To what extent can Christianity be considered a Hellenic religion?
65%
>>18095040*69%
>>18095040that's pretty good I think
>>18095040>>18095042>higher than 50%christianity is judaism-tards BTFO
>>18095038Greek religion was 40% Semitic
>>18095053Semitic religions were 90$% IE.
>>18095046>christianity is judaism-tards BTFOJews did not believe in souls.
>>18095038depends on how you define christianity...worshiping a jew obviously is not, for example
Hellenic, as in belonging to or originating among the Hellenes, the endonym used by people we call Greeks?Not even a little bit. Hellenized, as in following in the wake of Greek cultural ascendancy due to the conquests of Alexander the Great?Well the new testament is written in Greek after all, and the version of the Old Testament quoted in those books was a Greek translation from the Aramaic made for Greeks. And during that time many Jews spoke Greek as a first language, especially in Alexandria and other cities. Aramaic first language people were rural hicks, and even then some passing familiarity with Greek would be common. In the similar sense that you can expect most Americans to know enough basic Spanish to say I need to go to the bathroom or to call someone's mother a bitch. That's not a great example, bilingual cultures formed from a synthesis of two different cultures coexisting for centuries aren't most Americans. But Americans like that are out there for sure, depending on location.None of that has anything to do with the tenets of Christian faith however, which are indeed firmly rooted in the Old Testament and 2nd Temple period Judaism as any cursory overview of the commentary literature can demonstrate.You'd have to argue that Judaism itself was Hellenic, which is schizo bait or shameless trolling from known pseud grifters. The closest you get is Philo of Alexandria who, though influential and wealthy, was an outlier in his reading of Plato. More in line with something you'd expect from a Judean elite is Josephus, who also wrote in Greek.Philo's concept of Logos (he called it God's first born son), while compared with the pagan Greeks, speaks on examination instead to a contemporary Jewish concept called "Memra".Different languages have different words for the same concept. The use of logos in John for example is to be expected in such an environment, not evidence of any foreign element making it's way into the religion of the apostles.
>>18095038As in Hellenic Jews? 95%.
>>18095038Sub-zero.
>>18095038Paul says Greek wisdom is for fools. Christians use Aristotle and other Hellenic philosophy to try and prove Yahweh exists. Epic fail.
>>18095038It is majority Hellenic. The entire philosophy of Christianity is a product of Greek converts overwriting whatever the original Jewish group believed.The identification of God/Christ with the concept of Logos is a pure Hellenization, but you'll see Catholics do so without any doubt or concern. Christianity owes more to the Pre-Socratic-Platonic tradition of Greek pseudomonotheism than it does very much in ancient Judaism. Look at the work of a guy like Xenophanes, an extremely old Greek philosopher, and see how much it has in common with what Christianity became past the 1st Century. Nothing Jewish at all about that.
>>18095581If you understand Xenophanes half as well as you claim, it would be trivial to provide an example from memory.And yet, you haven't.I could ask which work are you alluding to, much less the section in which the material note is contained.Moreover, having heard of the man before and never read him, I would be interested in sauce. Which this post of yours conspicuously lacks.Please, do go on.>Greek pseudomonotheismSo when people claim this influence was Semetic, you must throw your hands up and declare it's impossible for reasons.
>>18095629Here's one quick source (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Eminent_Philosophers/Book_IX#Xenophanes)Xenophanes rejected traditional Greek polytheism. He said that God was a single metaphorically spherical point of total unity that existed eternally as a being of pure thought that was omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, and was the source and origin of all goodness in the world (and was itself ontologically all good). He believed that polytheism was projection and that if cows could talk, they'd talk about cow headed gods. Anthropomorphization was anathema to God. Additionally this material world falls short of God's world of thought and forms, and that perfection exists within God alone. This, if you're aware of how Catholicism references Aristotle constantly, should be extremely familiar. This also isn't at all like what you see in traditional Jewish theology. Where God is absolutely anthropomorphized, even if his power and intelligence is unfathomably above our own. As well, the focus on forms in the mind of God vs material reality is an extremely Greek concept that would later only grow in importance in Christian philosophy. And not something that is traditional to Jewish theology.
