You can't forgive God for what this man decided to do with his gift of free will? God had nothing to do with it. Yes, you can use your free will to rape kids, genocide millions, torture animals, whatever you want. Humans decided to live in sin from the get go, so this is our reality now.

>>18059976
>You can't forgive God for what this man decided to do with his gift of free will?
There is no free will

>>18059964
I would look this man deep in the eyes and demand from him why he didn't do it to a Volga Tartar, shameful pathetic display from a white man/

>>18060103
Proof?

>>18060125
John Calvin

>>18060140
>Calvinism is the only Christian denomination
And what of all the other denominations that do not agree with his doctrine?

>>18060140
Calvin, to put it into modern parlance, said that non whites aren't eligible to be part of the body of Christ because they are not the dwelling place of the Spirit which is of God and was called by the Son to form the body of Christ. Therefore it is not a matter of you having no free will, but that God knows his own from before they are ever born.

>>18060125
>Proof?
The first law of physics.

God does not need you to forgive him, he expects you to forgive others.

>>18060103
Without free will there can be no true obedience, only an empty mockery of the idea.
An inanimate tool does not obey the hand of it's wielder, because it has no will of it's own with which to submit.
If you tell a tool to do something, it will simply lie there.
Whereas a faithful servant does autonomously obey the commandments of his lord especially he's not around to watch him, because he has the ability to choose either compliance or defiance while the lord is away from the house.

Likewise, without free will it is impossible to truly forgive or repent.
If your mother ever forced you as a child to say sorry to someone when you didn't mean it, or to likewise accept an apology you knew to be mere pretense just to make you stop fighting and behave, you would understand that simply doesn't count.
It is written that God is more pleased with obedience than burnt offerings for a reason. For that matter, sacrifice itself would be meaningless if it were literally just a puppet show.
Abraham was never forced by God to offer his firstborn, he willingly bound him and raised up the knife. Any other interpretation collapses immediately and becomes vain pretense devoid of true meaning. In fact, it is quite clear from the very start of the chapter that God is explicitly testing Abraham's faith. This would be impossible if free will had no part to play in it.

God is not playing with dolls. We have his own animating breath, being made in his own image.

>>18060140
23 Because it is like the sin of witchcraft, to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey. Forasmuch therefore as thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, the Lord hath also rejected thee from being king.

Calvin was a rebel, and knew nothing of true obedience or faith.
For all his posing and polemics about idolatry, Saul was still far more righteous than he.

>>18059976
If a person creates a robot who is programmed to want to rape and kill kids, do you blame the robot or the person who created it?

>>18060216
Expand on your thought

>inb4 but God hardened Pharaoh's heart

Sure thing. That is within his power.
But in no sense does something being within your power mean you absolutely have to do it in all cases whatsoever.
In fact, if you had to do something in all cases that would mean that it is actually not within your power, but rather than you are in it's power.
God is not a dumb machine that does the same thing in the same way in all cases. He is alive.

Basically, this is something God CAN do but something he usually does only in extraordinary circumstances. Meaning, most of the time he simply doesn't.
The reason God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he wouldn't let them go, was to demonstrate to the children of Israel his power over the Egyptian gods as represented in the ten plagues.
He demonstrated this power over their respective domains so that the children of Israel would see and believe in him alone, that they would not retain the idolatry of Egypt as they left the country.

Of course, we see later on that they melt all their Egyptian gold into a massive idol just as soon as Moses wasn't in their immediate vicinity for a certain length of time while receiving the terms and law of their covenant.
They were an unfaithful generation, despite witnessing all these great signs. And later, when they refuse to enter the promised land for fear of the strength of Canaan, this generation was made to wander in the desert until they died. Their children, who did not witness these signs, would inherit the land.

>>18060280
A robot would make this kind of post.
Some mindless machine, not a real man.

God made Adam a living soul, not a machine.

>>18060280
>programmed to want to rape and kill kids
Except we aren't programmed. By your logic he would have done his crimes as soon as he walked. We programmed ourselves.

