Debate all things Mormonism, including the calling of Joseph Smith, the truth claims of the successor churches, as well as the divine inspiration of the Book of Mormon, and what it could mean for our times.
>>18114662The fact "seer stones" were genuinely a part of Joseph Smith's whole prophecy shtick should tell anyone with an IQ above room temperature he was full of shit.
>>18114677
>>18114662mormonism cult tldr: joseph smith added at the end of genesis that he predicts himself as a prophet in the mormon bible, thats all u need to know about the conman, lmao.
>>18114962That part is of such a high literary quality, as are all of the changes in the Inspired version, that it proves Joseph Smith is true.
>>18114990Cognitive dissonance.
>>18114990>Did you know that Genesis prophesied of me?>let me show you in my Joseph Smith(tm) Bible
>>18114662I've seen you post and think you're a nice guy. Do you think there's anything someone could say to you to convince you Joseph Smith was a false prophet? Any amount of evidence?
>>18115020Behold, verily there cometh a poster on the board of history, witheth theth knowledge of goodeth and evileth.
>>18115050thus and thus wherefore it came to pass exceedingly.
>>18114990Clearly you never read somethings of high literary quality to say that the book of mormom is such.
>>18115048No, but I don't want to be confused with someone who won't hear it.
>>18115219Okay, so if there's no amount of evidence that could convince you Joseph Smith is a false prophet, how are you someone who will "hear out the evidence"? You'll just dismiss any arguments I bring so what's even the point of the thread?
>>18115229Someone who won't hear it holds to a faith without evidence of their own; I am not that type, and actually want to encourage people like that to "hear out the evidence", which I want to do anyway, hence the thread in part.
>>18115239Okay, but you just said that no amount of evidence could convince you that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. So what's the point in giving you evidence?
>>18115268If your goal is only to refute me to myself, I tell you what is accurate, I don't think you'll be able to. I am more interested anyway in seeing how the argument would play out, and what different people's opinions might be.
>>18115291JJ Smith was a con artist PERHAPS high on his own supply, who used his influence over retards to get a bunch of wives including some who already had living husbands and some teenage brides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
>>18115342>PERHAPS high on his own supplyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=535Zy_rf4NU
>>18115291There's no point in challenging someone's belief if they aren't willing to change it under any circumstances. The Book of Abraham is obviously falsified. It was an Egyptian funerary text (modern Egyptologists have translated it) and had nothing to do with Abraham. But Joseph Smith claims he translated it word for word from the papyri. Obviously, he was just making it up.Joseph Smith married 20+ women, some of whom were already married and one of whom were 14. Seems like a bit of a self-serving revelation, no? Almost Muhammad-like?Your theology is also so heretical to the point it's difficult to say whether Mormons are even Christians. You say you are monotheists, but in reality you believe the Godhead is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that they are distinct beings with distinct essences, wills, and persons, but that they "just work so well together" they may as well be one person. Objectively speaking, that's tritheism, not monotheism.
>>18115347>heresyReal heresy is contending against believers that what they believe cannot be, because of some imposition of man. Compare Arius: it doesn't matter if someone doesn't comprehend the scriptures correctly, but if someone tries to impose Arianism on the church, that is heresy, and must be expunged.
>>18115347>obviously falsifiedJudge not by appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
>>18115348Sorry, maybe I wasn't specific enough in my language. You technically have to be a Catholic to be a heretic. In reality, Mormons hold heretical positions. In fact, I'd argue Mormon theology has a more heretical position than even non-Trinitarians like JWs and Oneness Pentecostals. At least they are actually monotheists. Mormons are tritheists, so I'm not really sure if it's true they're Christians who hold very heretical positions or if they're just a separate religion.
>>18115352Yes, I am judging by righteous judgement. It's very simple, I'll lay out the argument.P1: Joseph Smith claimed to directly translate the papyri into the book of AbrahamP2: The papyri, having been translated by modern Egyptologists who actually understand hieroglyphics, do not translate to the book of AbrahamC1: Joseph Smith was lying when he said he produced the Book of Abraham by translating directly from the papyriC2: Joseph Smith was a false prophetHow do you refute this?
>>18115346The two likely scenarios in my mind is either he knew he was fooling people for power and influence OR he actually was psychotic and believed the nonsense he was peddling. Either way he got a lot of pussy so mad props to the man for that. Not so much for starting a heretical movement that drains bank accounts to build Masonic ritual "temples".>but Mormons are nice white peopleYeah until you leave Mormonism, then they shun. They're nice to you to convert you, like a man who is nice to a woman only because he wants sex.
>>18115353But your opinions have no bearing on the truth and are easily refuted already.>>18115357P2 is based on nothing>>18115366>until you leave Mormonism, then they shun.Fair point against organized religions generally.
>>18115368>rosetta stone denialismThis is where you are at
>>18115374>appeal to authority
>>18115368Yeah, they're not my opinions, the Catholic Church defines doctrine. Not me. I didn't come up with the Trinity.Have you even looked at the original papyri??? They have found tons of documents that are virtually identical. Do you not believe me? "Nuh uh" isn't an argument
>>18115382>the Catholic Church defines doctrineNot at variance with scripture though; and, if Joseph Smith's translations and revelations and narrations can be faithfully derived from previous scripture, then it cannot be false.
>>18115382>>18115368Like dude, this is from your own church's website. They admit that the papyri are just standard funerary documents. Your own church admits it! How can you deny P2 then?"The discovery of the papyrus fragments renewed debate about Joseph Smith’s translation. The fragments included one vignette, or illustration, that appears in the book of Abraham as facsimile 1. Long before the fragments were published by the Church, some Egyptologists had said that Joseph Smith’s explanations of the various elements of these facsimiles did not match their own interpretations of these drawings. Joseph Smith had published the facsimiles as freestanding drawings, cut off from the hieroglyphs or hieratic characters that originally surrounded the vignettes. The discovery of the fragments meant that readers could now see the hieroglyphs and characters immediately surrounding the vignette that became facsimile 1.None of the characters on the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham’s name or any of the events recorded in the book of Abraham. Latter-day Saint and non-Latter-day Saint Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham, though there is not unanimity, even among non-Latter-day Saint scholars, about the proper interpretation of the vignettes on these fragments. Scholars have identified the papyrus fragments as parts of standard funerary texts that were deposited with mummified bodies. These fragments date to between the third century B.C.E. and the first century C.E., long after Abraham lived."https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng
>>18115391I disagree with that gospel topics essay.
