>Only Eastern Orthodoxy can give you the epistemic justification of why mathematics functions in our earthly life.>Every Christian not in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate is damned.What is his problem?
>>18171158He's a debatebro first and christian second. Remember, this is the guy who went from arguing that he cannot even in principle possibly be wrong about calvinism being correct to arguing that he cannot even in principle possibly be wrong about eastern orthodoxy being correct. Just think about that for a second.
>>18171186Was he already that philosophically developed when he was a Prot/Calvinist?
>>18171205His TAG is imported from his calvinist days lol.
>>18171205>>18171209Didn't he stay orthodox for more than a decade right now?
>>18171158>What is his problem?I don't even know if he believes half the shit he says. I hope he doesn't. Orthodoxy isn't there to give epistemic justifications or to help your understanding of politics.
>>18171158>What is his problem?His identity as an edgy right wing ideologue takes precedence over everything and his identification as an "Orthodox Christian" flows downstream from his own identification with it as a "Based Traditional Philosophy." The real issue is not him necessarily, individuals are free to identify with whatever they wish for whatever reason they wish to, but that he is sort of emblematic of a greater issue which you can manifestly see even on this board: that there are vast swaths of young men who are "converting" (ostensibly) to Christianity not out of any real conviction or belief within the system, but because it serves their rhetorical goals of being a "Based Defender of Tradition" and representing themselves as Christian fulfills this as a sort of totem/signifier of an age when European/American/"Western" culture was at its material zenith and that if they wear the clothes, say the right things, and signal hard enough it'll somehow manifest itself again.This phenomena is distinct from the Evangelical trend, which in its extremes is either a feel-good barely-religious trend for women or a bizarre death cult trying to trigger the Eschaton. What I've described above is more or less confined to the Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholic Church.
>>18171374>bizarre death cult trying to trigger the EschatonThis is why I'm Evangelical.
>>18171158Who do you think he played most in mortal kombat? For me it's subzero
>>18171560That or Raiden
>>18171374I disagree, he used to be a Calvinist and then became Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy. Usually tradlarpers go straight from atheism/agnosticism to some catholicism or Orthodoxy.
>>18171820Like I said:>he is sort of emblematic of a greater issue which you can manifestly see even on this board: that there are vast swaths of young men who are "converting" (ostensibly) to Christianity I'm sure that Dyer is a believer in whatever faith he has, but it's more that he is a symbol of a "youth awakening" which is nothing but vapor and ultimately serving the ideological ends of those guys versus anything really substantial.
>>18171374>that there are vast swaths of young men who are "converting" (ostensibly) to Christianity not out of any real conviction or belief within the system, but because it serves their rhetorical goals of being a "Based Defender of Tradition" and representing themselves as Christian fulfills this as a sort of totem/signifier of an age when European/American/"Western" culture was at its material zenith and that if they wear the clothes, say the right things, and signal hard enough it'll somehow manifest itself again.I've been inquiring at an orthodox church since the start of the year. Fortunately, I went to the church before I had ever heard the name "Jay Dyer." I've only watched him a little bit. He seems pretty genuine, but very autistic. He's literally who Redeemed Zoomer will be in 20 years.The guys who are like this tend to not be regular attendees, but I've definitely met some. They come off as larpers and then stop going when they find out the catholic churches have more single 18-30 women.I've been pretty into theology, the main hold ups right now are the church's exclusionary claims and the perpetual virginity, which was always plausible for me as a Lutheran but idk how I feel about the Protoevangelium of James and the like.
