>18055754Now some Atheists or Christian might fight that irksome, seeing as me being myself unacceptable or unacceptable, there lies a dormant standard, eh? Struk a nerve or something? Wink wink.But I've grown beyond the dichotomy.Fuck you.
>>18055743>the West>ChinaAnon, I...
>>18055758>most Chinese people still follow folk religion and traditionsFalse again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_China>More recently, a 2015 Gallup poll found the number of convinced atheists in China to be 61%, with a further 29% saying that they are not religious compared to just 7% who are religious
>>18055763Follow the argument and understand what I'm responding to.
>>18055766>blindly reading numbers on wikipediaNumbers without context mean very little. I just told you that "irreligious" in Asian cultures means "doesn't believe in a deterministic God". Many if not most Chinese participate Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist practices. However, if you asked those same Chinese if they were religious they would say no, because they think you mean if they specifically identify with Buddhism or a western religion. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2024/06/17/religion-and-spirituality-in-east-asian-societies/
>>18055770I was explicitly talking about Western Europeans, not every single featherless biped in the world. If you are doing some raceblind "we all bleed red" shtick, I'm out.
>>18055788>Many if not most Chinese participate Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist practices.So what? Atheists can also celebrate religious festivals because it's a cultural practice. If you read the link you posted https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2024/06/17/beliefs/you'll see that at most only ~30% of the irreligious people said they believed in a God. You are shifting the entire football field to just avoid admitting your mistake in saying that atheists can't have successful societies.
>>18055822NTA. You're not understanding his point. Lack of belief in a God does not preclude them believing in all sorts of other spiritual things that to us would classify as a religion.His point is that you can't blindly transfer these labels across and apply them to vastly different cultures.
>>18055830Being an atheist doesn't preclude believing in spirits and ghosts -- those ideas existed before religions were invented. I'm also not blindly transferring anything; I'm just stating the fact that atheists can and do have successful societies.
Christianity is the religion for old women and brown people now
>>18055838They're still spiritual and religious. The communication problem comes from multiple anons, including you and I, using imprecise terminology and you mixing in foreign cultures for which the terminology is even harder to pin down.In the Western context, when someone says "atheist", they're typically talking about an irreligious, materialist, non-spiritual person who doesn't consciously believe in anything supernatural beyond perhaps some vague notions like horoscopes or whatever.My point is that those kinds of people do not typically have large families nor found multi-generational tribes, clans and nations with their associated traditions. Why would they? They aren't really impelled to do so by anything greater than them.
>>18055849Christianity is, and always will be, the religion of truth.
>>18055882>the religion of truth>brought to you by a genitally mutilated pharisaic rabbi mohel jew from Eastern Turkey
>>18055880> when someone says "atheist", they're typically talking about an irreligious, materialist, non-spiritual personNot really, since even in the West there are many atheists, but most aren't materialists. But I can suppose for this discussion that we're talking about this sort of person. Even if you accept the materialistic view, there is nothing in it that tells you become an actual antinatalist.>Why would they? They aren't really impelled to do so by anything greater than them.If you admit that there is in fact nothing greater than them, then such a thing can't feature in any explanation for why any group of people form successful societies. The atheists will form successful societies for the same materialistic reasons that anyone else does. Insects don't need a religion to reproduce. Humans are no different.
>>18055890>but what about DA JOOOOOOOOOS?!!Take your meds
>>18055880>In the Western context, when someone says "atheist", they're typically talking about an irreligious, materialist, non-spiritual person who doesn't consciously believe in anything supernatural beyond perhaps some vague notions like horoscopes or whatever.No, your pastor lied to you. Again.
>>18055957He's right though
>>18055963He's not.
>>18055913>there are many atheists, but most aren't materialistsIn my experience, people who identify as atheists aren't spiritual in any way.>there is nothing in it that tells you become an actual antinatalist.See, there you are again adding new terms to the conversation. I never said anything about "anti-natalism", simply that they had smaller families, if any.>Humans are no different than insectsI've already said that I am not interested in discussing foreigners. That being said, religion isn't an external thing to the human experience. Hell, it isn't even external to some highly intelligent animals who have proto-religious behavior such as mourning the dead and picking places to go die and whatnot. Obviously bugs don't do that, but we're not bugs.>If you admit that there is in fact nothing greater than them, then such a thing can't feature in any explanation for why any group of people form successful societies.What?>The atheists will form successful societiesThey haven't though. The USSR is the closest to a Western atheistic society we've ever had, and it collapsed in a few generations (and isn't Western).>>18055917>bring up religion made by jews that centers on jews>if you mention those jews you're mentally illno u
>>18055957I'm not christian. Never been. This is just my experience in Europe as well as in America.
