So I was just reading Corinthians I and the early Church assembly did seemingly have "miracle workers" for a lack of a better term and people who experienced the "gift of tongues".Has there been any record of the above in any modern Church?
>>18130798These were apostolic sign gifts, their purpose was to confirm the ministry of the apostles and prove their word was from God. Since the office of apostle has ceased so too has the sign gifts.
>>18130798"speaking with tongues" = speaking in foreign languages.There were many more local languages being actively spoken in the Ancient World. And cities were a place where these languages met. Poor people were not necessarily well spoken in the "common Greek" of a city. When Paul says "I speak with tongues more than ye all" he is literally saying "I speak more languages than anyone else"Which is probably true no matter how you look at it.Paul probably spoke>Hebrew>Aramaic>Latin>Greek>Cilician>Galatian(?)>Other various Anatolian languages MAYBE
Mass psychosis>babbling gibberish is a magical gift
>>18130798You do realize the bible is not evidence of the content written within it, the best the bible can be used for is hearsay (a rumor)
>>18130808You do realize this is cope
>>18130809The bible promotes animal and human sacrifice as well as obedience to tyrannical governments
>>18130813>um but bible is le bad!Cope seethe and dilate.
>>18130808Paul's epistles are just letter he sent out to the various Churches.
>>18130806I know, but the gift of tongues is to be able to speak a language without formal or informal training. >>18130799Why not refresh it every N amount of years?
>>18130838>Why not refresh it every N amount of years?For what purpose?
>>18130798The Didache (probably a composite document, but I suspect parts of it go back to pre-Pauline times) goes into detail on this topic, it's short so I'd recommend reading it.
>>18130799Cessationism is heresy.It's also unique to modernist schismatics, and is attested absolutely nowhere in the patristic literature.The charismatic gifts of the holy Spirit correspond to various members of the body of Christ, and their office. Like a glove for your hand, or a shoe for the foot.You think the body of Christ is without arms or legs. But it is not, it's whole and fully functional as much as the risen Christ's body is.Read 1 Corinthians 12 again.>the office of apostle has ceased so too has the sign gifts"Sign gifts" is not a phrase found in the bible. This is an invented doctrine of men, and this coming from those who claim the RCC invented doctrine is deepest hypocrisy.The charismatic gifts are not limited to the office of apostle. Moreover, the apostles directly invested successors with binding and loosing authority via the laying of hands.Because you deny this, you are sundered from the apostolic tradition and the full deposit of faith.
>>18130798Miracle works? Yeah.
>>18130798>Has there been any record of the above in any modern Church?No, because none of them now do the will of the Father.
Appalachian snake charmer churches regularly have miracles, so do Pentecostal churches in africa
>>18130798Early christianity looked like Pentecostalism with a mix of infant's being Baptized by pouring and adults being Baptized in streams. It was wild.
>>18130847It would btfo all the false denominations and prevent people from unknowingly engaging in satanic heathenry instead of following the one true faith - [insert denomination with miracleworkers].
>>18131828No it didn't, tongues means languages.Gift of tongues is learning Persian through the holy spirit.
>>18131856Maybe you need to just embrace the Holy Spirit anon. How do you know Pentecostals aren't right if you have never tried it?
>>18131872>How do you know Pentecostals aren't rightthey worship a devil in hell and don't practice spiritual discernment, literally they have the blindness that Jesus was said to heal.
>>18131771>"Sign gifts" is not a phrase found in the bible. This is an invented doctrine of men,No it's not, it refers to the gifts mentioned at the end of the Gospel of Mark, in Mark 16:17-18.In Mark 16:20, it says, "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."In other words, the "signs" being referred to are the speaking with new tongues, casting out devils, surviving serpent venom and the gift of healing. The signs were present in the churches where the apostles went to, during the time the New Testament was being written. These were miraculous signs that were needed in order to confirm who the Lord's apostles were, and to confirm that their words were inspired.Now that we have the Scripture they wrote and the New Testament has been written, there are no more occurrences of the sign gifts. However, those signs still confirm our faith today, since we are able to believe in them and know that their words were and are inspired, even without physically witnessing the signs. As Christ said, "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).Also, the apostles' office never ceased, since the original apostles are still alive in heaven. And we still have their word uncorrupted today. The original apostles never needed successors (the only exception is Judas Iscariot, since he went to hell and therefore had to be replaced).
>>18131883Anon. Jesus said you aren't supposed to speak ill of the Holy Spirit. Are you sure you are ok? Hopefully you aren't possessed. Please seek immediate faith healing help. I am worried about you.
>>18131843The word of God defeats all false denominations. Peter called this a "more sure word of prophecy" in the following passage (notice the third verse below):"For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"(2 Peter 1:17-19)
>>18131891>speak ill of the Holy SpiritI did no such thing.