>>18171866>I've been inquiring at an orthodox church since the start of the year. Fortunately, I went to the church before I had ever heard the name "Jay Dyer." I've only watched him a little bit. He seems pretty genuine, but very autistic. He's literally who Redeemed Zoomer will be in 20 years.>The guys who are like this tend to not be regular attendees, but I've definitely met some. They come off as larpers and then stop going when they find out the catholic churches have more single 18-30 women.I went to an Orthodox service for a while out of curiosity. I do like the iconography and all the incense, and it makes sense in my mind as ritualism, but I encountered a lot of this mindset in the guys my age who I would talk to at the coffee hour. Even the priest, who was I'd guess in his 50s, like this as well to a certain degree. All of it felt like identitarian posturing and trying to be as "based" as they possibly could. Much of the conversations I recall having went something like this. Now there were a lot of good people there, even them, don't get me wrong, but I'm incredibly suspect that the large swaths of "dude look how CHRISTIAN GenZ is!" is actually real and not just a mirage boosted by the fact that the country is going to shit and young guys, dissatisfied with the political angle, want to use religion to try to force their ideology on the country.
>>18171158Most orthodox influencers in the West are paid Russian shills. If you want to be a Christian traditionalist in the western hemisphere, be Catholic.
>>18171873Interesting. The "based" guys don't stay for more than a few weeks on my experience. It's a convert majority church but they're all really kind, genuine people. There's one young guy who has a real hateboner for Israel, but he's the odd one out. The priest here is slavic (not Russian, and not ROCOR) so he doesn't really talk about anything politics aside for praying for the starving people in Gaza and briefly speaking against dispensationalism in one homily. We also have a sizable minority of Ethiopians and Mexicans who come to our church, so it's probably too diverse for white nationalists to stay here lol. I think part of the issue is that as mainline protestant churches embrace their lesbian bishops, the more conservative protestants dip for catholic/orthodox churches because they won't change their dogmas simply because it's the current year. >but I'm incredibly suspect that the large swaths of "dude look how CHRISTIAN GenZ is!" is actually real and not just a mirage boosted by the fact that the country is going to shit and young guys, dissatisfied with the political angle, want to use religion to try to force their ideology on the country.I'm not sure, I think there's a search for meaning, especially post-covid, and that the counter-culture has turned "becoming religious" in the wake of Christopher Hitchens and New Atheism. I don't know if the trend will continue though. Catholic growth is driven entirely by conversion, but at the same time they're bleeding cradles. I think it was Trent Horn who said that for every Catholic convert they get, they lose 8 cradles. And I highly doubt most of them are becoming protestant or orthodox. While I find my orthodox church pretty conservative, I don't see much political gain out of it. Most of them talk about how it's great that orthodoxy in America is so decentralized and that there is no American Patriarchate, because if there were it'd just be a puppet of the CIA.
>>18171980I feel like my life would be a lot easier if I could choose to be Catholic, but I just don't think it's true. Vatican II is indefensible.If you're that worried about Russia, why not go to a Greek church?
>>18171988Wouldn't being a puppet of the CIA be the trad option for Orthodox? They've always been that way
>>18172079Depends on who you're talking to. Some will say that's catholic as fuck because the CIA controls the papacy, others will agree with you and tell you about how great a CIA puppet the EP is
>>18171158>>Every Christian not in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate is damned.Please provide a source for this quote. Even the Moscow Patriarchate doesn't claim anything like that.
>>18171244He has been Orthodox for at least 12 years.
>>18171252Orthodoxy provides a holistic worldview, including a political orientation. Read Alexander Schmemann's books to understand this better.
I'm interested in the influences that lead people to Orthodoxy.Michael S. Heiser. Those interested in a supernatural worldview are beginning to explore the books and podcasts of Stephen DeYoung.James B. Jordan and David Chilton. Biblical typology, partial preterism and the liturgical understanding of the Scripture. Jordan and Chilton frequently cite Orthodox authors in their books. An example of Jordan's influence on conversion to Orthodoxy - https://web.archive.org/web/20181217083016/https://kabane52.tumblr.com/post/161584184310/books-for-learning-biblical-theologyRene Guenon. People are interested in traditionalism, then discover Seraphim Rose and Jonathan Pageau.Critique of Thomism. Western discovery of Palamism. See Perry Robinson's blog - https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/
Also the ideas of Maximus the Confessor. Through Hans Urs von Balthasar and other scholars.The adoption of presuppositionalism by Orthodox apologists.I mentioned Jordan and Chilton (I forgot to mention Leithart); these authors are somewhat connected to presuppositionalism as espoused by Bahnsen and Frame. This explains the huge number of former Calvinists among the Orthodox. By the way, some overcame Calvinism by reading Heiser - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A0_g73ejAMSo, in addition to socio-political reasons, there are also philosophical and theological ones.
