Rank ‘em
>>18095859Those are not Caudillos, dummy (well they are, but they are more special). They are Libertadores, and not even a complete list of them. But I'll bite.Bolivar = Francia = Artigas > San Martín (Belgrano was better) > Morazán > Sucre = O'higgins = L'ouverture > Iturbide.
>Every single one of them (except for the Haitian guy) was of Spanish/European descent >Not a single one is indigenous/mestizo Can someone explain why?
>>18095884The hispanic revolutions and wars of independence were largely a criollo vs peninsular affair. Basically, the local-born elites resented that the caste system denied them any real political power and placed it in the hands of spanish born officers, despite the fact that they were whites. The leaders of the movement were, for the most part, white and criollo precisely because they were the ones with the education, the money and the grievances to start a revolution, kind of like how the leaders of the French revolution were mostly bourgeois or lower nobility, not peasants. For the lower classes (poor whites, castizos, mestizos, mulattos, indios and blacks), it made little difference if the rich white elites ruling over them were born in Madrid, Mexico City, Lima, Caracas or Buenos Aires.
>>18095884This list is highly selective. While I doubt it was intentional, neglecting Morelos, or Francia does make it seem more homogenous than it was.But the reason is that the officer corps/Educated classes in colonial america before the wars of independence were almost exclusively populated by creoles. Miranda was of uncertain ethnic provenance iirc.
>>18095985Though iirc the other guy is minimizing the participation of the other races too much. Any review of lesser known generals from the period will give you a litany of mestizos and a rare few Indians and Negroes (Haiti aside).
>>18095859O'Higgens at number one because he's Irish.
>>18095883>Those are not Caudillos, dummy (well they are, but they are more special). They are Libertadores,Glorified warlords
>>18096037That is a very unfair assesment. They were statesmen. Caudillo means, iirc, 'little head'. And roughly signifies a commander. Franco was a Caudillo, famously. It can be argued Caudillismo is a coherent system of government, rather than the aberration Big Libtard (Hispanic branch) ceaselessly says it is.
>>18096094Most of them just heard that across the ocean some Corsican manlet was kicking everyone’s ass and fancied himself as the modern Julius Caesar so they wanted to follow up on it. The instability of the Spanish Empire gave them the perfect opportunity for it.Some of them went so far with the larp that they proclaimed themselves emperors (Iturbide)
>>18095884Because this list is dogshit and the nigger OP didn't include Tupac Katari or Tupac Amaru
>>18096035only his grandfather was irish
I cannot consider San Martin a caudillo, he was too much of a good guy to be one. Pic related Juan Manuel de Rosas can't be considered the most important caudillo in Argentine history: >born from a rich family, retain a great deal of political power enough to be named representative of the confederation several times>had a policy of economical proteccionism against french and british merchants>used his influence among the lower classes to field an army purely based on clientelism between the gauchos and the african population>he used the military campaigns against the Indio to gather political influence when not in power>the Mazorca (secret police) enforced his own flavor of Federalism on Buenos Aires
>>18095859Artigas and Morazan - Federalist chadsSan Martin and Louverture - Native monarchic sigmaBolivar, Sucre, Iturbide - European monarchic beta cucksO'Higgins - literally a tranny
>>18096127>Corsican manlet was kicking everyone’s ass and fancied himself as the modern Julius Caesar so they wanted to follow up on itAnon youre retarded. Spanish America had been dealing with revolts among local Spanish governors since the various reforms chipping away at their established power systems like encomienda the 17th-18th century. Napoleon was just giving them an out.
>>18096639All traitors and one subhumans
>>18095859>SucreHe was a Gran Colombian (Venezuelan) who ruled over Peru after Bolívar, who himself had taken power after San Martín left Peru. Sucre also became president of Bolivia.Another caudillo, Andrés de Santa Cruz y Calahumana, known as the "Caudillo of the Andes," was "Bolivian" by birth. His father was Peruvian, and his mother Bolivian. He led both countries simultaneously during the Peru-Bolivian Confederation. Earlier, he had become president of Peru, and later, in 1829, he became president of Bolivia, the year after Sucre stepped down (1828).Technically, Santa Cruz had been elected president in 1828, but he did not assume office at that time. In the meantime, a series of caudillos seized power during a period of crisis, partly triggered by Agustín Gamarra’s invasion of Bolivia.In colonial times, Santa Cruz was heir to an Aymara chieftainship through his mother.
>>18096817who betrayed who first?https://europeanroyalhistory.wordpress.com/2021/05/04/may-4-1814-king-fernando-vii-of-spain-abolishes-the-constitution/
>>18096843>a series of caudillos seized power during a period of crisis, partly triggered by Agustín Gamarra’s invasion of BoliviaAgustín Gamarra was a Peruvian caudillo and president, born in Cusco. His mother was an indian woman who came from modest, not noble, origins (unlike Santa Cruz's). He was raised by her and grew up speaking Quechua, as his father died when he was very young.He invaded Bolivia on two occasions, attempting to annex it. Because, unlike Santa Cruz, he did not want a confederation of two states but a single unified nation. He later fought in the war against the Peru-Bolivian Confederation shortly after Santa Cruz established it.Gamarra died in 1841 during his second attempt to seize Bolivia. He had also previously fought against Gran Colombia.