>>18095038Entirely so, as 100% of his Works & Deeds are recorded in Greek and only Greek. Language is culture and without a Semitic language to record the actions of a Semitic savior in a Semitic location with nothing but fellow Semites around all of whom failed to mention their fellow Semite, then His story can in no way be considered Semitic, much less "Jewish(tm)". Do the Chinese record the actions of their fellow Chinese in China in the French language? No, that would be silly. The NT is Greek Mythology that is set in Palestine the same way many other Greek Myths were set outside of the Peloponnese proper. Jesus was many things but a very Jewish Jew in very Jewish Judea was not one of them.
>>18095490"""Paul""" was a """Hebrew""" who wrote his "Letters to the Hebrews" in the language of the Hebrews........Greek, and only Greek. Just like 100% of the rest of the OT and NT. /thread
>>18095655>God was a single metaphorically spherical point of total unity that existed eternally as a being of pure thoughtSo he conceived of God as the Monad.A similar attestation is witnessed by Philo, who could be rightfully credited as the earliest known attesor of the Ein Sof reckoned by certain kabbalists of later periods.>if cows could talk, they'd talk about cow headed godsYeah, that saying is familiar to me.>if you're aware of how Catholicism references Aristotle constantly, should be extremely familiarNot at all.Scholastic dedication to the method of Aristotle is in no ways a deification of Aristotle himself.>Anthropomorphization was anathema to God.And yet the bible itself is filled to the brim with the image of God as in the form of man. I do not need to cite anything regarding this fact.>this material world falls short of God's world of thought and formsBut for the will of God.>focus on forms in the mind of God vs material reality And is there any conflict in the will and mind of God?>an extremely Greek concept that would later only grow in importance in Christian philosophyOh? Because last I checked God knew of Christ, and all men, before he was formed in the womb. There is no conflict.
>>18095355>Hellenic, as in belonging to or originating among the Hellenes, the endonym used by people we call Greeks? >Not even a little bit. What language was the Septuagint originally written in?
>>18095712All of the letters, and *most* of the words are Koine Greek.However, there are words *transliterated* from Aramaic and ancient Hebrew into Greek letters included therein, where no mere translation was sufficient to capture their meaning.You should read the LXX, you'll find these examples critical to linguistic research and understanding of the period.Transliterations of the same kind are found in the new testament, denoting the inheritance of that corpus.
>>18095707Philo got it from Xenophanes and the later Greek Platonists. Xenophanes lived 600 years before Philo. Philo's theology was very syncretic, and he lived among more Greeks than Jews in Alexandria. He was nothing at all like a 'normal Jewish theologian', the Temple priests would have considered Philo's syncreticism and effort to meet Platonism in the middle to be either silly or misguided. Aristotle himself is often seen as an example of the highly learned and spiritual gaining an understanding of God as a prelude to Christ's appearance. Plato is similar, which is why Augustine relies on his metaphysics without feeling like he's engaging in self-contradiction. Aquinas relies on both Plato and Aristotle almost totally when it comes to his metaphysics and makes no reference to Jewish theologians. The preoccupation that high level Catholic philosophy has with the concepts of 'potential' and 'becoming' is directly a product of this Platonic and Aristotelian theology. Regarding God's anthropomorphizations, this is one of the great inner conflicts within Christianity. Scholastic theologians very commonly reject the idea of God as a 'super human', and instead focus on the idea of God as a force of thought and logos. This is a product of the Hellenistic foundations for their metaphysics. That God is basically an alien force that can't be described with any words that reflect humanity (unchanging, wholly actualized, etc.)Laymen on the other hand are far more comfortable with God as a 'super human'. This is a contradiction that is basically unnecessary to address as both groups rarely interact.