>>18060293
>a normal person simply wakes up one day and decides to start being a pedophile

You probably also think homosexuality is a choice

>>18060293
A robot literally cannot conceive of mankind having a spark of the divine within them.
That a part of God's own sovereign will was given freely to Adam when he breathed life into his created form.
There is no point in trying to argue with a robot. You'd get further yelling at a stone, unironically.

>>18060302
Desiring something is not something you can choose.
Acting on it is.
Avoiding a thing which is evil is often as simple as choosing to walk away, to reorient your route so that you never even draw near.

plenty of people face temptation every day and simply say no
they do not give in
some of them depend on Jesus for the strength to be free of this bondage
the truth will set you free

>>18060288
>Expand on your thought
Sorry, it's actually the third law of physics. All actions have reactions, all things are the consequences of all the things that happened prior and nothing else, including all the thoughts in your head, and the thoughts after those, and the thoughts that happen once you read this sentence. It's all one big chain of causation.

>>18060314
>plenty of people face temptation every day and simply say no
In 1 Corinthians 10:13, it says this:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

This means that the faithful will not be burdened with a temptation beyond what they can handle. It says God will always give them a way of escape. Similarly, in 2 Peter it says: "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (2 Peter 2:9).

So basically, those who are in God's will are protected from temptations beyond what they are able, and God always gives them a way of escape. This isn't true in general, as those who are reprobate (see Romans 1:26-28) are given up to "vile affections." These would be the people who had their chance, but squandered it. For such people, there is only judgement, if the New Testament is to be sincerely believed. This would include those "given up by God" unto things like sodomy (again, see Romans 1:26-28). Although these people had a chance at one point to be saved and had grace showed to them (according to John 3:16, they had at one point been loved), they have lost that protection and are now vessels of wrath, fit only for destruction (see 2 Peter 2:12, Romans 9:21-22). Thus, they are warped into wretched sodomites – child-molesting beasts with no self control who should be executed; and, indeed, it had been better for them if they had never been born.

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>>18060302
According to Romans 1, there are people who reject God and who end up as "reprobates," meaning they have gone beyond the point of no return. If you want to believe what Paul says there, this is real. When God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, that was only after he had hardened his own heart prior to that; he had made his choice, he'd had his chance and opportunity to do differently. God was going to be glorified, and if Pharaoh was determined to rebel against God's purposes, God can still use that according to the Bible.

It's the same for anyone else, really.

>>18060178
And his own world be Anglos.
Called to form the body of a levantine.
Is this a complex form of cuckery?

>>18060253
>you have free will
>but also I'll torture you forever in a pit of eternal fire if you don't do what I want
Sounds like God doesn't really respect the idea of free will at all in that case, most people would call that "coercion". Also if we're created in God's image and we always want to sin all the time that really says more about God than it does us.

>>18060614
>form the body
The body composed of its members, Christ, is the living God which uses for itself the name of God to justify that which ensures their everlasting life and dominion over their kingdom of heaven that has been upon the earth established for them.

God approves everything bad that happens clearly, he is all powerful and knows everything that will ever happen or what people will do with their lives. He knowingly still created these people that he knew would commit evil, he let it happen even though he could stop. Nobody has free will in world where you entire existence is preordained and permitted by an absolute creator.

Christiana are retarded as they could easily escape the problem of evil and free will if they just acknowledged that God is not all good and is in fact ambivalent to good or bad.

>>18059964
God is not omnipotent. He is a fellow sufferer who understands.

>>18059964
You love sex, you are obsessed with it, you worship it and live for it. Yet sex is a simple invention of God, not even the greatest invention, just a plain mundane invention that he allows even street dogs and rats and racoons to enjoy and experience.

So if a simple mundane creation of God is so marvelous to you that you obsessively love and worship it, then imagine how freaking amazed you will be when you meet the one who created such thing that you live so much.

If you re mind blown with a single gift God gave to even squirrels and racoons, then imagine how mindblowingly amazed you will be about the gifts that he gives to those who he loves the most. Gifts that are literally holy and sacred.


Compared to the greatest gifts God gives, sex is merely crumbs off the table of God, yet you literally worship this crumb from God's plate, so imagine then how amazing the actual greatest gift of god is.

