Is paganism impossible according to Guenon?In his first work on Hinduism, he argues that Hindu idolatry is the worship of various aspects of the Absolute.Is polytheism illusory for Guenon and are there only variations of monotheism? What is the evil of 'counter-initiation' in this case? What is the source of 'counter-initiation'?
What is the difference between the 'counter-initiation' and the 'left-hand path'?
Is Evola a Luciferian?
Where does this attraction to esotericism come from? Why couldn't Guenon accept the idea that truth is accessible on an exoteric level?
>>18165228Because then plebs could have access to it.
>>18165267Does truth depend on the number of its adherents?
>>18165271Elitism is the appeal.
>>18165169I myself held many traditionalist views but I don't take these tradcons even the historical ones seriously. In the end he was an idiot who thought converting to sufi islam was a good idea. Maybe he should have realized that the ancients hold many dumb ideas.
>>18165274>No, I am not a useless human who wasted his life of philosophicsl mumbo jumbo. I know esoteric truths. It is those useless peasants who don't know the truth.
>>18165279I'm currently reading Sedgwick's book and I must say that Guenon doesn't seem very serious. He joined some occult groups, was 'initiated' into the Taoist Triads, Martinists, Templars, Gnostics, Freemasons, and Sufis.He borrowed his contempt for Catholicism from a very strange occultist, while refusing to explicitly state his disagreement with Catholicism when it came to financial matters (publishing articles in Catholic journals, teaching in Catholic institutions).
>>18165288>occult groups, was 'initiated' into the Taoist Triads, Martinists, Templars, Gnostics, Freemasons, and Sufis.It sounds like some kind of larp. Where did he find gnostics in the modern age or templars? Taoist triads? Did he really find some chinese? How could he make sure that they don't spout a bunch of nonsense to gain money from ignorant westerners? This all sounds like some kind of modern new age charlatan. This is a pattern I notice with new age nonsense, new age sects or just someone who wants to sell you "magic". It is one of the reasons why I don't take intellectuals of the past that serious anymore.
>>18165288>>18165290It is also the reason why I'm almost 100% a materialist. I believe in some kind of deist entity and I believe in some kind of afterlife but outside of NDEs and reincarnation I don't take anything anti-materialists seriously. It is too much filled with bullshit and charlatanry. I want to believe but every non-materialist thing has been charlatanry so far.
>>18165290>this all sounds like some kind of modern new age charlatan Because it is. This impulse has existed for a long time, when we have some temporal distance to people like Guenon we tend to assume it’s more authentic, but it never is. If anything, it would have been less authentic: because as you pointed out, there would have been less genuine knowledge of traditions like Daoism in the west when he was alive.Every serious thinker contemporary to Guenon, if they were actually aware of him, knew he was just a clout-seeking dumbass. He’s “that kid” from when you were seven years old who lied to everyone who would listen that his grandpa travelled through a black hole and his dad worked for Nintendo, and growing up for him was learning to express that impulse through esoterica.
>>18165295What do you think about presuppositionalism as presented by Greg Bahnsen and John Frame?
>>18165302>presuppositionalismIs always bullshit to me, bullshit that never tries to convince the unbeliever but always just tries to deceive the believer into losing his doubts> Greg Bahnsen and John FrameWho?
>>18165169him being a devout muslim at the end of his life answers all your questions. you cannot uncover some lost monotheism. hinduism is a good study case of the decay of religion. but you must, in the end, submit to God through a pure and intact faith
>>18165306>him being a devout muslim at the end of his life answers all your questionsAll it shows him being a charlatan.
>>18165310okay maybe you think he should have been a cow piss drinker or a pole worshipper in some lithuanian forest or something
>>18165306After converting to Islam, did Guenon ever condemn any non-Islamic tradition as idolatry? Did he abandon references to Hindu metaphysics?
If he had publicly renounced his works, which express un-Islamic views (kufr), you could say he had fully embraced Islam. But in his philosophy, Islam is one of many legitimate paths, on par with Hinduism. Does his later writings really teach the superiority of Islam over Hinduism? Can you prove it?
>>18165316>cow piss drinker>if you dislike islam then you are a pajeetMuslims are truly the dumbest animals.
Sedgwick writes that Guenon's involvement in the Sufi tariqah was minimal, and he generally expressed skepticism about tariqahs. His library contained no books in Arabic. He inquired about Ibn Arabi from a Parisian friend, not from Sufi sheikhs. And what, exactly, is the esoteric side of choosing Islam? He himself admitted that he chose Islam out of convenience. Guenon literally wrote that no tradition is superior to another.
>>18165290There are modern gnostics. We don't believe in same old gnosticism. It's inner knowing. Essentially, you know, others don't, so guided by this knowing, you obtain your inner divine Knowledge, and it neednt be gnosticism ov le ancient gnostic legends, but it is gnosticism. Which reminds me:Current gnosis, it's been a steady progresdion, leading here:2022, channeling info: a beacon from Hell Star System will come to Sol System. Result: Atlas 3i is here, has deployed drones apparently, tough naysayers say it's le rok. Current gnosis of today: We are demons from Hell Star System, your Sun is damaged, we send Motherships, bigger than Earth, test for patterns (spikes) in solar weather for veracity confirm.
>>18165316>cow piss drinkerI don't know how important cow piss is in hinduism. I don't know much about hinduism but I know that there is a religion whose holy book describes camel piss as a medicine.
>>18165316Opulent.
>>18165421>Sedgwick writes that Guenon's involvement in the Sufi tariqah was minimal, and he generally expressed skepticism about tariqahs. His library contained no books in Arabic. He inquired about Ibn Arabi from a Parisian friend, not from Sufi sheikhs.In other words it is likely he had no idea about islam or sufi islam except for what some other europeans wrote about it?
>>181655241) He followed the publications of orientalists, although he was critical of them.2) He communicated about Islam primarily with Europeanized Muslims (in Egypt) or with Europeans who had converted to Islam. Some Sufi sheikhs at that time were Freemasons. In Egypt itself, Sufism was losing popularity.3) His understanding of Islam was influenced by Vedanta, Freemasonry, and Perennialism. His library contained only about 50 books on Islam, 50 on China, 50 on Judaism, but 400 on Hinduism and 200 on Freemasonry.His move to Egypt was more due to financial reasons (admirers gave him a house and provided him with a salary) and paranoia (he believed that dark forces in France were hunting him), rather than a desire to be closer to the tariqah.
>>18166287Based guenon poster, I’m also exiled from /lit/ for 2 more days
Bump
>>18165524To be honest, Muslim peoples have a poor understanding of their own culture. So-called Orientalists have made great strides in studying the traditions and languages of the East. Today, Muslims and Hindus, if they want to understand their own traditions, cannot do so without turning to Western editions of primary sources and monographs. The Arabic Wikipedia articles on Islamic thinkers are full of references to Western sources.I can compare this to the situation among Jews. In pre-revolutionary Russia, Jews who converted to Orthodoxy were recruited into seminaries to teach Hebrew. But these Jews fared much worse, because the European approach to language learning (a detailed mastery of grammar) is more effective. A learned European will learn the language thoroughly and be able to read any text, whereas in the Jewish tradition, each new text is studied as if from scratch (often initially through memorization without understanding). It's much the same with Muslims.