>>18095794>Philo got it from Xenophanes and the later Greek Platonists. Xenophanes lived 600 years before Philo.Choose one. 600 years is a long time.>he lived among more Greeks than Jews in AlexandriaJosephus reports a million Jews lived in the Jewish quarter of Alexandria.So it's likely that the family Philo belonged to, who dedicated so much money to Herod's renovation of the Temple, lived predominantly among fellow Jews in their section of that city.Which it must be said, is why Philo himself was selected as a representative of the Jews to approach Caligula for to entreat him for to remove his abomination of pretended godhood from the Temple. Which event is indeed a matter of ancient record.>preoccupation that high level Catholic philosophy has with the concepts of 'potential' and 'becoming' is directly a product of this Platonic and Aristotelian theologysauce>Regarding God's anthropomorphizations, this is one of the great inner conflicts within Christianity.It's not a conflict. Those who would impugn division would say so, but it's not a matter of scriptural import.>Scholastic theologians very commonly reject the idea of God as a 'super human', and instead focus on the idea of God as a force of thought and logos. Again, there is no conflict.Man is endowed with reason, being made in the image of God. And not only reason, reason having natural limits, but supernatural apprehension of the ineffable.
>>18095038Not only is Christianity very Hellenized the Judaism that preceded the birth of Christ was as well. The Greeks did their best to erase Jewish identity and assimilate them. They were partially successful. The idea of hell for instance is a Greek concept that didn’t even exist in the Jewish faith before hellenization.
>>18095581You could make the argument as so many have that Plato was a proto Christian. There’s a reason some churches have declared him to be a pre Christian saint
>>18095490>Greek wisdom is for fools.Spoiled alert: Yes.
>>18095910>spoiledI meant to say "spoiler". FUCK. I didn't proofread this.>>18095896Which ones? I mean, if it's true that's reasonable. Plato was very intelligent, and Christianity is the religion of geniuses. If you were a genius you would, by pure reason, automatically know the Christian religion is true even if you've never heard of it.
>>18095916The Eastern Orthodox Church holds him in a very high regard though I don’t know if he’s ever been officially designated as one. His theory of the forms can be seen as an argument for monotheism. “The one” as he calls it.
>>18095916
>>18095836There's no need to choose. The Greek pseudo-monotheistic tradition dates from the 600s BC or earlier, and lasted until the 300s AD, at least. If not longer. It was an extremely durable and long-lasting system of theology that directly rewrote the Jewish splinter cell of Christianity, into a Hellenized theology. Philo was very Hellenized. Him being chosen as a representative to treat with the legendarily capricious Caligula is demonstrative of that. You're not going to grab someone that is likely to offend the Emperor with their provincial Jewish customs, when that Emperor has a penchant for bloodshed. His theology is obviously Hellenized as well. His nouns and verbs are pure Plato. >sauceRead any of Aquinas's commentaries on Aristotle. They're not written in a way that I can quote from easily, but the writing is a remarkably easy read, at least in English translation. I would say that fundamentally different views on who or what God is are fairly important. At least when discussing the intellectual history of a religion. If the clergy argue about one type of God amongst themselves, and the laymen have another, that is at least worthy of investigation. God as a force of Logos precludes the anthropomorphization common in the idea that man is made in the image of his God. Human reason is not an image of divine reason, they're too categorically different. Human reason isn't a reflection of the ideal form of divine cognition, it is too insignificant and structurally different compared to true omniscience.
>>18095355yeah, I'm sure all of the similarities are just coincidences kek
>>18095038>HellenicIts right there in the geneology.Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli
>>18095046>judaismJudas thaddeus, not judas iscariot.I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
>>18095038I'm reading Timaeus right now, and honestly Plato's creation story sounds a lot like the so called "preistly" creation account in Genesis, even if his discription is a lot grander and detailed.
best thread on /his/ right now
>>18095702I see Jews use this as a way to discredit Paul. That there was no way he was a Pharisee because he wrote in Greek. Seems pretty flimsy.
>>18097018It's more telling that his scripture quotations are dependent on the Septuagint which are variant from the hebrew. Did diaspora pharisees exist who did their pharisee thing with the greek translations? Idk if theres evidence of that but i dont see why not, the jews in alexandira and syria and wherever probably were some hellenized variants of the schools in judea
>>18095042Based.
