I still don't know what Italian fascism was actually about.
>>18171285socialism without marxist retardation
>>18171285In a nutshell: a synthesis of capitalism and communism which seeks to align worker and capitalist goals. Lower house is made up of what can be thought of as workers unions (called "corporations" but don't get the word confused for a private commercial enterprise). Upper house is industry heads. In the Verona Manifesto Mussolini intended for a fully social democratic state which would have been much more democratic than any major country today, as it would be the only one to have direct worker representation in government.
Why was northern Italy so anti fascist at the end of the war? They were the ones to fight for communism unlike southern Italy and Rome that pushed for american capitalism despite ending up worse off in the long run.I would have thought the two stances would be flipped considering the Greek civil war and in light of Italy's current day inequality.
>>18171285Marxism views history as struggle of classes while Fascism sees history as struggle of nation states or of races if you are the Nazi variant.
>>18171389These two are not remotely really at odds, one is a peace time internal struggle which doesn't work on the global scale which is why a united front of communism never materialised. The other is mostly foreign policy and just assumes you can control any internal struggle by labelling your enemy as an outsider or a sympathiser with outsiders.
>>18171389True, however it should also be said that fascists use virtually the same formula as marxists to achieve their goal.Fascism is all about turning the population into a collective mass whos sole identity is the state, and the state organize all corporations and businesses for the interests of the state.Communism in theory is all about abolishing class, abolishing state, abolishing property etc.Communist states never turns out this way, instead they do the complete opposite.Fascism is what communism is in practice.
>>18171285Aura farming
Hype momments and aura with little actual substance
>>18171285Aesthetics
Anarchism was huge in the 1850s-1920s. As a movement nowadays, it kind of doesn't exist, because Marxism and Facsism don't exist anymore seriously. And Anarchism nowadays has come to mean someone who wants no government, but historically that is false. Back in the day, it was anyone who was dissatisfied with the ruling government, and anyone who wanted to topple it. Keep in mind, this was a time period when new ideas of what a government should be were still a thing. Nowadays we are so used to liberal capitalism. But back then, it really did seem like it could be anything you wanted it to be. Proto-Facists, Marxist, Republicans, etc could all be lumped together as Anarchist at one point. Old Musso here is just trying to get more supporters. he's basically telling people to come on his side
>>18171285Incomprehensible dagobabble
>>18171285>I am Mussolini, a mega-socialist>I am watching the Russian Revolution, it's so cool, they're finally going to do REAL COMMUNISM!>Seriously, they're going to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, which will reform the state and the economy until all laws and restrictions are unnecessary!>It's going to be awesome!>Huh, they seem to be going in completely the opposite direction, becoming explicitly and openly totalitarian >If that's what socialism does in the real world, rather than in the textbook, then we should do that from day one>We don't need to lie to the people about what we want, we're in the right here, we're sure of that!>As Marx himself said "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims!">We're going to do real socialism, in our country, and we're not going to lie about any of it!>Hey, that Austrian painter with the weird voice over there looks like a cool guy, I'm sure that an alliance with him would be a great idea!Mussolini was doing fascism, i.e. honest socialism. He was also kind of retarded, but he was pretty honest about what he thought and wanted. It was fucking horrific for Italy, and that was definitely accelerated by the Austrian painter with the weird voice, but as a minor upside it did make some pretty cool art.
Poorly done 19th century imperialism with one thousand pages of esoteric faggotry
What's a good book on the history of italian fascism bros
>>18171285I'd say it was really about "unity." The corporatist model they were trying to build in Italy which >>18171294 described was about resolving internal conflicts in Italy. They were anti-Marxist (so thus opposed class conflict). They also didn't like parliaments with fractious political parties. Italy had been a fractious sort of place. Another aspect was the military which had special importance, but that makes sense because the military is also about everybody having a job to do and being on the same team and having the same purpose:https://youtu.be/aY3IDjRRn08The core leaders were pro-war leftists (oddly) who joined the military. Then they merged together with the Italian equivalent of the Proud Boys, except there were way more of those guys and with hardcore experience in mountain trench warfare. Those guys who joined up with this were chuddier and much more right-wing (like just in their conception of what they were about) and moved the whole thing to the nationalist right. But the early "fascio" nuclei groups had been a fairly radical, pro-war sort of thing that spiraled out of the far left, of all places, because "nothing ever happens" except a war can change that. And then it did. So it's confusing to people today. They weren't traditional Catholic conservatives, which was another thing in Italy.>>18171385More urban workers in northern Italy? Urban workers were the main base of socialist and communists back then. Also the German occupation I imagine. Communists were more adept than other anti-fascist parties in underground guerrilla operations, and in areas under German occupation, communists created "patriotic fronts" (they used various names) to bring non-communist but anti-fascist forces into a coalition that they controlled. It's kind of like HTS in Syria, they were not the only Islamic group fighting Assad but they led a coalition of groups.