>>18165169>>18165175See:https://archive.org/details/reneguenon/1976%20-%20Miscellanea/page/n11/mode/1upBasically, polytheism is a degeneration from the primordial principal unity, and is born mostly due to ignorance of its exoteric adherents. The many pagan "gods" are originally supposed to be corresponded to "angels" in Abrahamic religions. When such degeneration becomes too excessive (e.g. the notion of the Supreme One is completely forgotten), the tradition ultimately loses its transcendental value and is reduced to mere cultural customs (the Japanese Shinto today is a typical case), or is replaced by a new tradition (which was Christianity to the Roman Empire)."Counter-initiation" refers to something entirely else. It belongs to the final "inverted spirituality" that is destined to appear just before the end of our world. We still don't know what that is or how exactly it will be manifested, although I do think that Donald Trump fits the prophecy of the Antichrist perfectly, so it will be related to him in one way or the other. Apparently he is creating a "new world order", claims to bring a "golden age", which will possibly lead to a "new world religion".(1/2)
>>18168222https://maypoleofwisdom.com/2024/07/13/the-course-and-destiny-of-inverted-spirituality/>Guénon sees history as a descent from Form (or Quality) toward Matter (or Quantity); but after the Reign of Quantity-modern materialism and the ‘rise of the masses’-Guénon predicts a reign of ‘inverted quality’ just before the end of the age: the triumph of the ‘counter-initiation’, the kingdom of Antichrist. This text is considered the magnum opus among Guénon’s texts of civilizational criticism, as is Symbols of Sacred Science among his studies on symbols and cosmology, and Man and His Becoming according to the Vedanta among his more purely metaphysical works.>The Counter-Initiation has six main features: syncretism; inverted hierarchy; deviated esoterism; the granting of the temporal transmission of spiritual lore precedence over the vertical descent of Revelation; the reduction of religion to utilitarianism (magic) and esoterism to a purely technical knowledge (Promethean spirituality); and the mis-application of the norms of the individual spiritual Path to the supposed spiritual evolution of the collective.>>18165182He diverged from traditional orthodoxy in many places, so not authentic. You generally should be cautious when it comes to any form of "politicized traditionalism", as they can be easily used as instruments of the counter-initiation, becoming part of the very evil they claim to fight against. The golden age cannot happen when current humanity is still here, and anyone who wants to bring forth a "return" at this age is only adding more confusion and corruption.>>18165279What makes you think it's not a good idea?>>18166290/lit/ is now mostly morons and posers. Guenon threads archive on warosu.org are far more valuable.(2/2)
>>18165472This is bullshit, but I believe it.
>>18168233Why is Druzism (or Ismailism) a counter-initiation, but Sufism is not?
>>18165169>AbsoluteEven if such a thing existed, thinking it is some conscious being instead of an impersonal force is beyond retarded. Guenon and all monotheists are dumber (and more dishonest, if they had any contact with good philosophy, ie not apologetics and theology) than words can describe. There is a reason only only Abrahamics and Hindus are monotheists, the vast majority are brown and the only Whites had in the past (and many still do) such idiotic beliefs like young earth creationism and geocentrism. Meanwhile the people who have the greatest societies have always been polytheists. The high IQ Asians with the most stable countries, and the ancient whites with the greatest civilizations in all of history, the Greeks and Romans.
>>18168332The smartest Greeks were monotheists.>if they had any contact with good philosophyWhich philosophers do you consider good?
>>18168340>The smartest Greeks were monotheists.Except they weren't and you're lying.>Which philosophers do you consider goodBasically all of those who are not apologists or theologians, ie those who get btfo by atheist you tubers on a daily basis.
>>18168340>The smartest Greeks were monotheistsNo, they weren't. They were Epicurean.
>>18168376>Except they weren'tYou haven't even read Plato.>Basically all of those who are not apologists or theologiansName the 'good philosophers' who lived before 1700.
>>18168404>PlatoHack
>>18168404>You haven't even read PlatoI don't need to, I know he was a polytheist. You christcucks wuz not Greek philosophas nor the Roman empaiah.
>>18168625>I don't need toLol
>>18165169The counter-initiation is a sort of hijacking and inversion proper initiatic currents/traditions. The term "left-hand path" has been used and abused over the decades, but things like Vamachara tantra, even though they may offend the sensibilities of some, are capital-T Traditional.
>>18168906>even though they may offend the sensibilities of someWhat do you mean?
Why did Guenon believe that Christianity lacked esoteric tradition?Why wasn't monasticism an esoteric path for him? Perhaps he disliked the idea that, as a Catholic, he would have to choose a vow of celibacy to be initiated into a monastic order. In any case, Guenon seems to have an inexplicable prejudice against Christianity. Influence of the occultists? The grass is greener on the other side?
>>18169914"Esoteric Christianity" is either something doctrinally different from what your priest/pastor teaches you, and therefore a heresy (e.g. Catharism, Manichaeism, Perennialism, Pelagianism, etc.), or just a fancy name for how you experience internally run-of-the-mill Christianity
>>18169914>The grass is greener on the other side?This. It is exoticism. He realized that the spiritural traditions of his culture are bullshit therefore he searched for spiritual traditions of other cultures hoping they were true. It is the magic of the gapes. Similarly how myths of the past often happened in strange lands outside of where the myth was created.
>>18170490The same applies to any esotericism, including Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, and Taoist.
>>18170490From the perspective of Sunni Islam, references to Vedanta are heretical. The idea that Hindus or others can attain truth without Muhammad is heretical for Muslims.
>>18170503It certainly applies to Islam as well: Sufism is often attacked by regular Muslims, and Alawitism and Druzism even more so.Other religions don't really have a concept of heresy as something outright wrong, rather than merely different, nor are they known to deploy Inquisition-like powers
>>18170503I don’t think that Guenon is deeply familiar with the Catholic and Orthodox tradition.His library contains very few books on Christianity. Its main part consists of books on Hinduism, Tibet, and Freemasonry.
>>18170505No matter what muslims say. They deify Muhammad just as much as christians deify Jesus. Why else would he be part of their creed?
>>18170511From the point of view of the Islamic tradition, Guenon is a kafir and a heretic.
>>18170510His mother was a regular church-goer, he would have known Catholicism as well as your typical rural Frenchman from 100 years ago (i.e. well enough)
>>18170517His mind had been clouded by occult false teachings since his youth. Therefore, he developed an arrogant attitude toward Christianity. This was combined with a desire for something exotic.
I don't understand why some pseudo-intellectual right-wingers take him seriously. He was never taken seriously bt the nazis from what I understand.I also don't understand why anyone takes Evola seriously as an expert on fascism. I don't know about fascism but if you want to understand national socialism then it makes more sense to study the works of german nationalist writers from the 19th century and the early 20th century up to Weimar and the Third Reich than it does to study Gentile, Evola or Guenon.
