Were crusades a mistake?
>>18104249what’s wrong with french people attacking gayreeks
The mistake was abrahamic religions in the first place
>>18104249Well, they ultimately failed, didn’t they? All that blood was spilled for naught.>>18104250It’s generally considered poor form to go into foreign lands and kill people you have never met and who have done you no wrong because YOU fucked up and ran up a debt.
>>18104249>muh heckin' byzantinerinosDuplicitous, scheming Greeks had it coming.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins>Although precise numbers are unavailable, the bulk of the Latin community, estimated at 60,000 at the time by Eustathius of Thessalonica,[2] was wiped out or forced to flee. The Genoese and Pisan communities especially were devastated, and some 4,000 survivors were sold as slaves to the Turkish Sultanate of Rum.
>>18104260>because YOU fucked up and ran up a debt.But murdering foreigners because your native merchants don't make high enough profit margins is fine?>>18104263
>>18104260cry me a river i feel more bad for the people who died in the wars of capetian expansion
>>18104260you can make this same argument for literally any war in history including every one outside of the levant (which is now jewish so i guess those muslims died for no reason) also spain was reconquered
>>18104269No? Did I say it was? But to argue that it was some kind of punitive expedition for a butchery 20 years past is a bit of a stretch, don’t you think?They weren’t fighting to haul off the perpetrators to be judged for crimes committed, they were fighting for lucre.>>18104272You should feel bad about those guys, too!>>18104281Yeah, I don’t know if you know this, but war usually sucks ass in a moral sense. I do make this same argument for literally any war in history. Killing people and taking their shit is bad, actually. Even if a cool dude with a fancy hat says it’s fine. Don’t do it!
>>18104299>warfare is le bad because the universe will eventually suffer heat death, what do your victories mean then huh chud?It means for as long as we are here we don’t have to put up with insufferable homos like you
>>18104299you'd be surprised at how enthusiastic people were for warfare before they got sufficiently technologically advanced and exhausted in the world wars, read primary sources
>>18104304I was thinking about it more in a moral sense than a ‘what is le point’ sense. I’m concerned about what’s right to do, not the passing of time. It’s not really useful to just lay down and collapse in ennui.Killing people is generally a monstrous thing to do! There are good reasons to defend yourself, certainly. To swing back around to the crusaders for a second - Catholic theologians had been toiling for centuries about what does and doesn’t constitute a just war, and while I’m not exactly the biggest expert on the subject, I’m pretty sure sacking a city because your puppet claimant couldn’t fork over a sufficiently high paycheck isn’t exactly something that counts as ‘just’ in that framework. Which is sort of a big deal for a crusade to fail to live up to, no?>>18104319I do know this! As far as I know, persistent low-intensity conflict was basically the default for the human condition for… ever?
>>18104332the crusades the popes declared against other catholic rulers are much more scandalous, or even the albigensian crusade on account of how many catholics were slaughtered in the crossfire - and regarding the other point the difference between warrior aristocrats trained since the age of 5 for the purpose of gloriously killing other human beings in battle vs modern post-universal suffrage armies of conscripts being funneled into cannon fodder is basically a matter of night and day
Bitch ass Byzantines should have paid what they owe
>>18104260>Well, they ultimately failed, didn’t theyeastern europe gainsiberian peninsula gainstrade and economy gainsall which lasted until todaymentioned trade kick-started the renaissance
>>18104354technically you could be like "oh yeah the northern crusades failed because of the protestant reformation and ww2!" but... this is why consequentialism is dumb also renaissance isn't a useful term outside of the movement that emerged from 14th century italian classicalism (which isn't to say that anybody there ever stopped being obsessed with the ancient greeks and romans)
>>18104359although eh... granted lithuania is catholic and so is that prussian chunk of poland that stalin gave them
>>18104359sure, I get youI mean was weakening constantinople through the crusades worth it because ottoman rule of the region put pressure on portugal and spain to sail and conquer other continents?or is it just flow of history and fuck the morality
>>18104369i think the turks would've just conquered the greeks earlier if the westerners never launched the crusades btw they clearly don't have a very good track record going on
>>18104250>what’s wrong with french people attacking gayreeksthey stopped being gay after converting to Christianity
>>18104249he who lives by the sword dies by the sword
>>18104249IV Crusade has to be one of the biggest blunders in historyOtherwise, not really. Plently of troublesome second sons of younger brothers got to spend their energies in the Holy Land, carving domains for themselves, or dying in the process, which was overall a net gain for France and the Normans
>>18104260>kill people you have never met and who have done you no wrong because YOU fucked up and ran up a debt.You see, the Byzantines DESERVED it though. The sack of Constantinople was completely their fault.