>>18096877>two statesWell of 3, because Santa Cruz divided Peru into 2 during the conferation, Gamarra took part in the insubordination of the North Peruvian State, along with Orbegoso, who, as its president, separated it from the Confederation.
>>18095884Other that these two>>18096843>>18096877Santa Cruz and Gamarra, the main ones in their respective countries, there were many other indigenous/mestizo caudillos in that area. But I think it was pretty rare elsewhere in South America.I bet it isn’t the case for some Central American countries, though
These two were based. They brought economic prosperity and modernization to their respective shithole countries. Too bad the people that came after them fucked it all up.
>>18095859The fuck kinda name is Iturbide?
>>18097031basque I believe, it's from north spain at the very least
Huey Long #1
>>18095859>we're white too; the thread
>>18096986Dominican Republic ain't doing THAT bad though for being an half-an-island nation bordered next to Haiti
>>18097565sorry you haplogroup thread got killed
If the Bourbons had set up a capitol city in the Americas like in Brazil, would it have imploded so much as it did? or was old Spanish prestige the only thing holding it all together?
>>18097619maybe, before settling down for a republican system, the popular support was for a constitutional monarchy, with either an inca king, a bourbon king from the court of Sao Paulo and even the future king of France Louis Philippe. The planned capital would have been Lima, the main reason why the proposition didn't last was because the local elite in Buenos Aires which were overseeing the assembly didn't wanted to surrender their power to the oligarchy in Alto Peru
>>18097619After the successful American Independence, a Spanish noble in the court of Charles III proposed dividing Spanish America into kingdoms, each with its own Bourbon monarch, similar to the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Charles III rejected the idea and the dice was cast.
>>18095859Louverture is genuinely top tier, all of the good qualities were sucked out of the entire Hatitan nigger race before and after and placed in that one man, there wasn't enough to make a second actual human unfortunately.
>>18098170I mean he was too trusting, he genuinely thought the french wanted to negotiate.
>>18095859Not even close.
>>18097619Probably not. But it would have never happened.
>>18096959Many of the lesser commanders were of humble birth. But for obvious reasons the big ones tended to be creoles.Though Iturbide being considered Mexico's Libertador is very tendentious. Considering he spent most of the war as a loyalist officer. Putting Vicente Guerrero in would have been more honest considering he was fighting since 1810 without stopping.
>>18098446Smells of internet monarchism, anyway.
>>18095883Artigas was honestly the GOAT in that he actually managed to convince everyone that Orientales were a whole separate thing from Argentinians despite having the exact same culture, accent, ethnic composition and way of living.
>>18098493Wtf he never wanted independent Uruguay, he went to breed kuruminhas in Paraguay and never returned.
>>18095859All of them are low iq spics who fell for the Free Mason meme and ruined their respective countries>>18095928>For the lower classes (poor whites, castizos, mestizos, mulattos, indios and blacks), it made little difference if the rich white elites ruling over them were born in Madrid, Mexico City, Lima, Caracas or Buenos Aires.Not true the instability created by the revolutionaries cause mass sufferings. The revolutions devolves into infighting and spiral out of control quickly and Latin American would not recover, the power vacumm was immense and none of the original revolutionaries remain in power. Also, the replacement of the educated continental elites and the pseudo-educated latinfundia based elites brought social and economic changes as the lower classes had to accommodate huge influx of slaves and the elites basically sold off the country's stability in order the grow cash crops for exports
>>18098493Artigas was a federalist, he supported the Provincias Unidas' cause, unlike the city of Montevideo which was a rival of Buenos Aires
>>18098608>whitesthere are no whites in latin america, only brown moor rapebabies, indios and blacks
>>18098493Uruguay was generated from the Aether inside an office within the City of London. The country is, quite literally, just the Republic East of the Uruguay. Literally no one believes they are a different nation. They are, however, a country. And nearly all shared sense of nationhood within Latin American states is a top down imposition from the national governments anyway.Its conforting, really.
>>18099098comforting*But I'm not trying to minimize Artigas. He is still Karaí Guazú, a father of nations. Question for any lurking Latin Americans: Isn't it strange that most of the important figures from independence died miserable or otherwise strife-filled deaths
>>18099143San Martin got it pretty right, he moved to France and became tutor to the sons of one of the most riches men in Europe at the time. Revolutionary leaders offered him to lead armies during the european revolutions there but he refused for being too old. But yeah, San Martín refused to return to Argentina to avoid being used as a political tool during the civil wars, I think him like Bolivar thought that Latin America was ruined without a clear centralized government, either a strong republic or a legitimate monarchy. Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy
for me is Martín Miguel de Güemes, still holding the north frontier against the royalists
>>18098730They’re not the majority, but of fucking course there are whites here. I live in a poor part of Brazil that barely received any immigration and I still see lots of them everyday, probably would see even more if I went to the south, Argentina or Uruguay.