>>18131898Ok. I hope it heals you up good anon. Stay safe.
>>18131903Getting jazzed up from some peppy music isn't the "Holy Spirit". You people are so lost, I don't even know where to start with you.
>>18131890>Now that we have the Scripture they wrote and the New Testament has been written, there are no more occurrences of the sign gifts. However, those signs still confirm our faith today, since we are able to believe in them and know that their words were and are inspired, even without physically witnessing the signs. As Christ said, "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).>Also, the apostles' office never ceased, since the original apostles are still alive in heaven. And we still have their word uncorrupted today. The original apostles never needed successors (the only exception is Judas Iscariot, since he went to hell and therefore had to be replaced).Is this a common belief among Protestants?
>>18131890The bible does not say that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit would ever cease.In so far as every gift corresponds to a specific member of the body of Christ, know that not one member of his body is lamed or inactive. All of the works of the Holy Spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians are still in effect today.> original apostles are still alive in heavenCorrect.However there are two spheres of operations, the terrestrial and the heavenly. This is partly what is meant by Paul when he speaks of "diversity of operations".The church on earth is called militant because their struggle continues, while those in heaven are called triumphant because they have overcome.The apostles were leaders of those on earth in Jesus' stead, and themselves appointed leaders to perpetuate the administration of church government spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.That's why he tells them to care for his sheep. That's a charge that would be passed down from the apostles to their successors.In fact, we see the appellation of apostle applied to others who were not originally among the 12, like Barnabas and Timothy.They share in the office, which office is invested with binding and loosing authority by Christ himself.That same authority never passed away, or became unnecessary.
>>18130798If you fast and pray with faith, not wavering, things are meant to happen
>>18132112>The bible does not say that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit would ever cease.If by charismatic you mean given by God's grace, then yes, that includes gifts other than the sign gifts mentioned in Mark 16:17-18.>know that not one member of his body is lamed or inactive.Yes because the original apostles are still alive today in Christ. And we still have their uncorrupted word today.>All of the works of the Holy Spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians are still in effect today.In 1 Corinthians 13:8, Paul mentions that the gift of tongues shall cease. This is one of the sign gifts earlier mentioned. It means those gifts were given for a particular time and place to "confirm the word" (see Mark 16:20) spoken by the apostles, among which are those who wrote the New Testament. Paul's prophecy here points to a time when these gifts will no longer be occurring in earthly churches, as indeed they are not today. Babbling incoherently is not the gift of tongues either. God is not the author of confusion, as Scripture tells us in 1 Corinthians 14:33.I would still say the sign gifts are "in effect" insofar as we read about them in Scripture today, and they are as real for us as they are for those who witnessed them in person. When I read about the sign gifts happening in New Testament times, it's far more real for me than some wicked unbeliever who mocks God by writhing on the floor like someone who is demon possessed, and blasphemously calls that a gift from God, all while ignoring what God's word clearly says.>In fact, we see the appellation of apostle applied to others who were not originally among the 12Outside of the Bible, people have said lots of things. But you don't find it in the Bible.
>>18132145Let me put this another way.The apostles had the authority to found new church congregations.People without this authority could not do so.Now, if they did not pass down this authority then by whose authority was your congregation established?>chapter 13Warfield was simply wrong. Cessationism is a modern innovation, it has no basis in antiquity.Much the opposite.The "perfect" Paul is speaking about, which will put away prophecy and knowledge which is "in part", is the second coming of Jesus and eternal life in Christ. The beautific vision.It's not referring to any codification of letters and books.Paul's point about tongues, prophecy, and knowledge is not that the gifts will cease after a certain point in time, but that they are subject to charity (love) and without this love are nothing in themselves.Being only "in part" rather than whole.It is this love which is perfection, holistic, which unites the disparate gifts in itself. As these gifts belong to certain members of the body, these body parts are made whole through love. They relate to and depend upon one another, if any body part were to cease working then the entire body would suffer.These are literally vital functions of the church. Love is the divine essence, it is the exceeding perfection that existed before the world was made which is one in the triune godhead.
>>18132145>Outside of the Bible, people have said lots of things.But that's literally in the bible.There are several people identified with that title who were not among the 12.>some wicked unbeliever who mocks God by writhing on the floor like someone who is demon possessedYou should be *very* careful when talking like this.Attributing the gifts or works done through the power of the Holy Spirit to the devil is the blasphemy of which Jesus said would never be forgiven in this life or the next.People like those who run "GotQuestions", who openly credit supposed Eucharistic miracles to Satan himself, have done this thing.They should have known better. In fact, because they read what Jesus said about it they have no excuse.The Eucharistic host becomes the body of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus cast out demons before the Pharisees by the same power of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees said that it was by the power of the prince of devils that he cast them out, and GotQuestions says the miracle of a host is done by the power of the same; they both blasphemed the Holy Spirit.I have nothing against Pentacostals, they don't seem especially wicked to me. And they do believe in God.Believing in God doesn't mean you aren't wicked.>indeed they are not todayYou have never experienced them, that doesn't mean they have ceased.