>>18172309If people read Guénon and become Orthodox they're deeply unwell, all orthodox churches are deeply degenerate
>>18171158>when you jorkin it and assign significancekek
>>18172320Are you familiar with Sufism?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ3Z7Qcv2N8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyj-SGzeKfQhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xkgknlQh6U
>>18172320How is it that Orthodox countries are the most homophobic, while the Islamic world still maintains bacha bazi (khawal, köçek, etc.) practices?Contemplating beardless boys was common in traditional Islam.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazar_ila%27l-murd
>>18172343>>18172352>Islam out of nowhereRussiaboo teenagers, go touch some grass
>>18171158He's autistic and retarded
>>18171980If you want to believe the bible, be Reformed.
>>18171158>Only Eastern Orthodoxy can give you the epistemic justification of why mathematics functions in our earthly life.Anyone care to explain his reasoning.
>>18172547Part 1: poorly copy the transcendental argument, prove you never understood itPart 2: misapply it to a bishop in Russia
>>18172363Which tradition should choose 'true' Guenonist?Also what is your own tradition?
>>18172309>Jonathan Pageau.The biggest pseud in existence.
>>18172697Why do you think so?
>>18172707I think his "muh symbols" view is a distortion and intellectual posturing without any merit. He should stick to icons.
As someone who was raised Finnish Orthodox, the American trad orthobros just feel really strange to me. Maybe it is because I was literally born into it, but for me the faith just feels rather mundane and the certain social conservatism about it is just self-explanatory. I am not really involved with church most of the time these days, but I have heard that there has been some cases of Finnish zoomers falling for the online memes, and upon joining the Finnish Orthodox church they are more or less disappointed to find it filled with mostly similar conservative leaning normalfags they would find in most churches instead of some mystical and zealous trad cult they might have been expecting.
>>18172720Are your ancestors Russians or russified Baltic Germans or are they ethnic Finns?
>>18172748Both Baltic Finn and Karelian.
>>18171374I agree but why is this a bad thing? I consider myself Christian, but I see nothing wrong with importing Law Of Attraction New Thought theosophy into Catholic or Orthodox frameworks, though I'm probably in the minority here.
>>18171995>Vatican II is indefensible.How so?
>>18172871>Law Of Attraction New ThoughtI wouldn't be surprised if some church father came up with something similar in a Christian context.
I get why people would want to find identity through religion, especially in the world today. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but when I look at people like Jay Dyer, Andrew Wilson, Jimbob, etc. who are these Orthobros who don't embody one ounce of Christian living, I start to become wary of the movement as a whole.
>>18171995>Vatican II is indefensible.The people who made-it up at the time certainly didn't think so
>>18173231"The people" at the time weren't working in Christian interests
>>18173237lmaoSo they were just insincere/jews? This is such a terrible explanation for what the people who made Vatican II thought they were doing
Are EO's just Catholics than don't want the accountability that comes with holding to the position that the Pope got a superpower to never be wrong? As EO you don't have to own up to stuff, like the church being a shitshow, as apparently that's expectedAs a Catholic, you have to smile and say it's supposed to be this way
being a Catholic is nice because it's the truth. But EO are pretty close, they're like a brother or sister that still feels hurt after a bad fight. I pray we come back as a family pretty often. Everyone should be Catholic but EO is okay too if you want.
>>18173246They were definitely insincere if you mean in the intent to further Christian interests, yes. Reconciliation has always been a part of Christianity, but never to actively pat them on the ass and bend over for them with a big thumbs up.
>>18173261>As EO you don't have to own up to stuff, like the church being a shitshow, as apparently that's expectedIt's the exact opposite - you actually do get to own up to the church being a shitshow because there is no infallible official CEO who could have prevented it.