>>18170533They desire some kind of metaphysical rootedness. But the irony is that Guenon was a nomad and a tumbleweed in terms of religiosity.
>>18170524>people either agree with me or are wrong and brainwashedSeems like you're projecting with that accusation of arrogance.If people won't flock to your church when freedom of religion is available, maybe you're doing something wrong
>>18170682How many references to the Greek Church fathers are there in Guenon's works?
Guenon was somewhat familiar with scholasticism, but his occultist arrogance didn't allow him to delve into Christian doctrine.His acceptance of Schuon as a real Sufi sheikh shows that Guenon perceived even Islam as a form of Oriental Freemasonry.
>>18165169Peculiar looking face.
>>18165169>be guenon>muh perennial philosophy>all religions are based except the ones i don't like>"paganism is impossible because my french catholic brain can't comprehend polytheism as anything but a spooky deviation from the One True Metaphysics™">claims idolatry is just worship of aspects of the absolute>so Hindus are based and metaphysically pilled>but then turns around and calls actual paganism a "counter-initiation">bro just admitted his entire system is arbitrary and based on his own preferences>what even is "counter-initiation"?>vague spook about a metaphysical boogeyman that opposes his secret club of tradcaths and sufis>source is literally "trust me bro"Whole schtick is a LARP to make his eurocentric cringe take on religion seem deep. he just defines whatever he doesn't like as invalid. it's pure cope.
>>18169914What’s the point of celibacy from an actual Traditionalist perspective?
>>18168233Evola didn’t want to “bring back the golden age” he knew it was impossible. His whole shtick was “Ride the Tiger” (also the name of his most popular book) meaning the idea that Noble Souls could survive such a spiritually lame time.
>>18172972Cultivating subtle energies that exist inside you regardless of your religious identity
>>18172613He believed it was counter-initiation because the actual pagan tradition died out, he believed chain of initiation back to the genesis of the tradition was necessaryhe didnt have a problem with paganism he mentions the lost "Celtic doctrines" numerous times in his work
>>18173002True but then you can have sex. What’s the point of a morally tinged lifelong “vow” might be a better question.
>>18173009Celibacy is retarded and anti-life. Christianity in its current state holds some esoteric meaning because it is impossible for anything to be fully separated from the one but the only good aspect of celibacy is to withhold from hedonism until you can find the opposite sex who can elevate your soul higher.
>>18165326No but getting yourself initiated to a pagan order is basically impossible now. Evola came to the same problem and at his final years had a crisis on how to get man to his spiritual primacy without the need to iniitiate. Islamic and Buddhist traditions are the only one with a clear path to the metaphysical order of the world that still have sacred initiation rites and neither of those are pagan.
>>18165288>while refusing to explicitly state his disagreement with CatholicismHe is quite open that the possibilities for metaphysical realization with Catholicism were extremely limited if present at all, but he mentioned the possibility of it being dormant and revived.>>18165290>Did he really find some chinese? No, a Frenchman who traveled to Veitnam and who was initiated into a Vietnamese Taoist Triad returned and also initiated Guenon into it.>>18165306>hinduism is a good study case of the decay of religion.Guenon didnt consider Hinduism to be decayed or invalid, its just that its possibilities of initiation for a westerner are limited to Tantric schools >Did he abandon references to Hindu metaphysics?No, Hindu Advaita (non-dual) metaphysics formed the cornerstone of all his writings on metaphysics till the day that he died.>>18165421>Sedgwick writes that Guenon's involvement in the Sufi tariqah was minimal, and he generally expressed skepticism about tariqahs. His library contained no books in Arabic. He inquired about Ibn Arabi from a Parisian friend, not from Sufi sheikhs. Sedgewick makes broad generalizations that are inaccurate. Guenon received subsequent initiations into Sufism after moving to Egypt and personally participating in Sufi gatherings that were mostly Egyptian muslims. He was also personal friends with the head of al-Azhar university who was a learned Sufi himself. The idea that Guenon was only informed about Sufism from western sources and didnt have firsthand knowledge could not be more factually wrong. When people spin these narratives that require detailed knowledge of Guenon's life but then get basic facts wrong its hard not to conclude that they are speaking in bad faith, out of some spite or animosity. >>18166287>He communicated about Islam primarily with Europeanized Muslims (in Egypt) or with Europeans who had converted to Islam.Wrong, see above
>>18169914>Why did Guenon believe that Christianity lacked esoteric tradition?Because the church spent centuries actively stamping it out and murdering people that seemed to be expounding esoteric ideas that went against the mainstream teaching. Moreover it's hard to pinpoint any examples of genuine traditional Christian esoterism in existence today. At most you can pick out a handful of mystic writers who were never officially "condemned" as heretics but there is no existing lineage in receiving personal spiritual instruction in their teachings and how to practice them which is almost as important as the idea themselves.
>>18170503>The same applies to any esotericism, including Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, and Taoist.That isn't true, it's only in the Abrahamic faiths that the gap between the esoteric and the exoteric is so extreme.In most eastern traditions (Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism), the doctrines taught in esoterism don't conflict with or contradict the exoteric teaching but they typically refer to secretive methods of practice, visualization, yogas, meditations, mantras etc that are considered appropriate to only be revealed to the properly qualified adept.
>>18173694>No but getting yourself initiated to a pagan order is basically impossible now.Not true at all>Evola came to the same problem and at his final years had a crisis on how to get man to his spiritual primacy without the need to iniitiate.This was just his way of coping>Islamic and Buddhist traditions are the only one with a clear path to the metaphysical order of the world that still have sacred initiation rites and neither of those are pagan.1) Tantric Hinduism is fully open to westerners, there are non-dualist Shaivist and Shaktist tantric schools like Sarvamnaya and Sri Vidya that are centuries old that a westerner who is really interested in the subject can get initiated into if they take the time to track down an authentic teacher or religious center where those are taught2) Sikhism also accepts western converts, if you pursue the study of Sikh texts and their inner mystic path closely its pretty much ultimately the same as Sufism and non-dualist Hinduism even if some Sikhs dont take it that far.3) So, there are really at least 4 valid options, namely Islam (Sunni Sufism/Shia Irfan), Tantric Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism. Genuine Taoism may still exist but it’s just less accessible, maybe still in Taiwan or a remote province of China one can find an authentic teacher willing to take on a western student. If you become fluent in Mandarin it opens many doors though, chatgpt gives lists of various Taoist centers where one can study as a student.4) “Pagan” is usually taken to mean “non-Abrahamic” and in that sense Buddhism and Tantric Hinduism are fully pagan, Sikhism is mixed but there is heavier Hindu influence than Islamic influence.
>>18173815>Sikhism also accepts western converts, if you pursue the study of Sikh texts and their inner mystic path closely its pretty much ultimately the same as Sufism and non-dualist Hinduism even if some Sikhs dont take it that far.I forgot about Sikhism because it's comparatively so new. You are correct though. To be honest it seems like the closest to classical Hindu thought.> “Pagan” is usually taken to mean “non-Abrahamic” and in that sense Buddhism and Tantric Hinduism are fully pagan, Sikhism is mixed but there is heavier Hindu influence than Islamic influence.That's fair. I'm used for it being as polytheistic. The concept of worshipping a different monotheistic God is so naturally absurd to me that I forgot that medieval Christians even called different monotheists pagans.