All I am saying is that no matter what argument the Satan's plant in your head to make you reject God, the day you stand before his glory you will be so amazed that all you will want is to be with him forever.

When you see the amazing gifts the creator or sex and love and joy and peace and laughter and happiness and all good things gives to those who remained loyal to him then you will never forgive yourself for not seeking him and being loyal to him too.

If you love the gift of sex which God gave even to lizards and roaches on earth imagine how much more will you love the actual greatest gifts that God gives out to the holy and humble and righteous who obey and love him.

My friend, you have no idea what you're rejecting. The evil demons who already lost God are so envious of you for still having the opportunity to be with God that they are spoiling that oportunity for you so you'll lose him to and be as miserable as them.

God is truly the most beautiful thing in all of existence. You will never forgive yourself for losing him.

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>>18060253
God was testing Abraham to know if Abraham feared him, and because Abraham proved that he did in fact fear him, God made his descendants the eternal rulers of earth forever placed above the rest of mankind.

So truly the most righteous thing you could ever do in life is fear God.

>>18060302
You know diabetics are attracted to sugar yet spend their lives avoiding sugar to survive. You too can also choose to avoid homosexual sex despite being attracted to it.

Your soul is in as much danger from homosexual sex than a diabetics body is in danger of dying from sugar.

If you had to endure all these wicked temptations and desires all your life because you loved God so much that you wanted to please and obey him and you was victorious at the end, do you know how much will God love and praise you in the day of judgement? Can you image me the upmost compassion God will have for you? "Look how much this man was willing to endure for me, because he went so far to try to please me so I will now please him with all good things for all eternity."

You will be a legend in heaven, even before you die you will be extremely famous among the angels and spirits and they will become your biggest fans and surround you and defend you from Satan. In hesven you will be a great celebrity among the holy and your glory will come from God himself.

>>18060532
Pharaoh hardened his heart when he decided to enslave and oppression Israel.

>>18060649
>I respect your decision of doing evil
Why would God do that? Why do you think you should have the right to choose to do evil and wickeness? Evil pollutes the land and attracts wicked spirits, so when you engage in sin you are harming your whole country who is now polluted with sin and cursed.

You are a newborn before God and God is teaching you what is good and what is bad, trust him.

>>18059976
So tsunamis and earthquakes happen because of my free will?

>>18059964
Free will

>>18061657
>Free will
There is no free will.

>>18061126
Actually, the myth has yahweh hardening his heart, making yahweh responsible for it.
Also, it never happened.

>>18059976
If i have this free will, why then i am forced to exist against my so called free will?
Why i am denied choice to not exist if i have free will?

>>18061748
there is no free will. there is predestination, but we have “free will” within that which was already envisioned within God’s eyes before creation

>>18061123
Its very hard to love god that allows satan to rule this world.
You need to betray your own concience for that or have none to begin with
Its just not right, its wrong and evil and you know it if you have any shred of concience.

>>18061817
>Also, it never happened
In official, mainstream narrative on history.

>>18060253
>free will
I absolutely don't consent to satan ruling this world and everything slowly turning to shit, but here we fucking are.
There is no free will, its a lie.

>>18060253
You cannot truly commit suicide, you will exist regardless if you want it or not.
So i am not really sure why do you think we have free will or where you got such utterly retarded idea.

>>18062691
Free will doesn’t mean we control everything. It just means we have the ability to choose good or evil. You can’t control what others do or what Satan does, but you can control who you serve and what kind of person you become.

>>18062647
It's hard for you to love a God who allows evil? Imagine how hard it is for him to see his own creations that he loves unconditionally, constantly reject him and spit in his face. God doesn't enjoy watching people suffer. He literally limited his own power to become a human, feel the pain we go through, shed tears once he saw how corrupt we are, and gave his own life just out of love for you.

>>18062748
>God doesn't enjoy watching people suffer.
So why he allows it then?

>>18062748
>It just means we have the ability to choose good or evil
If its just purely that, in such case its its not a free will, but merely ability to choose good or evil.
So if i have free will, why i am denied choice to reject my own existence or afterlife?

