>No, pleasure was the mediator even of their friendship. At any rate, when Achilles was lamenting the death of Patroclus, his unrestrained feelings made him burst out with the truth and say "The converse of our thighs my tears do mourn with duteous piety."
— Ps-Lucian, Amores, 54

>Alexander laid a wreath on Achilles' tomb and Hephaestion on Patroclus', hinting that he was Alexander's eromenos, as Patroclus was of Achilles.
— Aelian, Varia Historia, 12.7

>Again by your delicious lips I supplicate you... We’ll be to one another like Achilles and his friend.
Theocritus, Idyll, 29

Socrates in Xenophon's Symposium argues against the notion that the two were lovers:
>Or again, Niceratus, Homer pictures us Achilles looking upon Patroclus not as the object of his passion but as a comrade, and in this spirit signally avenging his death. So we have songs telling also how Orestes, Pylades, Theseus, Peirithous, and many other illustrious demi-gods wrought glorious deeds of valour side by side, not because they shared a common bed but because of mutual admiration and respect.
— Xenophon, Symposium, 8.31

Achilles and Antilochus

>That Achilles loved Antilochus you must have discovered in Homer, seeing Antilochus to be the youngest man in the Greek host and considering he half-talent of gold that was given him after the contest. And it is he who brings word to Achilles that Patroclus has fallen, for Menelaus cleverly devised this as a consolation to accompany the announcement, since Achilles' eyes were thus diverted to his loved one; and Antilochus laments in grief for his friend and restrains his hands lest he take his own life, while Achilles no doubt rejoices at the touch of the youth's hand and at the tears he sheds.
— Philostratus, Imagines, 2.7

Agamemnon and Argynnus

Argynnus is said to have been the lover of Agamemnon, who died in the river Cephissus. Agamemnon subsequently establishes the worship of Aphrodite under the epithet "Argynnus":
>There is a Zeus Agamemnon honoured at Sparta, according to Staphylus; and Phanocles, in his book entitled Loves, or Fair Youths, says that Agamemnon the king of the Greeks set up a temple to Aphrodite Argynnus, in honour of Argynnus whom he loved.
— Clement, Protrepticus, Book II

>Argynnion [Ἀργύννιον]: ... Argynnos, son of Peisidike, the daughter of Leukon, son of Athamas, son of Sisyphus, son of Aeolus; the beloved of Agamemnon, a Boeotian, who died while going up to the Cephissus (river). Because of him, they honored Aphrodite Argynnida. It is also called Argounis. Aristophanes, however, wrote Argyneion with the diphthong. The resident is an Argynnios.
— Stephanus of Byzantium, Ethnica

>Whatever you build is the winds’: no keel ever grows old: the harbour itself belies your faith. Nature lying in wait has paved the watery paths of greed: it can scarcely happen you shall, even once, succeed. There are shores that witnessed Agamemnon’s pain, where Argynnus’ punishment makes Mimas’ waters famous: Atrides wouldn’t allow the fleet to sail, for loss of this boy, and Iphigenia was sacrificed through this delay. The cliffs of Caphareus shattered a triumphant fleet, when the Greeks were shipwrecked drawn down by the salt mass. Ulysses wept for his comrades sucked down one by one: his wiliness was worth nothing confronting the sea.
— Propertius, Elegies, Book III.7:1-72.

Probably a reference to Argynnion:
>No beauty saved Nireus, or courage Achilles, or wealth Croesus, produced from Pactolus’s streams. This was the sadness that unknowingly ravaged the Achaeans, when Agamemnon’s new passion cost them dearly.
— Propertius, Elegies, Book III.18:1-34.

>So slight and feeble is the regard we have for pleasure: our whole concern is with Nature. Whence it comes about that to this very day the desires of beasts have encompassed no homosexual mating. But you have a fair amount of such trafficking among your high and mighty nobility, to say nothing of the baser sort. Agamemnon69 came to Boeotia hunting for Argynnus, who tried to elude him, and slandering the sea and winds... then he gave his noble self a noble bath in Lake Copaïs to drown his passion there and get rid of his desire.
— Plutarch, Gryllus, Section 7

Agamemnon and Argynnus or Hymenaeus and Argynnus

>And it is said that Argynnus was a favourite of Agamemnon; and that they first became acquainted from Agamemnon seeing Argynnus bathing in the Cephisus. And afterwards, when he was drowned in this river, (for he was continually bathing in it,) Agamemnon buried him, and raised a temple on the spot to Venus Argynnis. But Licymnius of Chios, in his Dithyrambics, says that it was Hymenæus of whom Argynnus was a favourite.
— Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, 13.80

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Ameinias and Narcissus

The earliest versions of the myth explicitly mention his erastai. Narcissus is described by Ovid as fifteen, going on sixteen. In all versions of the myth, the beautiful youth disappears and all that is left is a narcissus flower.

A fragment discovered and published in 2005, believed to be from an earlier work by Parthenios of Nikaia conforms with Konon's version, with Narcissus committing suicide, suggesting that Ovid's inclusion of female admirers is a later interpolation:
>The twenty-fourth. In Thespeia in Boeotia (the town is not far from Mt. Helikon) a boy was born, Narkissos, extremely beautiful and disdainful of Eros and erastai. And the rest of his erastai swore off loving [him], but Ameinias was very persistent and importunate. When, however, [Narkissos] did not admit him but even sent him a sword, [Ameinias] killed himself before Narkissos’ doors after earnestly beseeching the god to avenge him. When Narkissos saw his own face and form at a fountain, reflected in the water, he became the first and only paradoxical lover of himself. Finally, at a loss and believing that he suffered justly in return for his contemptuous treatment of Ameinias’ passionate desires, he killed himself. And from that time the Thespians decided to revere and honor Eros more and to sacrifice to him privately in addition to the public sacrifices. The inhabitants believe that the narcissus flower first appeared from that spot of ground on which the blood of Narkissos was shed.
— Konon, Narratives, 24

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Ovid, Metamorphoses III (344-355):
>When her time came the beauteous nymph brought forth a child, whom a nymph might love even as a child, and named him Narcissus. When asked whether this child would live to reach well-ripened age, the seer replied: “If he ne’er know himself.” Long did the saying of the prophet seem but empty words. But what befell proved its truth—the event, the manner of his death, the strangeness of his infatuation. For Narcissus had reached his sixteenth year and might seem either boy or man. Many youths and many maidens sought his love; but in that slender form was pride so cold that no youth, no maiden touched his heart.

After Narcissus has spurned the nymph Echo, causing her to fade away (344-355):
>Thus had Narcissus mocked her, thus had he mocked other nymphs of the waves or mountains; thus had he mocked the companies of men. At last one of these scorned youth, lifting up his hands to heaven, prayed: “So may he himself love, and not gain the thing he loves!” The goddess, Nemesis, heard his righteous prayer.

Narcissus, resting from hunting, has lain down by a clear pool in the woods(415-25):
>While he seeks to slake his thirst another thirst springs up, and while he drinks he is smitten by the sight of the beautiful form he sees. He loves an unsubstantial hope and thinks that substance which is only shadow. He looks in speechless wonder at himself and hangs there motionless in the same expression, like a statue carved from Parian marble. Prone on the ground, he gazes at his eyes, twin stars, and his locks, worthy of Bacchus, worthy of Apollo; on his smooth cheeks, his ivory neck, the glorious beauty of his face, the blush mingled with snowy white: all things, in short, he admires for which he is himself admired. Unwittingly he desires himself;

>>18075671
Oddly enough. Everything you quoted, was some faggot trying to justify faggotry, by claiming snippets of historical documents point to faggotry out of context. Not sure if macro or micro but it’s defiantly mirrored projection.

Fags can’t reproduce. It must occupy the minds of cusping children. This is where I speculate your fixation stems from. Its inherent primal rebellious urge to paint history a different shade using retrospect.

Dude is grasping even in your quotes.

Apollo and Admetus

Apollo was sent to be the servant of the mortal king Admetus for a year by Zeus as punishment for killing Delphyne; several accounts report that Apollo fell in love with Admetus and served him willingly.

>We call him Phoebus and Nomios from that time
>When, on the river Amphryssus, he fed the yoke horses
>Of the youth Admetus, burned by love.
— Callimachus, Hymn to Apollo

>And therefore it is no mistake when the ancient poets tell their tales of the love Apollo bore Phorbas, Hyacinthus, and Admetus, as well as the Sicyonian Hippolytus also, of whom it is said, that, as often as he set out to sail from Sicyon to Cirrha, the Pythia, as though the god knew of his coming and rejoiced thereat, chanted this prophetic verse:
>"Lo, once more doth beloved Hippolytus hither make voyage."
— Plutarch, Numa, 4.5

>and upon his tomb it is that lovers plight their troths and make reciprocal vows of their affection. Moreover, Heracles, being skilled in physic, is said to have recovered Alcestis from death's door in kindness to Admetus, who, as he had a great love for his wife, so was greatly beloved by the hero. For it is said that even Apollo, doting upon Admetus, Became his slave for a long weary year.
— Plutarch, Of Love, Moralia, 761e

>"Rhianus, they say, states that Apollo willingly served him (Admetus) on account of love."
— Scholiast to Euripides’ Alcestis (ad v. 1 Schwartz)

Apollo and Adonis

>Phantasia, a woman of Memphis, daughter of Nicarchus, composed before Homer a tale of the Trojan War and of the adventures of Odysseus. The books were deposited, it is said, at Memphis; Homer went there and obtained copies from Phanites, the temple scribe, and he composed under their inspiration. Adonis, having become androgynous, behaved as a man for Aphrodite and as a woman for Apollo.
— Ptolemy, New History (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 190)

Apollo and Branchus

Branchus was a beautiful boy shepherd, who became a prophet after receiving magical items/powers from Apollo, who was smitten with him. According to myth, after disappearing suddenly, an altar was built at the place that Apollo kissed him:
>How Smikros married the daughter of a distinguished Milesian and she, when giving birth, saw an image of the sun coming in through her mouth, passing through her stomach, and emerging from her genitals. To the seers the vision was a fine one. She had a son, and called him Branchos because the sun had passed through her bronchia. And this boy was the handsomest of men*. Apollo found him working as a shepherd, fell in love, and kissed him, and an altar of Apollo of the Kiss was established there. And Branchos, having had the gift of prophecy breathed into him by Apollo, established himself in the hamlet of Didyma. And up to the present day the oracle of the Branchidai is recognized as the best, after Delphi, of all the Greek oracular sites we know.
— Conon, Narrations (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 186)

*the word used in the Greek is ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos), meaning "mankind" rather than "men"

>If I, a foreigner, love you, do not wonder ; eyes may not be convicted of being foreign, for beauty, just like fire, kindles them, Land it is inevitable that beauty should blaze and that eyes should immediately burn ; and neither in the case of eyes nor in the case of ears need any distinction be drawn between native and foreign—no, both to foreigners and to citizens they are the soul’s messengers. Surely Branchus did not flee from Apollo as from a foreigner, Lnor Hyllas from Heracles, nor Atymnius from Rhadamanthus nor Patroclus from Achilles, nor Chrysippus from Laius.
— Philostratus, Epistolae 8.57.4

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Dont make me fap to statues again...

According to Wikipedia:
>A different story is given by Callimachus. One day, Apollo left Delos on a dolphin and reached a place called hiera hyle (sacred woods). It was there that he saw Branchus tending to his flocks and felt attracted to him. Wanting to seduce the mortal, Apollo appeared to him disguised as a goatherd. He first offered assistance in milking the goats, but the distracted god ended up milking a billy goat.

According to Brill's Companion to Callimachus, this version of the myth is the origin of a Greek proverb:
>In fragment 229 Pf. (Iambus 17) we have the scene of Apollo attracted to the shepherd Branchus and trying to steal a kiss from him. Pretending that he is a goatherd, he ends up milking a billy goat, thus revealing his own inexperience and, at the same time, his divine nature (fr. 217 Pf.). This constitutes the origin of a proverb: “to milk a billy goat” (τράγον ἀμέλγειν), well noted in a series of adynata, proverbially useless actions (Diogenian. 7.95; Apost. 17.32a), which has found here, now ironically, its own later mythological exegesis.

Fragments from Callimachus (translated by AI):
>"A place of Miletus"
>"from the fact that Apollo fixed [stuck] there the horns of the male goat that was being milked by him,"
>"as Callimachus [says] in the Iambus... [in the work] Hōroi."
>"in the Iambus is omitted"
>"Hōroi is omitted"
— Callimachus, Iambus Fr. 217 Pf.

>both Phoebus (Apollo) and Zeus,
>ancestors/founders of Didyma,
>a cursed, ravenous plague come upon the four-footed [herds],
>[O beloved youth] O three times mine (referring to Branchus).
>[the cattle/herds] which graze on the green fodder.
>[if] it is also towards the heroes of the... (highly conjectural).

>>18075696
I was going to mention.

Is it actually possible to be gay. Without being a pedophile hebophile MAP or whatever other identifying justification?

>[... he wished] to accompany the one of Apollo [Branchus to accompany Apollo]:
>For let the [lineage] from your father's side, of those descended from Laius, be true,
>but as for the side of your mother [the Carian captive],
>[... I was aware of] your noble birth. Ouch! I said, and [at the sight] my heart leaped:
>And [I consecrated] a beautiful precinct in the grove, where you first appeared,
>near the twin springs [Didyma], after sticking a branch of laurel [in the ground].
>Hail, Delphinian, eternal, for I introduce this name to you,
>because the dolphin brought you here from Delos to be worshipped eternally by the Achaeans.

>...he honors, but then again [goes] to another
>[sacred] [place] of the Olympian, a fragrant temple
>[...of the lineage], the lover
>[...of other] lords/rulers, the sacred lineage
>[...it is fitting] to be most holy before the extremity [or: highest point]
— Callimachus, Iambus Fr. 229 Pf.

Apollo and Carnus

Some accounts describe Carnus as a lover of Apollo:
>The 26th tells how a spectral appearance [phasma, other writers say lover] of Apollo named Karnos was following the Dorians, and Hippotes one of the descendants of Herakles killed it when the Herakleidai were going down into the Peloponnese.
— Conon, Narrations (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 186)

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Apollo and Cyparissus

>Among the crowd came the cypress, formed like the cone-shaped meta, that marks the turning point in the race-course: once a boy, but now a tree: loved by the god who tunes the lyre, and strings the bow.

>There was a giant stag, sacred to the nymphs that haunt the Carthaean country, which cast deep shadows, around his head, from his wide-branching antlers. The antlers shone with gold, and the gems of a jewelled collar, around his polished neck, hung down onto his shoulders. A bulla, a silver charm, fastened with small strips of leather, quivered on his forehead, and on either side of his hollow temples matching pearls of bronze gleamed from both ears. Free from fear, and forgetting his natural shyness, he used to visit people’s houses, and offer his neck to be stroked by strangers’ hands. Yet, above all others, he was dear to you, Cyparissus, loveliest of the Cean boys. You led the stag to fresh pastures, and the waters of the clear spring. Now you would weave diverse flowers through his horns, and then, astride his back like a horseman, delight in tugging his soft mouth one way or the other by means of a purple muzzle.

>It was noon of a summer’s day, when the curving claws of shore-loving Cancer were burning in the hot sun. Tired, the stag had settled its body on the grassy turf and was enjoying the cool of the woodland shade. The boy, without intention, transfixed it with his sharp spear, and when he saw it dying from the cruel wound, he wished to die himself. What was there Phoebus did not say, in solace, advising a moderate grief matching the cause! He only sighed, and begged, as the last gift of the gods, that he might mourn forever.

>>18075702
Im still yet to see you present evidence of you position. Nothing you’ve copied and pasted.. from what is clearly a catalogued source list you’re searching selectively.. seems to show what you claim it shows..? Am I wrong?

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>Then, his blood discharged among endless tears, his limbs began to turn to a shade of green, and his hair that a moment ago hung over his pale forehead, became a bristling crown, and he stiffened to a graceful point gazing at the starry heavens. The god sighed for him, and said, sadly: ‘I will mourn for you: you will mourn for others, and enter into sorrows’.
— Ovid, Metamorphoses, X 106ff

Other accounts claim Cyparissus was loved by Silvanus or Zephyrus:
>Silvanus loved a boy (puer) named Cyparissus who had a tame deer. When Silvanus unintentionally killed her, the boy was consumed by sorrow. The lover-god turned him into the tree that has his name, which he is said to carry as a consolation.
— Servius, note to Georgics 1.20

>and Silvanus carrying a tender cypress by the roots
— Virgil, Georgics, 1.20

>"WITH BLACK CYPRESS" The myth about the cypress is as follows: When the boy Cyparissus had a stag as a pet and was himself loved by Apollo, he accidentally killed his stag with a javelin, and while he mourned for it, having ignored the consolation of Apollo, he was consumed by grief; in order that his memory might survive, he was changed into a mournful tree, that is, the cypress, which is used for the dead.
— Servius, note to Aeneid, 3.64

Whats up with the Aegan sea? The Greeks, the Romans, the Turks. There is some kind of evil lurking there that turns men into faggots.

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>Cyparissus, moreover, was the son of Telephus, and was loved by Apollo, or as others say, by Silvanus. Since he was tired by the heat and was taking sleep under a certain tree, he was suddenly awakened by a noise and, believing the stag which he had as a pet to be a wild animal, he killed it by mistake with a thrown spear, by weeping excessively he earned the pity of the gods, and so he was changed into the cypress tree, which is fitting and consecrated to tears and mourning.

>Therefore, cypresses are, as it were, connected with the underworld, either because when cut they do not grow again, or because among the Athenians, houses where there was a death are veiled with its foliage. Others relate that this Cyparissus was a most beautiful and chaste Cretan boy, whom some claim was loved by Apollo, and some by Zephyrus.