>>18115395On what basis? Have you researched the Egyptian language and looked at the papyri yourself? Do you think you know better than the "Latter-day Saint and non-Latter-day Saint Egyptologists" on this?
>>18115398>Have you researched the Egyptian languageI know the characters are different from the Rosetta-stone era Egyptian>Have you looked at the papyri yourself?Yes.>Do you think you know better than the "Latter-day Saint and non-Latter-day Saint Egyptologists" on this?100%
>>18115390And agreed, Catholic doctrine can't and doesn't contradict scripture. But Joseph Smith writing something that "can be faithfully derived from previous scripture" doesn't actually mean it's divinely inspired. I could write a fake book in the Biblical theme that is perfectly in line with scripture, does that mean it's inspired?
>>18115400........ so you don't think the Rosetta Stone is accurate? Do you think all of the translations of hieroglyphics by modern Egyptologists is incorrect then?
>>18115401That second point is why inspiration has to be derived independently in every person who studies the Joseph Smith scriptures, a belief that cannot be passed on infallibly without direct experience.
>>18115403Rosetta Stone is accurate for the time it was made. Look at ancient Greek, compare Homeric, to NT, to Byzantine, to modern; look at English for a more extreme example. From what I can tell, Egyptians had some changes comparable to the English at least almost.
>>18115406Okay bro. Have a good night, you are clearly just out of touch with reality. I will pray for you
>>18115407While you're at it, pray about what I say, whether or not God can help you to understand whatever he wants you to know, from your own perceptions, regarding the witnessed things of Joseph Smith.
>>18115342>PERHAPS high on his own supplyThere's a great article on this called The Entheogenic Origins of Mormonism.
>I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunishedThis is from Joseph Smith himself, and obviously nothing happened to the government.
>>18115676>what is the Civil War
>>18116700>the US government was overthrown in the civil war>mormon_brain.exe has stopped workingBack in my day a real prophecy had to... come true, not just vaguely sound sorta like some event that happened but not really. Do you guys still think blacks and browns and reds who adopt Mormonism will become "white and delightsome" and literally have their skin become lighter? Or did you change your beliefs on that like many other things? I wish I could just make up shit to retcon my belief system with the changing times, alas the true God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He doesn't see MLK leading a march and decide, "whoa I don't hate black people anymore" and send down a revelation to a prophet to reverse a century of racism.
>>18116940Pretty sure the plan for blacks and browns and reds is for white men to be able to marry several of them at once and reproduce successively whiter generations, all the while also being able to marry white women, and keep the white population from declining.
>>18116940MLK was a true Christian and no more a son of Cain than you or I. The curse on generations requires repentance to lift.
>>18116940If Europe had embraced polygamy, they would have advanced Africa and India and Latin America into 1st world countries by now.
>>18116940>>18116955>>18116965Of course, if such an arrangement would result in iniquity, and mistreatment of people for the color of their skin, God would not sustain the practice to exist. God is no respecter of persons.
>>18116971Polygamy also requires there not to be general iniquity against women in the arrangement, or God will not preserve it.
>>18116700Bro, not only did the government not fall, but Joseph Smith didn't stop there in his epic fail prophecies. >And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled This didn't happen either lol
>>18117004Which part?
>>18117011The whole thing, but this in particular:>that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. What Mormons do is try to massage this with "Well, even prophets can err" which is bullshit, because Deuteronomy flat out states that any prophecy that is spoken and doesn't come true is not the words of God, which means Joseph Smith is a false prophet. It's shrimple.
>>18117011>not many years shall pass away1861>the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation>pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the landthe Civil War>to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north countryIdk what he's talking about "north country" but I see nothing false
>>18117023Jesus demonstrates that meanings can be obscure when he said the temple would be destroyed and raised up in 3 days.
>>18117038No, not the Civil War. Did hail rain down on the soldiers and wipe them out? Any earthquakes? >Well, it's SYMBOLICYeah, I can see this rebuttal coming a mile away.>A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.This also didn't happen within that generation, or even the generation after that.
>>18117051>even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.There was a temple reared up in "this generation" that was destroyed. If you won't hear it, not my problem.
>>18117063No. No there wasn't. It's just easier when you don't have to wring your brain into shreds to try to defend a false prophet.
>>18117071
>>18117074THIS generation. JOSEPH SMITH'S GENERATION. What part of this is not clear to you? It never got BUILT in HIS generation. He swore upon Jesus Christ for it and it FAILED.
>>18117071>you don't have to wring your brain into shreds to try to defend a false prophetJesus takes some wresting truth out of the scriptures to gain a true testimony, as does Paul, so why would he not create a similar circumstance with the prophet who prayed for Wisdom?
>>18117081The prophecy never says the temple that generation would build would be the one, only that they would indeed accomplish a temple in their generation, which thing they accomplished. God doesn't give prophets all the information, but keeps them from uttering falsehood, entrusting the interpretation of the prophecies to those who are rightly guided.
>>18117088That's exactly what it says, and you're willfully just denying it. You know why Joseph Conman Smith was so sure to make this prophecy? Because he didn't expect him and his followers to be kicked out on their asses from Missouri, which is what happened.
>>18117098If you glory in the wickedness that was done, then you are the child of them who killed prophets, and like a son of Cain
>>18117101Like a robot programmed to just say pre-scripted lines. You're defending a liar and calling him a prophet. For what, why? What are you getting out of it? I'm telling you right now, that if Joseph Smith were alive, he'd be astounded that he was still tricking people all these years later.
>>18117105Actually you are the liar here
>>18117109Even if I was, what does that have to do with using Joseph Smith's own failed prophecies to label him a fraud? I didn't edit anything in them.
>>18117117Apply the same rules to Joseph Smith you would to Jesus Christ, and try to convince Jews they are wrong for saying the same things about Jesus, that you say about Joseph Smith, then you will learn about your mistakes.
>>18117117>>18117124If you can't justify Jesus to a Jew without appeal to authority, why not justify Joseph Smith to yourself by appealing to others who know better?
>>18117124>>18117129>You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.The Bible is flat out calling Joseph Smith a liar.
>>18117142No, everything Joseph Smith said was true.
>>18117149Obviously not, because his beloved temple was never built in his generation. There's no room for interpretation, the prophecy was flat out wrong and thus that makes him a false prophet.