>>18062791
>I do not have free will since I am forced to breathe air and eat food and cannot choose to do so
Cool logic.

>>18062855
>no arguements
>passive agressive tone
I accept that as your concession.

>>18062855
If you in the end can only choose evil or good then you don't have a free will.

>>18062900
What is the alternative to good or bad? There is none.

>>18063670
It's neutral. If I gave you a pile of stones, that you could use for anything you wanted, it would be a neutral gesture. You could use them for good or evil.

>>18062529
Why do you want to stop existing?
Life is God's will and God's gift

>>18061130
>>I respect your decision of doing evil
If I was made in God's image and my first instinct was to be evil (defined entirely as not blindly obeying God without question) all the time and not do good, that again says more about him than me.

>Why do you think you should have the right to choose to do evil and wickeness?
You can't just say "free will exists" and then immediately turn around and say "you don't have the right to be evil" because free will implies exactly that.

>so when you engage in sin you are harming your whole country who is now polluted with sin and cursed.
If you still believe in medieval superstitions like curses at your age (I'm assuming you're old enough to be posting on 4chan) that explains a lot.

>You are a newborn before God
I'm an adult (I'm aware that God is much older and wiser than me, though if he's anything like how you describe I question the second part) and if God isn't going to treat me as one then I'm not going to treat him as God. Respect goes both ways and if my father still insisted on infantalising me, going with me everywhere I went and tucking me into bed at night at my age I would kick him out of his own house and check him into a nursing home because he's clearly lost his mind.

>and God is teaching you what is good and what is bad
If he's God then he doesn't have to teach me like this, he can just beam it telepathically into my head directly and in my opinion he does just this through our own intuitive understanding of morality (objective morality exists even without an omnipotent being in the clouds to enforce it, you don't need the fear of Hell to be a good person and if you do then you're probably not a good person).

>trust him.
I'll trust him and not a random 4chan post from an anoymous stranger.

I'm not an atheist, before you start accusing me or heresy or witchcraft or irrationally hating Christ or whatever word you want to throw at people who say things you don't like.

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>>18063836
>that again says more about him than me.
It speaks to the fact you are a sinner and, in a manner of speaking, a corrupted tree that can only bring forth corrupt fruit. And the reason for this is explained in the Bible as being due to Adam's actions, not because of the image of God.

>You can't just say "free will exists" and then immediately turn around and say "you don't have the right to be evil" because free will implies exactly that.
I'm not that anon, but nobody is questioning the fact that people are capable of it, which is what you're reiterating. The thing is, even if it's POSSIBLE to choose to do evil and wickedness (which we've already established), there's still no excuse for it. People have the ability, but never have the right, to do those things.

>you don't need the fear of Hell to be a good person and if you do then you're probably not a good person
Two things here. The fact you only think you are "probably" right about what a good person is shows how uncertain even you are about your own judgement. Maybe you should rethink your judgements on this topic if you are not certain of what a good person is.

Also, your statement implies that hell can only exist as a means to scare people, with no other possible purpose. Matthew 25:41 directly contradicts this. It's meant as a punishment for God to enact justice, as well as pour out His righteous wrath on those deserving it. It is fearsome because of that, yes. But there are reasons for it to exist that have nothing to do with affecting your psychology. There are also many other reasons given in the Bible to serve the Creator, for example, because he created you and sent his only-begotten Son to save you, and according to the Bible, is also the source of life itself. It's inaccurate to suggest or assume that the biblical hell only exists for its effect on your psychology, or to assume that it is presented as the sole reason why someone should be good, because that's not even what the Bible says.

>>18063887
>It speaks to the fact you are a sinner
We're all sinners, including me, this is kind of a basic point in Christianity. If you think you're not because you believe the "right" things that's itself a sin.

>And the reason for this is explained in the Bible as being due to Adam's actions, not because of the image of God.
Eve's actions, actually (although if you want to think like that it was actually the serpent) and these actions were motivated and informed by being made in the image of God.