>>18173694>Islamic and Buddhist traditions are the only one with a clear path to the metaphysical order of the worldAny proofs?
>>18173728>metaphysical realizationWhat is this? Did Guenon himself achive that realization?
>>18173734Define 'esotericism'. Why man should search some esoteric ways instead of being a normal religious person?Why esotericism must have a lineage?
>>18174223Sufi Islamic orders and Mahayana Buddhist orders still exist and are open to everybody with the emphasis on a unified order that transcends the individual and all labels while still having an initiation process with an emphasis on extinguishing the ego. Though I was unaware of Sikhism being open to non-Indians. Hinduism is extremely hard to define and many traditions are not open but allegedly there are still some in Southern India too.
>>18173815Why not just be religious? Any proofs that these paths will get you to something really good for you? Even your listing of those traditions as something very similar looks weird - these traditions are in conflict with each other.
>>18174236Catholic orders still exists and so? Why Sufism and Buddhism are better options? I don't understand that kind of Guenonian selectivity.
>>18174241With Vatican II it is probably possible to see the Christian God as non-dualist and the afterlife being an ascension of the soul to it's true owner rather than locations that God judges where you belong. However, Vatican II didn't exist at this time and with the amount of contradictions involved to come to this conclusion with early Christian teachings I still can't say it gives you a clear path.
>>18174252That doesn't explain why he chose islam. Islam is very explicit about heaven and hell. You go to hell if you don't believe in their religion according to their holy book the quran and it is described there as the stereotype of the fiery torturous hell.
>>18174264People who believe are people who submitted to Muhammad and saw him as the messenger of God. There were Christians, Jews, and even Zoroastrians who joined him and are classified as believers. Islamic history saw caliphs as successors to the Prophet and their legitimacy rose from that. In Sufism, the allegiance to the sheikh is the person who will give you the esoteric knowledge and how to apply it to the real world to elevate your consciousness back to God. This was the mainstream view for most of history until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
>>18174295Why is this necessary? Why weren't personal prayer and participation in the liturgy sufficient for Guenon?
>>18174300Every Christian tradition that exists today does not believe in man's ability to purify from his sins. In Catholicism, the only way you can get rid of sins is through confession. There are mediators between God and the average person as there are people who lack the divine spark in their framework. That is quite different than following someone because they have mastered the art of transcendence and you wish to emulate them.
>>18174317>Every Christian tradition that exists today does not believe in man's ability to purify from his sins>In Catholicism, the only way you can get rid of sins is through confessionAren't these statements contradictory?>who lack the divine spark in their framework>they have mastered the art of transcendenceHow can you prove that?Sorry for the pickiness and annoying questions, but I find Traditionalism aesthetically appealing, but extremely illogical and bizarre in its argumentation. It's essentially the same as Theosophy, just with stricter rules.
>>18174295Heaven and hell and especially the tortures in hell are mentioned in the quran several times almost in all surahs.The quran is very explicit about wanting you to believe it.Islam is very absolutist.
>>18174327When I think about traditionalism I think about people wanting to live like gentlemen in the 19th century and early 20th century not some evolian or guenon esoteric nonsense.What is even traditional about them? Larping with some metaphysical nonsense?
>>18174327>Aren't these statements contradictory?How? When I say man I mean the individual. I'm also oversimplifying things because in Catholicism it is even more bleak. In Christianity mankind does not have a direct connection to God outside of physical institutions akin to Judaism. You could argue Christianity as it exists today formed specifically to stomp Hellenistic esotericism.>How can you prove that?God speaks through your conscious. It's our only way of understanding anything beyond the material world. The form may appear different but the truth is the same.
>>18174339If that form is Christianity then it is also fine. I am ultimately just answering why Christian doctrinal teaching is difficult to mesh with Traditionalism. I think Catholics are universalist and the pope probably is.
>>18174226> What is this? It involves a transformative spiritual understanding or realization that involves one transcending the normal default human condition, in a way that is integrated within the metaphysics of one’s tradition, one goes beyond the normal egoistic identification with the body or individuality by awakening to one’s true nature and subsequently abiding in that until death, i.e. more or less enlightenment. In the more extreme form in Advaita it involves realizing that one’s inner Self is the Supreme Godhead, but even in more devotionalistic traditions like Sufism or Vishishtadvaita there is still essentially a destruction of the false ego and one abides in a spiritual state in which one recognizes that one is ultimately nothing but a derivative mode or dependent aspect of the Divine. In Buddhism this is the same but the terms are just explained using Buddhist terminology centered around emptiness, the luminous true nature of mind, dharmadhatu etc. Needless to say this permanently uproots all normal/mundane human psychology ills, brings about complete spiritual fulfillment and bliss and is the raison d'être of human existence.The closest thing in Christianity appears to be eastern orthodox theosis, but its debatable to what extent this results in the same sort of transformative realization, and there arn't any really accessible means of participating in this unless you join some remote monastery.>Did Guenon himself achieve that realization?That seems quite plausible yes, but it would be uncharacteristic of him as well as unbecoming in general to claim this in writing though. The way people wrote about what it was like to be in his presence could be interpreted as suggesting that.
>>18174234> Define 'esotericism'. It refers to the inner secretive teachings of a religion, which is usually focused on spirituality or spiritual realization, but not necessarily.>Why man should search some esoteric ways instead of being a normal religious person?If he wants to transcend the ills of the normal human condition and reach spiritual perfection and complete spiritual fulfillment in this very life>Why esotericism must have a lineage?1) Because the connection to the tradition is what helps ensure that one is attaining that realization in a way that conforms to what that tradition intends, i.e. that is authentically sourced from that religious tradition2) Because having someone personally instruct you in it who has attained it themselves is what makes it possible for you to be guided and instructed by someone who is properly qualified to do so, otherwise its like one blind man describing the appearance of an object to another blind man which the first blind man himself only learned about through the description of others. In such a situation the chance of being mistaken, deluded and related failures go up drastically.
>>18174238> Even your listing of those traditions as something very similar looks weird - these traditions are in conflict with each other.Obviously, nobody denies that including the Traditionalists, but when it comes to esoterism and inner spiritual realization and transcending the mundane human condition there start to be overwhelming commonalities between all of them
>>18174241> Catholic orders still exists and soThey are often focused on things like charity work and education, when they are focused on spirituality it tends to be more of the passive prayer-focused type of spirituality that Guenon describes as ‘Mysticism’ and which is heavily sentimentality-laden in contrast to ‘Metaphysical Realization’ which is essentially active and not passive. This kind of passive spirituality is rarely radically transformative and rarely results in someone attaining a radically-altered different state of being where one has transcended all of ones former limitations. In ‘active’ realization you actively do the work and thereby produce said transformation yourself, or as a result of your efforts (which does not rule out the involvement of a higher principle)
>>18174264> You go to hell if you don't believe in their religion according to their holy book the quran and it is described there as the stereotype of the fiery torturous hell.You are not actually required to believe in every tiny little dogma 100% literally or to take every Quranic description literally btw, thats a common misconception.Islam has along history of sects interpreting various parts of the Quran and its teachings figuratively. As long as you believe in tawheed, prophethood and the six pillars of faith and practice the five pillars (different from the previous pillars) and avoid the prohibited actions then you are still by definition a faithful muslim even if you interpret various Islam teachings and parts of the Quran as figerative, as have many types of muslims throughout history.