>>18173296Do you think there could be a systemic problem with a Church that is in the pocket of the Russian stateHow would you go about fixing that?
>>18173273Catholicism cannot be true, because Vatican II
>>18173314stop getting all your opinions from youtubers
>>18173306I think this has more or less happened. One of the reasons Russian war propaganda is so effective is that there are volumes of Russian, Serbian and Romanian plebs online spending their free time defending muh'Orthodoxy, such as framing every Ukrainian investigation against the famously politicized ROC as "Satanism".I'm in no position to fix neither the Church nor Russia. The best I can do is speak the truth - lies fall apart in time. We didn't "fix" the soviet union either.
>>18173314SSPX exist and is not in schism, merely an irregular position, where all the sacraments they perform are valid but 'illicit'.
>>18173332I just have this insanely strong intuition, that the Church founded by Jesus, would not become a propaganda tool used by the Russian stateAnd by holding to Eastern Orthodoxy, you are supporting that. I would be looking for a different church
>>18173367I had this intuition too before I realized the covenant founded by God fell prey to Phariseism and the majority of the Church founded by Jesus adapted Arianism (around the year 357). I wouldn't find it particularly convincing if someone told me I'm supporting Pharisees and Arian by virtue of remanining Christian and I find it equally unconvincing that I'm to blame for Russians once again strong-arming their priests into submission. And I definitely would not feel convincing telling God "times got tough" when asked why I left his Church.
>>18173400I'm not saying that you are to blame for itI'm just saying that you're supporting it. As in, enabling it, lending it power and credence - being a part of it, even if you're silently protesting
>>18173434Again, I wouldn't find it convincing for Phariseism or Arianism, I don't find it convincing for myself. Genuinely. If you want to show me something I'm not seeing, I'll be glad to look at what credence Russians have by virtue of me being Orthodox that they wouldn't otherwise have.
>>18173336Vatican I says that you must follow both the extraordinary magisterium and the ordinary magisterium teachings of the pope to be in communion. SSPX rejects the ordinary teachings of Vatican II. Therefore, SSPX is in schism. As are the Eastern/Byzantine Catholics by refusing to recite the filioque in the creed.
Jay Dyer is a fucking flat-earther clown
>>18173367>>18173400The difference is that EO as a whole doesn't fail if one patriarchate fails, but the Roman church fails if the pope fails.
>>18173557>you need to say the magic words
>>18171158>Yuuuuup this specific obscure faith is the one true faith of the universal God
>>18174663>obscureThere were more Orthodox Christians than Roman Catholics when Rome declared itself independent.
>>18171158What's with this new trend of guys needing to be spoonfed theology/philosophy? Are there really people who are so convinced by freaks like him, who is an obvious degenerate and associates with freaks like Sam Hyde, that they convert to a religion and listen to every word of his like he's a prophet? Derangement.
>>18174690It's easier to watch 30 youtube videos on something and proclaim yourself an expert than to actually do the research yourself.You think these guys read the Church Fathers? They don't even read the Bible, they just watch youtube videos of people telling them what the church fathers say. /a/ would call them tertiaries, because reading the Church Fathers already makes you a secondary.
>>18174693>It's easier to watch 30 youtube videos on something and proclaim yourself an expert than to actually do the research yourself.It's honestly incredibly tragic that this is the state of even "awakened" young men these days. They have an awareness that something isn't quite right but they still need to be TOLD what to think. I watched a view of Jay Dyer's videos and he comes off like an arrogant prick. Maybe that's the appeal but I don't see how you can agree with him unless you already presuppose the foundations of what he's arguing to be true/correct.
>>1817470695-99% of people simply are not capable of having nuanced opinions on anything. Even fewer people bother to research subjects beyond Youtube videos or content feeds. Only tiny minority that bother to read books, and even then it's mostly popular slop. It's easier to be pick a "team" and be completely passive, watching from the bleachers, and tell yourself you have a non-passive role, than actually putting applying effort.
>>18174735I doubt most of this will have much steam. What happens to all these "based trad Orthodox guys" when they realize they don't actually believe in the religion? Are we going to oscillate back to atheism?
