new Roman trvke
He's a fucking liar and in papers since the Antonio 2019 paper the Eastern admixture has been dated hundreds of years before that, to the Late Republic or perhaps even earlier. The architects, philosophers, historians at that time were these Eastern Greeks who brought Hellenic science and culture to the peninsula. And they were Anatolian Greek, not Syrian. Do not trust any Germanic who studies Classics or Rome. I suspected this amerimutt was suspicious and my suspicion was confirmed. They're always looking ways to subvert the historical record and paint Southern European peoples as mongrels and the "original" Romans as Germanic.
>>18134098He's not a liar, but it should be mentioned that when the Roman Empire fell the demographics reverted hundreds of years, because all of the Middle Eastern immigrants, who lived in Roman cities died and were replaced by the rural Italians and incoming Germanics. So it's not like Italians were permanently fucked. Although of course they never became as White again as they were during the Republican era.
>uh... uh... retard on shitter said something retarded!!! Leftists BTFO!!!OP has no chin
>new Roman trvke>look inside>it's astrology for incels
>>18134107No, he is a liar, and so are you. They were not Middle Eastern immigrants, they were mostly Greeks (yes, Anatolian Greeks were also Greek) with some small number of Levantines and North Africans. Romans became Italic-Greek mixed people. The demographics never reverted besides the Middle Easterners who haven't left anything noticeable in the Italian population, which is why there was no increase in Levant_PPNB. Then due to the Goths, Burgundians, and Lombards, they introduced 10% (in Neapolitans) to 20% (in Northern Italians) Northwest European admixture, which shifted them towards Northern Europeans on PCA "canceling out" the Eastern input on PCA, but did not remain the same people as IA Italics. This was the ethnogenesis of the Italian people.
>>18134120A real trvke right here kek
>>18134098> Eastern admixture has been dated hundreds of years before thatare you talking about the 10% eastern Mediterranean admixture, this was very different from the subsequent increase plus near eastern DNAyou are incorrect
>>18134126lmao, massive med-nig*er cope
>>18134134You obviously haven't read any of the archaeogenetic papers on Rome or Italics, and haven't even read the full Antonio 2019. It's useless arguing with someone who hasn't even reviewed all the relevant information and literature.
>>18134109>Leftists?
>>18134134Italy_Imperial/Italy_LA picks up zero Levant_N under non-retarded models and so do South Italians and Greeks.
>>18133899So scientifically speaking, Orthotards are genetically incapable of being Roman?
Nordicists decisively BTFO by based bloghttps://italiantro.blogspot.com/2011/01/tenney-franks-orientalization-refuted.html?m=1https://italiantro.blogspot.com/2016/02/biochemistry-skeletons-ancient-rome.html?m=1https://italiantro.blogspot.com/2010/09/few-foreigners-in-ancient-rome.html?m=1https://italiantro.blogspot.com/2010/09/minimal-impact-of-roman-slavery.html?m=1
>>18134139It's better to use this infographic from Lazaridis using admixtools2 than the closed source G25 made by a Polish nordicist that has some weird behavior when it comes to SE Europe. We can see the increase was in Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, not Levant_PPN. What Levant_PPN was brought by those Greeks must have been at a similar level or only slightly elevanted compared to EEF. The overall Levant_PPN remained the same over time, besides in the Imperial samples, because they included some Levantine outliers. If you remove those outliers it would be the same as the other eras of history.If Levantines significantly contributed to Roman and Italian DNA, this wouldn't be the case. PPN admixture would be significantly elevated beyond the IA Italics.
>>18134226>Polish nordicistKek
>>18134248He literally is and anyone who remembers his past as Polako from forumbiodiversity and other places will confirm. He used to claim elite Mycenaeans would all be R1a before the Lazaridis paper on the Palace of Nestor, and that wasn't even that long ago.
>>18134126>No, he is a liar, and so are you. They were not Middle Eastern immigrants, they were mostly Greeks (yes, Anatolian Greeks were also Greek) with some small number of Levantines and North Africans. Romans became Italic-Greek mixed people. The demographics never reverted besides the Middle Easterners who haven't left anything noticeable in the Italian population, which is why there was no increase in Levant_PPNB. Then due to the Goths, Burgundians, and Lombards, they introduced 10% (in Neapolitans) to 20% (in Northern Italians) Northwest European admixture, which shifted them towards Northern Europeans on PCA "canceling out" the Eastern input on PCA, but did not remain the same people as IA Italics. This was the ethnogenesis of the Italian people.I have heard about this theory of northern and eastern gene flows cancelling each other out but it is not supported by the evidence I can model any pop as resulting from different gene flows who theoretically can cancel each other out.
>>18133899Another retard saying "Republican era" even though there are only two samples from that period and one is East Med mixed.
>>18134277It's supported and shown in papers. That's the difference between PCA and autosomal DNA modeling and why you need to learn admixtools2. The Urbino Bivio Imperial Roman samples from around 100-200AD clustered with Campania and Apulia and not Picentes, and are a mixture of Italic and Eastern Mediterranean genetics. Modern people from those region are northern shifted from that point.
>>18134226There's this other study that uses Iran_C instead of CHG and says pretty much the same thing:https://greekcitytimes.com/2023/03/16/new-dna-study-southern-italy/ https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.26.482072v1.full>These observations suggest that populations from Central and Southern Italy had a lower contribution from AN than Lombardy, or alternatively, that Central and Southern Italians received contributions from other different groups, possibly associated with present-day Middle Eastern or African regions (19,40,41).>However, when the affinity of Italian groups with African and Middle Eastern populations was tested, Southern Italians resulted not significantly closer to any of the two (Table S4).And you can sort of replicate it in G25: >>18134197
>>18134254>>18134248But why, didn't actual nordicists wanted to gas poles?
