Was Marx redpilled on immigration?>Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.>And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm
>>18058823Marx was a refugee.
>This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organisation. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.He was sadly a bluepilled jewish cuckold by saying that based anti-immigration is artificial and not in favor of the national proletariat.What a fucking retard. He understands that capitalists would rather hire cheaper labour-power desperate for employment yet does not understand that the standards of living of the national proles lowering down causes them to join the agents of reaction, all while the English workers are literally the majority, THE PROLETARIAT.
>>18058860*(((refugee)))ftfy
>>18058860Please, no meme replies.
>>18058874He litterally was though?
>>18058870It seems that Marx accepts that "[immigration] forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class" to be fact. He then says that the ruling classes play the competition to their benefit, which is also correct. However, his final conclusion is that the English working class should just brush aside these antagonistic tendencies and target the ruling class and nothing should be done about immigrant labour. It's very peculiar why he would make a correct diagnosis of the problem but not reach the natural conclusion, I suppose he was very preoccupied with his binary class-struggle framework and also that anti-immigration was harder to conceptualize at the time.
>>18058892On the other hand he doesn't seem to care that the end of the class struggle would also spill the end of this immigrant labour class. So perhaps he was just indifferent as he was on many other issues.
>>18058892>It's very peculiar why he would make a correct diagnosis of the problem but not reach the natural conclusionThe correct conclusion is that the ruling class is triple dipping on the working class' pockets. They set up the extractive regime in Ireland that drives the Irish abroad and they are the ones that use the conflict between Irish and British labour to pay neither side a living wage.They also get cash money from Parliament for their colonial ventures in Ireland, which again comes out of taxes put on both Irish and British labour in Great Britain.
>>18058823He was against "economic immigration" which is capitalists using people as a reserve army of labour.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour
>>18058823Karl Marx was a jew
Leftists were overwhelmingly anti-immigrantion until the 1950s because immigrants work for lower wages (thus, reducing the average wage in that industry) and reduced the labor demand.Rightoids were (and still are) anti-immigration too, but solely because the immigrants were non-White, just enough mild opposition to not contradict their Capitalist overlords who they worship and favored immigration to reduce costs.
>>18058823Follow that link and see what his proposed solution is:>England, the metropolis of capital, the power which has up to now ruled the world market, is at present the most important country for the workers’ revolution, and moreover the only country in which the material conditions for this revolution have reached a certain degree of maturity. It is consequently the most important object of the International Working Men’s Association to hasten the social revolution in England. The sole means of hastening it is to make Ireland independent. Hence it is the task of the International everywhere to put the conflict between England and Ireland in the foreground, and everywhere to side openly with Ireland. It is the special task of the Central Council in London to make the English workers realise that for them the national emancipation of Ireland is not a question of abstract justice or humanitarian sentiment but the first condition of their own social emancipation.>[...]>You have wide field in America for work along the same lines. A coalition of the German workers with the Irish workers (and of course also with the English and American workers who are prepared to accede to it) is the greatest achievement you could bring about now. This must be done in the name of the International. The social significance of the Irish question must be made clear.
>>18058870I don’t think Marx understood the danger the mass scale immigration of a religious populace poses. Take Europe for example, I find it hard to believe he would approve of Islamist forces which went from being nonexistent to being powerful within Europe, due to immigration.
>>18058823Most (actual) Marxists either didn't give a shit about or were opposed to immigration. For Example, the Australian section of the second Internationale were some of the fiercest opponents to non-white Labour in Australia, and alongside the rest of the labour movement, were fervent supporters of the creation of a unified, White Australia
>>18058892I think part of the issue is that anti-immigrant but pro-worker (or at least their own native worker) socialists are caught in a Catch-22, because the antagonism towards the immigrant workers is encouraged by capitalists to get the native workers to side with them rather than their "fellow" workers anyways. For example he describes the English workers as having become "a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland" and making an analogy to "poor whites" in the southern states in America.At any rate, his solution is to throw in with Irish independence since the conflict between England and Ireland was the root of the problem, and he sided with underdog / oppressed Ireland against England.Then there's another section in there where he says the International should build a coalition in America between German and Irish immigrant workers "with the English and American workers who are prepared to accede to it." He wasn't on the side of Bill the Butcher and his nativist gang. (Okay that was dramatized in the movie but Marx was contemporaneous with these events.)