>>18117158>Obviously not, because the temple wasn't destroyed for decades, and it didn't get rebuilt in 3 days. There's no room for interpreting Jesus to have meant his own body as a temple; the prophecy was flat out wrong and thus that makes him a false prophet.t. Jew
>>18117163So what exactly would the interpretation be for zero temples being built in Missouri and Joseph Smith making it abundantly clear that it was going to be built in his generation? (It never did).
>>18117186>A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. WIP>Verily, this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place,New Jerusalem WIP at this place>even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.NJ also being constructed where the temple of this generation was, it being a general thing, not of buildings, but of people>For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.And so it was
>>18117200One could even say, the temple built at temple lot, was like the temple of Jesus, of bodies indwelling the Holy Ghost, like how New Jerusalem is a people, but you also don't have to, an the prophecy is still true.
>>18117200USA has New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, Canada has New Scotland Nova Scotia and also New Brunswick, there's even a New Mexico; Mexico was New Spain, Colombia and Venezuela New Granada; if there's going to be a New Jerusalem, the New World seems the place.
>>18117200What people, exactly? All the Mormons got exiled, there was no "church body of people" in Joseph Smith's generation in the place. No matter how you try to frame it, the prophecy is a dud.
>>18117298But they were there for a time, and it doesn't matter if they were wrongfully removed, they are the thing that mattersIt doesn't matter if the true church is driven out to the ends of the earth from pagan Babylon (Catholic Europe), they are still the true ones
The Pauline churches are valid; just as valid as the Jerusalem churchThe Latter-Day Saint churches are valid; just as valid as the Pauline churches
>>18116940>>the US government was overthrown in the civil waryes, the confederate gov was legal and federal was not
>>18117004>This didn't happen either lolmud flood was real anon
>>18117558Sorry, if you cannot affirm the Apostle's Creed then like the Jehovah's Witnesses you are not really Christian, you are a different religion which talks about Jesus but has a very different idea in mind. Muslims revere Jesus, but only as a prophet, are they Christian? Obviously not, same with Mormons and a lot of the other "restorationist" sects. Mormons have a radically different theology which doesn't even make sense internally. Say what you want about Christians, but there have been actual theologians who have thought through stuff. Mormons just throw shit out there like the Adam-God theory and then say "ooops just kidding" and then retreat back to their endless propagation of men who become gods who create men... there's no ending and no beginning in Mormonism. No "ex nihilo" creation since they think matter is eternal(???) and no end since if you do the rituals in the temple and die as a good Mormon man you get to be God of your own planet, where men will do rituals to become Gods... apparently endlessly. It's just very unsatisfying from a theological perspective. Like they haven't bothered to think their ideas through. Talking theology with a Mormon is like pulling teeth because they always deny their doctrines to outsiders because they are too bizarre to actually defend.
>>18117611ad hominem
>>18117611Nowhere does Mormon scripture contradict any so-called "Apostles' Creed"
>>18117611The "Apostles' Creed" is a word of man and not binding (sola scriptura)
>>18117611All that "theology" that you say is strange to you is not in the actual scriptures of Mormonism, which clearly state not to heed the teaching of man but only the Word of God.
>>18117611Faithful Jehovah's Witnesses who follow the commandments of God are better than you if you ignore them. If anyone doesn't like how that organization operates, they should "be ye righteous as Pharisees".
>>18117611>Talking theology with a Mormon is like pulling teeth because they always deny their doctrines to outsiders because they are too bizarre to actually defend.It really does feel like an exercise in futility. Not only do they shape-shift their beliefs whenever necessary, but they also got that Scientology cult indoctrination thing wired in their brains. Anything that threatens the programming will result in bizarre mental gymnastics and illogical assertions and deflections. The only solace to take is that their church's growth rate is stagnating and isn't exploding as it was decades ago. Just wish something would snap them out of this horse shit.
>>18117859>Just wish something would snap them out of this horse shit.When shtf you can consider their goods, wives, and daughters forfeit. This is the only fate good for them. They are worse than philistines and AVOWED servants of the devil. They keep a lot of food stockpiled and they're all low T beta males so my advice is to have at it when the time comes. They have no killer instincts so despite them shooting guns a lot they wouldn't prove tough resistance. Also may I remind you they are avowed satanists? You wouldnt even have to feel bad destroying them. Happy is he that dasheth the little ones against the stones. (Before you think I sound like a bloodthirsty freak, both J. Smith and Brigham Young all said much worse about "the Gentiles" (i.e. us); they'd preach sermons about the coming day that the Mormons would kill us all. LOL)
>>18117859>growth rate is stagnating>Speaking to new mission leaders this summer at the Provo Missionary Training Center, Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles shared an important overview of the Church’s recent growth. The Apostle said that in 2024, 308,000 people joined the Church — an increase of about 50,000 more than in 2023, and the highest number of converts in a quarter century.>Elder Cook told mission leaders that, from June 1, 2024, through May 31, 2025, convert baptisms were the highest of any 12-month period in Church history. Every region of the world saw at least a 20% increase in convert baptisms in the first quarter of 2025 compared with the same period in 2024.>The same is true a month later. In the last 12 months ending June 30, 2025, the Church had more convert baptisms than any other 12-month period in the faith’s 195-year history.https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-jesus-christ-record-global-growth
>>18117890Ah yes, brother Gonzalez and Matumbo couldn't resist the siren call for free Mormon wife pussy and signed up immediately to escape their shitholes. Just know that when Christ comes, he's going to break the LDS church in two and Joseph Smith's teachings will be no more. Such is the faith of all false religions.
>>18117884>>18117911Addendum:I would so much the more wish it to be Christ himself that destroys the Mormons rather than I or anyone else here on earth. I would rather the end of the world than another cycle of wretched civilization.
>>18117924Jesus doesn't care about what metaphysical propositions you intellectually assent to nor what denomination you belong to. Mark 9:38-41,
>>18117943Sweet! Then you'll stop sending out missionaries then?
>>18117948Congrats on being childless
>>18118009You're only argument is that you think you're winning some evolutionary breeding competition? I'm thinking >>18117884 is rather justified, no? Same moral principles.
>>18118009As opposed to the Mormon way of raising their kids into a lifetime of cult servitude and tithe payments?
>>18118016Are you not a Christian?
>>18117859>>18117884what denom?