>>18055966He is though>>18055978>made by jewsNope>centers on jewsNope>you're mentally illYes
>>18055984Anon, "Paul" is very explicit about this. Don't let /pol/ nu-christian larpers and deradicalization shills tell you otherwise. Just read the bible and see.
>>18055978Your experience is very limited and not a basis make sweeping statements.> simply that they had smaller familiesYou have no evidence for this. Actually, if anything, the opposite is true since religions tend to look down on reproduction and other materialistic instincts (see: Catholic bishops).>I've already said that I am not interested in discussing foreigners.You may not be interested but whatever causes bugs to reproduce is the same thing that causes humans to as well, and trying to say that they reproduce because of religion is just stupid.>They haven't though.I already provided several examples earlier. Go through this link againhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion
>>18056024Here's your successful society bro
>>18056031You really think posting dumb /pol/ memes is an argument? It's no wonder you're religious.
>>18055573I think its going to grow bigger if it isn't already. The modern secular world isn't very fulfilling and is rather evil
>>18055725why does every argument for atheism end up boiling down to>bad thing happen so god not real
>>18056024>Your experience is very limited and not a basis make sweeping statements.Your experience is the only thing you should trust fully. I also did not make sweeping statements and couched my language. If you have proof that most Westerners who identify as atheists also express conscious spiritual beliefs, by all means post it.>Actually, if anything, the opposite is true since religions tend to look down on reproduction Only gnostic ones, which through the aforementioned survivorship bias never gain much of a foothold throughout the generations. See the Albigensians and all the other weird christians who cut off their dicks for jewsus for example.>You have no evidence for thisThere is ample evidence for correlation. Look up the number of children per woman by religious or political affiliation in the US for example.>trying to say that they reproduce because of religion is just stupid.I never did. You seem unable to understand the terms I am using. May I suggest you look them up?The point is that religion/spirituality increases reproductive fitness and social cohesion, not that it is necessary for biological fertilization.>I already provided several examples earlier. None of the Western ones on that list are < 50% non-religious. But current beliefs wouldn't be representative, since most countries except commie ones would have been established as religious societies which grew less and less religious, so they're still running on the fumes and inertia of their existing society.Show me a Western society that was founded as an atheist one, which maintains strict anti-theist laws and culture and lasted even a century.The frogs come to mind, but that obviously failed repeatedly.
>>18056071that wasn't an argument for god not being real, the discussion was about the moral implication of stillborn children going to hell
>>18055661/thread. More christian = more brown people. Simple as.
>>18056080>which maintains strict anti-theist lawsWhy?
>>18056084Christianity says you have to listen to the inner voice deep within, that you're obligated to, but there's also that voice yelling out deep within that screams that they don't deserve hell. None, not a single person does. You physically can't.
>>18056097A society is defined by its laws and mores. Atheism as a state policy would necessarily see strict anti-theist laws like those of the frogs or commies. Otherwise it isn't an atheist society, it's simply a liberal one.
>>18056089Or you could go out and multiply. Sitting alone in your room not trying is letting demons win. A revelation i came to recently
>>18055822>You are shifting the entire football field to just avoid admitting your mistake in saying that atheists can't have successful societiesLMAO, you put those words in my mouth. I am atheist myself. East Asia is not an atheistic society. The government of China is officially atheist but this does not defeat the fact that most Chinese people (just like most Russians during the USSR were still sorta Christian) still practice folk religions. Their ideas of religion and spirituality are vastly different than the West which is why I say that "irreligious" to an Asian is different to "irreligious" from a Westerner. I'm basically repeating this guy's video https://youtu.be/gr0hxKznLTA?si=N5uS2vfhBgpjbRquWhile he only talks about Japan, as someone who is familiar with Chinese culture this also applies to much of East Asia.
>>18056051>the death of my society is a dumb /pol/ memeIn one hundred years your country will not exist, in any form, and atheism is he who pulled the trigger.
>>18056125The clergy are the ones promoting immigration bro
>>18056133It's the one thing atheist liberals, orthodox jews and christians of all denominations can agree on:>infinity naggers le good
>>18056105the voice deep within me also says that jesus didn't resurrect and that hell is not real.
>>18056164NTA, but don't turn it gay by relating with fedora tier shit bruh.