>>18174300> Why weren't personal prayer and participation in the liturgy sufficient for Guenon?It doesn’t resort in the sort of radical spiritual transformation that is basically enlightenment, people do those their entire lives and still commonly suffer from common psychological, emotional and existential ills in many cases
>>18174339>In Christianity mankind does not have a direct connection to God outside of physical institutions akin to JudaismWhat do you mean? Prayer isn't a path to God? Doesn't the Islam Guénon speaks of require physical institutions (Sufi orders)?>God speaks through your consciousHow Guenonian is this position?>>18174358>I am ultimately just answering why Christian doctrinal teaching is difficult to mesh with TraditionalismBut I still don't understand the basis for this point of view. Islam and Judaism are no better than Christianity in the aspects you write about.
>>18174368>The closest thing in Christianity appears to be eastern orthodox theosis, but its debatable to what extent this results in the same sort of transformative realizationIsn't it questionable to claim that Sufism and Buddhism lead to such realization? Especially since you personally haven't achieved it. It's equally questionable to claim the equivalence of Sufism and Buddhism, as if they lead to the same results. Do Muslims and Buddhists themselves agree on this? Tibetan Buddhism is extremely hostile to Islam, as is set forth in the Kalachakra teachings.>The way people wrote about what it was like to be in his presence could be interpreted as suggesting thatWhere can I read about this? It seems Schuon was disappointed by his meeting with Guenon.
>>18174372>It refers to the inner secretive teachings of a religionWhy must they be secret? Why can't they be achieved through more widespread and open (to community members) practices (liturgy).Isn't the demand for secrecy a consequence of the elitism and exoticism inherent in the occultist circles in which Guenon's views were formed?>If he wants to transcend the ills of the normal human condition and reach spiritual perfection and complete spiritual fulfillment in this very lifeWe know of Christian saints who attained great heights of spiritual realization. Why wasn't Guenon interested in this experience, instead seeking exotic traditions?
>>18174375>there start to be overwhelming commonalities between all of themIsn't this one of the most subtle of delusions?
>>18174385>They are often focused on things like charity work and educationWhy can't spiritual realization be achieved through this? Why is it precisely the recitation of mantras and physical movements that elevates the soul, but not helping others? I see Christian charity as a form of all-encompassing worship of God, including those forms that occultists find unattractive. Liturgy, prayer, meditation on Scripture, communication with a spiritual father, helping others, good deeds—why can't these become the path to true spiritual realization?>when they are focused on spirituality it tends to be more of the passive prayer-focused type of spirituality that Guenon describes as ‘Mysticism’ and which is heavily sentimentality-ladenWhat exactly did he mean and how is Sufism different? How is Sufi dhikr better than the prayer practices of Hesychasts?>in contrast to ‘Metaphysical Realization’ which is essentially active and not passiveChristianity teaches about unseen warfare. Prayer is not a passive, but an active spiritual endeavor.
>>18174401>people do those their entire lives and still commonly suffer from common psychological, emotional and existential ills in many casesIf Guenon achieved spiritual enlightenment, it's not evident in his letters or biography. How can we know whether his path was ultimately the right one?Many Christian saints were happy and joyful. A huge number of people overcome all the illnesses you listed through participation in the liturgy. But if they have not yet achieved this, is this an argument against following the commandments of Christ (to partake of His Body and Blood), if they partake of the sacrament worthily?
>>18174988>What do you mean? Prayer isn't a path to God?Prayer is, but the Catholic church deemed that it must go through a priest to be considered valid, Orthodox and even some Protestant groups have the same view. >Doesn't the Islam Guénon speaks of require physical institutions (Sufi orders)?It's more a master than an institution. The master simply exists to guide the follower into harnessing his own potential. I don't think Christianity or any group is fully void of of divine knowledge, but Christianity for most of it's formative history was based on saying that objective reality can only be decided by an institution and that God actually does not connect through people's conscious. >How Guenonian is this position?He talks about symbols and their ability to transcend boundaries and provide the explanation to the universe at an instinctual level. I admittedly was being shorthanded on his position.>Why must they be secret? Why can't they be achieved through more widespread and open (to community members) practices (liturgy).The truth is hard to take in for many and cannot be forced. It requires a desire to join and a sacrifice of one's ego in-order to be open to his true nature. It doesn't help when it's publicly displayed and many rulers saw these esoteric teachings as a threat to their legitimacy.
>>18175008> Isn't it questionable to claim that Sufism and Buddhism lead to such realization? Not at all, they both describe transcending ones former egoistic identity and its associated limitations and sufferings in a highly similar way, even though both occur within the context of their own respective understanding of metaphysics. Sufism speaks of fana or the extinction of oneself in God and even speaks of a fana of one’s fana where this becomes ones natural effortless mode and Buddhism similarly talks about reaching a natural and spontaneous egoless perfection. >Especially since you personally haven't achieved it. I’m just answering what the view of the Traditionalist School/Guenon on the matter is, my own views or experience is entirely besides the point>Do Muslims and Buddhists themselves agree on this? They dont study each others religion and had little intellectual interaction historically, there is no shortage of Muslim mystic authors throughout history that have taken perennialist attitudes towards other religions that they were more familiar with though, chatgpt will name over a dozen for you if you ask it about that topic. Some premodern Buddhist authors have endorsed perennialist ideas also although they were ignorant of Islam.>Tibetan Buddhism is extremely hostile to Islam, as is set forth in the Kalachakra teachings.It doest explicitly identify Islam in the Kalachakra actually although thats likely what its referring to, in any case you can find tribalistic attitudes including hostility to the outgroup in many religions, but thats likely doesnt negate the fact that when it comes to enlightenment and spiritual realization and transcending the egoistic identity they start to converge. In many cases the people who author texts exhibiting that kind of tribal hostility were simply ignorant of the inner spiritual teachings of the other religions they were hostile towards and they only knew its outward manifestations
>>18175008> Where can I read about this? Martin Linge described him as having a ‘luminous presence’
>>18168332>Even if such a thing existed, thinking it is some conscious being instead of an impersonal force is beyond retarded. You are a Spinozian retard (aka counter-initiation jew), leave this thread.
>>18175256but what about Hitler? What about muh niggers? What's my phenotype? What phenotype is this?
>>18168382Epicurus is quite literally a midwit who trained himself not to think, because thinking causes stress and stress is unnecessary pain.