>>18118009>>18118023>>18118025That is all Solitaire posting
>>18118023>>18118025I belong to any denomination that doesn't subject children to the most insipid and boring religious book on the face of this planet (because that's really the only effective way to get people to believe in this shit is to hammer it in their brains when they're young)
>>18118042looks like so
>>18117611>>18117859>like pulling teeth, exercise in futility.You feel this way about Mormon theology because you’re married to certain dogmas and inherited interpretations of scripture that we consider either (1) the ipse dixit of men who we find unauthoritative, or (2) unsupported by both scripture or reason.the main orthodox Christian presuppositions we reject (you need not hold all of these, indeed, even one is enough to create the divide, and this is not an exhaustive list):>ecumenical councils and creeds (especially regarding the Trinity and post-trinitarian Christological debates)>the particular Protestant confessions (Augsburg, Westminster, Philadelphia, etc.)>predestination>the necessity of Neoplatonic metaphysics to explain God>a closed canon of scripture>sola scriptura>sola fide>TULIP>the belief that revelation, prophecy, and miracles ceased with the end of the apostolic age>biblical inerrancy>Marian dogmas >post-apostolic claims of episcopal supremacy and the assumption that mere formal or nominal institutional succession equates to genuine apostolic authority>the belief that we are not currently in the end times>magisterial infallibility>an unbridgeable Creator/creature distinction>salvation as a one-time internal declaration rather than a covenantal, transformative process>God as wholly unknowable or incomprehensible>“mystery” used as an excuse for theological contradictionIf you really want to get down to it, these are the foundational issues we have with your faith that actually matter. These are what you need to defend, without appealing to authorities we do not recognize.
>>18118092>“mystery” used as an excuse for theological contradictionThat is the absolute worst, when pseuds try to force you to accept something they can't even fucking explain.
>>18118092Holding to those isn't the issue; Mormons hold a lot of things that are similar, it is the act of separation based on those non-scriptural things such as confessions like the Nicene creed, and even understandings of those confessions, that is the root of sectarian schism and the problem in the church at large.
>>18118092>These are what you need to defend, without appealing to authorities we do not recognize.The only authority you recognize is your specific church and whatever are the most recent statements it has made, even if they blatantly contradict alleged former revelation from said church...You'd give the greediest lawyer a run for his money on how fundamentally dishonest you are.Moving on...Why are there so many Mormon denominations? I just CANT TELL which one's right. Do you really think God would allow such confusion? Mormonism must be untrue! Boom. DONE.
Why are there so many Christian denominations? I just CANT TELL which one's right. Do you really think God would allow such confusion? Christianity must be untrue! Boom. DONE.
>>18118117Yes, the biggest divide comes from the creeds/confessions which stems claims of apostolic succession. To pare it down to a single issue: we have the fulness of true apostolic and priesthood authority, the rest of Christendom does not.
>>18118105>he thinks he can explain the infinite irreducibility of God and his creationMANY such cases!Go ahead and EXPLAIN the color "Magenta" doofus. Go ahead... "explain" it. You can at least "explain" a COLOR, right?
>>18118133>we have the fulness of true apostolic and priesthood authorityHow do you know there isn't a splinter in your eye?>the rest of Christendom does notHow do you know?
>>18118131YES! GOOD JOB! You figured out that I was calling Mormon apologetics hypocritical bullshit! That when you apply THEIR arguments to THEM it proves them wrong. Took you long enough.
>>18118136God is reducible down to one thing: Intelligence.
>>18118092Why do you believe in the Bible? I mean specifically the King James Bible (as translated correctly, amen). But also the Bible in general?
>>18118150The testimony of the Holy Ghost.
>>18118146Surely you don't believe all intelligence is the same?Do you think someone with Downs Syndrome could comprehend advanced mathematics?Surely compared to God we are far lower than He?
>>18118156read the King Follett discourse again
>>18118009oof>>18117884gross
>>18118158The Universe is observably not an infinite chain.It had a finite beginning (that is, we can observe this fact - not that I give exact license to "le big bang"). We can observe the Universe slowing down its expansion into an eventual heat death. An infinite regress of "gods" (a la the King Follett discourse) cannot be congruent with observable reality.
>>18118165That is not the true meaning of KF.
>>18118125I'm not going to get in a debate with why the mainline LDS church (Brighamites) is the true one with you, but this is a very rich argument coming from whatever kind of nondenom protestant you are. Your theology probably is younger than Mormonism and certainly did not formally exist prior to 1517.
>>18118168Thanks.
>>18118176I don't believe what I believe because I think there has to be "only one true church and it has to be a big top-down organization"So my position is not proven incongruent by the "multiple denominations" argument that Mormons pull when speaking of Christians. But the Mormon position is proved hypocritical by the existence of many Mormon denominations.
>>18118139Because God told Joseph smith directly thst He finds the creeds abominable. And Joseph smith was baptized by resurrected saints in the Susquehanna river to restore the lost priesthoods and given the keys by St. Peter specifically. This is exactly what we mean when we refer to Mormonism as The Restoration.
>>18118193>He finds the creeds abominableIt is their creeds and confessions in the practice of schism and exclusion based on the word of man that is abominable, without that they are not what they are.
>>18118193>by resurrected saintsThere... aren't any though?Oh well it's been long established that Mormons believe anything and everything convenient as the situation requires.
>>18118186>the 1% of schismatics within Mormonism actually disproves Mormonism.I'm not going to get into "specifically Brighamite" apologetics but BY was the true successor prophet after Joseph Smith.
>>18118209You don't think J. Smith's Wife and Son are anything other than "schismatics"?And the people who simply hold to the "everlasting covenant" of plural marriage are "schismatics"?
>>18118199Yes there are and I do want to correct myself here: Joseph Smith was baptized by the ressurected John the Baptist which restored the Aaronic priesthood, and he was not baptized again but ordained by the laying of hands by the ressurected Peter, James, and John the Beloved which restored the Melkizedeck priesthood. And also another clarification: John the Beloved was not a resurrected being but a translated one, glorified without passing through physical death first.
>>18118239Not even Paul had this much sunshine and rainbows blown up the asses of believers to affirm his authority. Absolutely none of this happened, by the way.
>>18118272>not a ChristianNot an argument.
>>18118276Whereas Mormonism is the most Christian thing on the planet, which is why the resurrected Christ ordered the slaughtering of people, despite going to his own death and forgiving the people who set him up to be murdered.