Marx and Engels were racists that supported colonialism and wanted Irish and Slavs to be exterminated. It doesn't matter, Marxists will ignore it and cope as they do.
>>18059277That's true but all keep in mind that the 2nd International imploded because the socialist parties in it tended to vote to side with their respective governments when they went to war in 1914. This is a recurring problem for revolutionary-minded socialists where you have antagonism between states and the trade unions sell out and support their respective governments as workers are sent off to be slaughtered like cows. There was a whole thing during the Vietnam War where hardhat construction workers would beat up anti-war protesters, there was a documentary about this recently:https://youtu.be/07holVlIorYAnyhow, I don't know what Marx would think about all of that. I'm not sure he would've opposed Germany in World War I. Maybe he would've.
>>18059301No, he supported Irish independence but also supported some Slavic peoples like Poland. He was big into Polish independence from Russia which he saw as a reactionary bulwark of the ancien regimes across Europe. I think he wrote something about trying to unite Europe in a crusade against Russia which is very funny in retrospect.
>>18059301Honestly desu Engels would have been shot in literally every socialist country that ever rose to power, his opinions are not worth taking very seriously
>>18058823Based find. Liberals on suicide watch.
>>18059333For me the Anti-Duhring is the best Marxian work, even though it was written by Engels, because it offers an insight to their motivations and inspirations.
>>18059349>liberals>giving the slightest shit about Marx
>>18059333>>18059350I particularly enjoy how Engels reconciled the emergence of Marxism with Great Man Theory in one of his letters:>(b) Men make their own history but until now not with collective will according to a collective plan. Not even in a definitely limited given society. Their strivings are at cross purposes with each other, and in all such societies there therefore reigns a necessity, which is supplemented by and manifests itself in the form of contingency. The necessity which here asserts itself through all those contingencies is ultimately, again, economic. Here we must treat of the so-called great man. That a certain particular man and no other emerges at a definite time in a given country is naturally pure chance. But even if we eliminate him, there is always a need for a substitute, and the substitute is found tant bien que mal; in the long run he is sure to be found. That Napoleon – this particular Corsican – should have been the military dictator made necessary by the exhausting wars of the French Republics that was a matter of chance. But that in default of a Napoleon, another would have filled his place, that is established by the fact that whenever a man was necessary he has always been found: Caesar, Augustus, Cromwell, etc. Marx, to be sure, discovered the materialistic conception of history – but the examples of Thierry, Mignet, Guizot, the whole school of English historians up to 1850 show they were working towards it; and the discovery of the same conception by Morgan serves as proof that the time was ripe for it, and that it had to be discovered.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/letters/94_01_25a.htm
Crazy how mass migration to Britain was happening then, and is still happening today.
>>18059350>For me the Anti-Duhring is the best Marxian workGenuine mental illness on display.
>>18059630Its hard to imagine after industrialization and the luddite movement that there was a labor shortage. What were thier existing workers doing? Drinking themselves to death? Getting shipped to Australia? Was it just Capitalist hand driving wages down?
>>18059356don't respond to obviously American posters
>>18059356modern Western Marxists are in reality liberalsyou can't be Marxist and pro-immigration
>>18058823Honestly kind of surprising when the Marxists of today are so open borders, when the old ones and the comintern pact countries were very strict on immigration
>>18059721Comintern countries were all underdeveloped and still had lots of peasants like China does. The few that were more or less urbanized did take migrants from other communist countries most notably Vietnam
>>18058892Marx's solution to immigration was to campaign for national independence and for a ban on paying immigrants less than native workers.
>>18058823Nu Marxist requires migrants as a minority that fights against the majority, the citizens of a country.
>>18059662Well, the gin craze was a social problem in some areas, but not the main explanation.