>Since he wished to keep his chastity undefiled, he is said to have left Crete and arrived at the Orontes river and Mount Casius, and there he was changed into the cypress tree, which is consecrated to the dead for this reason: because once cut, it knows not how to grow again.
— Servius, note to Georgics 3.680

Apollo and Helenus

Claimed to be a lover of Apollo in one source:
>Achilles, killed by Penthesileus, was resuscitated at the request of his mother Thetis to return to Hades once he had killed Penthesileus. In the Alexandra which Lycophron wrote: "What sterile nightingale killer of centaurs...", these are the sirens who he called killers of centaurs. Helenus, son of Priam, was beloved of Apollo and received from him the silver bow with which he wounded Achilles in the hand.
— Ptolemy, New History (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 190)

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Apollo and Hyacinth

>Hermes: Apollo
>Her: Why so sad, Apollo?
>Ap: Alas, Hermes,— my love!
>Her: Oh; that’s bad. What, are you still brooding over that affair of Daphne?
>Ap: No. I grieve for my beloved; the Laconian, the son of Oebalus.
>Her: Hyacinth? he is not dead?
>Ap: Dead.
>Her: Who killed him? Who could have the heart? That lovely boy!
>Ap: It was the work of my own hand.
>Her: You must have been mad!
>Ap: Not mad; it was an accident.
>Her: Oh? and how did it happen?
>Ap: He was learning to throw the quoit, and I was throwing with him. I had just sent my quoit up into the air as usual, when jealous Zephyr (damned be he above all winds! he had long been in love with Hyacinth, though Hyacinth would have nothing to say to him)— Zephyr came blustering down from Taygetus, and dashed the quoit upon the child’s head; blood flowed from the wound in streams, and in one moment all was over. My first thought was of revenge; I lodged an arrow in Zephyr, and pursued his flight to the mountain. As for the child, I buried him at Amyclae, on the fatal spot; and from his blood I have caused a flower to spring up, sweetest, fairest of flowers, inscribed with letters of woe.— Is my grief unreasonable?
>Her: It is, Apollo. You knew that you had set your heart upon a mortal: grieve not then for his mortality.
— Lucian, Dialogues of the Gods, Hermes and Apollo I

>And therefore it is no mistake when the ancient poets tell their tales of the love Apollo bore Phorbas, Hyacinthus, and Admetus, as well as the Sicyonian Hippolytus also, of whom it is said, that, as often as he set out to sail from Sicyon to Cirrha, the Pythia, as though the god knew of his coming and rejoiced thereat, chanted this prophetic verse:
>"Lo, once more doth beloved Hippolytus hither make voyage."
— Plutarch, Numa, 4.5

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>Clio fell in love with Pierus, son of Magnes, in consequence of the wrath of Aphrodite, whom she had twitted with her love of Adonis; and having met him she bore him a son Hyacinth, for whom Thamyris, the son of Philammon and a nymph Argiope, conceived a passion, he being the first to become enamored of males. But afterwards Apollo loved Hyacinth and killed him involuntarily by the cast of a quoit.
— Apollodorus, Library, 1.3.3

>They say that this Hyacinth was beloved of Apollo and killed by him involuntarily with the cast of a quoit.
— Apollodorus, Library, 3.10.3

>Amyclas, too, son of Lacedaemon, wished to leave some memorial behind him, and built a town in Laconia. Hyacinthus, the youngest and most beautiful of his sons, died before his father, and his tomb is in Amyclae below the image of Apollo.
— Pausanias, Descriptions of Greece, 3.1.3

Nonnus, Dionysiaca:
19.102
>When Bacchos lifted his thyrsus against a maddened bear, or cast his stout fennel javelin-like at a lioness, he looked aside watchfully toward the west; for fear the deathbringing breath of Zephyros might blow again, as it did once before when the bitter blast killed a young man while it turned the hurtling quoit against Hyacinthos. He feared Cronides might suddenly appear over Tmolos as a love-bird on amorous wing unapproachable, carrying off the boy with harmless talons into the air, as once he did the Trojan boy to serve his cups. He feared also the lovestricken ruler of the sea, that as once he took up Tantalides in his golden car, so now he might drive a winged wagon coursing through the air and ravish Ampelos – the Earthshaker mad with love!

11.325
>"Alas, that my father begat me not a mortal, that I might be playfellow with my boy even in Hades, that I might not leave Ampelos my darling to fall in Lethe alone! Apollo is more blest in the youth he loved that he bears the boy's beloved name; O that also I might be Ampeloian, as Apollo is Hyacinthian!

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11.351
>For new love is ever the physic for older love, since old time knows not how to destroy love even if he has learnt to hide all things. If you need a painhealing medicine for your trouble, court a better boy: fancy can wither fancy. A young Laconian shook Zephyros; but he died, and the amorous Wind found young Cyparissos a consolation for Amyclaian Hyacinthos.

19.102
>Such was the lay of the harper poet, and all were alike enchanted with the music; they and the god with the thyrsus admired the Attic song with the lovely tones of the fit setting. Second, my lord Oiagros wove a winding lay, as the father of Orpheus who has the Muse his boon companion. Only a couple of verses he sang, a ditty of Phoibos, clearspoken in few words after some Amyclaian style: Apollo brought to life again his longhaired Hyacinthos: Staphylos will be made to live for aye by Dionysos.

29.79
>As Apollo bemoaned Hyacinthos, struck by the quoit which brought him quick death, and reproached the blast of the West Wind's jealous gale, so Dionysos often tore his hair and lamented for Hymenaios with those unweeping eyes.

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>Clio fell in love with Pierus, son of Magnes, in consequence of the wrath of Aphrodite, whom she had twitted with her love of Adonis; and having met him she bore him a son Hyacinth, for whom Thamyris, the son of Philammon and a nymph Argiope, conceived a passion, he being the first to become enamored of males. But afterwards Apollo loved Hyacinth and killed him involuntarily by the cast of a quoit. And Thamyris, who excelled in beauty and in minstrelsy, engaged in a musical contest with the Muses, the agreement being that, if he won, he should enjoy them all, but that if he should be vanquished he should be bereft of what they would. So the Muses got the better of him and bereft him both of his eyes and of his minstrelsy.
— Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, 1. 3.3.

>Let us ask the youth, my boy, who he is and what is the reason for Apollo’s presence with him, for he will not be afraid to have us, at least, look at him. Well, he says that he is Hyacinthus, the son of Oebalus; and now that we have learned this we must also know the reason for the god’s presence. The son of Leto for love of the youth promises to give him all he possesses for permission to associate with him; for he will teach him the use of the bow, and music, and understanding of the art of prophecy, and not to be unskillful with the lyre, and to preside over the contest of the palaestra, and he will grant to him that, riding on a chariot drawn by swans, he should visit all the lands dear to Apollo. Here is the god, painted as usual with unshorn locks; he lifts a radiant forehead above eyes that shine like rays of light, and with a sweet smile he encourages Hyacinthus, extending his right hand with the same purpose. The youth keeps his eyes steadfastly on the ground, and they are thoughtful, for he rejoices at what he hears and tempers with modesty the confidence that is yet to come.

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>He stands there, covering with a purple mantle the left side of his body, which is also drawn back, and he supports his right hand on a spear, the hip being thrown forward and the right side exposed to view, and this bare arm permits us to describe what is visible.44 He has a slender ankle below the straight lower leg, and above the latter this supple knee-joint; then some thighs not unduly developed and hip-joints which support the rest of the body; his side rounds out a full-lunged chest, his arm swells in a delicate curve,46 his neck is moderately erect, while the hair is not unkempt nor stiff from grime, but falls over his forehead and blends with the first down of his beard. The discus at his feet... about himself, and Eros, who is both radiant and at the same time downcast, and Zephyrus,47 who just shows his savage eye from his place of look-out – by all this the painter suggests the death of the youth, and as Apollo makes his cast, Zephyrus, by breathing athwart its course, will cause the discus to strike Hyacinthus.
— Philostratus, Imagines, 14

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>>18075715
>Since he wished to keep his chastity undefiled, he is said to have left Crete

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>>18075671
The Gods are queer just look at Dionysus, Apollo ect
The Gods made queer and intersex people just look at Hermaphroditus or the fact that Dionysus got Hermes and Prometheus shitfaced and they scrambled bodies and minds (LGBTQ)

The idea that people are only men and women and women are the lesser is a bullshit Abrahamic concept that doesnt hold up under any level of science or just visual inspection

Apollo and Hymenaios

Most commonly described as the son of Apollo, one account, citing the Megalai Ehoiai (composed 8th or 7th century BC) popularly attributed to Hesiod in antiquity describes him as the lover of Apollo:
>BATTUS: Nicander tells this tale in the first book of his Metamorphoses, as does Hesiod in his Great Eoeae, Didymarchus in the third book of his Metamorphoses, Antigonus in his Changes, Apollonius Rhodius in his Epigrams, as does Pamphilus in his first book. Argos, son of Phrixus, and Perimele, daughter of Admetus, had a son, Magnes. He lived near Thessaly and people named this land Magnesia after him. He had a son, Hymenaeus, admired by all around for his appearance. Apollo saw the lad and fell in love with him and would not leave the house of Magnes. Because of this Hermes plotted to get the herd of cattle belonging to Apollo that pastured with those of Admetus.
— Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 23 [= Hesiod, Megalai Ehoiai fr. 16].

The Athenaeus excerpt already posted, referencing Likymnios of Chios says that Hymenaeus was the erastes of Argynnus.

Apollo and Iapyx

>And now Iapyx drew near, Iasus’ son, dearest beyond others to Phoebus, to whom once Apollo himself, smitten with love’s sting, gladly offered his own arts, his own powers—his augury, his lyre, and his swift arrows. He, to defer the fate of a father sick unto death, chose rather to know the virtues of herbs and the practice of healing, and to ply, inglorious, the silent arts.
— Virgil, Aeneid, 12.391

Apollo and Cinyras

>The voices of the men of Cyprus often shout the name of Cinyras, whom golden-haired Apollo gladly loved, Cinyras, the obedient priest of Aphrodite.
— Pindar, Pythian Ode 2 lines 15-17

Asclepius and Hippolytus and others

>"'And not to spend the time in an endless exposition, you will find numerous unions with Jupiter of all the gods. But senseless men call these doings of the gods adulteries; even of those gods who did not refrain from the abuse of males as disgraceful, but who practised even this as seemly. For instance, Jupiter himself was in love with Ganymede: Poseidon with Pelops; Apollo with Cinyras, Zacyinthus, Hyacinthus, Phorbas, Hylas, Admetus, Cyparissus, Amyclas, Troilus, Branchus the Tymnæan, Parus the Potnian, Orpheus; Dionysus with Laonis, Ampelus, Hymenæus, Hermaphrodites, Achilles; Asclepius with Hippolytus, and Hephæstus with Peleus; Pan with Daphnis; Hermes with Perseus, Chrysas, Theseus, Odrysus; Hercules with Abderus, Dryops, Jocastus, Philoctetes, Hylas, Polyphemus, Hæmon, Chonus, Eurystheus."
— Clement of Alexandria, Clementina Homilia, V, 15

Athis and Lycabas

>At the feast was one from India's distant shores, whose name was Athis. It was said that Limnate, the daughter of the River Ganges, him in vitreous caverns bright had brought to birth; and now at sixteen summers in his prime, the handsome youth was clad in costly robes. A purple mantle with a golden fringe covered his shoulders, and a necklace, carved of gold, enhanced the beauty of his throat. His hair encompassed with a coronal, delighted with sweet myrrh. Well taught was he to hurl the javelin at a distant mark, and none with better skill could stretch the bow. No sooner had he bent the pliant horns than Perseus, with a smoking billet, seized from the mid-altar, struck him on the face, and smashed his features in his broken skull.

>And when Assyrian Lycabas had seen his dear companion, whom he truly loved, beating his handsome countenance in blood. And when he had bewailed his lost life, that ebbed away from that unpiteous wound, he snatched the bow that Athis used, and said; “Let us in single combat seek revenge; not long will you rejoice the stripling's fate; a deed most worthy shame.” So speaking, forth the piercing arrow bounded from the cord, which, though avoided, struck the hero's cloak and fastened in its folds.—Then Perseus turned upon him, with the trusted curving sword, cause of Medusa's death, and drove the blade deep in his breast. The dying victim's eyes, now swimming in a shadowous night, looked 'round for Athis, whom, beholding, he reclined upon, and ushered to the other world,—sad consolation of united death.
— Ovid, Metamorphoses, Book 5

Cephalus and Pterelas

>It contains the sanctuary of Apollo Leucatas, and also the "Leap," which was believed to put an end to the longings of love."Where Sappho is said to have been the first, as Menander says, "when through frantic longing she was chasing the haughty Phaon, to fling herself with a leap from the far-seen rock, calling upon thee in prayer, O lord and master. Now although Menander says that Sappho was the first to take the leap, yet those who are better versed than he in antiquities say that it was Cephalus, who was in love with Pterelas the son of Deioneus.
— Strabo, Geography, 10.2.9

Chiron and Dionysus

>Dionysius was loved by Chiron, from whom he learned chants and dances, the bacchic rites and initiations.
— Ptolemy, New History (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 190)

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>>18075752
>For instance, Jupiter himself was in love with Ganymede
>Poseidon with Pelops;
>Apollo with Cinyras,
>Zacyinthus,
>Hyacinthus,
>Phorbas,
>Hylas,
>Admetus,
>Cyparissus,
>Amyclas,
>Troilus,
>Branchus the Tymnæan,
>Parus the Potnian,
>Prpheus
The charges, YHWH?

Cleostratus and Menestratus

> In Thespiae is a bronze image of Zeus Saviour. They say about it that when a dragon once was devastating their city, the god commanded that every year one of their youths, upon whom the lot fell, should be offered to the monster. Now the names of those who perished they say that they do not remember. But when the lot fell on Cleostratus, his lover Menestratus, they say, devised a trick.
— Pausanias, Description of Greece, 9.26.7

Cycnus (son of Sthenelus) and Phaethon

After Zeus strikes and kills Phaethon with a lightning bolt, Cycnus turns into a swan (a bird known to mourn the death of their mates):
>For they say that Cycnus wept for his beloved Phaethon,
>singing amongst the poplar leaves, those shades of Phaethon's
>sisters, consoling his sorrowful passion with the Muse,
>and drew white age over himself, in soft plumage,
>relinquishing earth, and seeking the stars with song.
— Virgil, Aeneid, 10.189

>Cycnus, son of Sthenelus, by his maternal house akin to Phaethon, and thrice by love allied, beheld this wonderful event.—he left his kingdom of Liguria, and all its peopled cities, to lament where the sad sisters had increased the woods, beside the green banks of Eridanus. There, as he made complaint, his manly voice began to pipe a treble, shrill; and long gray plumes concealed his hair. A slender neck extended from his breast, and reddening toes were joined together by a membrane. Wings grew from his sides, and from his mouth was made a blunted beak. Now Cycnus is a swan, and yet he fears to trust the skies and Jove, for he remembers fires, unjustly sent, and therefore shuns the heat that he abhors, and haunts the spacious lakes and pools and streams that quench the fires.
— Ovid, Metamorphoses, 2, 367 sqq.

>For they say that Cycnus, out of grief for his beloved Phaethon... [...]
>[...] There was also a certain Ligurian man, named Cycnus, who was gifted by Apollo with the sweetness of song, and was a lover of Phaethon. When he wept for Phaethon's death, he was changed by his long grief into a bird of his own name (a swan). He was afterwards placed among the stars by Apollo.
>The poet now says that Cycnus's son, Cupavus, wears the feathers of a swan on his helmet to display the emblem of his father's form.
>Regarding the phrase "your love is a charge" (crimen amor vestrum) concerning Phaethon, who was loved by Cycnus, we must interpret it as referring to either a devoted or a shameful love.
>If shameful, the meaning is this: "It is a charge against you, O Cycnus and Phaethon, that you loved in this way; this alone can be held against you." Others take "your" (vestrum) instead of the singular "your" (tuum), and refer it only to Cycnus, just as in the line, "I pray to you, O Calliope."
>If he loved devotedly, then according to Asper, "charge" (crimen) will mean "cause," as elsewhere: "and from one fault learn all the rest," so that the meaning is: "O sisters of Phaethon and O Cycnus, the cause of your fate, that is, of your transformation, is love, because you loved Phaethon so much that you perished."
— Maurus Servius Honoratus. On Aeneid. 10.189

Some doubt that this tale actually happened:
>Not far from the Academy is the monument of Plato, to whom heaven foretold that he would be the prince of philosophers. The manner of the foretelling was this. On the night before Plato was to become his pupil Socrates in a dream saw a swan fly into his bosom. Now the swan is a bird with a reputation for music, because, they say, a musician of the name of Swan became king of the Ligyes on the other side of the Eridanus beyond the Celtic territory, and after his death by the will of Apollo he was changed into the bird. I am ready to believe that a musician became king of the Ligyes, but I cannot believe that a bird grew out of a man.
— Pausanias, Description of Greece, 1.30.3

Cycnus (son of Apollo) and Phylius

A sad tale of unrequited love:
>CYCNUS or SWAN: Nicander tells this tale in the third book of his Metamorphoses, as also Areus the Laconian in his Ode to Cycnus. Apollo and Thyrie, daughter of Amphinomus, had a son called Cycnus. He was of fine appearance, but graceless and boorish in character. He was extraordinarily devoted to hunting. He lived in the country between Pleuron and Calydon. There were many who became his lovers because of his beauty. Because of his disdainfulness Cycnus attained understanding with no one. Very soon he came to be thoroughly disliked by his admirers and abandoned by them. Phylius alone stood by him. But Cycnus treated him with immoderate arrogance. At that time there appeared among the Aitolians a great monster of a lion that savaged the inhabitants and their flocks. Cycnus ordered Phylius to kill the lion without using a weapon. He promised to do so and made away with the animal by the following trick. Knowing at what hour the lion was going to go prowling, he filled his stomach with a great deal of food and wine.