>>18118291Hey, baby, sometimes the Lord giveth and sometimes the Lord taketh away.
>>18118291no different than saying>God of the Old Testament is.. LE BAD!!!!
>>18118291>which is why the resurrected Christ ordered the slaughtering of peopleQRD?
>>18118312Or maybe Joseph Smith is a fraud, the whole Mormon theology is weak and changes whenever it needs to, and this all a gigantic waste of time. >>18118323The Son is not The Father. Do Mormons not even keep track of their own bullshit? No, of course they don't, what am I saying.>>18118325Read the boring piece of shit that is The Book of Mormon. Actually, don't.
>>18118333>Mormon theology is weak and changes whenever it needs toThe scriptures never change Anon.
>>18118349Sure.The BoM calls polygamy an "abomination". Doctrine and Covenants calls it an "everlasting covenant"
>>18118351see>>18116985
>>18118349...Except for Black people and when there needs to be new mind slaves for that sweet tithing money. Then we can kind of sweep it under the rug, can't we?
>>18118354Are you implying Mormons are SO iniquitous that they cannot fulfill the everlasting covenant God gave them?
>>18118355>sweep it under the rug?
>>18118363Are they anywhere substantially better than other sects? or have they also lost a lot of their gifts
>>18118225No and yes. Emma and Joseph III were schismatics, they and the RLDS do not have priesthood authority. Their familial relationship to the prophet does not preclude them from being schismatics. I do think they were well-meaning ans should be afforded more grace than the other usurpatory men (Rigdon, Whitmer, Strang, etc.) who walked away from the resorted priesthood as described in D&C 107.The new and eternal covenant in D&C 132 refers to eternal sealings of celestial marriage, of which plural marriage was just a subset. The fundamentalists who schismed after 1890 over the end of plural marriage also walked away from the true priesthood key holders. Those who schismed in the 1840s (some named earlier) typically did so because they opposed polygamy. Monogamy is normative in God's plan but sometimes there are periods when he authorizes polygamy. Much like how peace is normative for Christians but sometimes there are just wars.
>>18118369If theyre not any better then no one has any reason to join your church. Nor does it appear that "the restoration" accomplished anything if that's the case.
>>18118377Where is better?
>>18118333>X can't be true because it's LE BORING!Tiktok subway surfers fallacy.
>>18118364Scripture is divine, the word of God. Apparently, Joe Smithy made an oopsy and now Black people are no longer cursed. >>18118377This is what it boils down to. If the LDS church wants to affirm itself as "the one true church", then its followers can't keep with this "Well, what about other sects, what about other contradictions, what about blah blah blah". Muslims do this shit all the time.
>>18118387Where is better?
>>18118385I mean, I won't lie, it's a pretty deciding factor. You think I joke, but not even the OT and NT is that dull and I'm supposed to assume that the same God suddenly dumbed himself in the creative writing aspect for TBOM. Nah, I'm not buying it. >>18118392Anywhere that doesn't have a false prophet. Hell, you don't even need to pick a denomination, just drop the Mormon bullshit and be content with The Bible alone.
>>18118400>bullshitLike the parable:www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng
>>18118404Please, I already took melatonin, I don't need anything else to put me to sleep.
>>18118387Our argument against your church isn't like catholic apologetics "well there's 6 million denominations." the argument is that Christ clearly established a church and priesthood (Matthew 16, Ephesians 6, Hebrews) and sometime after the 1st century it's authority had left the earth. The Mormon claims would be the same even if the rest of Christendom was 100% catholic like in the year 1000.
>>18118425>sometime after the 1st century it's authority had left the earththere's no evidence that God's Word nor his Gospel ever left the earth. many people sought to pervert it but this could never take it out of the earth.you just say it like it's obvious but it's... not? anyways, how do you baptize dead people who lived between the 2nd century and like, the 1200s?literally no one can find out their ancestors from this time period.
>>18118425He doesn't have a church.
>>18118439It was obvious enough during the life of the apostles that they needed to correct apostasy with the epistles. About half of the New Testament is proof that the seeds of the great apostasy were planted within a generation of Christ's death. Many of the earliest church fathers also wrote about the mass apostasy that they were living through: Hermas, Hegesippus (quoted by Eusebius), Eusebius himself, Irenaus, Tertullian, Origen, many more.>baptisms for the dead with no written recordNow this is a good question. It will be done during the Millennium with the help of angelic ministry. By the end of the Millennium, all people who have ever lived will have had the chance to be baptized.
>>18118464>Now this is a good question. It will be done during the Millennium with the help of angelic ministry. By the end of the Millennium, all people who have ever lived will have had the chance to be baptized.And this is based on what?
>>18118464>the great apostasyIs before the man of sin is revealed. As we can see, the man of sin has not been revealed in 2,000 years. Ergo, the Great Apostasy is either currently still occurring or has yet to occur. >Hermas, Hegesippus (quoted by Eusebius), Eusebius himself, Irenaus, Tertullian, Origen, many more.Do you think quoting people you think are apostates is like... logically congruent?
>>18118472At present we are in the greatest apostasy since Jesus
>>18118333>Mormonism is wrong because the theology and doctrine changes.Christian history is nearly 2000 years of accretionary theology and doctrine. Creatio ex nihilo, the trinity, the schisms, the reformation - all accretions.
>>18118477so it's still ongoing? so therefore it has not yet completed? and if it has not completed... that means the Gospel never left the earth.
>>18114662False. Everybody knows the Jehovah's Witnesses are the one true denomination.
>>18118479>Creatio ex nihiloWhat should we call Mormon cosmogony? Creation out of coom? An infinite chain of "gods" cooming in endless celestial sex is the origin of everything. The male orgasm being the purpose of reality, presumably. You know, I can't say Joseph Smith DIDNT live his life in accordance with the belief.
>>18118492it maketh more sense than Catholic celibacy
>>18118499I'm not Catholick, thou eternal coomer.