>>18175031> Why must they be secret?They dont have to be, in the east the metaphysical doctrines themselves are often not secret but only certain methods of practice are, and the reason for secrecy in that case may be to ensure accuracy i.e. that its only transmitted to qualified students by qualified teachers, thus ensuring that wherever its found its the genuine thing. In the west secrecy was often required because the more narrow and dogmatic-attitude associated with Abrahamic faiths means that there was a greater chance of violent opposition or great controversy arising if it was talked about too openly, the average person in many cases in the western context may not be ready for such a great shock to their worldview.>Why can't they be achieved through more widespread and open (to community members) practices (liturgy).Already answered this, liturgy doesn’t reliably produce radical spiritual transformation that is equivalent to enlightenment, 99.99999% of Christian DONT find that liturgy makes them permanently overcome all psychological, emotional and existential ills and its very dishonest to pretend or insinuate otherwise.>Isn't the demand for secrecy a consequence of the elitism and exoticism inherent in the occultist circles in which Guenon's views were formed?No, thats a dumb question, its well-documented all through history wherever esotericism is found, just read any book on the subject >We know of Christian saints who attained great heights of spiritual realization. Why wasn't Guenon interested in Because those are very very exceptional examples and Christianity offers no valid or time-tested path of initiation for the spiritually inclined person to attain those same heights, there is only the vague remote possibility that if you devote your whole life to the religion that something ‘might’ happen but there is no chance of being reliably instructed in how to reliably attain that state by someone who has reached it themselves.
>>18175037> Isn't this one of the most subtle of delusions?Its not a delusion but its an obvious fact which can be verified by comparing what their texts say about the subject
>>18175061> Why can't spiritual realization be achieved through this?Because its outward focused and doesnt involve transcending the normal egoistic identity and its suffering> Why is it precisely the recitation of mantras and physical movements that elevates the soul, but not helping others? I didnt say that, in the eastern traditions those are not an end in themselves and dont automatically produce such a result on their own but are typically only means employed as part of an introspective process that involves other things, but its true that both of those are inward focused and can help enable inner spiritual transformation when employed under the right circumstances and guidances >Liturgy, prayer, meditation on Scripture, communication with a spiritual father, helping others, good deeds—why can't these become the path to true spiritual realization?They can help but usually are not sufficient in themselves, since they dont center around transcending the egoistic identity and permanently overcoming all suffering, they dont produce a radical inner transformation but are oriented towards other things. Only inwardly directed things can reliably produce this, full stop. Its not impossible that outwardly directed things can produce this but its extremely unusual and its not reliable and you cannot be reliably be personally taught how to effect such a radical transformation through outwardly directed activities.>How is Sufi dhikr better than the prayer practices of Hesychasts?I didnt say they were different, but the Hesychast practices is very different from what 99.99% of Christians do which is kind of proving my point
>>18175061>what exactly did he mean and how is sufism different Have you even read him? These are very low-quality questions, Im just going to give you what chatgpt says which is accurate and not bother spoonfeeding youWhat Guénon Means by “Sentimental Mysticism”For Guénon, “mysticism” in the usual modern Western sense means:A. Emotional, psychological, or affective statesFeelings of devotion, rapture, ecstasy“spiritual experiences” understood as intense emotionPsychological consolations, feelings of union, etc.B. Passivity rather than methodMysticism (as he uses the term) is something that “happens to” a person—an unpredictable grace, usually without structure or conscious discipline.C. No doctrine, no method, no initiationMost people Guénon calls “mystics” have:no metaphysical trainingno initiatic transmissionno symbolic or contemplative methodno integration into a traditionThus mysticism is natural, individual, and psychological, not ontological.D. Not reliableEmotional states vary and can be misleading; they prove nothing about metaphysical truth.Guénon often says:the sentimental mystic is at the mercy of his own imagination.
>>181750612. What Guénon Means by “Metaphysical Realization”Metaphysical realization = realizing the Universal, the Intellect, or Supra-individual states of being.Its key traits:A. Based on Pure Intellect (al-ʿAql), not emotion“Intellect” for Guénon is not discursive reasoning but direct noetic insight—gnosis (maʿrifah).B. Requires initiation (tarīqah)One must enter an initiatic chain (silsilah) because metaphysical realization is:supra-individualobjectivetransmissible only via a real lineageC. Requires method (tariqa spiritual technique)Spiritual realization is methodical, not spontaneous.This means disciplined practice (dhikr, contemplation, symbolic meditation).D. Development of states of beingTrue realization involves:integration of the subtle (“psychic”) statestransition to supersensoryrealization of the Universal Man (al-Insān al-Kāmil)even the nondual Supreme IdentityThese stages are systematic and structured—not random mystical emotions.E. Realization is not a feelingIt is an ontological transformation.
>>18175061Why Guénon Identifies Sufism With Metaphysical RealizationGuénon believed Sufism (as traditionally practiced) perfectly embodied the requirements for authentic metaphysics:A. It is initiaticSufism is not a theology or philosophy. It is:a tariqa (path)requiring bayʿah (initiation)connected to a silsilah (chain back to the Prophet)This is essential for Guénon: no initiation = no realization.B. It possesses a complete metaphysical doctrineSufi metaphysics (especially Ibn ʿArabi, al-Jili, Qunawi) articulates:unity of Being (wahdat al-wujūd)the stages of existencethe supra-individual statesthe doctrine of the Universal Mansymbolism of the cosmosIt's a fully developed esoteric metaphysics—not psychological spirituality.C. It has a complete methodology (tariqa sulūk)Sufi practice includes:dhikr (invocation)fikr (intellectual contemplation)muraqaba (interior vigilance)symbolic meditationdiscipline under a shaykhThis aligns exactly with Guénon’s principle of effective method.D. It separates the spiritual from the emotionalReal Sufism explicitly warns against:spiritual delusions (talbis)emotional intoxication (wajd without sobriety)visionary phenomenapsychological “states” mistaken for realizationGuenon sees this as evidence of its metaphysical rigor.E. The ultimate aim of Sufism = Supreme Identity (al-Huwiyya)The highest Sufi doctrine is realization of:al-Haqīqa al-Muhammadiyyaal-Insān al-Kāmilfanāʾ (extinction of the ego) and baqā’ (subsistence in God)the Supreme IdentityThis corresponds exactly to what Guénon calls “the realization of the Self” and “Universal Consciousness.”Thus, he sees Sufism as a living, complete, effective metaphysical tradition—not sentimental religiosity.