>>18075761
S-Stayvun?

>>18075689
Then why do people born in Christian doomsday cults still end up gay or trans causing them to leave the cult. Mind you their families hide any information about homosexuality and being trans.

>When the beast came up, Phylius sicked up the food. The lion, hungry, availed himself of this food and was spiked down by the wine. Phylius, throwing his arm round the lion, blocked his maw with the clothing he wore. Having killed the beast, he put it on his shoulders and carried it to Cycnus. He gained wide renown for this achievement. Cycnus then demanded an even stranger feat. There had appeared in this land some vultures, monstrous and enormous. They killed many people. Cycnus ordered him to catch them alive and to bring them to him, by whatever method. Phylius was wondering how he was to achieve this task when, by divine intervention, an eagle that had snatched up a hare let it fall half-dead before it could take it to its eyrie. Phylius tore open the hare, besmeared himself with the blood and lay on the ground. The birds swooped on him as a cadaver. Phylius caught hold of two birds by their legs and, getting a good hold, carried them off to Cycnus. Cycnus then imposed on him an even more difficult feat. He ordered him to carry a bull away from its herd, using only his hands, and to haul it off all the way to the altar of Zeus. Phylius, not knowing how he was to accomplish the task, prayed to Heracles to assist him in this. In answer to this prayer there came into view two bulls, both in rut for a cow; they butted with their horns hurling each other to the ground. When he saw the bulls sprawling helplessly, Phylius caught one by the leg and dragged it off to the altar. Heracles desired him to pay no more attention to the orders of that youth.

>>18075770
Reminder that transgenderism isn't real and you're just a gay taking female pregnancy hormones

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>Cycnus felt fearsomely and unexpectedly disgraced. In his depression he flung himself into the lake called Conope and was seen no more. After his death, his mother, Thyrie, threw herself into the same lake. By the will of Apollo they both became lake birds. After their disappearance, the lake's name was changed and became the Swan Lake. Many swans appear there at ploughing time. The tomb of Phylius stands nearby.
— Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses, 12

Cydon and Clytius

>You too, hapless Cydon, while you follow your new delight, Clytius, whose cheeks are golden with early down—you would have fallen under the Dardan hand and lain, a piteous sight, forgetful of all your youthful loves, had not the serried band of your brothers met the foe—children of Phorcus, seven in number, and seven the darts they throw.
— Virgil, Aeneid, 10.325

Dionysus and Ampelos

Ampelos was a was a satyr lover of Dionysus that either turned into a constellation or the grape vine:
>Then came a great portent to doting Dionysos, showing that Ampelos had not logn to live: for a horned dragon covered with scales rose from the rocks, carrying across his back a tender young fawn; he crept over the steps, and threw it upon the altar tumbling and rolling helpless and gored with his horrible horn. The hillranging fawn screamed a shrill note as its wandering spirit flew away. A stream of blood reddened the stone altar with bloody dew like so much trickling wine, harbinger of the libation that should follow. When Euois saw the crawling horned robber with the fawn, he knew that a horned creature would destroy the thoughtless youth. He mingled a laugh with his mourning; his thought was uncertain and divided in two, his heart cleft in halves, as he groaned for the youth so near to death, and laughed for the delectable wine.

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>None the less he went with the lovely boy to the mountains, to the flats, to the course of their familiar hunting. Bacchos still delighted to look at him; for loving eyes are never sated with looking. Often as Bromios sat with him at table, the youth would pipe a new strange music, and confused all the notes of his reeds. Even if he broke the tune of his melody, Bacchos made as if the boy were playing well, and sprang from the ground with airy leaps, clapped and clattered with hands together, as the boy yet sang pressed his own lips to his mouth, embraced him lovingly for his beautiful song, as he said, and swore by Zeus that melodious Pan had never sung such another tune nor the clear voice of Apollo.
— Nonnus, Dionysiaca (full text too long to quote, just read it here: https://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca11.html)

>The origin of that constellation also can be briefly told. ‘Tis said that the unshorn Ampelus,39 son of a nymph and a satyr, was loved by Bacchus on the Ismarian hills. Upon him the god bestowed a vine that trailed from an elm’s leafy boughs, and still the vine takes from the boy its name. While he rashly culled the gaudy grapes upon a branch, he tumbled down; Liber bore the lost youth to the stars.
— Ovid, Fasti 3.407 ff

Dionysus and Prosymnus

>But those contests and phalloi consecrated to Dionysus were a world's shame, pervading life with their deadly influence. For Dionysus, eagerly desiring to descend to Hades, did not know the way; a man, by name Prosymnus, offers to tell him, not without reward. The reward was a disgraceful one, though not so in the opinion of Dionysus: it was an Aphrodisian favour that was asked of Dionysus as a reward. The god was not reluctant to grant the request made to him, and promises to fulfil it should he return, and confirms his promise with an oath.

>Having learned the way, he departed and again returned: he did not find Prosymnus, for he had died. In order to acquit himself of his promise to his lover, he rushes to his tomb, and burns with unnatural lust. Cutting a fig-branch that came to his hand, he shaped the phallus, and so performed his promise to the dead man. As a mystic memorial of this incident, phalloi are raised aloft in honour of Dionysus through the various cities. "For did they not make a procession in honour of Dionysus, and sing most shameless songs in honour of the pudenda, all would go wrong," says Heraclitus. This is that Pluto and Dionysus in whose honour they give themselves up to frenzy, and play the bacchanal — not so much, in my opinion, for the sake of intoxication, as for the sake of the shameless ceremonial practiced. With reason, therefore, such as have become slaves of their passions are your gods!
— Clement of Alexandria, Protreptikos, 2.34.2-5

Dionysus and Staphylus

>[Meaning] you were mixing. Aristophanes [writes]: "certainly, by Zeus, if you were pouring in Thasian". On the basis of Thasian wine being sweet-smelling. For Staphylos, the beloved of Dionysos, lived on Thasos; and because of this Thasian wine is distinctive.
— Suda, epsilon, 1276

>Also [sc. attested is] a proverb: "if you were pouring in Thasian." [It arose] because Staphylos, the beloved of Dionysos, lived in Thasos. Thasian wine is exceptional. "You were pouring in" means you were mixing.
— Suda, theta, 59

Eurybarus and Alcyoneus

>LAMIA or SYBARIS Boeus tells this tale in the fourth book of his Origins of Birds. By the foothills of Parnassus, towards the south, there is a mountain called Cirphis, lying near Crisa. Inside it there is to this day a huge cave in which lived a great and prodigious beast. Some called it Lamia, though others called it Sybaris. Every day this monster would issue forth, snatching flocks in the fields, as well as people.

>The inhabitants of Delphi had for some time been considering emigration and they asked the oracle to what land they should emigrate. The god told them that they would be delivered from this menace if they remained and were willing to abandon by the cave a youth chosen from the citizens. They did as the god told them. By lot Alcyoneus, son of Diomus and Meganira, was chosen. Only son of his father, he possessed beauty in both appearance and the nature of his character. The priests crowned Alcyoneus and led him towards the cave of Sybaris. By divine inspiration, Eurybarus son of Euphemus, a descendant of the River Axius, a young man but brave, happened to be coming from Curetis and encountered the youth as he was being led forward. Stricken by love for him, and asking why they were so proceeding, he thought it dreadful not to defend him to the utmost and just allow the youth to perish wretchedly. Tearing off the chaplets from Alcyoneus, he placed them on his own head and gave orders that he himself should be led forward instead of the youth. As soon as the priests had led him up to the cavern, he ran in and hauled out Sybaris from her lair, carrying her into the open and hurling her from the crags. Tumbling down, she struck her head against the footings of Crisa. Because of this wound she faded from sight. From that rock sprang a fountain and the locals call it Sybaris. And the Locrians founded a city in Italy, called Sybaris after her.
— Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses, 8

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Helios/Poseidon and Nerites

In this acccount, Anteros is born from the love between Posidon and the beautiful boy Nerites:
>But the other account proclaims that Poseidon was the lover of Nerites, and that Nerites returned his love, and that this was the origin of the celebrated Anteros (mutual love). And so, as I am told, for the rest the favourite spent his time with his lover, and moreover when Poseidon drove his chariot over the waves, all other great fishes as well as dolphins and tritons too, sprang up from their deep haunts and gambolled and danced around the chariot, only to be left utterly and far behind by the speed of his horses; only the boy favourite was his escort close at hand, and before them the waves sank to rest and the sea parted out of reverence to Poseidon, for the god willed that his beautiful favourite should not only be highly esteemed for other reasons but should also be pre-eminent at swimming.

>But the story relates that the Sun resented the boy's power of speed and transformed his body into the spiral shell as it now is: the cause of his anger I cannot tell, neither does the fable mention it. But if one may guess where there is nothing to go by, Poseidon and the Sun might be said to be rivals. And it may be that the Sun was vexed at the boy travelling about in the sea and wished that he should travel among the constellations instead of being counted among sea-monsters. Thus far the two fables; but may the gods be good to me, and for my part let me observe a religious silence regarding them. But if my fables have said anything overbold, the fault must be laid to their charge.
— Aelian, On Animals, 14. 28

Hey OP can you use your autism powers to find all the gay footfag quotes from antiquity. I already know of those in Philostratus and Horace and Sappho

Heracles

>And therefore we find that the most warlike of nations are most addicted to love, as the Boeotians, Lacedemonians, and Cretans. And among the most ancient heroes none were more amorous than Meleager, Achilles, Aristomenes, Cimon, and Epaminondas; the latter of which had for his male concubines Asopichus and Caphisodorus, who was slain with him at the battle of Mantinea and lies buried very near him. And when... had rendered himself most terrible to the enemy and most resolute, Eucnamus the Amphissean, that first made head against him and slew him, had heroic honors paid him by the Phocians. It would be a task too great to enumerate the amours of Heracles; but among the rest, Iolaus is honored and adored to this day by many, because he is thought to have been the darling of that hero; and upon his tomb it is that lovers plight their troths and make reciprocal vows of their affection. Moreover, Heracles, being skilled in physic, is said to have recovered Alcestis from death's door in kindness to Admetus, who, as he had a great love for his wife, so was greatly beloved by the hero.
— Plutarch, Of Love, Moralia, 761d

Heracles and Abderus

>THE BURIAL OF ABDERUS: Let us not consider the mares of Diomedes to have been a task for Heracles, my boy, since he has already overcome them and crushed them with his club — one of them lies on the ground, another is gasping for breath, a third, you will say, is leaping up, another is falling down; their manes are unkempt, they are shaggy down to their hoofs, and in every way they resemble wild beasts; their stalls are tainted with flesh and bones of the men whom Diomedes used as food for his horses, and the breeder of the mares himself is even more savage of aspect than the mares near whom he has fallen — but you must regard this present labour as the more difficult, since Eros enjoins it upon Heracles in addition to many others, and since the hardship laid upon him was no slight matter.

>For Heracles is bearing the half-eaten body of Abderus, which he has snatched from the mares; and they devoured him while yet a tender youth and younger than Iphitus, to judge from the portions that are left; for, still beautiful, they are lying on the lion's skin. The tears he shed over them, the embraces he may have given them, the laments he uttered, the burden of grief on his countenance — let such marks of sorrow be assigned to another lover; for another likewise let the monument placed upon the fair beloved's tomb carry the same tribute of honour; but, not content with the honours paid by most lovers, Heracles erects for Abderus a city, which we call by his name, and games also will be instituted for him, and in his honour contests will be celebrated, boxing and the pancratium and wrestling and all the other contests except horse-racing.
— Philostratus, Imagines, 2.25.1

Heracles and Eurystheus

While discussing the love of boys:
>But Ibycus states that Talus was a great favourite of Rhadamanthus the Just. And Diotimus, in his Heraclea, says that Eurystheus was a great favourite of Hercules, on which account he willingly endured all his labours for his sake.
— Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, 13.80

Heracles and Hylas

Claimed by Clement to be a lover of Heracles, also:
>From what god soever sprung, Nicias, Love was not, as we seem to think, born for us alone; nor first unto us of mortal flesh that cannot see the morrow, look things of beauty beautiful. For Amphitryon’s brazen-heart son that braved the roaring lion, he too once loved a lad, to wit the beauteous Hylas of the curly locks, and even as father his son, had taught him all the lore that made himself a good man and brought him fame; and would never leave him, neither if Day had risen to the noon, nor when Dawn’s white steeds first galloped up in to the home of Zeus, nor yet when the twittering chickens went scurrying at the flapping of their mother’s wings to their bed upon the smoky hen-roost. This did he that he might have the lad fashioned to his mind, and that pulling a straight furrow from the outset the same might come to be a true man.
— Theocritus, Idylls, 13

Hermes and Amphion

> "My own opinion is that Hermes gave Amphion these gifts, both the [magical] lyre and the headband, because he was overcome by love for him."
— Philostratus the Elder, Imagines 1. 10

Hermes and Crocus

In one version of his myth, Crocus is the lover of Hermes and is accidentally killed by him throwing a discus, turning into a flower afterwards, like Apollo with Hyacinthus:
>Now, the first two lines (of the recipe/description) indicate the crocus, which is yellow in color and hair-like in its fineness. He says that the blood (lythron) of the crocus shines (or gleams) in the Hermaiai, that is, among the herbs of Hermes.
>This is because a youth named Crocus, while throwing the discus with Hermes, stood carelessly, and a discus struck him on the head. It happened that he immediately died, and when his blood was spilt onto the earth, the crocus plant grew from it.
>He said that the blood (lythron) shone/gleamed, that is, the blood from the one who was slain."
— Servius on Virgil's Georgics, 4.182

Hermes and Pollux
>Hermes, beloved of Pollux, one of the Dioscurides, made him a gift of Dotor, the Thessalian horse.
— Ptolemy, New History (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 190)

Hesperus and Hymenaeus

>Oeta is a mountain in Thessaly, on which Hercules willingly burned himself after he was unable to strip off the tunic stained with the blood of the centaur Nessus, and afterward, he was received into heaven. It is from this mountain that stars are seen to set, just as they are seen to rise from Ida, as in [the line] 'and now Lucifer was rising on the ridges of high Ida'. And this [the phrase tibi deserit h. oetam] means: 'for you,' that is, on account of you, the night arrives.
>On the same mountain, Hesperus is said to be worshipped, who is said to have loved Hymenæus, a beautiful boy. This Hymenæus is said to have lost his voice while singing at the wedding of Ariadne and Father Liber (Dionysus), and from his name, wedding ceremonies are named."
— Maurus Servius Honoratus, Commentary on the Eclogues of Vergil, 8.30

Hypnos and Endymion

>"[Endymion was a handsome youth loved by the moon-goddess Selene. He was granted immortality in a state of eternal slumber :] Likymnios of Khios (Licymnius of Chios) says the Hypnos (Sleep) loves Endymion and does not close they eyes of his beloved boy even while he is asleep, but lulls him to rest with eyes wide open so that he may without interruption enjoy the pleasure of gazing at them. His words are ‘And Hypnos (Sleep), rejoicing in the rays of his eyes, would lull the boy to rest with eyes wide open.’"
— Licymnius, Fragment 771 (from Athenaeus, Scholars at Dinner) (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric V) (Greek lyric C4th B.C.)

Kalamos and Karpos

>[369] “Listen while I tell you a story of the men of old. There was a dainty boy, superior to all his yearsmates, who lived beside the stream of Maiandros, that manybranching river. Tall and delicate he was, swift of foot, with long straight hair, no down on his chin; on both cheeks was a natural grace playing over his face with its modest eyes; a farshooting radiance ever flowed from his eyelids and his arrows of beauty. He had skin all like milk, but over the white the rose showed upon the surface, two glowing colours together. His own father called him Calamos: his father Maiandros, lurking in the secret places with his water in the lap of earth – who rolls deep through the earth and drags his crooked stream toward the light, crawling unseen and travelling slantwise underground, until he leaps up quickly and lifts his neck above the ground.
>[384] “Such was lovely Calamos, the quick one. The rosy-armed youth was fond of a charming playfellow Carpos, who had such beauty for his lot as mortal man never had. For if this youth had lived in the older generations, he would have been bridegroom of Eos Fairtress; since he shone lovelier than Cephalos, was handsomer of face than Orion, he alone outdid them with his rosy skin. Deo would not have embraced Iasion as bridegroom with her fruitful arm, nor Selene Endymion. No – this youth with his nobler beauty would soon have espoused both goddesses, one husband for two: he would have taken on the couch of Goldilocks Deo rich in harvests, he would have had beside him also the jealous Mene. Such was the charming friend of Calamos, the flower of love, a real beauty: both comrades of one age were playfellows on the bank of that river of many windings hard by.

>[400] “They had a double racecourse, winding out and back, and there they held races. Calamos ran like the wind. He set an elm for starting-point and an olive-tree for turning-point, and ran from point to point on the edges of the river – but nimbleknee Calamos fell on purpose, and left the victory to charming Carpos of his own will. When the boy bathed, the lad bathed and played with him. Again they had another race in the water like the first; Calamos swam slowly in the current and let Carpos go ahead, that he might cut the flood paddling behind and come in second beside the ankles of swimming Carpos, while he watched the free shoulders of the lad in front. The race began from its watery starting-point; the match was, which could beat which to swim there and back while their hands paddled them, passing round at the turning-points on each bank, first one, then crossing to the other side. The flowing water was their way; Calamos kept close beside his brined as they swam, watching his rosy fingers and sparing the vigour of his own moving hand. Calamos again in the lead checked his speed and gave way to his young friend; the boy handpaddled storming along, and lifting his neck above the water. And now Carpos would have got out of the waves, and safe on the shore would have won the river-race as he won the land-race, but a wind beat full in his face and drove a great wave into his open mouth, and drowned the dear boy without pity.
>[427] “Calamos avoided the blasts of the jealous wind, and made the nearest shore without his friend. He could neither see him nor get any answer to his cries, so full of love he called out in a lamentable voice: `Speak, Naiads! What Wind has caught up Carpos? Yes, I pray, grant me this last grace – go to another fountain, leave my father’s fatal water, drink not of the stream which murdered Carpos! My father never killed the boy!