>>18118501Aat least I'm not a phoneposter
>>18118492It's coom all the way down
>>18118521"I am more than flesh. I am me. I am my soul."Am I simply finding out that most people don't ever feel such a thing? They're like>yep god cooms all the time that sounds sick bro I love cooming too
>>18118471Based on the words of modern prophets and apostles. It's somewhere in TPJS but I don't have the citation offhand. I can look up the quote if you absolutely need me to. >>18118472the “falling away” did indeed begin shortly after the deaths of the apostles, centuries before the “man of sin” (or antichrist system) is fully revealed. The apostasy, therefore, is not a single moment but a process of decline and corruption, culminating in later prophetic events yet to be fulfilled. Thr fact that the “man of sin” has not yet been revealed does not mean the apostasy has not already taken place. it means the final eschatological stage (the open rebellion against God preceding Christ’s return) is still ahead.>logically congruent to quote apostates?Sure it is. The logic here is similar to how the Bible quotes Pharaoh, or the pharisees. Quoting someone does not mean you affirm their authority. Itsimply means their words bear witness to a truth. When Mormons quote post-apostolic Fathers we’re not appealing to them as true prophets. We’re using their own testimony as evidence that corruption, disunity, and loss of revelation had already entered the church. They saw it and lived through it. They stand as historical witnesses, not as doctrinal authorities. they document, in their own words, the symptoms of apostasy - loss of prophetic leadership, cessation of gifts, rise of philosophical theology, political interference, doctrinal division, etc
>>18118528>the “falling away” did indeed begin shortly after the deaths of the apostlesHas it completed? If not, the Gospel never left the earth. If it did complete, why was the man of sin not revealed?
>>18118528>Modern prophets and apostlesAh, right, I forgot you guys do that whole song and dance. You know, you would think that these "apostles" would have some sort of powers as in the old days. Healing, casting out demons, what have you. You could even take just speaking in tongues as a sole gift.
>>18118526God is love
>>18118556They have the power of inducing sleep upon General Conference listeners. Joke: >why do you bring two Mormons fishing with you>cuz if you bring one, he'll drink all your beer>but if you bring two they'll watch each other, and neither will drink your beer.
>>18118569It can be reasonably demonstrated that an orgasm is not love, but a physical feeling.
>>18118573must've took a page out of the Book of Ether
>>18118575Gonna need something to document that like a video perhaps
>>18118579Seriously though- I made a post above, thought nothing of it. I walk to the bus depot and instantly get approached by two (cute) female Mormon missionaries. Damn, the Mormons are gangstalking me. Please do not have cute females approach me or I will corrupt them with Total Depravity and the rest of TULIP.
>>18118600www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMbI7DmLCNI
>>18118592>t. the world's straightest Mormon
>>18118600Mormon girls are such dumb bimbos you could get yourself two girlfriends easily.
>>18118602There's a video of this depraved thing? May I see it?
>>18118600did u pull out all ur spaghetti or did u save some for later?
>>18118592www.youtube.com/watch?v=46PXaJxzuDE
>>18118615>be a born-in Mormon chile>hear tell about the glorious Temple ordinances>when I am eligible I go into the holy place and we are all dressed most fine>await what I'm expecting to be the most sublime experience of my lifetime>video related comes on>mind*=*blown
>>18118556The signs shall follow them that believe, not the other way around. Mark 16:17. A man could be raised from the dead by a Mormon prophet and you still would not believe. Luke 16:31The translation and coming forth of the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God is the greatest miracle since the Ressurection of Christ.
>>18118604>>18118611Damn I didn't want to be rude and I knew I was going to end up being such if the conversation continued. I was partially raised under the Mormon faith in one of their Canadian colonies. I'm mostly over my anger to the Mormon church for leading me astray, but I didn't want to risk being mean to these poor misguided girls. Did you know they sent colonists north to Canada and south to Mexico? The Mexican ones came back smoking the reefer, and Utah was among the first states to ban cannabis. Because the church ruled against it.
>>18118630Repent and believe the Book of Abraham.
>>18118615>1:53 *ACK* ---Mormon-time.
>>18118623They don't play The Godmakers in Mormon temples, anon.
>>18118649true but the actual Temple movie is way more cringe.
>>18118656the Temple I went to used to have not only movies but interactive media including bible adventures on the NES
>>18118626Yet, the apostles were still given authority to go out and spread their ministry even with all that. Faith from witnessing gifts isn't guaranteed, but they were always intended to supplement the message, otherwise the apostles would have kept quiet with their gifts. They didn't. If LDS presumes itself as the one true church, it makes no sense to hide it behind "two year missionaries" with no gifts, as opposed to validating their authority and legitimacy with their supposed gifts of the "apostles".
>>18118667Like in the lobby? Just gonna say I don't believe you. Unless you're mixing up the Ward building for the Temple.
>>18118683We were told, only if we advanced through the game and completed it, would we have sufficient Gnosis to understand teh Mormon scriptures and advance to the higher levels
>>18118630>they sent colonists north to CanadaIt'd be interesting to hear about your experiences.
>>18118724The town I was born in was originally two towns: Mormon town and then the other Christians had a town basically, and eventually the two towns grew into each other, and now Mormons are not in a specific area of that town. I was super devout and devoured religious literature. Eventually concluding the Mormon religion was false and refusing to go to Sunday services (which generally were 3 hours long broken up into hours with different parts.) Been inside a Mormon temple, been baptized for the dead, was "sealed" to my parents as we essentially converted although my dad was baptized as a lad. Other than that it was a pretty normal childhood, albeit pretty sheltered. We were not allowed to watch The Simpsons, I recall seeing South Park as a teen once and it blowing my mind.
>>18118787What leads to a family converting? Missionaries? Did they read the book and find it was true? Is it a sort of hysteria in women that leads to people getting locked into cults?
>>18118787Growing up in a Mormon zone must totally different from growing up Mormon in a non-Mormon area, and I wonder what it's like for Mormons and non-Mormons.
>>18114662Does the Book have to be interpreted in a literal way or can it be entertained as a vision of sorts in the church?
>>18118812Anything you want as long as you pay the tithe, brother.
>>18118815>Expects people to minister the word to him for free
>>18118824No, I mean you can come up with anything you want and no one will care as long as you pay your tithe. I'm not criticizing the idea of pastors being paid.