Basically, Paul's words mean that the spiritual gifts are not an end in themselves.They, along with the disparate members of the body of Christ which they individually correspond to, are made one in communion of the holy Eucharist. Which is the central act of love defining the Christian faith.Through this communion, the gifts of the Holy Spirit worked through individuals are supernaturally made available to the entire body of worship world wide.That is the perfection of love Paul is writing about, not the closing of a canon of letters.
>>18132231>Warfield was simply wrong.Whoever you're talking about didn't write 1 Corinthians 13. This is your mistake, anon.>These are literally vital functions of the church.Notably, you aren't even quoting from Scripture to support any of this. This is just your opinion. This alone proves you are unscriptural. The fact that you have not a single scriptural prophecy to bring up to support any of this, shows that you are in the midst of disregarding God's word. You only want to nullify and disregard Scripture. You substitute your own opinion in its place.>But that's literally in the bible.It's not and that's why you have absolutely nothing from anywhere in Scripture to talk about. That's why you never even bring up any verse. And you know that if you do, that if you try to bring up any biblical passage, it will easily be shown right away that you are false and lying about Scripture, no matter what passage you try to quote from.
>>18132289>And they do believe in God.You mean pentecostals? Anon, speaking in tongues means being able to speak foreign languages one has never learned. That's not what pentecostals or charismatics do. That's never what they do. They babble like schizophrenics having an epileptic seizure. They have nothing to do with the miracles in the Bible. Yes, I will say with 100% confidence that they are demonic, they're acting under demonic influence. It's an attempt to mock God, the true God of the Bible who they have rejected and are rebelling against. It's absolutely, without a doubt satanic. And I want nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with it. As Paul said, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:11)If these people who identify as charismatics don't repent, they are bound for hell."Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."(2 Corinthians 6:14-16)"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."(1 Timothy 6:3-5)
>>18130838>why not refresh it any N of yearsGod does not play by puny mortal rulesHis Power is infinite and beyond time
>>18130798The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the early church to establish the authority of Jesus the Messiah before the Israel (the law required it) and for the expansion of evangelical operations. After Israel's second rejection of the Messiah in the book of Acts, the gospel goes straight to the gentiles who don't need any of that so the gifts eventually ceased as the bible itself tells us would happen.Today, though, while miracles still happen for private consumption, they are not to be witnessed publicly, let alone by direct action and command of a person like it used to be, but I have heard at least one account of a brother in Christ being able to speak to a tribe of savages in their native tongue while on a misionary trip.
>>18132702Somehow I really don't think you're in the right place to be criticizing their choice in liturgy.It personally offends your sensibilities, which are conditioned along certain lines. Lines I don't think you have much experience outside.To me there is really not that much separating you from them liturgically.Your claim to authority in this matter is as baseless as theirs.You keep repeating to yourself that they don't believe like you do, while I would say that you're being flippant and disrespectful of Christ's stark warning repeated in the gospels that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.If you believed that Christ is Lord, you would not put him to the test on this point. The way you speak about other Christians no less, as if it's impossible for the Holy Spirit to work among people you don't approve of personally. >I will say with 100% confidence that they are demonic acting under demonic influenceYou are talking like a Pharisee. That is exactly what they accused Jesus of doing.You should never emulate them.I'm not saying their babble is necessarily the work of the Holy Spirit. I reserve judgement, not mete it out; God is at liberty to act in ways you might not expect or are capable of comprehending.What I am not willing to do is casually give credit for this expression of Christian faith to the enemy, as you are.I do not need to invoke either the supernatural or the preternatural to explain these babbling congregants. Nothing they're doing demands extraordinary explanation.
>>18130798>Has there been any record of the above in any modern Church?Yes, research the Pentecostal movement (e.g. the Asuza Street Revivals) and modern charismatic and neo-charismatic organisations. John G. Lake is one example, Louis Francescon, William H. Durham, N.A. Urshan are others.
>>18133140>before the Israel (the law required it) and for the expansion of evangelical operations. After Israel's second rejection of the MessiahJews who deny the Son and are not in Christ are not "Israel". Christians in Christ are "Israel". Do not allow the Christ killers to deceive you with their claim that they are the covenant people. Such lies that they tell are antithetical to Christianity.
>>18133598Pick up a bible once in a while."And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. " (Romans 11:26-28)
>>18133608>Israel shall be savedIt was and it is those that are born of the spirit in Christ because only they can come into the promised kingdom. John 3:5Shive your lies up your ass, Christ killer.