>That wind had a grudge against Calamos after Phoibos, and he killed Carpos; no doubt he desired him and struck him with a jealous gale – first the quoit, then for this youth the counterblast! My star sank in the stream and has not yet risen, my Phosphoros has not yet shone again! Carpos is drowned in the river, and what care I to see the light any longer?
>[442] “`Speak, Naiads! Who has quenched the light of love? How long you are, my boy! Why do you like the water so much? Can you have found a better friend in the water, have you thrown to the winds the love of poor Calamos that you may stay with him? If one nymph of the Naiads enamoured has carried you off, tell me, and I will make war on them all! If wedded love is your pleasure, and you want my sister for a wife, do but say so and I will build you a bridechamber in the stream. Have you passed me, Carpos, forgetting the familiar shore? I have shouted till I am tired, and you do not hear my call. If Notos blew on you, if bold Euros, let him go off wandering without dances by himself, the barbarous enemy of love! If Boreas overwhelmed you, I will go to Oreithyia. If the wave covered you and had no pity for your beauty, if my father carried you off in the mericiless rush of his wave, let him receive his son also in those manslaying waters, let him hide Calamos near to dead Carpos. Where Carpos wandered and died, I will fall headlong, I will quench my burning love with a draught of water from Acheron.’
>[463] “So he spoke, with streams bubbling from his eyes. To honour the dead he cut with sorrowful steel a dark lock of his hair, long cherished and kept, and holding out this mourning tress to Maiandros his father, he said these last words: `Accept this hair, and then my body; for I cannot see the light for one later dawn without Carpos.

>in some accounts
>it is said of
>as told
>who is said to have

Love. Lover.

Not a single thing about erections and oral sex or anal sex. Or even kissing. Or holding hands. Just affection. Or references to references.

It’s fanfiction on fanfiction on fanfiction.
The thread.

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>Carpos and Calamos had one life, and both one watery death for both together in the same stream. Build on the river bank, ye Naiads, one empty barrow for both, and on the tombstone let this verse be engraved in letters of mourning: “I am the grave of Carpos and Calamos, a pair of lovers, whom the pitiless water slew in days of yore.” Cut off just one small tress of your hair for Calamos too, your own dying brother so unhappy in love, and for Carpos cut all the hair of your heads.’
>[478] “With these words, he threw himself into the river and sank, as he swallowed the sonslaying water of an unwilling father. Then Calamos gave his form to the reeds which took his name and like substance; and Carpos grew up as the fruit of the earth.”
— Nonnus, Dionysiaca, 11.385-481

Laius and Chrysippus

Chrysippus is abducted by Lauis; scholars universally agree that Laius rapes Chrysippus in this story after abducting him, on the basis of the language used/the context of the story, after which Lauis is cursed. The earliest known account of this myth was a play about the myth by the tragedian Euripides (5th century BC).

>And having succeeded to the sovereignty they fortified the city, the stones following Amphion's lyre; and they expelled Laius. He resided in Peloponnese, being hospitably received by Pelops; and while he taught Chrysippus, the son of Pelops, to drive a chariot, he conceived a passion for the lad and carried him off.
— Apollodorus, Library, 3.5.5

>CHRYSIPPUS: Laius, son of Labdacus, carried of Chrysippus, illegitimate son of Pelops, at the Nemean games because of his exceeding beauty. Pelops made war and recovered him. At the instigation of their mother Hippodamia, Atreus and Thyestes killed him. When Pelops blamed Hippodamia, she killed herself.
— Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae, 85

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>YOUTHS WHO WERE MOST HANDSOME: Adonis, son of Cinyras and Smyrna, whom Venus loved. Endymion, son of Aetolus, whom Luna loved. Ganymede, son of Erichthonius, whom Jove loved. Hyacinthus, son of Oibalus, whom Apollo loved. Narcissus, son of the river Cephisus, who loved himself. Atlantius, son of Mercury and Venus, who is called Hermaphroditus. Hylas, son of Theodamas, whom Hercules loved. Chrysippus, son of Pelops, whom Theseus stole from the games.
— Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae, 271

>"Pelops, the son of Tantalos (Tantalus) and Euryanassa, married Hippodameia and begat Atreus and Thyestes; but by the nymphe Danaïs he had Khrysippos (Chrysippus), whom he loved more than his legitimate sons. But Laïos (Laius) the Theban conceived a desire for him and carried him off; and, although he was arrested by Thyestes and Atreus, he obtained mercy from Pelops because of his love. But Hippodameia tried to persuade Atreus and Thyestes to do away with Khrysippos, since she knew that he would be a contestant for the kingship; but when they refused, she stained her hands with the pollution. For at dead of night, when Laïos was asleep, she drew his sword, wounded Khrysippos, and fixed the sword in his body. Laïos was suspected because of the sword, but was saved by Khrysippos, who, though half-dead, acknowledged the truth. Pelops buried Khrysippos and banished Hippodameia. So Dositheüs in his Descendants of Pelops."
— Pseudo-Plutarch, Greek and Roman Parallel Stories, 33

> "They say Laios (Laius) was the first lover of a noble boy; he made off with Khrysippos (Chrysippus), son of Pelops. As a result the Thebans thought it a good thing to love the handsome."
— Aelian, Historical Miscellany, 13. 5

> "They say that the poet Euripides was also in love with this same Agathon [the poet]. He is said to have composed the play Khrysippos in his honour. I am not able to state this as a fact, but I can say that it is very frequently asserted."
— Aelian, Historical Miscellany 2. 21

>And you take the greatest pleasure in all such poems as turn on boys and favourite; of that kind; while the fashion of making favourites of boys was first introduced among the Grecians from Crete, as Timæus informs us. But others say that Laius was the originator of this custom, when he was received in hospitality by Pelops; and that he took a great fancy to his son, Chrysipps, whom he put into his chariot and carried off, and fled with to Thebes. But Praxilla the Sicyonian says that Chrysippus was carried off by Jupiter. And the Celtæ, too, although they have the most beautiful women of all the barbarians, still make great favourites of boys... And the Persians, according to the statement of Herodotus, learnt from the Greeks to adopt this fashion.
— Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists, 13.79

>Peisander relates that the Sphinx was sent to the Thebans out of the farthest regions of Ethiopia on account of the wrath of Hera, because they did not punish Laius, who had committed a sacrilege with respect to the unlawful love of Chrysippus, whom he abducted from Pisa.

>The Sphinx, as it is written, had the tail of a serpent (or dragon). Seizing both small and great, she devoured them, including Haemon, the son of Creon, and Hippios, the son of Eurynomos, who had fought with the Centaurs. Eurynomos and Ioneus were sons of Magnes, the son of Aeolus, and Philodice.

>Hippios, although he was a stranger, was destroyed by the Sphinx. Ioneus, however, was destroyed by Oenomaus, in the same way as the other suitors.

>Laius was the first to introduce the unlawful love (or passion, ε~ρωτα, erōta).
— Scholia ad Euripides, The Phoenician Women, line 1748 (Tragoedia Phoenissae)

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>>18075822
cope

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Marsyas and Olympus

>Having thus discoursed of the several nomes appropriated to the stringed as well as to the wind instruments, we will now speak something in particular concerning those peculiar to the wind instruments. First they say, that Olympus, a Phrygian player upon the flute, invented a certain nome in honor of Apollo, which he called Polycephalus, or of many heads. This Olympus, they say, was descended from the first Olympus, the scholar of Marsyas, who invented several forms of composition in honor of the Gods; and he, being a boy beloved of Marsyas, and by him taught to play upon the flute, first brought into Greece the laws of harmony.
— Pseudo-Plutarch, On Music, 7

>Now since I have set before my readers certain memorable sayings of the other sophists, I must make Alexander also known to them by quoting several sayings of his. For among the Greeks he has never yet attained to the full measure of the renown that is his due. The following quotations from his discourses show how sublime and at the same time how delightful was his style of eloquence. "Marsyas was in love with Olympus, and Olympus with fluteplaying."
— Philostratus, Lives of the Sophists, 2.5.5.

Minos and Atymnius/Miletus

>Now Asterius, prince of the Cretans, married Europa and brought up her children. But when they were grown up, they quarrelled with each other; for they loved a boy called Miletus, son of Apollo by Aria, daughter of Cleochus. As the boy was more friendly to Sarpedon, Minos went to war and had the better of it, and the others fled. Miletus landed in Caria and there founded a city which he called Miletus after himself; and Sarpedon allied himself with Cilix, who was at war with the Lycians, and having stipulated for a share of the country, he became king of Lycia. And Zeus granted him to live for three generations. But some say that they loved Atymnius, the son of Zeus and Cassiepea, and that it was about him that they quarrelled. Rhadamanthys legislated for the islanders but afterwards he fled to Boeotia and married Alcmena; and since his departure from the world he acts as judge in Hades along with Minos.

>BYBLIS: In Crete Apollo and Acacallis, daughter of Minos, had a child called Miletus. Fearing Minos, Acacallis exposed him in a wood. By the will of Apollo wolves would turn up to guard him and to give milk in turn. Then herdsmen came across him and gathered him up and brought him up in their huts. As the lad grew, becoming handsome and active, Minos felt the urge to take him by force. So, on the advice of Sarpedon, Miletus boarded a boat one night and escaped to Caria. There he built the city of Miletus and married Eidothee, daughter of Eurytus king of Caria.
— Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses, 30

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Minos and Ganymede

>And many men used to be as fond of having boys for their favourites as women for their mistresses. And this was a frequent fashion in many very well regulated cities of Greece. Accordingly, the Cretans, as I have said before, and the Chalcidians in Eubœa, were very much addicted to the custom of having boy-favourites. Therefore Echemens, in his History of Crete, says that it was not Jupiter who carried off Ganymede, but Minos.
— Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, 13.77

Nisus and Euryalus

>This contest sped, loyal Aeneas moves to a grassy plain, girt all about with winding hills, well-wooded, where, at the heart of the valley, ran the circuit of a theatre. To this spot, with many thousands, the hero betook himself into the midst of the company and sat down on a raised seat. Here, for any who might perhaps wish to vie in speed of foot, he lures valour with hope of rewards and sets up prizes. From all sides flock Trojans and Sicilians among them, Nisus and Euryalus foremost... Euryalus famed for beauty and flower of youth, Nisus for tender love for the boy.
— Virgil, Aeneid, Book 5, Line 286

>Here, even in the joy of triumph, the youth could not hold his stumbling steps on the ground he trod, but fell prone, right in the filthy slime and blood of sacrifice. Yet not of Euryalus, not of his love was he forgetful; for as he rose amid the sodden ground he threw himself in the way of Salius, who, rolling over, fell prostrate on the clotted sand. Euryalus darts by and, winning by grace of his friend, takes first place, and flies on amid favouring applause and cheers.
— Virgil, Aeneid, Book 5, Line 294

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>Nisus was guardian of the gate, most valiant of warriors, son of Hyrtacus, whom Ida the huntress had sent in Aeneas’ train with fleet javelin and light arrows. At his side was Euryalus—none fairer among the Aeneadae, or of all who donned the Trojan arms—a boy who showed on his unshaven cheek the first bloom of youth. A common love was theirs; side by side they would charge in the fray; now too they together were mounting sentry at the gate.
— Virgil, Aeneid, Book 5, Line 182

Orpheus and the Thracian boys

Orpheus is recounted as the first Thracian to love boys:
>Orpheus wished and prayed, in vain, to cross the Styx again, but the ferryman fended him off. Still, for seven days, he sat there by the shore, neglecting himself and not taking nourishment. Sorrow, troubled thought, and tears were his food. He took himself to lofty Mount Rhodope, and Haemus, swept by the winds, complaining that the gods of Erebus were cruel.

>Three times the sun had ended the year, in watery Pisces, and Orpheus had abstained from the love of women, either because things ended badly for him, or because he had sworn to do so. Yet, many felt a desire to be joined with the poet, and many grieved at rejection. Indeed, he was the first of the Thracian people to transfer his love to young boys, and enjoy their brief springtime, and early flowering, this side of manhood.
— Ovid's Metamorphoses, 10.83-85

He is then killed in Ovid's Metamorphoses for rejecting the love of women:
>While with his songs, Orpheus, the bard of Thrace, allured the trees, the savage animals, and even the insensate rocks, to follow him; Ciconian matrons, with their raving breasts concealed in skins of forest animals, from the summit of a hill observed him there, attuning love songs to a sounding harp. One of those women, as her tangled hair was tossed upon the light breeze shouted, “See! Here is the poet who has scorned our love!”
— Ovid's Metamorphoses, 11

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>>18075776
>>18075776
Well given that trans people existed before Jesus walked the earth and have continued to exist afterwards says that you are plugging your ears and refuse to learn.

Honestly saying trans people dont exist is like saying the sun doesnt exist, you simply are ignoring your eyes and other senses because you are either ignorant or someone has pulled the wool over your eyes.

>female pregnancy hormones
Yeah no kidding anon we all know that trans people have been doing that since before Herodotus or ancient historians walked the earth.
Its not our fault you picked the least interesting and most obnoxious mystery cult to believe in but hey I prefer Dionysus to Jesus, why go for the diet version when I can get the whole thing.

Also Mathew 19:12 Jesus doesnt give a fuck about "genital mutilation" as you Christians call it. Just another example of you not even following your own "messiah's" actual words

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Orpheus and Kalais

>Or how Thracian Orpheus, the son of Oeagrus, loved Calaïs, the son of Boreas, with all his heart and often he would sit in the shady groves singing his heart’s desire; nor was his spirit at peace, but always his soul was consumed with sleepless cares as he gazed on fresh Calaïs. But the Bistonian women of evil devices killed Orpheus, having poured about him, their keen-edged swords sharpened, because he was the first to reveal male loves among the Thracians and did not recommend love of women. The women cut off his head with their bronze and straightaway they threw it in the sea with his Thracian lyre of tortoiseshell, fastening them together with a nail, so that both would be borne on the sea, drenched by the grey waves.
— Phanocles, fragment 1 Powell = Stobaeus, Eclogae 20.2.47, IV 461-2 Hense

Pan and Daphnis

Clement already commented on a homosexual relation between the two; Daphnis is frequently depicted in art being seduced by Pan.

>[Inscription for a picture :] You sleep there upon the leaf-strown earth, good Daphnis, and rest your weary frame, while your netting-stakes are left planted on the hillside. But Pan is after you, and Priapos also, with the yellow ivy about his jolly head; they are going side by side into your cave. Quick then, put off the lethargy that is shed of sleep, and up with you and away.
— Theocritus, Inscriptions 3

>Pan is the Speaker Nereids, Nymphs of the shore, you saw Daphnis yesterday, when he washed off the dust that lay like down on his skin; when, burnt by the dog star, he rushed into your waters, the apples of his cheeks faintly reddened. Tell me, was he beautiful? Or am I a goat, not only lame in my legs but in my heart too?
— Zonas of Sardes, Anth. Pal. 9, 566

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Poseidon and Pelops

>[35] It is seemly for a man to speak well of the gods; for the blame is less that way. Son of Tantalus, I will speak of you, contrary to earlier stories. When your father invited the gods to a very well-ordered banquet at his own dear Sipylus, in return for the meals he had enjoyed, [40] then it was that the god of the splendid trident seized you, his mind overcome with desire, and carried you away on his team of golden horses to the highest home of widely-honored Zeus, to which at a later time Ganymede came also, [45] to perform the same service for Zeus.
— Pindar. Olympian 1. lines 39–52.

Rhadamanthus and Talos

>But Ibycus states that Talus was a great favourite of Rhadamanthus the Just.
— Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, 13.80

>A Thracian, from Edones, the city in Brinkoi; son of Philammon and Arsinoe, eighth epic poet before Homer; but according to others fifth; and some [say he came] from Odryse. This Thamyris was blinded because he insulted the Muses. A Theology in three thousand verses is attributed to him.
>And he was the first to be passionate about a boy, called Hymenaios, the son of Kalliope and Magnes. But the Cretans say that a certain Talon was passionate about Rhadamanthys [sc. and was the first to be so]. Others [claim] Laios was passionate about Chrysippos, the son of Pelops, as the first [sc. object of such passion]. Others [assert] that it was the Italiotes, under campaigning duress, who invented this. But the truth is that it was Zeus himself who was first passionate about Ganymede.
— Suda, theta, 41

Zeus and Aëtos

>Certainly, there is also another myth about the eagle. It is read among the Greeks that a certain boy, born of the earth, was exceedingly beautiful in all his limbs, and he was called Aëtos (Ἀετὸς). While Jupiter was being nourished in the Idaean cave on the island of Crete, on account of his father Saturn who devoured his own sons, this boy was the first to offer his obedience to Jupiter. Later, when Jupiter had grown up and had driven his father from the kingdom, Juno (Hera), provoked by the boy’s beauty as if by a rival's painful presence, turned him into a bird, which is called Aëtos in Greek after himself, and Aquila by us because of its aquilus (dark) color, which is black. Jupiter always commanded this bird to remain attached to him and to carry his thunderbolts. Through this bird, too, Ganymede is said to have been seized when he was loved by Jupiter, and Jupiter placed them (the eagle and Ganymede) among the stars.
— Servius, Commentary on Virgil's Aeneid 1.394

>>18075845
fuck off dumb tranny

A lot of these just repeat/recycle the same story.