>>18056080> If you have proof that most Westerners who identify as atheists also express conscious spiritual beliefs, by all means post it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_the_United_States"In 2023, Pew stated that 23% of atheists believe in a higher power, but not a god.[14] In 2024, Pew stated that 31% of atheists believe in a sprit or soul.[15]">There is ample evidence for correlationhttps://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-3-demographic-profiles-of-religious-groupsYou can see that atheists have 1.7 children on average, whereas the religious have 2.2. This is not a big enough difference to show anything. Agnostics have 1.3 religion, which should be come as a surprise under your hypothesis. Also, fertility rates are decreasing because of industrialization and how labor is now organized. Religion has nothing to do with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate#History_and_future_projections>The point is that religion/spirituality increases reproductive fitness and social cohesionYou don't have any evidence for that. >But current beliefs wouldn't be representative, since most countries except commie ones would have beenNotice how many goal posts you need to shift. Anyway, the fallacy you're using has a name: post hoc ergo propter hoc.>which maintains strict anti-theist laws There's nothing in atheism which requires "anti-theist laws". >>18056110>Otherwise it isn't an atheist society, it's simply a liberal one.So your examples of modern religious societies are also not religious societies, since they don't have anti-atheist laws (unless you think only muslim societies are religious).>>18056125Delusional.
>>18056105>Christianity says you have to listen to the inner voice deep withinWho told you this?
>>18056071Because they are irrational.
>>18056171lol ok. i was baptized as a child into eastern orthodox faith, in the same church that baptized my parents and my grandparents that did funeral mass for all of my dead relatives. i was a lifelong christian and abandoned my faith precisely because when confronted with the question, i could not affirm that jesus indeed rose from the dead, because my deep inner voice told me so. it has nothing to do with your perception of the average atheist online.
>>18055725Everything I said there was true and it was correct and appropriate. Tragedy doesn't give you an excuse to rebel against God. That's not how it works. Your daughter's death was because of the unnatural character of nature, inflicted on it by the sins of man. You say you've "made peace with" a world that is cruel, meaningless and evil by nature, yet are offended by the prospect of one which was created perfect, tainted by man, and which shall be restored. The reason is because what you've really made peace with is your own immorality and have disgustingly made all this an excuse for it. Your illegitimate grievances with God are incoherent because of the incoherent character of your excuse; God is vindictive and cruel, so what? People are just sacks of protoplasm, so who cares? There is no holy divine moral law, just brutal uncaring chance, so why care? You oppose yourself.Nobody is punished for evil they didn't commit. Original sin is not that you are punished because of what Adam did but because of your broken covenant. And you, most certainly, are guilty of things you did do for which you are under the wrath of God, some of which are documented by your screencap. Do not delude yourself as to think you have any excuse for your sins or that He shall not justly repay them.Your dislike of Christianity grew because you hate the light and love darkness.
>>18056193>i could not affirm that jesus indeed rose from the dead, because my deep inner voice told me soWould be very inconvenient for its love of sin wouldn't it
>>18056176I concede that by a narrow margin, the slim majority of US atheists believe in the absolute minimum that qualifies as spiritual. That is much higher than I would have expected.I personally would not qualify the 23% as atheist though, since I see no difference between a god and a higher (spiritual) power. On this side of the pond, I doubt that anyone would call themselves an atheist and express belief in a divine power at the same time.>This is not a big enough difference to show anythingIt's over 25% more than the atheist group and is (just) over the replacement rate. Hypothetically assuming no further changes, the atheist group will die out and the religious group with sustain itself.That's my whole point.>AgnosticsLet's not muddy the waters.> Also, fertility rates are decreasing because of industrialization and how labor is now organized.Last I checked, this affected everyone regardless of religious views. Multiple factors can be true at once.>You don't have any evidence for that.You just provided the evidence for that point though.>Notice how many goal posts you need to shift.>There's nothing in atheism which requires "anti-theist laws".It's not at all a goalpost move, it's simply my opinion on how we define an [belief system] society. As a general rule, it has to be founded on that belief system for the society to be classed as such. If 90% of the population believes in BLUE IDEA but the ruling elite, the institutions, the laws, etc reflect YELLOW IDEA, then the society isn't a BLUE society.>unless you think only muslim societies are religiousI pretty much do. The West is liberal, meaning essentially that we're founded on absolute nothingness, neither atheism nor theism, neither BLUE nor YELLOW. It's just a gay shitshow.
>>18055676I'd like to add that I find Christianity to be a contemptible religion. The idea that salvation from a fate worse than death after death is only attainable if you believe in some dead narcissist whos main appeal is having died for us but cheapening that death by coming back to life a few days later is disgustingly self aggrandizing.
