The spain_c_osteppe EHU001 sample is quite intriguing due to its high percentage of Steppe ancestry (42%) compared to other Iron and Bronze Age samples in Iberia, which generally barely reach 30%.Given the sample's dating (2564-2299 BC), it is more logical to argue that it is part of the Bell Beaker culture, therefore pre-Celtic. It is plausible that it represents one of the first Indo-European settlers of the region. Although yes, it is only one individual, and we cannot make many categorical statements, perhaps we are seeing a similar case with profiles like that of Logkas in Greece and the dilution of this ancestry in later periods in other regions, such as Mycenae, where it went from 40% in Logkas to as low as 15% in certain samples.Perhaps the sample may reflect an early phase of Indo-European migration. More samples would be needed to confirm this hypothesis, but it is certainly interesting how this sample contrasts with the other samples. thoughts?
>>18129823Ironically, the worst areas to be a pastoral worker.
>>18129823Who is closest to this person?
>>18129850They probably arrived by boat, not on foot.
>>18129823Interestingly, Its R-L51
>>18129893Yes, bell beaker derived
>>18129823I bet it's gothic, but it's dated and wrong.
>>18129850You can take goats and sheep. In some ways this territory is useful in that the terrain can prevent a flock from wandering too much but I don't think cattlemen would venture into the hills and mountains often.There is an Indo-European term *ḱm̥tógʷus, literally "100 cows", which was used to describe wealth or a wealthy man.https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/%E1%B8%B1m%CC%A5t%C3%B3g%CA%B7usOne has to wonder if the IEs who wandered past mountain barriers were actually considered the poorer segments of the population who had no cattle and only goats and sheep.
>>18129945Ah yes, I knew it was another thread from /his/'s favorite linguistard, Iberia was already agricultural.>>18129823This is an underscore (_o) and it doesn't mean anything at all.
>>18129959>forgetting to take your medicationsNot gonna make it.Young and poor are often synonymous. After IEs began moving into Western Europe they probably increasingly chose settled lifestyles and adopted land ownership. What was the driving force behind the continued IE expansion across many generations? Probably young men who hadn't yet established themselves, who owned no land or cattle. So they set off across mountains with some goats and maybe a dog in hopes they might find a suitable place to live.
>>18129959Certainly the authors cataloged it as an _o, yes, but did you at least try to understand my thread? Nothing was ever stated beyond the fact that this sample may represent one of the first IEs, perhaps wandering, to migrate to Iberia. We cannot simply ignore the sample, as it is pre-Celtic and has significant steppe, and the anonymous person you replied to is not me. Spain has a large area suitable for grazing, which favored the development of pastoral strategies. From the Neolithic period to the Middle Ages, livestock farming was important, especially in regions like New Castile, where the dry climate and low population density made cultivation less viable.And this certainly applies to Neolithic communities.The presence of agricultural populations does not invalidate the hypothesis of Indo-European migrations to the region
>>18129979See>>18129980It's more complicated than he said, actually Spain, and by extension the Iberian Peninsula, has a history of droughts and sometimes unfavorable soil for cultivation. Archaeologically speaking, things aren't as black and white as shepherd vs. farmer. Neolithic societies certainly practiced it, perhaps not with the same frequency and intensity. And again regarding Spain, pastoralism never disappeared and is practiced to this day in certain regions, mainly in the north.
>>18129979>>18129980Dudes, They arrived by boat.
>>18129990What makes you think that?
>>18129996The earliest movements from the Tagus Estuary were maritime, leading to enclaves in southwestern Spain, southern France, and the Po Valley in Italy, likely utilizing pre-existing trade routes.
>>18129990Sameflag BTFO'd
>>18130008What was refuted? Does having a naval culture automatically preclude someone from being a shepherd? Besides, some artifacts of pig remains in four megalithic complexes in Wessex suggest that pigs were imported over considerably long distances. So I don't know what the problem is here.