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Zeus and Ganymede

>For they are of that stock wherefrom Zeus, whose voice is borne afar, gave to Tros recompense for his son Ganymedes, for that they were the best of all horses that are beneath the dawn and the sun.
— Homer, Iliad 5.265

>Ganymede who was comeliest of mortal men; wherefore the gods carried him off to be Zeus' cupbearer, for his beauty's sake, that he might dwell among the immortals.
— Homer, Iliad 20:233-35

> `...the vine which the son of Cronos gave him as a recompense for his son. It bloomed richly with soft leaves of gold and grape clusters; Hephaestus wrought it and gave it to his father Zeus: and he bestowed it on Laomedon as a price for Ganymedes.'
— Homerica, The Little Iliad, Frag 7

>"Verily wise Zeus carried off golden-haired Ganymedes because of his beauty, to be amongst the Deathless Ones and pour drink for the gods in the house of Zeus -- a wonder to see -- honoured by all the immortals as he draws the red nectar from the golden bowl. But grief that could not be soothed filled the heart of Tros; for he knew not whither the heaven-sent whirlwind had caught up his dear son, so that he mourned him always, unceasingly, until Zeus pitied him and gave him high-stepping horses such as carry the immortals as recompense for his son. These he gave him as a gift. And at the command of Zeus, the Guide, the slayer of Argus, told him all, and how his son would be deathless and unageing, even as the gods. So when Trosheard these tidings from Zeus, he no longer kept mourning but rejoiced in his heart and rode joyfully with his storm-footed horses.
— Homeric Hymns, Hymn V, To Aphrodite, 203–217;

>There is some pleasure in loving a youth, since once in fact even Zeus, the son of Cronos, king of the immortals, fell in love with Ganymede, seized him, carried him off to Olympus, and made him divine, keeping the lovely bloom of boyhood.
— Theognis, Fragments, 1.1345

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>And I praised the lovely son of Archestratus, whom I saw at that time beside the Olympic altar, winning victory with the valor of his hands-beautiful in form, and blended with that youthful bloom which once kept Ganymede from shameless death, with the help of Cyprian Aphrodite.
— Pindar, Olympian Odes, 11

>There was the Dardanian boy, Phrygian Ganymede, whom Zeus delights to honour, drawing off the wine he mixed in the depths of golden bowls; while, along the gleaming sand, the fifty daughters of Nereus graced the marriage with their dancing, circling in a mazy ring.
— Euripides, Iphigenia at Aulis, 1051

> And as this intimacy continues and the lover comes near and touches the beloved in the gymnasia and in their general intercourse, then the fountain of that stream which Zeus, when he was in love with Ganymede, called “desire” flows copiously upon the lover; and some of it flows into him, and some, when he is filled, overflows outside; and just as the wind or an echo rebounds from smooth, hard surfaces and returns whence it came, so the stream of beauty passes back into the beautiful one through the eyes, the natural inlet to the soul, where it reanimates the passages of the feathers, waters them and makes the feathers begin to grow, filling the soul of the loved one with love.
— Plato, Phaedrus, 255

>And whether one makes the observation in earnest or in jest, one certainly should not fail to observe that when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure. And we all accuse the Cretans of concocting the story about Ganymede.
— Plato, Laws 636c

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>And Cypris went on her way through the glens of Olympus to find her boy. And she found him apart, in the blooming orchard of Zeus, not alone, but with him Ganymedes, whom once Zeus had set to dwell among the immortal gods, being enamoured of his beauty.
— Apollonios Rhodios, Argonautica, 3.112f

>Seeing her exposed, Hercules promised to save her on condition of receiving from Laomedon the mares which Zeus had given in compensation for the rape of Ganymede
— ps-Apollodorus, Bibliotheke, 2.104

>On succeeding to the kingdom, Tros called the country Troy after himself, and marrying Callirrhoe, daughter of Scamander, he begat a daughter Cleopatra, and sons, Ilus, Assaracus, and Ganymede.211 This Ganymede, for the sake of his beauty, Zeus caught up on an eagle and appointed him cupbearer of the gods in heaven
— ps-Apollodorus, Bibliotheke, 3.141

>On the boundary between the territory of Cyzicus and that of Priapus is a place called Harpagia, from which, according to some writers of myths, Ganymede was snatched, though others say that he was snatched in the neighbourhood of the Dardanian Promontory, near Dardanus.
— Strabo, Geography, 13.1.11

>Opposite this are other offerings in a row, and likewise images of Zeus and Ganymedes. Homer's poem tells how Ganymedes was carried off by the gods to be wine-bearer to Zeus, and how horses were given to Tros in exchange for him.
— Pausanias, Guide to Greece, V.24.5

>The king of all the Gods once burned with love for Ganymede of Phrygia. He found a shape more pleasing even than his own. Jove would not take the form of any bird, except the eagle's, able to sustain the weight of his own thunderbolts. Without delay, Jove on fictitious eagle wings, stole and flew off with that loved Trojan boy: who even to this day, against the will of Juno, mingles nectar in the cups of his protector, mighty Jupiter.
— Ovid, Metamorphoses, 10.152

According to you jew tards the Greeks were black Africans so that must mean blacks are fags.

>>18075671
>I've heard a few people claim (bizarrely) that there is no evidence for homosexuality in Greco-Roman mythology
Correct

>>18075671
>>18075983
>>18075852
Gotta love the amazing intellect of christians
>>18075671
Thanks for the fun thread OP, nice change of pace from reich wingers posting race science, conspiracy theories and christian navel gazing
are you excited to celebrate Sol Invictus and the Solstice this year?

>>18075822
Caesar became a god. Caesar bottomed for Nicomedes and topped men.

>>18075845
Yes, mental illness has always existed, just like diabetes. They're both terminal sicknesses.

>>18077014
Caesar got BTFO and LOST, just like Jesus ;)

>>18075671
All this proves is just how hideously ugly and unattractive MED-MENA """women""" really are. If it isn't a mustache, it's a unibrow. If it isn't a unibrow, it's a kinky fro, etc....etc.....

That being said, it did give them any right to be a bunch of sick, Pedo fags.

Probably why their entire """culture""" was obliterated by men that absolutely did not "tolerate" or "include" any of these "customs" in their culture. On the contrary, they were punished very, very severely.

If you were a "Youth" in antiquity, where would you want to live in Greece, with the "elites", or in Germany with the "barbarians". Exactly ;)

I win.

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>>18075983
Might as well try and claim that the Parthenon isn't in Athens.

>>18075770
Kids naturally rebel against weak parents, this happens to leftist parents far more often but few lefties like to talk about their Nazi sons and you will never reproduce, so you'll never understand.

Don't bother giving this anon attention.

>in all fields

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>>18077601
Keep crying for me.

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>>18077615
Why are sculptors so boypilled?

>>18077288

Homosexuality has existed in all human societies, Celtic "barbarians" were notorious for it. All we have about Germania is Tacitus and he is notoriously unreliable since he was not an eye-witness, nor did he live among them.

>>18075822

The ancient Greeks and Romans also wrote very explicit texts about both boy love and homosexual acts between adult men. Love (Eros) in both cases was considered superior and not unclean , compared to the act of buggery for sole pleasure, or with a prostitute.

And he was a good friend.

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>>18077627
They have superior aesthetic sensibilities.

>>18075822
I just bought the tagline about gay shit in Greece until pederastyanon started spam posting about this shit. In near every excerpt posted about these guys you see an overwhelming amount of homoerotic gay shit implied but then another passage is posted where the Greeks are shitting on gay dudes or straight up criminalizing making a passive partner out of a free born man. Why then, is it so obvious that they were doing heinously gay shit and that it was totally normal? It's weird to me, because as dishonest as I know pederastyanon is, is the rest of academia really just prepared to ignore passages where a dude is stripped of his civic rights for doing something that was "pervasive and accepted"? Are we reading into implications of a text that we couldn't possibly know and using a modern lens to then projecting our own delusions onto the people that wrote them?

I'm not sure if I fully believe that, but it wasn't until this shit started getting spammed on here that I realized how truly fragile the academic narrative on this shit really is.

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>>18077638
There seem to be more boy sculptures than boy paintings me noticed

Do you may perhaps have any quotes to anal sex?

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>>18077645
>straight up criminalizing making a passive partner out of a free born man
>where a dude is stripped of his civic rights for doing something that was "pervasive and accepted"?
Timarchus was stripped of his civic rights because he prostituted himself, not because he engaged in homosexual relations. This is very obvious to anyone who has read the text. Aeschines' speech is considered one of the greatest single pieces of evidence by historians that pederasty was pervasive, legal, and accepted in Athens. You are acting as though the notion that pederasty existed in ancient Greece is one invented by modern academics, when it has just been a widely known and accepted fact for the last two thousand years.

>>18077646
Most sculptures of boys are higher quality and just better than paintings.

>>18077631
>Romans are reliable
>Romans are unreliable
>Pancreatic Cancer has "existed in all societies". Therefore, it's good.

Your gay brain is leaking, like your sphincter(s).

>>18077674
I don't think it was obvious that homosexual relationships were not part of his rap sheet and something under which he was apparently condemned. That specific case is also not the only time Greeks/Romans either rip on fags or prosecute them, it's weird because you see almost zero mention of those cases but every time some idiot writes a poem it's complete and irrefutable proof that has been accepted for several thousand years. I don't really have a bone to pick with you, you have already made your position indefensible and talking to you is a waste of time, but I am surprised by the seeming intentional ignorance of academia towards any all cases which might refute your extreme views.

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>>18077674
Yeah, they put a lot of effort into them.

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>>18077687
>I don't think it was obvious that homosexual relationships were not part of his rap sheet and something under which he was apparently condemned
No, it is obvious, which is why Aeschines in anticipation of Demosthenes' defence distinguishes between acceptable homosexual relationships and prostitution, specifically so that he doesn't offend the audience that he was addressing by being accused of being against pederasty. Aeschines also openly states that he is a pederast who has written love poetry about boys.

>That specific case is also not the only time Greeks/Romans either rip on fags
Certain people making jokes at the expense of (mostly) passive homosexuals does not in any way imply that homosexuality wasn't accepted, legal, or common. People joke about women being whores all the time, people make jokes/insults about men being philanderers, and modern homosexuals refer to themselves in derogatory terms and make fun of bottoms, etc. The fact that people made these types of jokes actually makes it more apparent how widespread it was; you hardly find these types of jokes in medieval sources, for example.

>and talking to you is a waste of time
Okay, then stop doing it. Oh wait, you won't do that because you're my little leashed puppy dog who barks incessantly for me.

>but I am surprised by the seeming intentional ignorance of academia towards any all cases which might refute your extreme views
Turns out people that study ancient Greece as a profession, whose knowledge on the matter comes from diligent research and not just watching a Leather Apron Club video and perhaps reading an infograph, come to the same conclusion that the Romans did two-thousand years ago: the Greeks were massive, unashamed, homosexual boy-lovers.

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>>18077691
It's so that we can appreciate every detail of their art.

>>18077708
and he throws a temper tantrum, as per usual

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>>18077712
Its difficult to stop staring sometimes

>>18077708
The Demosthenes passage save you tried throwing last thread was circular logic and based off your own assumptions at that, but either way I mean it isn't the only example where a gay guy is faced with direct, even legal, scrutiny for doing gay shit. You almost always ignore these but dodging it every time it comes up doesn't make your position any stronger, it makes it weaker. That's why your position is untenable, because if the act was accepted in Ancient Greece or Rome they wouldn't have all these statutes against and insults for people doing it, even if they were rarely enforced. Sporadic enforcement, moreover, would indicate that the crimes were treated much more harshly when they were prosecuted and ignored when they were not, kinda like what we saw in the Timarchus case. It paints a picture of a culture that was not at all uniform in its beliefs or enforcement of said beliefs temporally or spatially and you can make as many appeals to authority as you want but that is the image that the literature paints.

>>18077729
>The Demosthenes passage save you tried throwing last thread was circular logic and based off your own assumptions at that
Explain how it is circular logic?

>but either way I mean it isn't the only example where a gay guy is faced with direct, even legal, scrutiny for doing gay shit
This is a dishonest statement, he was prosecuted for prostituting himself.

>You almost always ignore these
Example? Post them.

>they wouldn't have all these statutes against and insults for people doing it
You haven't posted a single law against homosexuality, and the fact that there were insults directed towards homosexuals doesn't imply that it wasn't legal, common, or accepted. It actually provides further evidence that it was common.

I thought talking to me was a waste of time btw, why do you continue barking for me?

>y-you're not worth talking to
>w-which is why I'm going to continue replying to you, seethingly
Utterly buckbroken. Mindraped. Obsessed.

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>dont wear shoes he said
>its more healthy he said

>>18077729
>Explain how it is circular logic?

It would be strange to prosecute a man for prostitution with a statute that includes a law specifically against outraging free-born children. Wouldn't the existence of that law also imply that outraging a free-born child was not acceptable? If every answer comes back to Demosthenes defense or Aeschines' apparent proclivities every time the above questions are asked it becomes circular.

>Example? Post them.

You'll categorically reject them but the Lex Scantinia, the thousands of lines of anti-homosexual rhetoric in both Greek and Roman philosophy, especially stoicism. If you ignore these every time they are mentioned it doesn't really serve your argument. It's not like anyone is ignoring the writing of your polemics.

>I thought talking to me was a waste of time btw, why do you continue barking for me?

It's fascinating because you seem to do your level best to intentionally misunderstand or misinterpret anyone who even remotely challenges your world view, even if they are being charitable. There is such a personal edge in your anger, you take it deathly seriously regardless of how much you try to fit the role of a bait poster. This is an issue which you require your absolute correctness on and will only give ground in a circuitous fashion throwing as many insults as you can along the way. You say that other people bark for you but your anguish on this particular point is what motivates you to continue to making these threads and it seems to be obvious to everyone but you.

this post >>18077774 was meant to respond to>>18077738

>>18077774
>It would be strange to prosecute a man for prostitution with a statute that includes a law specifically against outraging free-born children
Outrage (hubris) does not mean "sexual contact". As a legal concept, it means using violence to shame another person. Aeschines specifies that hubris against a slave is not legal. Aeschines argues that soliciting a citizen should be viewed as a form of hubris as part of his rhetorical attack on Timarchus. Nowhere does Aeschines argue that sex with a freeborn boy should be viewed as a type of hubris. Nowhere is it implied that a sexual relation would constitute a form of hubris, or is a law cited which criminalized sexual relations with freeborn boys.

>You'll categorically reject them but the Lex Scantinia
No I don't. It just isn't a Greek law, and isn't relevant to a discussion on Greek homosexuality. These laws also doesn't outlaw homosexuality per se, it most likely outlawed sexual relations with a freeborn boy. Oddly enough, academics almost universally agree that pederasty was not as common or accepted in Rome, and that it mostly happened between a man and a boy of a lower status (i.e. slaves), despite your insinuation that there is a two-thousand year long conspiracy theory by LGBT academics to present homosexuality as perfectly accepted, universally, during antiquity.

>thousands of lines of anti-homosexual rhetoric in both Greek and Roman philosophy, especially stoicism
The opinions of philosophers aren't representative of widely held views. Most philosophers hold views which are highly opposed to the views of the average person. You also aren't providing any references to these philosophers' statements which supposedly prove that pederasty wasn't accepted in Greece.

>next paragraph of seethe
Second reply since posting "I don't really have a bone to pick with you, you have already made your position indefensible and talking to you is a waste of time", by the way. Completely and utterly obsessed.

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>>18077770
Men have been boypilled on boyfeet for thousands of years.

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>>18077814
They are very cute and kissable

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>>18077879
Henri Allouard must have known what he was doing when he sculpted this...

>>18077810
In typical fashion you try and obfuscate your way out of a statute that very obviously condemns the behavior you claim was widespread and accepted. It is strange you continue to do that when no one ever denied that outrage still happened despite the statutes. The arguments against you have never been categorical denial unless it was someone fairly effectively trolling you, almost always it has been that the behavior was unclear in both the ethical and legal context of classical Greece and Rome. The words and writings of philosophers, of a school of which I mentioned directly, show that even internal to the upper echelons of Greek society it was a point of debate. We have no idea what the lower classes thought of this behavior, mind you, and generally they seem to have hated the practice as they were the prime victims of it.

It is just strange you need this ancient practice to line up exactly with your modern perversions? Why? You are separated by many degrees and traits from all these men you say practiced it. Is it maybe because you are insecure about its expression in your own psyche and so need a historical template with which to liken yourself to? Is it a way for you to shield yourself from criticisms you otherwise might not have an answer for?

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>>18077948
Maybe he liked doing it a little too much...

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>>18077988
>you try and obfuscate your way out of a statute that very obviously condemns the behavior you claim was widespread and accepted
No it doesn't, retard.

>The words and writings of philosophers, of a school of which I mentioned directly
Post these writings that supposedly prove that pederasty wasn't common or accepted or legal in ancient Greece.

>We have no idea what the lower classes thought of this behavior
Yes we do. Despite the fact that the lower classes did not leave much of a written record, we can infer that they accepted (and engaged in) pederasty for various reasons, such as:

1: The practice was widespread in general
2: Items depicting pederastic scenes were commonly owned by the lower/middle classes
3: They told stories about how their gods loved boys
4: They worshiped gods that loved boys
5: Various writers often mention how the practice was common throughout society (Plato lamented the fact that it would be impossible to outlaw because of how common it was)
6: They enjoyed plays which featured pederastic themes, or plays entirely centered around the theme of pederasty
7: They voted for and celebrated politicians who were pederasts and/or did not legally disapprove of pederasty (i.e. Solon)
8: There is no indication from any of the sources that the lower/middle classes were opposed to the practice
9: Elite opinion doesn't always diverge much from the lower classes; e.g. the upper classes in our society harshly disapprove of pedophilia, and this is representative of lower/middle class opinion as well

So really, you're just coping and trying to fit ancient Greek pederasty into your paranoid poltroon narrative of elites all being pedoz or something.