>>18056382
>>18056210you were talking to me about stillbirth, not the screenshot poster. >Tragedy doesn't give you an excuse to rebel against Godi've renounced faith before that, not related to stillbirth.>The reason is because what you've really made peace with is your own immorality and have disgustingly made all this an excuse for iti've made peace with it because i understand that things can happen outside of my control and i have to deal with the consequences of that, i cannot control nature and biology. >illegitimate grievances with Godare there legitimate grievances with god? if not, then your statement makes no sense. > God is vindictive and cruel, so what?the one described in the bible and explained by christians like you? yes>People are just sacks of protoplasm, so who cares? i didn't say that btw, you assume this to be my position> There is no holy divine moral law, just brutal uncaring chance, so why care?divine moral law has nothing to do with stillbirth rates. look at stillbirth rates across countries in the entire world - you'll see that the more advanced medicine and social welfare is, the lower the rates are. they have no relation to anything divine. each year medicine discovers more to try and reduce that number to 0, vs the christian answer of "whatever, just make sure you beg for forgiveness">for which you are under the wrath of Godmy daughter deserved to die so god could spite me for not believing in him? am i getting you right? >Your dislike of Christianity grew because you hate the light and love darkness.no, it grew because you made a case for how dogmatically cruel and psychotically evil your god's design of sin and humanity's relation to it is
>>18055603Show me a person like that that says so, and doesn't in the next breath say every imaginable blasphemy about God. In fact show me any atheists who's not a blasphemer. It doesn't exist. They say things like they would rather go to (enjoy) hell than worship the God of the Bible.
>>18056751Ignoring your insane logic, I was an earnest seeker. I went to church every week for almost a year. I read the bible. I watched all the youtube goyslop. I found a bunch of nonsensical jewish lore that I couldn't relate to at all.Then I realized that I wasn't a jew, so I read some European authors instead. That helped.
>>18055725Atheists are the type of people who are so full of bitterness and whining that it's off the charts. Rebuke a wise man and he will love thee the Bible says. When does an atheist love someone who rebukes him, never. Instead they become even more bitter than they used to be. Sad, very sad people.
>>18056779Well, why those things and not some crazy scientology or whatever some weirdos are into? What made you chose seeking Christianity out of all the religions out there? Why not go to a mosque and dress funny and take the Quran and have your wife look like a garbage bag? After all, you atheists always tell me that Christianity is no different than other religions and they're all equally likely to be true. How would you even know what to seek? But just by a random chance you chose Christianity.
>>18056819People are more likely to choose a religion that is part of their history and culture. That's why majority of the middle east is muslim and most of India is hindu. you can't seriously imply that just choosing christianity is some sort of indicator that it's actually the true religion.
>>18056829So the anon was not even seeking truth to begin with, he was just seeking the religion he was brought up in which defeats his whole argument.
>>18056833you're again implying that the ultimate truth lies with christianity because you're convinced of it yourself. "the bible is true because it says it's true", ain't that right my man?
>>18056842What about the fact that people in all kinds of cultures and backgrounds convert to fundamentalist Christianity just because someone preached the Bible to them? Yeah the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true, and if you don't like that then you can go to (enjoy) hell by all means.
>>18056855> fact that people in all kinds of cultures and backgrounds convert to fundamentalist Christianity islam is spreading at a faster rate than christianity, does that mean it's true?>Yeah the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true, and if you don't like that then you can go to (enjoy) hell by all means.like clockwork, every time.
>>18056862Christianity shrinks which just makes it more believable because the Bible never says that the number of Christians should be huge, instead it says quite the opposite. People become more rotten in the end times than they ever used to be, so if there's some other religion that grows faster than Christianity it makes perfect sense. If people become evil rotten people in the end times like Bible predicted, of course they're not gonna want to seek the truth of Christianity & the Bible.
>>18056883nice and airtight lol. but if there were more christians that would also be good because the word of god is clearly spreading? >it makes perfect sensekek
>>18056819>What made you chose seeking Christianity out of all the religions out there?I honestly thought christianity was at least partially European (unlike Islam, which I knew was fully semitic). I was mistaken, but it was an honest mistake.>But just by a random chance you chose Christianity.No, I'm European. Christianity is the only extant religion we are culturally exposed to at all (ignoring the fact that a majority of what we think of as christian is non-biblical and entirely surviving European traditions). It's also pushed incessantly on youtube by your Ben Shapiros and Dennis Pragers and whatnot, and presented as based in a variety of Hollywood movies.>you atheistsI'm not an atheist.>>18056833>the religion he was brought up inI wasn't brought up christian in any meaningful sense of the word.>>18056855>the Bible is true because the Bible says it's trueIt's jewish because it says it's jewish, and I'm not.>>18056894kek
>>18056779>Ignoring your insane logic, I was an earnest seeker. I went to church every week for almost a year. I read the bible. I watched all the youtube goyslop. I found a bunch of nonsensical jewish lore that I couldn't relate to at all.>Then I realized that I wasn't a jew, so I read some European authors instead. That helped.The problem is that you were already a homosexual at that point, so you were beyond salvation. No amount of Bible reading or preaching could have saved you. You're done. Tick tock!