>>18134098That's not what he's saying at all. What is with this anti-Nord/anti-Italian coalition? Who are you goddamn freaks. You can't reduce any argument to Nordicism especially when it's not being even loosely implied.
>>18133899By the time (western) Rome fell it had also not been the political center of the Empire for nearly two centuries, so whether or not Romans were demographically replaced in the city of Rome itself is irrelevant when most of their emperors and soldiers are balkanoids, isaurians, Gauls, or from outside the Empire entirely.
>>18134214Based. No wonder the J*ws chose them as their attack nogs to bring ruin everywhere around the world.
>>18134450There's not enough samples from the Republican period to really say anything about it and "foreign born" during this period would at most refer to Celts, Greeks or other Italics since Rome hadn't expanded anywhere near the Middle East yet. These chuds obviously want to pretend they were all Middle Easterners when none of the studies suggest it so.
Okay so we're just going to ignore the reports of contemporary Romans and fixate entirely on haploautism now.Even though there are only a pitiful number of samples bottlenecked by survivorship bias.This board is illiterate. Archaeogenetics is not the final arbiter of history.
>>18134586Okay, let's analyze the passage then:>The poor, who were thus deprived of their farms, were no longer either ready, as they had formerly been, to serve in war, or careful in the education of their children; insomuch that in a short time there were comparatively few freemen remaining in all Italy, which swarmed with workhouses full of foreign-born slaves. These the rich men employed in cultivating their ground, of which they dispossessed the citizens. Caius Laelius, the intimate friend of Scipio, undertook to reform this abuse; but meeting with opposition from men of authority, and fearing a disturbance, he soon desisted, and received the name of the Wise or the Prudent, both which meanings belong to the Latin word SapiensFirstly, this is Plutarch (a Greek) narrating something that happened hundreds of years before he was born, so it's not that reliable. Second, "foreign-born" can mean pretty much anything here. Greeks? Illyrians? Celts? Punics? Or perhaps even other Italics since they were still fighting for Roman citizenship as far the Social War. Most of the slaves during this period were supposedly Celts (see Third Servile War). Rome hadn't conquered Anatolia or the Middle East yet, so zero chance of these being "Levantine slaves" in this case.
>>18135282Plutarch wuz a Syrian slave!
>>18133899>Rome, a brown civilization, fell because of snownigger immigrantsmore news at 9
>>18134450There's at least one nordicist-obsessed brazilian on this board, it's like godwin's law how fast any rome-related thread descends into him favelaposting about nordicists
>The republic fell due to class warfare.Lol who gets taught this?I was taught by very milquetoast High School profs in my Philippine shithole and their narratives went: "The Roman Republic Collapsed because of very ambitious nobles & the army evolved from a militia force to a professional standing army that started following successful generals around instead of the state."
>>18133899funny
>>18133899East Med invasion of Rome/Italy should be more well-known
>>18135591>army evolved from a militia force to a professional standing army that started following successful generals around instead of the statewhy?answer - because of class warfare
>>18134107How come the most shithole parts of Italy and the most niggerish Italians are from the most Greek regions?
>>18134098I'm interested in learning about this. I have heard that Republican Romans were West-Med, like modern North Italians, and that during the Imperial Era there was a significant shift Eastwards. You are saying that the Republican samples are too few? And that the the Eastward shift was Greek and Anatolian Greek and little from Levant and North Africa? This still constitutes a racial replacement of the original Romans. But iirc, you say that Republican Era Romans might have already have had significant Greekjeet admixture? This doesn't make a lot of sense, but I would like to hear the argument
isnt R1b U152 still very common in north/central italy? if there was an east med then germanic replacement shouldnt it have been greatly reduced?
>>18133899Race replacement is a form of class warfare so saying the republic fell because of class warfare would still be correct
>>18136416>I have heard that Republican Romans were West-Med, like modern North ItaliansIron Age Italics and Etruscans clustered with modern Northern Italians and Spaniards, but they weren't the same. They initially didn't have (besides outliers) excess CHG, which is the telltale sign of the Eastern shift.>You are saying that the Republican samples are too few?There are way too few. Calling that cluster Italy IA Republic was frankly dishonest and misleading making an assumption that the Republic was the exact same as Italics before it, and it led to people believing that they really tested all these samples from the height of the Roman Republic when that's not true. It should have been named "Iron Age Central Italy", because that's what they are. Only 2 of those are dated to the time of the Roman Republic (of which one is mixed with this Eastern admixture), most are Etruscans, a Villanovan, and so on.>and that during the Imperial Era there was a significant shift EastwardsIt started before that time.>And that the the Eastward shift was Greek and Anatolian Greek and little from Levant and North Africa? Yes, that's literally undeniable. The authors of the paper just call it Eastern Mediterranean which meant Aegean and others ran with this and interpreted it as the Levant and lie about it constantly.>This still constitutes a racial replacement of the original Romans.Obviously they were not the same as the Iron Age Latins after this. The original Latins also wouldn't have been able to create the power of the Roman Republic and Empire without Hellenic influences on their culture.>But iirc, you say that Republican Era Romans might have already have had significant Greekjeet admixture?That's somebody else. Late Republic I would say yes definitely maybe with a minority of some pure Italics still left. Early I don't really know. There is not enough information yet. I predict most are like existing Italics and Etruscans with a significant number of outliers.
>>18136529It's common in all of Italy. Northern Italians are still 50% or so Italic, and Southerners 30% or so. Italics didn't get replaced. They just got watered down.
>>18134418>Why does non X larp as X?House nigger syndrome