>>18129996Maritime people/culture
>>18130020I see, I see. Lord Poseidon must have taught this branch how to herd sea cows >>18130006Did you know a PIE word for boat is reconstructible?*néh2ushttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/n%C3%A9h%E2%82%82usIt's difficult to imagine they would not have heard of the existence of boats, but under what circumstances did PIEs encounter boats?1) they saw or used canoes along rivers2) they ventured up to the coastline of the Black and Caspian Seas and saw boats there. Perhaps they traded at the coastline3) they actually owned and used boats themselves. But where did they use them?There's no chance they ever crossed the Black and Caspian Seas with boats, right? Right??? I'm just asking. Sorry if this is a ridiculous train of thought.
>>18129945Btw, I need to talk to you about something.
>>18130044Do you want to talk to me here? Privately? Another thread?
>>18130037>Lord Poseidon must have taught this branch how to herd sea cowsI'm not a "pagan" and I certainly wasn't belittling. it's well known that bell beakers were a maritime culture, or at least had maritime tendencies, especially in coastal regions. There are even some boats made of sewn planks from Ferriby, Great Britain, c. 2000 BC>néh2usYes, that's another argument in favor. Remember that the first PiE (whether Sredny Stog or Yamnaya) lived on the Volga River; there weren't just rivers there, but they were also close to the Black Sea.
>>18130061>I'm not a "pagan"I didn't say you were.>it's well known that bell beakers were a maritime culture, or at least had maritime tendencies, especially in coastal regions.The problem with this assertion is that isn't it the case that "Bell Beaker culture" is primarily Bell Beaker shaped pottery? Of course this pottery sometimes tracks IE migrations, but other times it probably doesn't.According to the map that was just posted, are we supposed to believe Bell Beaker people were sailing in the Mediterranean Sea? Or is this just a pottery trade that was moved around by boats?
>>18130056I think it's strange for us to discuss "private" matters; you don't know my story, and people aren't very trustworthy these days.But I think you know me from the topics about Indra and Soma and the Aryan term I "found" among the Galicians. I see you've created interesting topics, like the one about h4ryomen and your discovery of the term Dasa, which irritated some people, but was very useful. I personally didn't know it.I have a certain "project" to try to gather a collection of Proto-Indo-European and related myths.Obviously, etymology is not only fundamental to comparative mythology, but it's one of the essential methods according to Mallory and his methodology. Basically, that's it. Let's say... Something similar to what you did with that table of Aryan cognates. Yes, I know your topic has become a mess, and if you consider it useless. Regarding the topic about Indra, people were simply being malicious, and I believe I found something interesting about another term derived from "Aryan" in the Iberian Peninsula.
>>18130070You quoted Poseidon, not me. Your post seems to fit into the 1960s views of Colin Burgess and company, a pity, but there has been a resurgence in migration theory, the Wikipedia page summarizes it well if you want to read it:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_cultureAnd basically, we are seeing a migration of people, not just "trade" across the Atlantic and Europe. Recent research on the Bell Beaker Culture highlights the importance of human migration, showing that there were displacements of groups involving exploration, contact, settlement, and acculturation. Genetic and strontium isotope studies indicate that the Bell Beaker Culture involved significant migrations, with genetic replacement in regions such as Neolithic Britain. Genetic models also show connections between Bell Beaker groups from Italy to Spain.
>>18130090This was a great addition to the thread. I share the same view; it cannot be reduced merely to a "collection of ideas transported by traders" at this point, with clear migratory patterns and genetic data. The sample I commented on is probably one of those. And possibly, some "pre-proto-Italic-celtic" dialects could have been spoken by the Bell Beakers, given that the groups from the western Mediterranean (Paleobalkan) were derived from the Yamnaya and those from the north from the CWC
>>18130070>The problem with this assertion is that isn't it the case that "Bell Beaker culture" is primarily Bell Beaker shaped pottery?No, the oldest samples are quite homogeneous and only became diluted when they went south. There was migration, and in fact, it wasn't just reduced to pots; there are patterns. Certainly, there are places that follow the Bell Beaker rite but with little or no ancestry, like in Sardinia. Yes, but that doesn't negate the fact that they were migratory groups.>>18129823Maybe proto-lusitanians?
