>>18102515
>Caring about some random Abrahamic dead feith

>nooooo you just have to let the king choose your bishop for you, take your tithe as taxes, and seize church property

bootlicker
Gregorian reform was based
do it again, take back everything that was stolen by modernity

ALL the church property stolen by apostate governments from the 16th century through the 19th century WILL be returned to the rightful apostolic owner AS IS.

Tax exempt status WILL be respected IN ALL cases.
The so called "church tax" WILL be repealed. In NO CASE does the state have the right to levy additional taxes on it's citizens merely for belonging to a religious body.
The profane state churches WILL be dissolved and their assets reincorporated.

The French 5th Republic has been CRIMINALLY negligent in its charge over historically CATHOLIC cathedrals.
YEARLY more are burnt in ACTS of a terroristic and hateful nature, and the state does NOTHING.
They are either DELIBERATELY adding and abetting these acts of desecration, OR they are woefully INCOMPETENT as so-called "custodians".

The burning of NOTRE DAME should have been the final straw.
They WILL SURRENDER ALL rights and ownership over the ecclesiastical endowment and estate to the CHURCH, make FULL RESTITUTION and admit SOLE CULPABILITY for this disaster.
This highly ILLEGAL state of affairs must END.

>>18102758
>>18102790
Meds right now

>>18102619
yeah but the Eastern Roman model worked well enough with a patriarch kept in check by the Emperor (also considered equal of the Apostles)
The Humiliation of Canossa was a mistake, they should have kept the Ottonian model

>>18102790
I'm with you in spirit but we kinda need an army to enforce Church rights

>>18102794
>Eastern Roman model worked well enough
>Emperor (also considered equal of the Apostles)
lmao
caesaropapist heretics aren't worth the time even thinking about
they will never admit their fault

Jesus never gave apostolic authority to any government official, and insofar as any state makes pretense to interfere with the affairs of the church it constitutes a gross violation.

It would have been impossible for St Ambrose to excommunicate Emperor Theodosius if that secular magnate were superior to him in religious authority.
In fact, Ambrose resisted his attempt to seize church property in his diocese. Which went as far as setting up Imperial standards around his church building and stationing soldiers to enforce his claim (these soldiers would be convinced by Ambrose himself to abandon that madness).

>inb4 muh Constantine
Constantine did not pretend to have authority over the decision of Council, did not issue any edicts, vote, or pretend to ordain bishops.

Unlike the snake and pretended "saint" Justinian, who saw it as his right to regulate ordinations.
The sacraments have never been subject to temporal authority, despite many attempts to reduce them.

>>18102799
Not really.
Normally, the state is supposed to guarantee protection of property rights for various people living within their domain regardless of whether or not they belong to a religious organization. That's one of their duties.

But even if that were unfortunately so a problem, the mustering and arming of laity by the clergy to protect sanctuaries and domiciles on church land certainly does has precedent.

>>18102831
the state is wilfully neglectful of Church property at best, and openly hostile to the Church in most cases. An army is absolutely needed, because who is watching the watchers? You may say God and you'd be right, but God gives good men the tools to defend themselves and their families with. As it stands, there are not a lot of good men who see the Church as their family worth protecting. A mercenary army would be needed to get things started, but that comes with its own set of problems.

>>18102826
Well, by that line of reasoning, Jesus never gave authority to the Church to act like a state
Guess what happened?
>Constantine
basically told the bishops to wrap it up cause he had more aqueducts to build
>Justinian
seethe about him all you want. He's one of the few who understood power politics and was not blinded by fake auras of sanctity.

>>18102849
>Jesus never gave authority to the Church to act like a state
Not so.
The binding and loosing authority is a legalistic one. The keys given to Peter are identified with the office of steward in the Davidic kingdom, who was charged with the keeping and arbitration of the household of the king in his absence.

There is a clearly defined hierarchical system of church governance that exists totally independent of temporal authorities, and is supranational (not being restricted or divided in jurisdiction to one or several nations or states and under the supervision of said governments, but being truly universal in scope).

>>18102840
The church has never been friendly with mercenaries, except maybe the Swiss guard but that's a special case.

Mercenaries fight only for money, which is evil. They were frequently employed by brigand aristocrats to plunder religious endowments, raze the lands of rivals, and butcher noncombatants.
They were effectively considered excommunicated.

Knights at least have a duty and fealty.
Militias raised from the laity have been utilized historically to drive out these murderous bands of mercenaries.

>>18102885
If you want power to bind and loose you cannot exist outside of a civil governance framework.
The Church has two choices, work with the state or become the state
Both have their own pitfalls.
Historically the Church tried to keep separate from layman activities but humans are humans. Maybe in the City of God we'll have a perfect harmonious society where the Church-State tug of war does not exist.
It is not the case in human affairs, as the past 2000 years have demonstrated

>>18102899
>you cannot exist outside of a civil governance framework
Not civil. Religious.
Big difference.
There are privileges and duties that go along with participation in or belonging to civil (read secular) governments, and there are likewise duties and privileges associated with the ecclesiastical and spiritual dominion. Which kingdom is not of this world, but of heaven.
These two are separate spheres, though the spiritual sphere is as superior to the temporal as the sun is to the moon.

>become the state
They already have their own law code, the canons. Always have.
And the means for it's establishment are outlined in scripture, which bears witness to this government.
They do not require the cooperation of profane authorities in it's upkeep, because the sacraments are not subject to the whims of despots.

Render into Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.