>>18118807I'm an adult convert who grew up without religion and converted after living in utah for about a year and a half and after meeting my wife who was raised LDS.Society functions well here. Actually it functions so well that I feel angry about the unrealized potential of where I grew up, like something was stolen from me in that godless liberal area of the country. The streets are clean. The people are friendly. There are practically zero gun laws. Traffic cops are petty tyrants. There aren't very many bars or coffeshops (obviously) unlike my hometown which has about 20x more Dunkins than the entire state of Utah lol. A lot of stuff here is new construction, there are entire towns that didn't exist 10-20 years ago. Dating was difficult because girls prioritize a man with similar morals and life goals. The furthest LDS girls go is making out. "soaking" is not a real thing (people say similar things about catholic girls doing anal as a virginity loophole - it's all just vulgar anti-christianity). But the people and especially the girls who rebel against their upbringing are supercharged rebellious sluts and actually pretty gross.SLC is a shit hole outside of the areas owned by the Church. Other than that it's pretty much a standard high trust conservative white area where I'm at. Although utah has not been impervious to the ethnic cleansing by importing Mexicans etc. and falling birth rates, we are just about 25 years behind the rest of the country on that. My neighborhood is still 100% white.As a normal looking clean cut white dude, I never got proselytized since people just assumed I was in the church already.
>>18118881>the people and especially the girls who rebel against their upbringing are supercharged rebellious sluts and actually pretty grossKind of interesting dynamic
>>18118815>>18118824At least Mormon tithes are done discreetly via online ACH transfers. Other churches will obnoxiously disrupt Sunday services to pass a collections basket around so you feel pressured to tithe heavily in front of the whole congregation.God only asks for 10%, anon. If you can't survive off of 90% of your income there are church welfare programs like food banks and jobs programs within the church to help you out.>For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes?
>>18118891Esau sold his birthright for some bread and a bowl of lentil porridge. Ex-Mormon bitches sold their birthright for STDs, tattoos, and a cup of Starbucks.
>>18118908Yeah it's either one or the other right? You can't be chaste, not get tattoos, or do drugs and generally be conservative unless you're Mormon? What the hell is wrong with coffee? Why isn't hot chocolate included in the "hot drinks" prohibition? It's not the caffeine in coffee because Mountain Dew is fine. What about hot Mountain Dew? I somewhat agree though, many ex-Mormons tend to veer too far into the opposite direction, going against the church's teachings reflexively and ending up doing stuff like you mentioned. Never just do the opposite of your opponent, or you end up with absurdities. Think for yourself. I will pray that you come to the true faith of your ancestors anon, and join an actual Christian church. God is sovereign, and he saves whom he chooses. Maybe he will deliver you and yours from your erroneous theology, perhaps not. Good luck.
>>18114662What a coincidence. I was just going down a mormon wikipedia rabbit hole this evening. The entire early history of the religion is wild. One thing I didn't realize is that the early mormon leaders would bang each other's wives sometimes and that women would gey divorced and join polygamist marriages with the prophets. Also Brigham Young apparently had a wife who was married to several men at the same time.
>>18114662Have you ever studied Egyptian hieroglyphs? REAL translation of Egyptian hieroglyphs?It proves Joseph Smith's translations wrong. But really, if you're already roped into Mormon beliefs, no amount of real evidence can dissuade you from beliefs that you didn't reason your way into.Two different kinds of people in this world, and far as I can tell, you're born one or the other; there is no changing; there's people who use reason to determine their beliefs and people who use their beliefs to determine their reason (the second will willfully disregard any and all truth, all science, and all history; if it does not agree with their beliefs). You were born into the second category, so there's really no helping you or reasoning with you; you'll just believe in un-reason your whole life.
>>18119466God saves who he pleases, he saved Moses not the Pharoah. Chose Jacob over Esau before they were born, chose Paul but not Pilate. Not from something they did but because that's who he chose. But that's more Reformed Theology not works/ritual based Mormonism.
>>18119466but I exactly reasoned the Book of Mormon &c were true from NT doctrines>>18119610>works/ritual based MormonismThat is all paraphernalia
>>18120044He's more making the point that if Joseph Smith was given full authority by God, he wouldn't make such a heinous mistake of getting the translations completely wrong. The 3rd testament of Jesus Christ (The Book of Mormon) doesn't have room for error, since it's such a monumental "revelation". It circles back around to Joseph Smith being wide off the mark = didn't have God speaking to him whatsoever = false prophet.
>>18120102>doesn't have room for error"And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men" - title pageAnd the Book of Abraham is in a completely different and way older Egyptian than the Rosetta Stone
>>18120102hence why scholars still can't give a consensus or an exact translation
>>18120107There are no goddamn mistakes with prophets speaking God's words. That's the whole point.
>>18120111Mormons believe simultaneously that the true church was 100% restored by Joseph Smith, but somehow these doctrines can be changed wholesale by the current "President and Prophet" to suit the political whims of the day. Chief example is the rescinded ban on blacks holding the "Melchizedek Priesthood" in 1978. If Smith and Brigham Young had indeed been given the true religion, why did the church they founded later betray key tenets? Wouldn't they get it right the first time? This is why I say if any Mormons are actually following Mormonism, it is the Fundamentalists or FLDS. Their leaders like Warren Jeffs have been prosecuted for polygamy particularly their penchant for "marrying" underage girls. Just like the first "Mormon prophet" did with some of the "wives" he took. Do I think it is good to do so? Obviously not, but it is truer to the original Mormon religion as practiced by the early Mormons than what predominates in the LDS church.
>>18120173>If Brigham Young had indeed been given the true religionBrigham wasn't a prophet of the order of Melchizedek except for his one entry in the D&C
>>18120173Preventing black people from holding the priesthood wasn't a key tenet of the early church. Joseph Smith ordained multiple black men as priests. Elijah Abel being one of them.Granted, I completely understand your point and agree with the sentiment. I can't say that I am a fan of Mormonism or its arbitrary rules either. However, the example that you provided does not represent the early church. Banning black people was Brigham Young's idea.
>>18121816I have heard of the Strangite church being called special/unique as being a "two-prophet" church. I really think that distinction applies to Brighamites more than anybody else.
>>18118556>>18118682I'd like people of the LDS faith to answer these posts, please.
>>18122626The offices are restored where they had eroded away from Jesus's day, them not having gifts means the Melchizedek aspects have eroded, but the Aaronic is still there. God is no respecter of persons. If a people choose to ignore him, and interpret in their own way, they lose access. LDS is just a framework, and if the people in it are just as basic as the people outside of it, the good features of the religion lie dormant, just as the good NT features lie dormant in other churches, just as good OT features lie dormant in Judaism, even the Pharisaism of old. So all things sort of even out. It's like how when the Law was only with Jews, other countries and peoples had manifestations of wisdom, often analogous to parts of the Law, so all things were equal; esp. if the real Law is ignored by Jews, so in practice they are equal to Gentiles. Same with the church: unless they explocitly differentiate themselves personally from the world, they will be just like the world, and empty giftless Christians.