>>18095934Don't know if it's truly canon but it's pretty widespread to believe Plato followed Jesus out of hades in the harrowing of hell. Also Plato's allegory of the cave has been interpreted as prophetic of Jesus' crucifixion
>>18097049I never thought of that before. Interesting
>>18095038>>18095939I always thought it was wonderful how well this meshes with Hindu beliefs >>18095038Majority HellenicImage of Yahweh- stolen from ZeusEaster- knock off Dionysia Christmas- literally just rebranded Sol Invictus with a Yule tree from the AsatruPilate questioning Jesus-stolen from the Bacchae playJesus- knock off Dionysus, no literally tell me if this sounds familiar? Son of a god and a mortal woman, will replace his father unlocking a new level of peace on earth and a new after life, associated with wine, spring, death, rebirth, the afterlifeSatan/Devil-knock off Prometheus but with the stolen image of Pan and Dionysus (whats up with Christians making good Gods evil)Witches sabbath- literally just a bacchanalia Eucharist- literally just a mix of mystery cult rituals Hell- literally rebranded tartarusHeaven- knock off Elysium Trinitarianism and neoplatonism- literally just knock off classical polytheism So yeah why dont Christians drop the bullshit and just go for the source? Dionysian Hellenism is the way, drop Jesus of Nazareth as a savior and start worshipping Dionysus >>18095794Philo seething about trans priestesses 2k years ago honestly makes my day every time I read it. Someday I'm gonna get a good Ben Shapiro emulator and type it all out because I hear his voice every time I read it.
>>18095038Its an desert african tribal religion
>>18099876>Jesus- knock off Dionysus, no literally tell me if this sounds familiar? Son of a god and a mortal woman, will replace his father unlocking a new level of peace on earth and a new after life, associated with wine, spring, death, rebirth, the afterlifethis is so true, it's so obvious that the concept of Christian salvation was borrowed from the Dionysians
100%> son of a god (Dionysus, Heracles, etc.)> virgin mother> logos etc borrowed heavily from Greek philosophy> identification with the grapevine> the story of Mary's escape from Herod - the escape of Rhea with Zeus, or Cronus, Isis with Horus> the Revelation of John. He reworks the myth of Leto's escape with Apollo from Typhon
>>18095040>>1809504267%https://youtu.be/PVN_l-PFRPE
>>18095794>That God is basically an alien force that can't be described with any words that reflect humanity (unchanging, wholly actualized, etc.)>create in our image and likeness>literally walks in Genesis>literally passes by Moses and he sees his back (glowing because of the mellamu)>literally sits in the temple shrouded in fog and enjoys the burnt offeringsI'm just tired of this.By the way, Logos and the like don't answer anything! It's just sophistry.Obviously, the seed was miraculously implanted in Mary (using illusion. Remember the conception of Cuchulainn. They know how to create illusions), and Jesus is a hybrid (like all demigods).
The entire history of Judaism in the Greco Roman period makes more sense when you look at it from the perspective of a struggle for Jewish identity in the midst of overwhelming pressure to assimilate into a western way of life. Within Judaism there was a deep divide between those who wanted to westernize and those who wanted a more traditional Jewish way of life. Even Jesus’s render unto Caesar comment can be looked at this way. He’s not just talking about taxes he’s telling his followers to embrace the modern Greco Roman world while holding onto their faith in the Jewish god. He’s a reformer. It really explains WHY Christianity emerged when it did.
>>18099876>>18101066>>18101078was sin also a Greek concept? it seems like something closer to the Judaic beliefs about the nature of man
>>18095748>>18095355cope.
>>18095038Judaism itself was already Hellenic.
>>18101423This why jews rejected himThey felt like he was a fake messiah only leading them to assimilation and extinction when the only thing they wanted was revenge on the romans
>>18095038Whoever set the bases for Christianity was well versed in Hellenistic philosophy/tradition>The nigga going out of the cave and going back to tell everyone the truth only to face ridicule and violence in the cave alegory>"They will say that our just man will be scourged, racked, bound—will have his eyes burnt out; and, at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled..." in The Republic>Socrates being judged and sentenced to death for his teachings and refusing to be bailed out by his students, same as JesusI'm sure you could draw more parallels with the prime mover of Aristotle and other presocratics but you get the idea
>>18101084It is one of those funny aspects, when you get into high level old Catholic and Orthodox scholasticism about God, and then compare that to just reading the Old Testament talking about God. Like its obvious that ancient Jews actually believed that God was a man in the sky who was superhuman in every way, but fundamentally could be conceptualized as a person. But then you start getting into the weeds of high level dogma and you're looking at a God that exists as a cosmic force that is defined more around concepts of 'potential' and cause and effect, than as a literary figure.