Also, this is the THIRD reply since posting "I don't really have a bone to pick with you, you have already made your position indefensible and talking to you is a waste of time". And you are now writing more speculative fanfiction about me. Keep barking for me like a deranged, obsessed, dog.

>>18078102
They have to have signs everywhere reminding you that you're not supposed to touch these statues... but even then, I don't think I'd be able to resist touching a statue like this...

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>>18078107
alas, its just cold, hard stone, molded to please they eyes in a world ugly to look at.

I wonder if orestes and pylades ever fucked just for fun while being exiles.

>>18078140
ew no thats gay, why would they dishonor themselves like that?

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>>18077770
>>18077814
So this is the power of Greek literature...

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Negative one roman twink lead to the destruction of Israel. Based.

>>18075761
Why was Apollo such a whore?

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>>18078231
Philostratus was down bad, simping for boy-whores.

Letter 19: To a Boy who is a Prostitute:
>You offer yourself for sale; yes, mercenary soldiers do the like. You belong to anyone who pays your price; yes, so do pilots. We drink of you as of the streams; we feel of you as of the roses. Your lovers like you because you too stand naked and offer yourself for examination—something that is a peculiar right of beauty alone—beauty fortunate in its freedom of action. Pray, do not be ashamed of your complaisance, but be proud of your readiness; for water too is public property, and fire belongs to no individual, and the stars belong to all, and the sun is a common god. Your house is a citadel of beauty, those who enter are priests, those who are garlanded are sacred envoys, their silver is tribute money. Rule graciously over your subjects, and receive what they offer, and, furthermore, accept their adoration.

Begging to get roses back from a boy because they carry his boysmell.

Letter 46: To a Boy:
>You have done well to use the roses for a bed also; for pleasure in gifts received is a clear indication of regard for the sender. So through their agency I also touched you, for roses are amorous and artful and know how to make use of beauty. But I fear that they may actually have been restless and oppressed you in your sleep, even as the gold oppressed Danae. If you wish to do a favour for a lover, send back what is left of them, since they now breathe a fragrance, not of roses only, but also of you.

Letter 57: To a Boy:
>You are persuaded, I fancy, but you hesitate for fear the deed might bring disgrace. Are you, then, shirking an act that makes a friend? Was it not because of this that the poems of Homer were filled with beautiful lads when he brought Nireus and Achilles to Troy? Was it not because of this that all Harmodiuses and Aristogeitons were friends even to the point of death by the sword? And was it not because of this that Apollo fell into subjection to Admetus and to Branchus? And did not Zeus carry off Ganymede, in whom he delights even more than in his nectar? For you handsome lads, and you alone, inhabit even heaven as your city. Do not begrudge yourself a lover who cannot indeed give you immortality but can give you his own life. If you do not believe me, I am ready to die, if that is your command, at this very moment. If I plait the noose, you inhuman boy, will you not take it from me?

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>>18075671
When is that French boypill thread coming?

>>18078364
>>18078379
Now thats just desperate.
Also why are boys with wings so cute?

Letter 5: To a Boy:
>From what land are you? Tell me, boy, since you are so impervious to love. From Sparta, you will say? Then did you not see Hyacinthus, or crown yourself with the lifeblood from his wound? Or from Thessaly? Then did not the great Achilles either, the man of Plithia, teach you a lesson? Or from Athens? Then did you not pass the statues of Harmodius and Aristogeiton? Or from Ionia? Yet what more voluptuous than that land, the realm of the Branchuses and the Claruses, the darlings of Apollo? Or from Crete, where Eros is most great, Eros who roams its hundred cities? A Scythian you seem to me to be, and a barbarian—from that dread altar and from those inhospitable rites. So then it is within your power to observe your ancestral custom; and if you are unwilling to spare my life, here’s the sword. I am not asking for mercy—have no fear of that! Even for a wound I yearn.

Letter 7: To a Boy:
>Because I am poor I seem to you of less worth; and yet even Eros himself is naked, and so are the Graces and the Stars. And in paintings I see even the great Heracles clad in a wild beast’s pelt and sleeping, for the most part, on the ground; and Apollo with just a breechclout on, throwing the discus, or shooting the bow or running; whereas the kings of the Persians live delicately and sit on lofty thrones, using majesty as a screen to guard their store of gold—and so it was that they fared ill, conquered by the impecunious Greeks. Socrates was a beggar, but the rich Alcibiades crept under his coarse cloak. For poverty is not a reproach, nor does the individual’s fortune excuse his fault in our relations with one another. Look at the theatre: the audience is made up of poor people. Look at the courts of law : it is the indigent who sit there. Look at the battlefields; the men with the costly armour of gold desert the ranks, whereas we win prizes for valour.

>And in this very matter of our relations with you handsome boys, consider how great the difference is. The rich man deals haughtily with the boy who has accepted him—feeling that the boy is bought and paid for; the poor man is grateful, feeling that the boy is taking pity on him. The former gives himself airs because of his quarry; the poor man holds his tongue. Then again the nabob ascribes his success to the influence of his personal power, whereas the poor man ascribes his to the kindheartedness of the boy who made the gift. The rich man sends as his messenger a toady or a parasite or a cook or his table-servants; the poor man sends himself, so as not to fail of deference in this point either, by not doing it himself. The rich man is, by his present, promptly exposed, for the affair is detected because so many people are privy to it, so that neither the neighbours nor those wayfarers who pass by fail to learn what has happened; the boy who has a poor man for a lover is unobserved, for the man’s solicitation has nothing showy about it, and, since the man tries to avoid having outsiders reveal the facts and having a crop of rivals spring up from the number of those who have more power than he has (as could very easily happen), he does not avow his good fortune but conceals it. What need of many words? The rich man calls you his beloved; I call you my master. He calls you his servant; I call you my god. He calls you a part of his property; I call you my all; hence if he falls in love again with someone else, he wall behave the same to him, whereas the poor man falls in love but once. Who can remain by your side when you are ailing? Who can stay awake with you? Who can go out to camp with you? Who can put himself in front of you when an arrow is sped? Who can fall in death for you? In all these ways I’m rich.

>>18078379
It's not bad enough that they're gay, MED-MENA, pedo-fags, but they're so ugly they have to pay to get laid.......SAD.

>>18078392
"""French"""? That's AT LEAST 1/2 nigger......AT LEAST!!!

>>18078392
There isn't that much material on France. Accounts of the Gauls are scarce, and since the spread of Judeo-Christianity, pederasty has been criminalized.

>story about how great it is to run barefoot in the grass
>homosexual pedophile gets an erection so that means greeks were pedos
not beating the accusations

>>18078471
What's with this bit though
>We shall all kiss your footprints. O perfect lines of feet most dearly loved!

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>>18078471
Nope, just a poor blooded swarthy Francoid.

>>18078462
You are just lazy.

>>18078471
He's sending a letter to a boy asking him not to wear shoes because he's a foot fetishist.

Letter 17: To a Boy
>Both beauty and the rose have their spring; and he who enjoys not what is to his hand is foolish; for he delays among delights that do not brook delay, and in the face of fleeting joys he loiters. Time indeed is grudging and effaces the bloom on the flower and carries away the heyday of beauty. Do not delay at all, O rose with voice of man, but, while you may and while you live, share with me what you have.

Letter 14: To a Boy:
>My greetings, even though you do not wish them; my greetings, even though you do not write, for others fair, for me contemptuous! So, after all, you are not made of flesh and of whatever else is mingled with flesh, but of steel and stone and Styx. I pray that I may soon behold you getting a beard and sitting as a suppliant at others’ doors. Yea, Eros and Nemesis are swift gods and fickly turning.

>>18078526
I wonder if any of these actually got him laid [spoiler]or punched in the face[/spoiler]

>>18078526
Gays really are incapable of understanding what these people are talking about because of their maggot brains

Do you think gym bros are all gay? Is exercise homosexual? Fucking stupid

>>18078667
Do gym bros say this to each other?
>We shall all kiss your footprints. O perfect lines of feet most dearly loved!

crazy to think that in these supposed enlightened modern times people still don't understand that love is culturally defined. what is a "lover"? a retarded modernoid may think that it's just a bitch you pick up at the clumb to brutally pound in the ass. and so they think, hey, when the greeks speak of beautiful lovers, they must mean people they brutally pounded in the ass! and no doubt, there was some element of this, but this was far from the normal situation, especially in mythological and respectable contexts.

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>>18078677
>another pleb who doesnt read the thread

>>18078677
You're the one reducing it to base sexuality here. But obviously they mean 'lover' in the sense of a romantic lover, because they are using the word erastes

>>18078674
Just so you know in order to be homosexual you have to be low IQ and they lie to you guys about you being intelligent

>>18078684
i'm not going to waste my time reading an agendaposting /his/tard, to even use a term like "homosexuality" in the context of ancient greece demonstrates your complete incapacity to participate in educated discussion of the matter. "homosexuality" as a term and concept emerged in the enlightenment when bourgeois intellectuals were trying to codify a naturalistic explanation for the phenomenon of sodomy, initially in a way that rejected clerical explanations while still retaining negative prejudice against sodomites. modern views about this phenomenon share virtually nothing in common with the actual reality of man-to-man relations, which we cannot even necessarily always describe as "man-to-man attraction" because even this term carries a whole host of implicit modern assumptions that would not be true in the ancient world.
the ancient greek culture had a special relationship and awareness with the body, meaning that all bodies could be adored and marvelled at, as well as appreciated for their beauty. this can even attain erotic heights, without degenerating to the level of a sexually driven sodomite lust. obviously, sodomite lust has always existed in some form or another, and it was present in greece also. but people who try to argue that greece was somehow uniquely gay or idealised and worshipped "homosexuality" (not a thing in ancient greece) are either idiots or slanderers. both types are insufferable.
>>18078688
"romantic lover" is actually another modernist construction, assuming you are using it in the colloquial sense which is a vulgarisation of the modernist-Romanticist creation. if you want to understand ancient greek love, you must dig deep into the sources and understand that love only from the lens of the greeks, without reference to modern categories. these can only cause distortion.

>>18078693
Why do you keep posting in homosexual threads

>>18078734
Because fags are low IQ and it's funny to snap their dreams over my leg

>>18078729
In principle I agree with your historicist approach, anon, but I think you happen to be bringing your own preconceptions to the table when thinking about Ancient Greek love - namely Semitic and Christian notions like ‘sodomy’. If I were to erase all of my preconceptions about Ancient Greece, sexual categories, and so on, just from reading the primary sources I would develop a sense that Ancient Greece was a society in which sexual activity between males was widespread. Even when you read an exceptionally chaste writer like Plato, he explicitly discusses copulation between males in Symposium and the Phaedrus (consider how in Aristophanes myth of the hermaphrodite he discusses how Zeus positioned men’s private parts so that men and women could produce babies and so that men together could achieve sexual satisfaction and romantic fulfilment). And this is also evident from the fact that the reputation of the Greeks for ‘unnatural lust’, ‘Socratic love’, etc. was universal in the Arab and European Middle Ages.

>>18078748
Low IQ fags reading Greeks is hilarious because the project their faggotry into them and then come here and tell us we're the ones projecting

Unironically fags should die just from being so pathetic. The universe should just open up and swallow them up for being so ridiculous like something that shouldn't exist

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>>18078755
Nobody in this thread is a fag

>>18078766
Yeah right like the "why are the chuds not having sex thread and want to be friends with Hitler" thread want made by a faggot

Definitely the thread posting about kissing men's feet is as straight as can be

>>18078768
If they dont kiss the feet of those boys, what should they kiss?

>>18078748
i'm not necessarily invested into the concept of sodomy, it is just difficult to find the right language to discuss the topic since all the available language is poisoned with modernist assumptions that i am not fond of.
>just from reading the primary sources I would develop a sense that Ancient Greece was a society in which sexual activity between males was widespread
it depends on how you define sexual activity. in one of the platonic dialogues, i think it was lysis but i can't quite remember, socrates sees a really beautiful boy at the gymnasium, and he is so struck by the sight that he essentially loses his composure from erotic ecstasy. but is this 'sexual'? i would say that it is. if i felt erotically intoxicated at the sight of another, i would consider that a sexual phenomenon. but we also know that plato asserted the great value of erotic attraction between men, and both moral and aesthetic mutual appreciation, while explicitly and harshly censuring male on male sex. so, is socrates' erotic draw to the beautiful boy sexual, or is it non-sexual? something in between these two? hard to say.
>And this is also evident from the fact that the reputation of the Greeks for ‘unnatural lust’, ‘Socratic love’, etc. was universal in the Arab and European Middle Ages.
that lays outside the time period we are discussing, and moreover doubts could be raised about the accuracy of such opinions. the arabs at any rate are in no place to talk, lol.
either way, i would say that a very nuanced male love existed in various forms and various degrees of prevalence in ancient greece. i do not actually think it was as prevalent as people claim it is - we know for example of various laws existing against male sex in many parts of the greek world, which suggests that ancient greece was actually more restrictive on the issue than we are today.
cont

>>18078748
nevertheless, male sex still happened and had its own cultural and demographic niches. but i find it repulsive when people homogenise all of this sexual and quasi-sexual (from our perspective) behaviour into the modern concept of "homosexuality", and then go as far as to make claims about greek high cultural, mythological or spiritual values. the objective act of male on male penetrative (or even non-penetrative) sex has never been held in high spiritual esteem, and many myths that seem to touch on sexual taboos (like the castration or uranus or the myth of ganymede) were still generally symbolic despite the fact that the institution of poetry in ancient greek made cultural distortions at the hands of specific artists easy and common.
>>18078766
i'm kind of a fag actually, pansexual. but i still think it's unfair that greeks get called gay when the real situation is much more complex.

>>18078773
I never really happened upon the topic of homoerotic foot kissing when studying history, must be an experience limited to homosexuality

>>18078774
>he is so struck by the sight that he essentially loses his composure from erotic ecstasy
You're thinking of Charmides
>but we also know that plato asserted the great value of erotic attraction between men, and both moral and aesthetic mutual appreciation, while explicitly and harshly censuring male on male sex.
Actually anon it seems there isn't a difference of opinion between us. I'm glad you appreciate the historical complexities at play here. I thought at first you were using them to express an undue level of scepticism about the presence of any degree of visible sexuality among ancient Greek males, but you seem quite level-headed here. Foucault shared a similar point of view when he argued that the Greeks perceived boy love as "a problem" - something they discussed extensively precisely because they were uncertain about how to feel about it. That being said, it seems obvious to me that homoeroticism (for lack of a better term) has rarely been so visible or attained such a high level of cultural value in a Western society... I think we can say that it was at least geographically quite widespread, since we have evidence from Archaic poets - to use one example - from many different cities in the Greek peninsula (Ibycus in Samos, Pindar in Thebes, Simonides in Ioulis, Theognis in Megara, Anacreon in Teos, etc)

>>18078788
>Foucault
You mean the guy that invented a philosophy based around rejecting reality because he wasn't accepted for being a pedophile

>>18078788
>You're thinking of Charmides
i am not good with names, but iirc charmides was one of the 30 tyrants and there was another dialogue where socrates was erotically drawn to him (while his uncle iirc was also close by). but the one i am thinking of in particular was in a gymnasium setting.
>That being said, it seems obvious to me that homoeroticism (for lack of a better term) has rarely been so visible or attained such a high level of cultural value in a Western society...
i would disagree, i think it's more relevant today, at a much bigger scale, and still growing. but it's also on a much more vulgar and unimpressive level than it was in ancient greece. the really lofty elements of male-male superfriendly love (for lack of better term) are hardly even touched on today.

>>18078791
And then died of aids due to sodomy. Opposing reality has consequences.

>>18078486
Again I say, that """Frenchman""" is AT LEAST 1/2 nigger.......AT LEAST!

>>18078017
>No it doesn't, retard.

It does though

>Post these writings that supposedly prove that pederasty wasn't common or accepted or legal in ancient Greece

I was talking about philosophical debates

>1: The practice was widespread in general

The historical record points to it not being widespread but rather culturally/temporally unique in both its expression and tolerance

>2: Items depicting pederastic scenes were commonly owned by the lower/middle classes

Decorated pottery was never owned or commissioned by the lower classes, it was highly expensive

>3: They told stories about how their gods loved boys
>4: They worshiped gods that loved boys

Pagan tradition varied wildly and what was a foundational story to one city might be completely absent or even heretical to another. So no, we don't know what they considered cannon between time and place.

>5: Various writers often mention how the practice was common throughout society

Common through out the upper echelons, likely participated in exclusively by those who could purchase pleasure slaves

>6: They enjoyed plays which featured pederastic themes, or plays entirely centered around the theme of pederasty

Plays in Greece at least were also pretty much exclusively for the upper classes, a trend that would only reverse during the Roman period

>7: They voted for and celebrated politicians who were pederasts and/or did not legally disapprove of pederasty

I doubt pederasty was part of their stump speech; i.e we have no way of knowing how well known the degeneracy of the upper classes were to the majority

>8: There is no indication from any of the sources that the lower/middle classes were opposed to the practice

There is a lot of indication of the misery of slaves, who would have been the primary victims

>9: Elite opinion doesn't always diverge much from the lower classes

It often deviates completely, in fact it does this so often that it is almost archetypal to human civilization.

>>18078688
Raping a child is never anything but an extremely base act. It is why your fantasies are always temporally bound, after a child reaches a certain age they no longer have the requisite immaturity and stupidity to be easily manipulated. You lament it as puberty but really it is just them getting to a point of development whereby they can recognize your behavior for what it is. You, being an especially stupid case, prefer children who are extremely young because they are the only ones inexperienced enough to match up with your deficiencies.