>>18122626>>18122635It's like if people are "Lord Lorders" in stead of doing the actual works of God
>>18122635>explocitlyexplicitly
>>18122635"Eroded". What basis do you have to say they were eroded?
>>18122695Jesus instituted an organization in his following with twelve apostles and the 70
>>18122695The LDS organization exists but they are not observed to have all the gifts
>>18122714That doesn't answer my question? >>18122729That also doesn't answer my question?What do we mean by "eroded" when it comes to divinity granted by God?
>>18122733Can't have gifts within the old 12+70 structure when the structure instituted is goneCan't have gifts within the new 12+70 structure when they fall back on Aaronic priesthood and don't keep the order of Melchizedek
>>18122733If people choose to act in such a way as to lose their gifts.
>>18118156Ye are godsEvery stage of evolutionary life had to have an incarnation of Holy Wisdom to increase, and these are the generations of "God" breathed in flesh
>>18122740This doesn't answer my question. >>18122749This ABSOLUTELY doesn't answer my question. I'm not being obstinate, or even derogatory, but what the FUCK does anything your guys' replies have anything to do with reconciling with divinity? (and divinity would mean: pure word, no mistakes, no room for misinterpretation)
>>18122847agency
>>18122847>reconciling with divinityGod has covenanted himself to act in accordance with his own statements. If people want the gifts they have to not transgress the covenants, which means literally acting out Jesus's saying "Be perfect".
>>18122852>>18122855Guys...
>>18122865read
>>18122869I'm going to share a personal experience with you. When I was fucked, in pain, and thought it was all over, I finally read the BIble when I was taking a shit. Now, the passage that saved me was the 2nd page of the Book of Revelations. You want to something else, though? I swear this on the lives on my whole family if I'm lying. May they burn in hell. The same toilet had an image of Jesus Christ right at the bottom of the bowl. I'm telling you, Jesus Christ is our savior, and The Book of Mormon is just a fucking fraud. Please, just believe me. I'm not asking for belief for any other reason than to share the same joy of discovery that I experienced.
>>18122865What are you not getting?
>>18122879see>>18118404
>>18122879gross
>>18122883I swear to you, I would upload the picture of the toilet bowl if I could. >>18122885God is a humble guy.
>>18122865read also>>18114662
>>18122879fuck off with that shit
>>18122902I wouldn't share it if it wasn't true. To clarify, it was at the bottom of the bowl like black scratches, and it showed the crucified Jesus 110 percent. Normally, I wouldn't give much thought to it, BUT the very fact that I was at the end of my rope, and I was on the toilet when I read The Bible and it saved me... I can't ignore that, nor can I write it off as coincidence.
>>18122879>The Book of Mormon is justand true, and is the best way to find and believe in God.
>>18122918My brother, I've done a lot of discussion with fellow LDS people such as yourself. Almost all of them, when I asked what BOM verses they liked, always related to Jesus. It's not the Book of Mormon you find inspired, it's Jesus Christ Himself from the New Testament.
>>18122921How bout this? Esp. the latter portionswww.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng
>>18122896I need the comic book version desu
>>18122924Give the specific verses, you lazy bitch
>>18122945>35 O then, is not this real?
>>18122865They're low T doofuses. There are many answers to why these people are insane. On a secular level, being low T compels people to lie more and to conform to social pressure. On a literal, spiritual level, they swear themselves, verbatim, to the devil in their Temple Endowment ritual.
>>18122959which is why you exaggerate like a woman
>>18115357>Joseph Smith claimed to directly translate the papyri into the book of AbrahamJoseph Smith did directly translate the papyri into the book of Abraham, by the gift and power of God.
>>18122959I know you're an ex-Mormon yourself, but help me in trying to convince LDS followers with respect and logic.
>>18122959>insanerich
>>18122971That's not translation if he didn't translate the papyrus. You really think le 1800s man with a magic stone and a hat can translate something, but modern Egyptologists cannot? I mean, for God nothing is impossible, but considering Smith was a convicted conman in New York you'd expect people to be a little less credulous.The "Book of Abraham" is a very obvious fraud. It's like if you took a small smattering of Chinese characters and got pages and pages of English KJV fanfiction out of it. There's just not enough there. Now, if you want to say that he magically downloaded his King James Version ye olde Englishe prose (which was already archaic in the 19th century) from "the Cloud" that raises another question, why did he need the papyrus at all? Why did he get the details he drew on the manuscript totally wrong? We know this because we have more complete copies of the same image and hieroglyphs. Alas, I doubt anything will convince the Mormon apologists to stop and think any thought that their church considers verboten. Probably too invested in the religion (both in terms of money given in tithing and in terms of ideology) to actually listen to an argument against their beliefs without becoming defensive and calling it "anti-Mormon" propaganda.
>>18123132Whatever verse we shall abrogate, or cause thee to forget, we will bring a better than it, or one like unto it. Dost thou not know that God is almighty?
>>18123152Deuteronomy 4:2: "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you".Revelation 22:18-19: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll">Joe adds an entire new set of books and several other books>then literally begins to "retranslate" aka add and subtract from the Old and New TestamentsOops, that's not a good look.
>>18123177It's not additions of man like your denom. You do attend church, right?
>>18123177Jews pull Deut. 4:2 on the New Testament>this scrollWhat does "this scroll" mean? Has the Bible ever been put all on one scroll before? Wouldn't that be adding by the hand of man to the book of Revelation, to consider every other book to be a part of it?
>>18123177There can be 1000 scribes' versions of Revelation in English, but one prophetic edition is too many?
>>18123182Yes, but even wacky Christian denominations don't have a whole different Bible written by John Calvin or Martin Luther or Francis or Augustine or Aquinas or whoever "founded" the denomination. That's strictly restorationist territory. The gates of hell, it is said, will never prevail against the church - except Mormons think it did long ago and the true men-becoming-gods religion was lost.
>>18123214see>>18122770
>>18123216That's nice, good luck becoming a god through rituals. You're gonna need it.
>>18123223>works-based exaltationThe only necessary work is faith.
>>18123223>>Ye are gods>That's niceIt's in the Bible lol, Old and New testaments. Jesus said, even.