>>18175061> How is Sufi dhikr better than the prayer practices of Hesychasts?Hesychasm is the ‘exception that proves the rule’ in regard to most of Christianity> Christianity teaches about unseen warfare. Prayer is not a passive, but an active spiritual endeavor.Its not active in an intellectual sense, i.e. one actively bringing about the radical transformation through direct insight/intuition
>>18175084> A huge number of people overcome all the illnesses you listed through participation in the liturgy.In comparison to the number of Christians who participate in liturgy and dont thereby attain a permanent overcoming of all suffering that group is extremely small, moreover no Church has a codified method that can be taught like an initiation to overcome all suffering through liturgy
>>18175315In René Guénon’s view, modern Christianity, especially in its dominant Western forms, fails to meet the criteria for authentic metaphysical realization because it has become diluted, materialistic, and disconnected from its true initiatic roots. Guénon’s critique of modern Christianity is sharp and focused on a few core points that stem from his broader critique of Western civilization. These include the loss of true esotericism, the rise of sentimentality over intellectual rigor, and the shift away from traditional metaphysical doctrines. Below, I’ll break down these points in more detail, showing how and why modern Christianity fails to fulfill the criteria for metaphysical realization that Guénon associates with authentic, initiatic traditions like Sufism.1. The Loss of Initiatic Tradition and Esoteric KnowledgeIn Guénon’s view, Christianity’s esoteric dimension, or the traditional wisdom passed down through a chain of initiates, has been lost or repressed. While early Christianity (especially in the first few centuries) did have elements of hidden or mystical teachings (often referred to as the Gnostic or esoteric traditions), these were eventually suppressed, particularly by the establishment of the Catholic Church in the 4th century under Emperor Constantine.The core of Guénon’s critique is that:Christianity, over time, became a religion of external rites and dogmas, focusing on moral teachings, rituals, and beliefs that were meant to guide adherents in a devotional way, but lacked true spiritual transmission.
>>18175386Christianity, in its mainstream forms, became a religion of exoteric doctrine—a set of teachings accessible to the masses without the need for initiation, discipline, or spiritual practice of the kind found in the traditional, metaphysical schools.By contrast, in Sufism (and other traditional metaphysical paths like Advaita Vedanta), the initiate is introduced to a series of teachings and practices that are not merely external but aimed at direct metaphysical realization. This is the key difference: Christianity has largely been stripped of its initiatic roots and has become more focused on salvation through faith and moral behavior rather than a direct metaphysical path to union with the Divine.2. Sentimentality Over Intellectual RigorOne of Guénon’s most persistent criticisms of modern Christianity is that it has become overly sentimental and emotion-driven, rather than grounded in true intellectual or metaphysical understanding. This critique aligns with his general concern about the decline of true spirituality in the modern world.Emotionalism and devotionalism have replaced rigorous metaphysical teachings. This manifests in affective mysticism, where Christianity’s focus has shifted toward personal salvation, feelings of devotion, ecstasy, and piety, rather than ontological realization of the Divine or the Absolute.For Guénon, this type of mysticism is not authentic spiritual realization, but merely psychological affectation or emotional indulgence. The feelings of rapture, ecstasy, and spiritual consolation that many people experience within Christianity are, for him, sentimentally based—they do not lead to true metaphysical knowledge or transcendence.In this way, modern Christianity's spiritual practices have, in Guénon’s eyes, become closer to subjective emotional experiences (sentimentality) than to objective, intellectual, and spiritual realization.
>>181753873. The Substitution of Faith for KnowledgeAnother crucial aspect of Guénon’s critique of modern Christianity is its emphasis on faith over direct knowledge (gnosis). Guénon distinguished between faith as a form of belief, often tied to emotional or moral qualities, and knowledge as direct metaphysical insight or realization.Modern Christianity has largely focused on faith in doctrines (e.g., the Trinity, the Resurrection, etc.), while neglecting the deeper intellectual knowledge of metaphysical truths.For Guénon, true religion must be rooted in a knowledge of universal metaphysical principles, which is passed down through an initiatic process and allows for direct access to the Divine. Faith, while it may be part of the process, is not enough by itself to bring about the transformation required for metaphysical realization.He contrasts this with Sufism, which emphasizes the development of intuitive knowledge (maʿrifah) and the direct experience of the Divine through practice and contemplation. In Sufism, this knowledge is not simply a belief in doctrines but a transformative experience.
>>181753894. The Distortion of Christian Doctrine (Creation vs. the Divine)Guénon also criticizes how modern Christianity has distorted its cosmological and ontological teachings, particularly regarding the nature of the Divine and Creation.Dualistic Thinking: Christianity, especially after the influence of Augustinianism and later Protestantism, developed a dualistic outlook that sees God as entirely separate from His creation. This separation makes the Divine unreachable except through faith or divine grace, but not through knowledge or metaphysical realization. For Guénon, this is a limitation that prevents people from achieving a direct realization of the Unity of existence.By contrast, in Sufism and other esoteric traditions, the unity of existence (wahdat al-wujūd) is emphasized—God is not separate from creation, but immanent within it. This realization is central to metaphysical understanding, and it is through such a perspective that true spiritual knowledge can be attained.Creation as Manifestation: Christianity’s doctrines of creation ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) and the fall of man emphasize a break or rupture between the Divine and the world. In contrast, in Sufism, the world is seen as a manifestation of the Divine, and the ultimate goal is to see the Divine in all things (seeing through the world to the Divine). For Guénon, Christianity’s dualistic separation hinders the realization of the metaphysical unity of existence.
>>18168332>muh asian bugmenholy kek, the sheer lack of self-awareness on display
>>181753915. The Historical Process and the Impact of ModernityGuénon argues that modernity itself has led to a degeneration of Christian spirituality. He believes that the rise of rationalism, scientific materialism, and individualism—hallmarks of modern Western thought—have hollowed out traditional religions, including Christianity, leaving them without their original metaphysical and initiatic core.The Protestant Reformation, in Guénon’s eyes, was particularly disastrous for Christian metaphysics because it emphasized a personal, subjective approach to religion (faith alone) over any kind of hierarchical, traditional, or esoteric approach to knowledge.As a result, modern Christianity has become disconnected from its metaphysical roots, turning into a moral system for personal salvation, rather than a path of realization and transformation of the soul through knowledge and initiation.6. Why Sufism is the Superior PathGuénon argues that Sufism, unlike modern Christianity, is rooted in an unbroken tradition of initiation and metaphysical knowledge. He sees Sufism as one of the few traditions that has preserved the full initiatic chain and its doctrinal purity, largely because of its strong connection to Islamic metaphysical principles and spiritual practices. In Sufism, the esoteric (hidden) teachings are actively passed on from master to disciple, and the path to realization involves the intellectual development of the higher faculties and a direct experience of the Divine.For Guénon, this is what separates authentic metaphysical realization from the sentimentality of modern Christianity, where the mystical and metaphysical aspects have been largely lost in favor of subjective emotional experience.
>>18175393To sum up:Sentimental mysticism and emotional devotion have replaced true metaphysical understanding in modern Christianity.Christianity has lost its esoteric, initiatic dimension, focusing instead on faith and moral teachings.Modern Christianity is too dualistic, emphasizing the separation between God and creation, rather than recognizing the unity of existence.The historical developments of Protestantism, rationalism, and modern secularism have hollowed out Christianity’s traditional metaphysical coreIn contrast, Guénon sees Sufism as a superior path because it maintains a living tradition of initiation, doctrine, and metaphysical realization, all of which modern Christianity has lost.