>>18100510Tbh you can see them even in Mexico where I live, in the cities as migrants or in small towns just there. The strange thing is that they really aren't any better than the regular spics. Sometimes they're worse.And imo, having been to Argentina a lot. I feel like if Argentina is 'White' being White is massively overrated.>>18099880I'm reading a very interesting article with the thesis that Güemes was just a puppet of the families with double surnames that was propped up to prevent royalist repraisals. Uses a lot of genealogical data, very interesting.
>>18097565>p-p-please seethe about race like I doNope. Get a job, girlfriend, and a gym membership. Then stop shitting up my board. In that order.
>>18101164Granted the 'Big family puppet' Talking point appears with basically every dictator and is often a communist propaganda talking point.
>>18095859BVLIVVR, V’HVGGVNS, and VTVRBVDE are the only respectable CAPITELLVM here. The rest may be great people, but the most important thing about being a Caudillo before your actions can even be judged is your notoriety. I’m curious about the other ones, specifically the Argentine.>L’OuvertureKek
>louverture Bro thinks hes on the team *crying emoji*
>>18101466>Ranking some nobody O'higgins over the actual guy who liberated Chile, San Martín.>Implying Iturbide is notorious for anything other than declaring himself King and then dying.Yeah, ok. How's the weather in Santiago? Btw, Mexican coverage of independence barely even mentions Iturbide. He only really appears when it's impossible not to mention it.
>>18101478
>>18101478Should be Dessalines, of course.
>>18101486I’m not Chilean. If you think there’s someone more interesting then give me info on them. I’m not even from Latin America
>>18101486This is, to be fair, just kind of cope because he the side that held him up lost all the relevant civil wars. Still, Iturbide above San Martín is a joke. And in Mexico Hidalgo is more famous. Though, personally, of the Big 3 Morelos was the most worthy.
>>18101493Well for one San Martín was known as the 'Sword Saint', he had in his entourage a monk that made cannons, he led the largest military crossing of the andes and led the reconquest of Chile. O'higgins was also there, to be fair. But why O'higgins, specifically?
>>18101509This is very interesting, I would like to look into him further. I said O’Higgins purely off of his achievement of international notoriety, you see, I’m not from any country that could be considered in any way Hispanic or Latin, so nobody here, even those interested in history, has heard of San Martin, but for whatever reason we know of O’Higgins despite him being a relatively irrelevant Chilean guy
>>18101516Are you Irish? English?
>>18098608Main issue is, by the point of the independence wars there wasn't much Spain could bring for LATAM, and Spain itself would not become a developed country until mid Cold War, although I will grant you the end of Spaniard domain fucked over the native population as criollos dismantled the native nobility which had supported spanish power within the continent.The other anon is right on caudillismo being something relatively normal, at least in the global south, due their graography and weather factors tend to cluster around extended families controlled by patriarchs and can be lazier than euro nordics as they won't freeze to death, in these places militaries always become the most powerful national institutions, in LATAM more so as the independence wars created hundreds of issues with the borders of the new countries, each neo-national elite tried to take as much territory as possible to protect their own core cities.People claim there aren't wars in LATAM, it's not due geography but because they already went for the same process Africa has been going after WW2 and Esstern Europe after the fall of the Soviets, decades of border wars until frontier consolidation under some hegemonic power or coalition of powers and economic interdependence stops the skirmishes.
>>18099143As I point out in my previous post, extended family clusters with a tendency for colectivism, but unlike Asia you got the caveat of Catholic Church hammering individual rights in the population, in LATAM your father and mother/siblings/children or partner going alongside you to complain or parlay about something is far feom unusual, when you understand LATAM population is not really lone individuals as it happens in liberal US, but clans(mafias) for privileges, under this social reality a truly powerful totalitarian government is impossible, this is the real reason why we are incapable to create the sort of institutional trust you see in anglos, make a law and some clan will try to find the way to cheat on it, and if not it will do its ulmost to tear it apart.This on the one hand stunts our capability for advanced social institutions, on the other hand this means a lack of real regulation which allows for a lot family enterprise, I know this will make a lot of people seethe but we have reach the stage where a latino small merchant may have more equivalent wealth (his own apartment/house and car, private healthcare, sending his children to college) than a western white collar cosmopolis citizen stuck with a rent partner scrapping against an ever more brutal job market, let alone many working class people.A peruvian emolientero has a better (and fsr longer) life than a russian mobik.