>>18130037>but under what circumstances did PIEs encounter boatsKind obvious
>>18130090>Recent research on the Bell Beaker Culture highlights the importance of human migrationThere can be no doubt.It's just that I heard a long time ago that some of the early "Bell Beaker culture" was pre-IE and IEs later adopted this pottery which then spread with their migrations. That could be outdated. It might also be the case that this idea was based on archaeology with no genetic samples. I look forward to any light you can shed on this topic.
>>18130104I think we're being extremely reductionist on the issue of the IEI. They were certainly pastoralists, but they had a limited vocabulary for agriculture and even for "house," found in branches as divergent as Iranian and Greek. The word comes from "*dem-" (meaning "to build") plus the nominal suffix "-s." In other words, the word is formed from the root meaning "to build" and a suffix that forms nouns. We must take all this into account, so boats wouldn't really be a problem. They were hardly, at least the LPIE, totally dependent on nomadism as was the case with the Mongols and Turks.
>>18130109Yes, in the past information was scarce or less elaborate than it is today, mainly in the Bell beaker statement.and the fact that bell beakers don't have a very linear burial pattern compared to Yamnaya or corded ware led some to these theories, but this is outdated, and don't believe me, Please, the Wikipedia link I posted has sources you can check and read. The lack of samples naturally contributed to this, but it was also due to how British and American archaeology questioned the idea of the "Bell Beaker People" since the 1960s, so several ideas were created, such as ethnic belts not being attestable or theories that emphasize cultural contact instead of migration. Colin Burgess and Stephen Shennan were exponents of this approach. But it turns out that, ironically, much of what so-called "outdated archaeology" said, such as ethnic divisions of Neolithic peoples like Funnelbeard and Cordedware as separate ethnic entities, has been confirmed by genetics... isn't that something? But note that I'm not denying cultural syncretism; it obviously occurred.The problems facing archaeology today are not whether or not a migration occurred, but rather where and when exactly certain pottery patterns appeared.
>>18130078I'm not interested, these threads are fake, like Migration Bell Beakers.
>>18130156Stop pretending to be other people, you retarded piece of shit, this isn't your place, you little piece of carrion.
>>18130078You didn't say explicitly but here's an email I can be contacted by. If you don't want to talk privately, just make a thread.
>>18130153>>18130109Since I mentioned the issue of England, you should read:Olalde et al. (2018) basically discovered that the initial spread of the Bell Beaker family in the Iberian Peninsula had a limited but existing link to migration, since we saw a replacement of native male paternal lineages by bell beakers, there was a replacement of (30% of the Iberian Peninsula's ancestry and almost 100% of its Y chromosomes by people with steppe ancestry) we can discuss this in more detail later, but the subsequent expansion, especially in Great Britain, is interesting, it was strongly influenced not only by migration, but possibly an "invasion" resulting in a replacement of about 90% of the local genetic heritage in terms of Ydna and a lot of steppe ancestry, these samples that he posted>>18130100 are consistent with this. There is a bell beaker sample with almost 70% steppe, for example. And they derived directly from the CWC, more precisely from SGC (single grave culture) A study by Yediay et al. (2024) showed that the steppe ancestry in the Bell Beaker culture populations came from the Corded Ware culture, and not from the Yamnaya culture.A study by Olalde (2023) revealed that Iberian samples of the Bell Beaker vase with steppe ancestry were genetically related to Bell Beaker vase individuals from Central Europe, Great Britain, and Scandinavia, with patrilineal lineages derived primarily from Central European ancestors. Therefore, we are dealing with a population, not just "ideas".
>>18130182So be it. I think it's possible to compile these concepts; moreover, something interesting is how the association between Hercules and Ogmios opens new perspectives in Celtic studies, suggesting that myths about "Hercules in Gaul" may be Greek interpretations of native Celtic myths. But I encountered etymological difficulties, as apparently the name was borrowed by Gaulish speakers from Greek in parts of Gaul. "ὄγμος" is semantically derived from leadership.And this is me>>18130190
>>18130078There's nothing to compile because everything is fake and reconstructed "*" PIE didn't have writing
>>18130190>There is a bell beaker sample with almost 70% steppeWhich one?