According to René Guénon, there are several important reasons why Christian liturgy and sacraments, as they commonly exist, do not satisfy the criteria for metaphysical realization in the way that he conceives initiation. Below I lay out the key points, drawing on Guénon’s metaphysics and doctrine of initiation, and then explain why liturgical/sacramental participation falls short, from his perspective.Guénon’s View of Initiation & Metaphysical RealizationTo understand the issue, it helps first to clarify what Guénon means by “initiation” and “realization”:Identity of Knowing and BeingGuénon holds that true metaphysics realizes the identity of knowing and being: it’s not just intellectual knowledge, but an existential transformation. Transmission of Spiritual InfluenceFor Guénon, initiation is not merely a symbolic rite; it must transmit a spiritual influence (“une influence non-humaine”) through a legitimate chain, from a master or tradition that connects beyond the merely human order.Qualification / ReceptivityThere must be qualification — a candidate must have a kind of receptivity for initiation. This isn't about being “passive,” but about being able to receive this supra-individual or non-human influence.Effective vs. Virtual InitiationGuénon distinguishes between virtual initiation (a kind of preliminary passage) and effective initiation (a deeper, transformative realization). Non-human / Supra-human OriginThe source of initiation, in Guénon’s sense, is not purely human; the person conferring initiation is a “link in the chain,” not the origin.Total Spiritual RealizationThe ultimate aim is not just moral or religious improvement, but a total “deliverance” or “supreme identity” — a realization of higher states of being, beyond the ordinary human ego.
>>18175467Why Christian Liturgy & Sacraments, According to Guénon, Do NOT Fulfill These CriteriaAccording to Guénon, Christian sacraments (such as baptism, the Eucharist, etc.) fail to meet the criteria for true metaphysical initiation for several interrelated reasons:Public / Exoteric CharacterGuénon criticizes Christian rites for being public and open “to all without distinction.”This universality is, for him, incompatible with an esoteric initiation, which in his view should be reserved to those who are qualified and receptive.Because such rites are not restricted, they lack the esoteric (hidden, inner) dimension that is essential in Guénon’s conception.Lack of “Qualification” for Initiatic GraceSacraments in mainstream Christianity (especially infant baptism) often do not require a conscious “qualification” or mature receptivity; believers (or infants) are simply baptized or confirmed without necessarily having the inner readiness or “esoteric” capacity. Guénon sees this as problematic.Thus, even if a sacrament transmits some spiritual influence (which Guénon does not entirely deny), the lack of qualification means it does not amount to effective initiation.Limited Role of Spiritual Influence (“Grace”)Guénon acknowledges that Christian “grace” (e.g., Holy Spirit) may “descend upon a person … in a certain way,” but he argues that this does not grant entry to higher metaphysical states. In his framework, the influence transmitted via Christian sacraments is not sufficient to effect the kind of transformative “realization” he describes as the goal of true initiation.
>>18175473Loss of Initiatory Character in ChristianityGuénon argues that, historically, Christianity originally may have had a more esoteric or initiatory dimension, but that over time the sacraments became “exteriorized.” In his view, the sacraments have thus “lost their initiatory character” in their current exoteric, institutional form.This means that, for Guénon, the institutional Church no longer functions as a true initiatic body in the esoteric sense.Need for a “Regular Initiatic Organization”Guénon emphasizes the necessity of an authentic initiatic organization: a lineage or tradition that preserves the transmission of spiritual influence.He holds that traditional organizations (e.g., certain esoteric or initiation-based orders) are required to provide “effective initiation,” something he thinks is separate from ordinary Christian structures.From his perspective, while some Christian organizations (especially in the past) might have had more of this, by his time they largely no longer did, so sacraments alone are insufficient.Transposition of Sacraments for InitiatesInterestingly, Guénon does allow that for people who have already received initiation by some other, true initiatic form, Christian sacraments might be “transposed … onto a different level” and used as supports in their further initiatic work. But this is conditional: for him, sacraments don’t themselves constitute the core initiation; they are supports when the real initiation has already occurred elsewhere.
>>18175478Summing Up: Why Participation Isn’t Enough (in Guénon’s View)Putting it all together:Guénon defines metaphysical realization as something that goes much deeper than religious observance: it requires transformation through a non-human, supra-individual “influence” transmitted by a real initiatic chain.Christian sacraments, in his estimation, are largely exoteric, public, and institutional, lacking the necessary “qualification” and inner receptivity to facilitate true initiation in his technical, metaphysical sense.Without that kind of initiation, participating in liturgy or receiving sacraments does not, for Guénon, provide access to the “higher states” of being that characterize his notion of spiritual realization.
Traditionalist Catholics claim that Guén clouded his mind with «initiations» into various dubious organizations. This appears to be true.
>>18174397>You are not actually required to believe in every tiny little dogma 100% literally or to take every Quranic description literally btw, thats a common misconception.Heaven and hell are mentioned several times throughout the quran in almost every sura. This is one of the few concepts inside their book that is absolute clear within it. Hell is more often than not mentioned alongisde disbelievers there. It's obvious to me that these passages were Muhammad or whoever wrote it seething about people not believing in it. One sura a short one at the end is about Abu Lahab who according to the islamic historical claims is Muhammad's uncle. That sura describe him and his wife in hell. It just shows that it is about Muhammad seething at his uncle and wishing him the worst. How can there bd any interpretations regarding this when it is one of the few topic that the quran is clear about?
>>18175582>How can there bd any interpretations regarding this when it is one of the few topic that the quran is clear about?Everyone who has a different interpretation has their own reason for doing so, it’s a historical fact though that throughout history various types of Muslims have interpreted various parts of the descriptions of heaven and hells as figurative including mainstream sufis, multiple different kinds of Shia groups even believed in the transmigration of souls although that is a small minority and a controversial view. Im not Muslim and I dont care about justifying the views of any of these people. I’m aware that some of Guenon’s views would be considered highly controversial among some if not many Muslims, but I dont care and at the end of the day that is not a challenge to their coherency.
>>18165169>Is paganism impossible according to Guenon?>In his first work on Hinduism, he argues that Hindu idolatry is the worship of various aspects of the Absolute.If you choose to interpret the worship of multiple deities as the worship of a single deity then yes, you can indeed claim that polytheism doesn't exist.
>>18175563>Traditionalist Catholicswho are no longer allowed to even attend traditional latin mass unless their local bishop takes the optional courtesy of it being permitted as a special non-parish location, kek
>>18165316yes, yes, it's only a question of which bullshit one believes. not believing any of them is inconceivable.
>>18165169>>18168233>>18168222>>18173728Guenon was everything he hated: a midwit intellectual. Imagine converting to pisslam of all creeds and thinking yourself enlightened to any extent.
>>18168222>Basically, polytheism is a degeneration from the primordial principal unity, and is born mostly due to ignorance of its exoteric adherents. The many pagan "gods" are originally supposed to be corresponded to "angels" in Abrahamic religions.abrahamic religions are newcomers. people at catal huyuk and gobekli tepe had religion because the human mind is feeble like that. and these religions were unapologetically polytheistic, there's no trace of them descending from some earlier monotheistic belief.
>>18175797They are real murids of their sheikhs. I respect them more than the apostate Guenon.
>>18176366so sad to be born an atomized urbanite modern man devoid of spirituality, huh