>>18078766
fax

>>18075671
sodomy is yucky and unhealthy
normal people get the ick when they are exposed to it
a sort of visceral revulsion, like seeing a pile of stinky garbage
I think people who engage in it are unhygienic and in need of therapy

>any number of historical perspectives can easily be called into question
>one of these is the interpretation of greece as a queer paradise
>there's "people" convinced that in actuality it was even gayer
>the quote Foucault
>The quote they use from Foucault is him discussing how even semantically homosexuality in greece has a problem, because unrelatedly they had a problem with "overzealous" pederasty
>Revealing even Foucault to be a greek illiterate aidsbrain

The only people who deny greek faggotry are the people for whom ideology triumphs over everything. They fundamentally do not care and cannot care about facts that go against it - like the convict who can't understand how it'd feel to not eat breakfast that day if you ask them "How would you feel if something you liked historically disagreed with your worldview? They'd sincerely go:
>"But all history that interests me favors my worldview?"

They are too retarded to be able to comprehend otherwise. And I don't use that word to say arrogant or stubborn I mean they are legitimately 100% mentally handicapped and unable to comprehend it. They are literally fucking mentally disabled.

We can recognize the Greeks conducted something morally reprehensible and that should not be condoned and yet also be able to appreciate good things they did do. Unless you are this kind of swiss-cheese-brained faggot that exists today on the right and left which cannot separate the baby from the bathwater and goes "Durrr if they based then they never did anything cringe".

Greek sodomy was yucky and unhealthy. They still did it, and we can ignore or look past that to things they did that were positive.

Male love is the only real love that exists. When women were emancipated love died because it's a male only thing

OP is a dysgenic mutant that eliminates himself from the gene pool within a generation, he was likely given his affliction for this exact reason. His preference for children and specifically boys means that he only exists for a short while as a tortured faggot and then exits as unceremoniously as he entered.

>>18079747
The only people who promote greek faggotry are the people for whom ideology triumphs over everything. They fundamentally do not care and cannot care about facts that go against it

We can recognize the Greeks did not conduct something morally reprehensible. Unless you are this kind of swiss-cheese-brained faggot that exists today on the left and left

Gaygreek deniers are on the same level of mental gymnastics as christkeks. What's even funnier is that one retard who'll come in here to seethe all day, like he's looking for these threads lol

>>18078729
This is cope, the ancient Greeks fucked boys. Both in their holes and in their thighs.

>>18079134
>It does though
No it doesn't, the entire speech makes no sense if you assume that prostitution is used euphemistically, and virtually every historian who has ever read the text agrees that Timarchus was prosecuted for prostitution. Just because you have poor reading comprehension, doesn't mean Timarchus was prosecuted for homosexual acts.

>I was talking about philosophical debates
Can you post these philosophical debates that supposedly prove what you're claiming?

>The historical record points to it not being widespread but rather culturally/temporally unique in both its expression and tolerance
The historical record points towards it being widespread throughout the Greek world from the Archaic period through to the Roman period... which virtually all historians of ancient Greece agree on.

>So no, we don't know what they considered cannon between time and place
Many of these stories were widely known throughout the entire Greek world, for centuries. So really, what you meant is "I don't know what they considered between time and place" because of your own personal ignorance.

>Plays in Greece at least were also pretty much exclusively for the upper classes
No they weren't, they were enjoyed by all social classes. Especially in Athens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorica

>I doubt pederasty was part of their stump speech
The public favoured politicians who were pro-pederasty (i.e. Solon) and the pro-pederasty laws which they instituted (see Against Timarchus).

>in fact it does this so often that it is almost archetypal to human civilization
The majority of opinions held by elite individuals in most societies are held by the general public.

Also, this is your FOURTH reply. You are continuing to cry for me after claiming "talking to you is a waste of time". Why can't you stop riding my dick?

>>18079754
I love how insane the faggot conspiracy theories are

>>18079754
Unironically this is what some greeks thought and not in a gay way, in a totally masculine anti-woman kind of way

>>18079756
>>18079757
Cry about it straightfag

>>18079765
Listen, the entire argument for greek homosexuality is semantics

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>not a single refutation of the sources posted
>just impotent seething and name calling

>>18079768
If I agree everything you posted that is a direct quote from greek literature and OP did not lie and include false information what does it actually prove?

>>18079768
He's done that in several of these threads already. Lmao

>>18079776
What is actually proven by these text dumps? Are you hoping to get people to deny the content of the quotes?

Is this not the same strategy gaytheists used to torment christians with bible quotes?

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>>18079771
That there were a lot of homoerotic themes in Greco-Roman mythology.

>>18079779
Oh so not the people, because people claim that Zeus was gay

>>18079781
>gay

Still thinking in modern ideas. You're hopeless, go back to christian threads

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>>18079781
It implies it was normal to the Greeks as it would be abnormal to us if novels or movies featured a man romancing pubescent boys.

>>18079784
The amount of energy you have to spend to imagine this pre-christian gay utopia of Europe pales in comparison to implying the SINGLE word is misinterpreted

>>18079761
>No it doesn't, the entire speech makes no sense if you assume that prostitution is used euphemistically

The law specifically states that to outrage a child was illegal in Athens at the time of Aeschines' case, and this was one of the many statutes that were brought against Timarchus. Not sure where you got this bit of euphemism, are you hallucinating again?

>Can you post these philosophical debates that supposedly prove what you're claiming?

The stoics argued extensively on the morality of homosexual contact, especially relating to both passive and active partners. The evidence for the legality of such acts comes from the Timarchus case.

>The historical record points towards it being widespread throughout the Greek world

I strongly doubt any historian would deny that the practice had varying levels of tolerance and acceptability through out ancient Greece. It was, how do you put it, problematized in their society.

>Many of these stories were widely known throughout the entire Greek world, for centuries.

Pagan traditions have never had a central dogma or cannon and always varied regionally, this is just a fact no matter how upset it makes you.

>No they weren't, they were enjoyed by all social classes.

Plays were predominantly attended by the upper classes as plays/playwrights were viewed with far more respect before the Roman period.

>The public favoured politicians who were pro-pederasty

You have no way of knowing why they favored them or how genuine that favor was, you build your argument off of incredibly fragile assumptions.

>The majority of opinions held by elite individuals in most societies are held by the general public.

A once again incontrovertibly false statement to aid your flagging argument, poor little faggot, it is okay to concede you know?

This has to be the most jewish board on the whole site.

Is that....two men who love each other!? AAAAAAAIIIEEEE I. GOING INSANE HELP ME NIGGERMAN

>>18079813
>Greeks inherit a culture of Knight and aristocrat cultivation from minoans
>Central to Greece development
>It's called boy love
>Most people above the age of 10 realize this doesn't mean gays
>Gays: i am le ubermensch *hoists spork*
This is reddit tier

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>>18079824
Pederasty between knights and their squires would be an interesting topic for a thread or thesis.

>>18079832
Gays already dun goofed and have tried to claim samurai apprentices were fuckdolls. It's obvious you guys are historically illiterate

>>18075671
>Widely believed
Stopped reading.

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>>18079146
Man/boy love is not rape.

>>18079759
He's completely buckbroken, obsessed, and addicted to riding my dick. I raped and impregnated his fertile mindbussy months ago and now he cries for me every time I post a thread here because he developed Stockholm syndrome from the rape. He can't just accept that he is wrong and move on. He can't just not click the threads that cause him butthurt. He will continue crying for me and embarrassing himself by posting hilariously bad ahistorical arguments until he finally succumbs to death via an aneurysm induced by the stress I have inflicted upon him. Just look at the genuine seethe and vitriol in this post >>18079798, where he continues to post horrible arguments that have already been debunked, despite him claiming in this thread "I don't really have a bone to pick with you, you have already made your position indefensible and talking to you is a waste of time.

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>>18079859
please keep your ERP in your discord

>>18079836
>have tried to claim samurai apprentices were fuckdolls
They literally were though.

>>18079862
I will slap the gay out of you. You accuse others of being blinded. You're blinded by ass

>>18079836
Samurai, and Japs in general, were/are famously gay. Half of their art is based around trying to tell who is a Ladyboy vs. a Ladylady, or the Dirty Old Priest type. To this day, all female roles in Noh and Kabuki are played by men too.

I love the Nips, but """historically""" they're pretty fooking ghey.

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>>18079864
I wish had boy ass covering my face rn

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>>18079869
Yes yes just like the greeks are famously gay

how humorous

>>18079869
>the Tale of Genji
>that part where he cant get laid with a chick so he rapes her 12 year old brother
The Japs were pervert coomers already when an ankle was considered obscene in Europe still.

>>18079872
Pederasty was a common practice in ancient Greece and historical Japan. These are just historical facts.

>>18079878
So you admit you associate you misconception about greece with japan because of the similar social status of the people supposedly fucking

>>18079870
You're a pedophile.

>>18079889
Then I am in good company.

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>>18079880
What misconception? In historical Japan, it was considered normal for men to find boys attractive, and to have them as lovers. Buddhist monks and Samurai would famously take on boys as lovers in a pedagogical relationship as part of an institutionalized practice.

>>18079896
Nipponese were notorious pornographers so you better have something better than some trap porn. I'm talking shitting dicknipples

>>18079898
I'll make a thread about it, there's a lot of information to digest.

>>18079904
I wouldn't bother if you can't produce some kind of proof of institutionalized gayness. There would have to be volumes of some sort of gay rituals they'd do. The whole thing sounds silly

>>18079896
See, the Dirty Old Priest archetype. Many such cases. They Nips were so coo-coo for boipussy that they would literally jizz their pants if a Youth grew out their forelock, or danced as a woman in an play. The govt. had to pass countless laws to get all pervs from perving so often, but the officials were the perviest pervs of all. They still have fucking fucking hotels just for fucking and all the "men" wear more make up than an 80s Hair Metal band.

Das dus dhey culture doh.

>>18079859
It's good fun to torment you, you have to give him that

>>18080125
I'm not really doing it to torment them, I really do think it's rediculous to claim one of the main cultural practices that gave rise to european culture was somehow intrinsically homosexual. That flies in the face of even the biological duality sexual reproduction. Even claiming that is so groundbreaking, so earthshatteringly retarded it's a wonder why these people are allowed to entertain these ideas publicly. But on the off chance they are serious I learned all about it. It really is a case of if you claim something long enough people just go along with it.

>>18080156
I think the best part about this is he will be convinced that we are the same person now

>>18080162
I don't think they're that dumb. They're reading midling tier euro philosophy to justify their gayness

the guy who seethes eternally about gays is hilarious. Like there aren't people flying to asian countries to fuck asian femboy princesses in our time.

>>18080177
I don't care about gays when they mind their own business. "Be the freak you want to be just don't follow me".

>>18080180
you're gay brother just deal

>>18080183
I just don't think kidnapping boys to throw parties and work out and talk about feelings is being a pedophile. Weird, but Greek people are weird.

>>18080170
He seems quite convinced that I am the same person that he has been talking to for the last few months and I just don't have the heart to tell him that I only just learned about his existence last thread, with my first response to him being in this one. I have to say though I think I'll stick around because nothing sounds more fun than bullying a schizophrenic pedophile.

>>18080187
Oh it's not a big deal happens all the time. Especially with commies

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Its scary that Christianity is the only thing opposing and institutionalized system for the abuse of young boys.

>>18080201
Were they burning the sodomized boys to tie up loose ends?

>>18080201
They burned them cover up their own crimes

So if homosexuals are the ones “misinterpreting” Greece, does this mean Hitler and Nixon were homosexuals?

>Hitler lectured me on the role of homosexuality in history and politics. It had destroyed ancient Greece, he said. Once rife, it extended its contagious effects like an ineluctable law of nature to the best and most manly of characters, eliminating from the reproductive process those very men on whose offspring a nation depended.
Rudolf Diels, Lucifer Ante Portas

>If you look over the history of societies, you will find, of course, that some of the highly intelligent people, Oscar Wilde, Aristotle, etc. etc. etc. were all homosexuals.
>You know what happened to the Greeks. Homosexuality destroyed them. Aristotle was a homo, we all know that. So was Socrates.
Richard Nixon

>>18080225
Those are historians?

>>18080226
No but I’m curious where they got these ideas. Were they homosexuals? Or maybe brainwashed by homosexuals perhaps

>>18080226
No, and neither are you, but they are correct in their observations, regardless. You don't have to be a pilot to know a plane doesn't go into a tree in the same way you don't need to be """historian""" to know that pps don't go in butt holes.

I win.

>>18080229
Brainwashed from the zeitgeist and culture of their time.

>>18080225
This is such a foppish micropenis of a response man. If it were to be a myth it would be so because it is often repeated, that is sort of what makes a myth a myth. I am not going to say it was, but coping about some random historical figure riddling off trivia that they may or may not have actually said hardly constitutes a counter point.

deranged, underage, mentally ill most likely. Male homosex has been natural since time immemorial. It's the one thing powerful enough to defeat the jews.

>>18080234
Why did their time sanction these false and odious views? Was it because people used to read Greek and Latin texts in their originals? Or because homosexuals were somehow organising to push their false interpretations
>>18080235
I am only testing the thesis that homosexuals are responsible for this misinterpretation. If it is widespread, we ought to understand how it came about

>>18080225
Very interesting of both Adolf Hitler and Foucault to agree it was "overzealous" pederasty that was seen as the downfall of Greek society. As if their only perspective was the few philosophers that complained about it. Must have been a big deal indeed

>>18080241
>I am only testing the thesis that homosexuals are responsible for this misinterpretation. If it is widespread, we ought to understand how it came about

kek

>>18080246
Oh sorry I saw Richard Nixon and reflexively typed Adolf Hitler. I'm part of the zog

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>>18080241
There's been a two-thousand+ year conspiracy theory by the LGBT lobby to present the ancient Greeks as boy-loving homosexuals, and nobody realized that this was a falsehood until Leather Apron Club made a video about it a few years ago. That and, our noble scholars on /pol/ put together a couple infographs about it.

>>18080187
>so embarrassed about being called out for being an obsessed dickrider that he has to pretend to be a different person

>>18080284
I always thought it was constrained to the billionaire's club in athens or something, but when they started claiming all the soldiers were doing it it stopped making sense

>>18075671
you got any more, OP?

>>18080284
How many times are you going to sardonically post this? It's not like anyone cared the first 70 times.

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>>18080293
Homosexuality has always been the most common amongst soldiers, including in ancient Greece.

>>18080292
You are quite funny little fag man

>>18080297
>cares enough to seethe and respond
When are you going to explain the fact that there has been a two-thousand+ year conspiracy theory to present the ancient Greeks as homosexuals, according to your own views?

>>18080298
yeah you would have to believe that because they had apprentices

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>>18080296
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Statues_of_nude_boys

>>18080315
thanks!

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>>18080315
Wow I didnt know they built me a statue in Oslo.

Any lines you have of anal sex and oral sex?

>>18080302
Oh man, you give away the game to soon, you're not very good at this are you.

>>18075671
>Achilles and Patroclus
This one is up for debate tho, otherwise ancient Greek wouldn't debate this themselves

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>>18080438
Some Greek references to anal and oral sex:
>. . . While one loves boys among the lovely flowers of youth,
>Desiring their thighs and sweet mouths.
— Solon, fragment 25 West

>[537a] By Delphinius Apollo, here Crimon penetrated the son of Bathycles, brother of . . .
>[538b] Here Crimon penetrated Amotion.
— Graffiti from Thera = Inscriptiones Graecae

>[8] (early fifth century) Hegestratus had intercourse with me.
>[23] (second quarter of fifth century) Sydromachus of the gaping anus submitted.
— Inscriptions on Athenian Vases = Athenian Agora

>If a beautiful boy doesn’t give his ass to be fucked, may he not get a fuck when he falls in love with a beautiful girl.
— Greek graffito from Stabiae

>Herakleitos was fair, when there was a Herakleitos, but now that his prime is past, a screen of hide[2] declares war on those who are behind-mounters. But, son of Polyxenos, seeing this, be not insolently haughty. Even on the buttocks too there is a Nemesis growing.
— Meleagros 33, Greek Anthology

>The Hours and Graces shed sweet oil on you, buttocks, and you do not let even old men sleep. Tell me, whose are you, blessed one, and which of the boys do you adorn? The buttocks answered: “Menekrates’.
— Rhianos 38, Greek Anthology

>Once a trainer, opportunely instructing a smooth lad,
>Getting him to his knees, worked over his middle,
>Touching the boy’s nuts with his hand. But by chance
>The master came, seeking the boy.
>Quickly the trainer, bracing him with his feet, turned the boy
>On his back and with his hand grasped the boy’s throat.
>However, the master, not unskilled in wrestling, said to him:
>“Stop. You are,” said he, “gagging the kid.”
— Strato, AP

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>Never lay her heavy with child on your bed face to face,
>taking pleasure in procreative Cypris.
>For in the middle, there will be a huge wave, and it will be no small labour
>as she is rowed and you ride at anchor.
>No, turn her round and take pleasure in her rosy bottom,
>thinking of your wife as male-boy Cypris.
— Dioscorides 7

>Demosthenes: Of all these you shall be the paramount chief, chief too of the market, the harbors, and the Pnyx. You’ll trample on Council and trim back the generals; you’ll chain, you’ll imprison, you’ll . . . suck cocks in the Prytaneum.
— Aristophanes, Knights, 164 – 67

>Sausage-seller: And, oh yeah, there are other pranks of mine, when I was a boy. I used to trick the butchers by saying this sort of thing: “Look, boys, don’t you see? The new season; a swallow!” And they’d look up, and in the meantime I’d steal some of their meat.
>Demosthenes: You clever bloke! That was a wise piece of planning: you stole, like people eat nettles, before the swallows came.
>Sausage-seller: And nobody saw me doing it. But if ever any of them did, I’d hide the stuff up my crotch and swear my innocence by the gods. So that one of the politicians said, when he saw me doing that, “It’s as certain as certain can be that this boy will one day hold the stewardship of the people.”
>Demosthenes: He guessed well. But it’s obvious what led him to that conclusion: the fact that you perjured yourself after committing a robbery, and that you had someone else’s meat up your ass.
— Aristophanes, Knights 417–28