>The thing is, even if it's POSSIBLE to choose to do evil and wickedness (which we've already established), there's still no excuse for it.
There's no excuse for creating sapient ensouled life with the express purpose of having it obey you forever but also giving it free will (but leaving the threat of excruciating pain forever dangling over its head if it ever so much as thinks of disobeying you) so it chooses to never leave your side out of fear because that's genuinely sadistic and most people would call that "child abuse".

>The fact you only think you are "probably" right about what a good person is shows how uncertain even you are about your own judgement.
I don't generally cast judgement on wide groups of people without qualifying it with a word like "probably".

>Matthew 25:41 directly contradicts this.
It really doesn't but okay.

>There are also many other reasons given in the Bible to serve the Creator, for example, because he created you and sent his only-begotten Son to save you, and according to the Bible, is also the source of life itself.
And they're wrong because believe or not the Bible isn't actually a source of ultimate truth because it's written by men and not by God (he may have "inspired" some of it but that doesn't mean the entire book dropped out of the clouds fully formed one day and hit Paul in the head).

Honestly the fact you posted a picture of fire makes it seem like you're just another "Enjoy hell :)" poster and I'm wasting my time.

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>>18064034
>If you think you're not because you believe the "right" things that's itself a sin.
According to the Bible, the wrath of God is against all unrighteousness without exception, including all of us. I've accepted the forgiveness given to me. Try telling me what verse in the Bible says that is a sin?

>these actions were motivated and informed by being made in the image of God.
I would disagree. I don't think you can show us where the Bible says that. I however can show you right away where it says the opposite about the image of God. Notice the second verse below:

"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."
(Colossians 3:9-11)

>There's no excuse for creating sapient ensouled life with the express purpose of having it obey you forever
I would counter that the purpose of creating the world was actually to glorify God. Glorifying God is possible even by those who choose to rebel, as it says: every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
(Philippians 2:5-11)

>>18064034
>so it chooses to never leave your side out of fear because that's genuinely sadistic and most people would call that "child abuse".
See the last paragraph in >>18063887 again.

>>Matthew 25:41 directly contradicts this.
>It really doesn't but okay.
Matthew 25:41 states that the eternal fire which they are being cast into was originally created for the devil and his angels. That has nothing to do with you or any human.

If the Bible is true, you can't assume it's saying things it's clearly not. And it's clearly not saying hell was created to scare you into belief. It clearly says in Matthew 25:41 why it was originally created. If you reject that, that just means you're rejecting the Bible as a whole. It means you are not actually trying to make sense out of it, even if you're pretending to do so here; it simply means you're choosing to pre-emptively flat out reject it and to insert your own theories instead, even if you pretend not to be. That isn't exactly what ascertaining the truth looks like.

>And they're wrong because believe or not the Bible isn't actually a source of ultimate truth
Then why are you talking about sin? Why talk about all this other stuff?
>(he may have "inspired" some of it but that doesn't mean the entire book dropped out of the clouds fully formed one day and hit Paul in the head).
I don't think anyone claims this. Rather, it says something more like the following:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

>>18063680
You equate a pile of stones to life? There is a big difference from an inanimate object vs something alive. A human has two choices, it can do good or evil, there is no in between.

>>18059964
What gives you, a creation of God, the right to pass judgement on God? God has not wronged you, it is impossible for him to. You simply do not like the fact that someone's free will has caused evil. We do live in a fallen world, so of course there will be evil caused by humans.

>>18059964
God didn't make the world a daycare for your fee-fees.

Free will exists. Humans are the ones raping, murdering, and starting wars. Blaming God for our own choices is the ultimate cope for refusing to take responsibility.

Tsunamis and cancer aren't evil, they are just physics and biology. The world has natural laws and without them, existence itself wouldn't function.

If you can recognize evil, you must have an objective standard for good. Where do you think that standard comes from? God. Checkmate atheist.

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>>18065514
>What gives you, a creation of God, the right to pass judgement on God?
The book of Job says this as well. This is notable since it's also one of the first books to be written in the Bible, if not the first book.

"Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
16 If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.
17 Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
18 Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
19 How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands."
(Job 34:10-19)

The Author of existence can't really be criticized by those who were created by that Author, who is called God. Even common sense dictates this.