>>18130210He posted these samples, see.>>18130100EHU001 could be the early BB in Iberia
>>18130037Do u believe in Poseidon?
>>18130219>Do you believe in Santa Claus?lmao
>>18130223I do.When I was 18, I literally saw him. It could have been someone in a costume, but why did the power go out right after that, and then suddenly presents appear in my room?
>>18130209You lost
>>18130190I am in agreement that there were migrations. What this really boils down to is when I saw the map earlier there were dots on Sicily and the premise is Bell Beakers were sailing around. The conventional migration route is for Bell Beakers to have migrated from the north through the Alps and into the Italian peninsula. So I wasn't sure if I was suppose to interpret that as a pottery trade to Sicily, Bell Beaker people migrating on land, or Bell Beaker people migrating by boat.
>>18130241You're just trolling him, right, Why don't you just admit you don't understand any of this once and for all?
>>18130241?
>>18131114Bell Beakers were probably a maritime culture early on considering they colonized the British Isles but I'm just looking at dots on a map here. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know a priori how they got to certain locations in the Mediterranean. Looking at Sicily, if we assume these are people and not pottery, did they walk down the Italian peninsula or did they sail there?The popular scenario right now is that Bell Beaker genes came from the northern part of the peninsula and went southward.
>>18129823it's a slave brought by sea by proto-greeks
>>18130201Thinking about it more, I really don't think it's fruitful; there's very little to analyze, and the etymologies are weak. It believes in migrations, but a comparative mythology is linear. Besides a few aspects, making such a list would be tiring and circular, so I'll pass. Studies of mythologies are generally done by independent people. I believe the Bell Beakers were a migration of a racial group, as I said before, it's merely a style, not a race of people.
>>18131208It's your right, don't feel pressured into anything, but again, it's bad faith for you to be denying or refusing to understand the issue of the Bell Beakers being a group based on migration versus acculturation; that's already been explained. What didn't you understand?
>>18131218My posts above illustrate other problems; you don't want to read them for some reason. The Mediterranean refute this weak hypothesis
>>18131218I don't speak ESL. Don't confuse this guy with me.
>>18131222I already suspected that... it must have been the troll flooding the threads>>18131221There was no constructive criticism, and even if the posts were yours, they didn't refute what was presented... what is your choice? Stop trolling or ask pertinent questions?
>>18131222What's the difference between u and him? Both r genetically illiterate
>>18131231What exactly is the problem here? I recognize the consensus that Bell Beaker culture generally tracks IE migrations. One of the issues under discussion is whether or not we need to understand that the spread of Bell Beaker archaeological sites in the Mediterranean is due to Bell Beakers sailing or Bell Beakers walking to these locations.
>>18131244>One of the issues under discussion is whether or not we need to understand that the spread of Bell Beaker archaeological sites in the Mediterranean is due to Bell Beakers sailing or Bell Beakers walking to these locationsThe studies I cited above address this issue; I won't delve into the question of Italian or Iberian genetic composition, as it's more complicated than "Bell Beakers + EEF," but in short, as I said, there is an influx in the western Mediterranean and Italy. A study by Saupe et al. (2021) showed that Bronze Age populations in Italy had a mixture of Chalcolithic and steppe-related ancestry. Genetic analysis suggests that steppe ancestry may have arrived in Italy via the Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe. Furthermore, the paternal haplogroups found in Italian Bronze Age men are similar to those of the Bell Beaker culture.
>>18131244U're being ignorant on purpose. The OP already answered these stupid questions you ask. You've already shown yourself to be stupid about genetics in other threads where 3 people showed you sources and you just denied it. You're a disgrace to your father.
>>18131262The issue of sailing vs walking has already been answered? Sorry, I must have missed it.I don't think there's any debate that Bell Beaker genes entered Iberia and Italy.
>>18131276Why are you so annoying? Stop trolling.Obviously they were a maritime culture, we already know that, what's the problem? In Central Europe, migrations on foot may have occurred.