>Paphlagon: And what is more, by Zeus, with my wizardry I can make Demos expand and contract at my pleasure.
>Sausage-Seller: Even my asshole knows that trick.
— Aristophanes, Knights 719 –21

>Every dumb animal only screws. But we reasoning men
>Have this over other animals,
>We have discovered butt-fucking. But those who conquer women,
>They have nothing over dumb animals.
— Strato, AP

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Some Roman references to anal and oral sex:
>Often when there’s just one dollar left in your wallet,
>And even it’s more worn than your asshole, Hyllus,
>Still it’s not the baker who’ll take it away from you, not the bartender,
>But some guy who’s proud of his oversized dick.
>Your poor belly just watches the feast for your asshole
>And always goes hungry, while the other one gobbles.
— Martial 2.51

>When your boy’s prick hurts, Naevolus, along with your asshole,
>I’m no fortuneteller, but I know what you’re doing.
— Martial 3.71

>As long as they are able to take the passive role, they first depilate their buttocks.
— Novius, The Comic Encore

>She covers you with blood and he, on the other hand, covers you with shit.
— Lucilius 1186 M

>As he walked by, he saw Dossenus in play, not modestly teaching his fellow student, but stroking his butt.
— Pomponius Bononiensis, Maccus the Virgin

>Indemnities for theft by woman, man, or boy:
>Her, pussy; him, head; the last, his ass.
— Priapea 22

>Bugger the boy, fuck the girl;
>For the bearded thief the third degree.
— Priapea 13

>I’ll bugger you, thief, for the first offense.
>The second time, into the mouth it goes.
>But if you commit a third theft
>Your ass will taste my vengeance—
>And then your mouth again.
— Priapea 35

>I have buggered no citizen through deceit, only the kind who willingly bent over, himself begging me.
— Pomponius Bononiensis, The Prostitute

>Charisianus denies that he’s been able
>To bugger anyone now, for many days.
>And when his friends were asking him the reason,
>He said it was that he was down with diarrhea.
— Martial 11.88

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>[1825] Cosmus, Equitia’s slave, is a big pervert (cinaedus) and cocksucker, with legs spread apart.
>[1825a] Narcissus is the biggest cocksucker.
>[1882] Whoever fucks a boy on fie hurts his cock.
>[2048] SECUNDUS has fucked boys till they hurt.
>[2210] I want to fuck a boy.
>[2319b] Vesbinus is a pervert (cinaedus); Vitalio has fucked him.
>[5408] Felix sucks for a nickel.
>[8805] On the ninth of September, Q. Postumius asked A. Attius to allow me to fuck him.
>[8841] Martial, you suck Proculus.
>[9027] Secundus is a cocksucker of rare ability.
>[10232a] L. Habonius plows Caesonius Felix and puts it in his mouth.
— Selected Pompeian graffiti = CIL 4

These passages are from a book on dream interpretation:
>[78.7] To have sex with one’s own female slave or male slave is good, for slaves are the dreamer’s possessions, therefore taking pleasure in them signifies the dreamer’s being pleased with his own possessions, most likely because of their increase in number or value.
>[78.8] To be penetrated by one’s house slave is not good. This signifies being despised or injured by the slave. The same applies to being penetrated by one’s brother, whether older or younger, or a fortiori by one’s enemy. . . .
>[78.11] To be penetrated by an acquaintance is profitable for a woman, depending on what sort of man is entering her. For a man to be penetrated by a richer, older man is good, for the custom is to receive things from such men. To be penetrated by a younger, poorer man is bad, for it is the custom to give to such. The same meaning applies if the penetrator is older but poorer.

>[78.13] Concerning intercourse contrary to convention, one must analyze as follows. To penetrate a son under five years of age signifies the child will die, a result which I have often observed. Probably the significant connection is the infant’s corruption, for we call death a corruption. If the child is over five but under ten, he will be sick and the dreamer will be foolishly involved in some business and will take a loss. The sickness is signified by the pain of a child being penetrated before the right age and season, the dreamer’s loss is through his folly, for it is not the act of a man of sound mind to penetrate his own son or any other boy of that age. If the son is a young adolescent and the father is poor, he will send his son to a teacher and the tuition he pays for his son will be a kind of expenditure into him. If a rich man has this dream, he will give his son many gifts and transfer property to his name, undergoing a loss of substance.
>[78.20] To penetrate one’s brother, whether older or younger, is good for the dreamer; for he will be above his brother and will look down on him.
>[79.13] He who is fellated by a friend or a relative or a child who is no longer an infant will develop an enmity with the fellator; he who is fellated by an infant will bury the infant, for it is no longer possible to kiss such a one. He who is fellated by an unknown person will suffer some penalty or other, because of the useless ejaculation of seed.
— Artemidorus, Dream Analysis

Straight bros… we got too cocky this time…

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>>18080634
>[2210] I want to fuck a boy.

>>18075822
Exactly

>>18080634
Kek

>>18080634
>Best examples are criminals
Lol

>>18081031
How are they criminals?

>>18081031
Graffiti wasn't illegal

>>18081034
The graffiti was accusing people of criminal sexual acts

>>18081057
Which one? Prostitution wasnt illegal.

>>18081063
Yes it was

>>18081066
No it wasnt.
It was shunned but totally legal.

>>18081068
It was definitely illegal, meaning the graffiti is probably not true

>>18081100
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_ancient_Rome

You could have just Googled that.

>>18081109
These weren't prostitutes these were men *yawn*

>>18080634
Pompeian graffiti, where a bunch of dudes call each other gay. Hmmmm, I wonder what parallels that might have today, people talking shit anonymously about other people they don't like. Also I find it hilarious that that next quote is a passage which explicitly lays out the class dynamics of sex in antiquity. You realize the whole point of everyone arguing against you for the last 30 threads has always been that it was degenerate old faggots taking advantage of their slaves and socio-economic inferiors. You post a passage which confirms exactly this with exactly zero self awareness, in typical fashion.

>>18081545
That's only one part of the evidence presented in this thread, and it's Roman graffiti.

>>18081545
>where a bunch of dudes call each other gay
They were calling boys gay... who they were having sex with.

>>18075671
>he keeps their erotic love hidden and the proper name of their friendship, thinking that the exceptional extent of their affection made things clear to the educated members of his audience
He's been mogging paint chewers for longer than the pyramids had existed during his time.
>>18075689
look here, it's already working.

>>18082823
source?

>>18082823
If you could just admit to the pederastic/homosexual relationships that existed in Greece and Rome were tightly bound up in a extremely hierarchical society that by default placed passive partners at the bottom of said hierarchy, then there would be no honest ground from which to refute your claim that it was widespread. It is precisely because you need ancient pederasty to have been about your weirdo hippie NAMBLa shit that people take issue with you. Why does it bother you so much that this is what the practice was man? Did you really think consent mattered to fucking anyone and especially then? Cultural. Relativism.

>>18083054
>If you could just admit to the pederastic/homosexual relationships that existed in Greece and Rome were tightly bound up in a extremely hierarchical society that by default placed passive partners at the bottom of said hierarchy
The Romans and Greeks had differing views on pederastic relationships.

>Did you really think consent mattered to fucking anyone and especially then?
Raping both freeborn boys and slaves was illegal in Athens.

>>18083063
>Raping both freeborn boys and slaves was illegal in Athens.

Outraging was; i.e making them passive partners -- an outrageous event. Aeschines also specifically clarifies that they don't really mean slaves that's just to make sure you don't do it to freeborn children. It's like so glaringly obvious and you just can't hope to accept it because Greece NEEDS to be a heckin wholesome NAMBLa paradise or some shit.

>>18083063
>The Romans and Greeks had differing views on pederastic relationships.

They didn't view passive partners differently

>>18083076
>Outraging was; i.e making them passive partners -- an outrageous event
No, that's not what outrage is. Having a sexual relation with a boy was not viewed as a form of outrage. Aeschines does not even argue that it should be viewed as a form of outrage.

>Aeschines also specifically clarifies that they don't really mean slaves
He cites a law stating that outrage against both freeborn boys and slaves is illegal, and then gives a rhetorical spin on why slaves were including in the law. The law specifically states that outrage against slaves is not legal, which demolishes your feminist notion that the ancient Greeks had some sort of "rape culture".

>>18083078
It was legal for men to have sexual relations with freeborn boys in ancient Greece, so your assertion that they didn't view passive partners differently than in Rome is utterly baseless, silly, and can be disregarded. You also aren't providing any sources.

Why can't you just accept that ancient Greece and Rome were two totally different societies, which had different views on things? Instead of trying to fit both of these ancient societies into your 21st century feminist revisionist framework?

>>18083107
We know that Greece viewed being a passive partner as outrageous, a point of social shame, etcetera. We know that good families would not want their children to be subject to outrage on these grounds. What exactly do you think outrage means in this context then?

>>18083107
What class of people, moreover, would it not matter to outrage?

>>18083115
>We know that Greece viewed being a passive partner as outrageous
Source?

>We know that good families would not want their children to be subject to outrage on these grounds
Good families often wanted their sons to have a sexual relationship with an older man, because this was viewed as aiding his development.

Congratulations on trying to equivocate the word "outrageous" with the ancient Greek legal concept of hubris.

>What exactly do you think outrage means in this context then?
Maybe you could just Google it before making a bunch of moronic statements about something you have zero (0) knowledge about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris#Legal_usage

Aeschines argues, rhetorically, that soliciting a freeborn boy should be viewed as a form of outrage. He does not cite a law stating that soliciting a freeborn boy is a form of outrage, and he does not cite a law stating that having a sexual relation with a freeborn boy is a form of outrage, nor does he argue that it should even be viewed as a form of outrage. Aeschines throughout his speech makes it clear that he does not believe that sexual relations with a freeborn boy is a bad thing.

>>18083120
In Athens it was not legal to commit outrage against a slave, as per a law directly cited by Aeschines. Despite you insisting that they had a rape culture.

>obsessed dog continues barking for me and embarrassing himself by revealing himself to be utterly clueless

>>18083137
>Source?

What's the old myth? Goes something like shame will only enter through the asshole and therefore gay men have no shame; i.e their acts are so shameful that in order to participate in such acts the passive partner must have no shame. Oh and all the other slander/slurs they had for homosexual passives (sometimes even actives).

>Good families often wanted their sons to have a sexual relationship with an older man

Weird they would have laws against outrage then, are we to assume the shota in your little fanfic is the one penetrating?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris#Legal_usage

>Yet another example of hubris appears in Aeschines' Against Timarchus, where the defendant, Timarchus, is accused of breaking the law of hubris by submitting himself to prostitution and anal intercourse.

So it's exactly what I said ... anal intercourse. Holy shit man you really got to work on reading these before you shit them out.

>In Athens it was not legal to commit outrage against a slave, as per a law directly cited by Aeschines

Weird that they would specify, right after mentioning that clause, that the slaves don't really matter.

>>18083160
I think I just psychically heard pederastyanon screeching, good job on getting him to full rage quit the thread lmao

>>18083160
>What's the old myth? Goes something like shame will only enter through the asshole and therefore gay men have no shame
That's an obscure fable attributed to Aesop, which dates to the late Roman empire.

>Oh and all the other slander/slurs
We have a massive amount of actual historical sources relating to homosexuality in Greece/Rome, and all you resort to is your misinterpretation of lexical evidence.

>Weird they would have laws against outrage then
Laws against hubris did not criminalize sexual relations between males, try again.

>Weird that they would specify, right after mentioning that clause
Outrage against slaves wasn't legal, as per the law cited by Aeschines. I don't know why you keep belaboring this point.

>>18083447
>That's an obscure fable attributed to Aesop, which dates to the late Roman empire.
>We have a massive amount of actual historical sources relating to homosexuality in Greece/Rome

No one is ever denying that it existed, just that being a passive partner was extremely shameful and thus largely reserved for slaves. I'm sure there were exceptions to even this, but exceptions prove the rule. Pederasty was the rape of slave boys, nothing more nothing less.

>Laws against hubris did not criminalize sexual relations between males, try again.

Hubris is explicitly mentioned as committing anal intercourse with free-born people/citizens

> I don't know why you keep belaboring this point.

Because Aeschines said that the slaves were not the concern of the law or its makers, directly, I have you dead to rights here it would be better for yourself if you conceded but I doubt you will.

>>18083480
>just that being a passive partner was extremely shameful and thus largely reserved for slaves
>Pederasty was the rape of slave boys, nothing more nothing less
Do you have sources to prove your assertion that pederasty was largely reserved to slave boys in Greece?

>Hubris is explicitly mentioned as committing anal intercourse with free-born people/citizens
Can you show me the source for this assertion?

>Because Aeschines said that the slaves were not the concern of the law or its makers, directly
But this is irrelevant, because the law he cites directly states that hubris against slaves is illegal. Also, this is just his opinion for all we know.

>>18083486
>>18083486
>Do you have sources to prove your assertion that pederasty was largely reserved to slave boys in Greece?

Lets do a little inductive reasoning here. Being penetrated or at all a passive partner in sexual relations in both Greek and Roman society was viewed as extremely shameful. There was a class of people for which shame did not matter as they were not technically people, but property. Who do you think, given these little tidbits of info, would constitute the majority of passive male partners in pederastic relationships? I'm sure you'll find a way to hit yourself over the head a few times before answering this but really this question is posed more to the audience.

>Can you show me the source for this assertion?

The Aeschines case

>But this is irrelevant, because the law he cites directly states that hubris against slaves is illegal.

I think it's implied that this clause is not enforced but rather acts as an intensifier to ensure that no greasy old faggots go for respectable young citizens, which makes a lot of sense, heaven knows they wouldn't want their boys turning out to be specimens like yourself.

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>>18083490
>Lets do a little inductive reasoning here
Can you provide a source instead?

>The Aeschines case
Can you highlight where in Aeschines' speech he mentions anal intercourse with a freeborn person being considered a form of hubris?

>I think it's implied that this clause is not enforced
No it isn't. He directly cites a law which explicitly states that hubris against slaves is not illegal, and then gives a rhetorical account of why the lawmakers made hubris against slaves illegal. This law provides evidence that hubris against slaves was illegal. We know from other sources that rape was considered a form of hubris; so raping boys was not legal in Athens, despite your assertion that "pederasty was the rape of slave boys, nothing more nothing less".

Also, why are you continuing to cry for me, despite claiming "I don't really have a bone to pick with you, you have already made your position indefensible and talking to you is a waste of time"? You seem quite obsessed.

>>18083498
*that hubris against slaves is not legal

>>18083498
>Also, why are you continuing to cry for me, despite claiming

I think its quite funny that you are convinced I am your nemesis considering that I was not even aware of your existence until this thread.

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Homos gave you civilization. Stop complaining about a little ass fucking here and there.

If you have complaints about the morality of slave fucking or underage fucking, then please make separate threads on the subject.

Because I can assure you that the heterosexual examples far outweigh the homo ones.

>>18083507
Other posters ITT have called you out for being the obsessed dickrider that seethes in every single thread about pederasty. It's obvious. Don't lie.

>>18083516
Keep going, like I said your schizophrenia is entertaining to me.

>>18083498
>Can you highlight where in Aeschines' speech he mentions anal intercourse with a freeborn person being considered a form of hubris?

Considering it was a statute brought against a man who was charged with doing exactly that

>>18083523
Can you highlight the passage(s) in the speech which prove your position?

>>18083525
Oh sure, and how about something a little more damning?

>He forbids the teacher to open the school-room, or the gymnastic trainer the wrestling school, before sunrise, and he commands them to close the doors before sunset; for he is exceeding suspicious of their being alone with a boy, or in the dark with him. He prescribes what children are to be admitted as, pupils, and their age at admission. He provides for a public official who shall superintend them, and for the oversight of slave-attendants of school-boys. He regulates the festivals of the Muses in the school-rooms, and of Hermes in the wrestling-schools. Finally, he regulates the companionships that the boys may form at school, and their cyclic dances.

>see, fellow citizens, with what moderation I am going to deal with Timarchus here. For I remit all the sins that as a boy he committed against his own body; let all this be treated as were the acts committed in the days of the Thirty, or before the year of Eucleides,1 or whenever else a similar statute of limitations has been passed. But what he is guilty of having done after he had reached years of discretion, when he was already a youth, and knew the laws of the state, that I will make the object of my accusation, and to that I call upon you to give serious attention.

>The names of the merchants or other foreigners, or of our own citizens, who enjoyed the person of Timarchus in those days I will pass over willingly, that no one may say that I am over particular to state every petty detail. But in whose houses he has lived to the shame of his own body and of the city

>for Timarchus was well developed, young, and lewd, just the person for the thing that Misgolas wanted to do, and Timarchus wanted to have done.

>Timarchus did not hesitate, but submitted to it all

>Among the many ridiculous things which Timarchus did in those days was one which I wish to relate to you. The occasion was the procession at the City Dionysia. Misgolas, who had taken possession of him, and Phaedrus, son of Callias, of the deme Sphettus, were to march in the procession together. Now Timarchus here had agreed to join them in the procession, but they were busy with their general preparations, and he failed to come back. Misgolas, provoked at the thing, proceeded to make search for him in company with Phaedrus. They got word of him and found him at lunch with some foreigners in a lodging-house. Misgolas and Phaedrus threatened the foreigners and ordered them to follow straight to the lock-up for having corrupted a free youth. The foreigners were so scared that they dropped everything and ran away as fast as they could go.

kek