You can read most of the church fathers for free on newadvent. Doesn't matter, most people would rather be taught by a youtuber with a visual aid. But again, these terminally online autists already lack the attention span to read the Bible. I've been guilty of it myself when last night I listened to a lecture from a priest after reading 1 (one) chapter of Romans. But my sorry excuse is that Romans is hard to read.
>>18174760>when they realize they don't actually believe in the religion?More likely they stay because they don't need much to be convinced to stay ("I watched a really good youtube video years ago that convinced me"), but the cradle orthodox will see a huge dropoff as the parents don't really know how to cultivate faith in the next generation. I know catholicism bleeds cradles like crazy in the US, so I'd expect it to be the same. I hope it isn't a mirage either because I really like what I've seen out of the orthodox church I have visited.
>>18173296>It's the exact opposite - you actually do get to own up to the church being a shitshow because there is no infallible official CEO who could have prevented it.EOs believe their church and tradition and saints are infallible though. This leads to absurd conclusions like calling Augustine a heretic. To defend EO theology you pretty much have to believe that the western Church defected into heresy sometime in the 5th century.
>>18174682Russians and Greeks were more numerous than everything west of them?
>>18171995>Vatican II is indefensible.Now use your thinking brain that you used for Vatican II for the entire church history and ask yourself is it possible that everything in christianity is man-made?
>>1817554512 million in Byzantine Empire, 11.3 million in the HRE, 5 million in Kievan RusKeep in mind large amounts of Great Britain were converted by Egyptians and didn't side with Rome on the schism until later.
>>18175922>12 million in Byzantine EmpireMost of the christians in the Byzantine Empire were considered heretics by both patriarchate of Constantinople and the pope and most of these christians were under islamic rule when the schism happened.
>>18175587*tips*
>>18173261>Pope got a superpower to never be wrongI've been told papal infallibility is less of an absolute rule and more of a requirement to not fuck up.
>>18176236If the pope's ever wrong then he wasn't speaking infallibly>>18173261Most EO converts in the west are papists who were dissatisfied with the pope not being based and trad like they expected so they transplanted their popery wholesale to the church of Moscow, so they are exactly the same in every way except their pope speaks Russian (or more rarely Greek)
>>18176249>If the pope's ever wrong then he wasn't speaking infalliblyThus he wasn't ever really pope?
>>18176249>Most EO converts in the west are papists who were dissatisfied with the pope not being based and trad like they expected so they transplanted their popery wholesale to the church of Moscow, so they are exactly the same in every way except their pope speaks Russian (or more rarely Greek)They also have many child abuse cases:https://cne.news/article/73-russian-church-does-not-easily-admit-abuse
>>18171158>why mathematics functions in our earthly life?Can a christian explain the connotation here?
>>18176345I think God becoming flesh to dwell among us acts like a bridge for proposition 6, to achieve earthly function with truths within God.Also maybe the Palamist divine energies help us discover the various ideas within the "platonic" realm, and we use our Nous for it.
>>18174682>yuuup my favorite ethnic group is.... this one
>>18173261>Are EO's just Catholics than don't want the accountability that comes with holding to the position that the Pope got a superpower to never be wrong?Maybe it begins that way, but at a certain point as an EO convert you realize that things like the Filioque (and subsequent subordination of the Spirit), the legalistic/rationalistic spirit (as opposed to mystical), the de-emphasis of the physical body, the tendency towards innovation (itself linked to the rationalistic spirit) and the tendency towards emotionality are all much bigger issues than the Pope. I often say that if I was forced to become Catholic, but was allowed to change one thing about Catholicism in exchange, the Pope would be pretty far down my list. In fact if hypothetically the Catholic Church was just "the Eastern Orthodox Church but with a Pope" then I don't think the Schism would have even happened. Papal authority itself is not the issue to me, its the other deviations that inevitably come alongside it. In other words if the Pope made the right call all the time then I would have no issue with there being a Pope and honestly might even like having a visible head for the Church. I see the appeal.