>>18171648Nah, Mussolini didn't like the communists because they opposed the war, and then pulled Russia out of the war. He initially welcomed the February Revolution against Tsarism but did not like the follow-on Bolshevik coup later that year. Also by this point he had totally abandoned Marxism and was describing it as a German philosophy which had nothing to do with Italy, and that it basically served German interests (quite ironic considering he allied with Germany later).Remember it's all about unity. By this point, class struggle Marxism was just going to undermine the Allied nations as Mussolini saw it, and he saw Marxists as basically being fifth columnists for Germany. That's what he was like during the war. The Italian Socialist Party was notable for taking a neutral position. There was a lot of sympathy for the Entente within it, but they supported keeping Italy out of the war (and were unsuccessful), but Mussolini was very pro-war.>>18171731I'm reading a History of Fascism by Stanley Payne right now. Zeev Sternhell also wrote some interesting books about Italian fascist ideology.
>>18171596>>18171600Also the fascists were big into this stuff yeah. Hype moments and aura. They developed this whole cult of Rome, would name military units after legions, and started referring to the year they were in by a Roman numeral starting in the year when Mussolini came to power. There was a lot of stuff like that, and rallies and hype. Mussolini was influenced by Sorel who was into the power of myths to inspire revolutionary activity. These were essentially irrationalist concepts at odds with the logic of rationalism and empiricism. See the movie Amarcord which satirizes fascism:https://youtu.be/KsTqJjDG2Xo
BTW, there was another group called the Italian Nationalist Association (ANI). They had a paramilitary association called the Blueshirts. This was a much more straightforward right-wing organization. There were territories inhabited by Italians in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and they wanted to take those back. Their leader was Enrico Corradini who was funded by arms manufacturers, and became an important pro-war activist group which helped push Italy into joining the war on the side of the Entente. Corradini also developed a pseudo-left sounding theory (like in the phraseology) that Italy was a "proletarian nation" that was disadvantaged with respect to the rest of the world. He didn't advocate socialism but lifted from the propaganda and used for different purposes.They also participated in the March on Rome and later merged with the fascists. Also in 1920 when the fascists really were taking off, the composition of the party membership radically changed as it grew. Many of the core guys in the leadership were still the same, but now they had an ARMY OF CHUDS. Mussolini actually tried to still keep one foot in the left during this time but his own followers wouldn't have it.
>>18171285Italy should be based and strong and virile and not weak and gay and cringe. Therefore we should believe in a verison of the last that inspires us to to based and strong and not weak and gay and cringe. We should eat exciting food and make exciting new art and architecture that revels in how virile and based we are. The state must be strong and based and virile and Italian and people must feel motivated to identify their personhood with the state. Germans are weird and will mess this up for us.
>>18171285aura and hype moments
>>18171285Just read A James Gregor
>>18171813Marxism was all the rage at that time so many people who didnt care about Marxism co-opted it yes.
>>18171875>We should eat exciting foodOnly inaccurate thing here, seasoning is cringe in fascism
Fascism is the attempt to create a collectivist state that derives its support from the identification of the selfhood of the citizen with the state via a top-down state control of aesthetics.
>>18172214Weren't the fascists in to marinetti and hugh cuisine was eating shit like chicken stuffed with ball bearings and salami in perfume soup?
>>18171875All of this. Reading this book by Payne, people overthink it and get too abstract and nerdy about these ideologies. It was really about being unified and strong and powerful and based rather than cringe or gay.
>>18171648>Austrian painter You aren't on tiktok anymore, you're allowed to utter the words ADOLF HITLER.
>>18172337It's funnier not to, especially when it triggers retards like you
>>18172318Yeah. Its about the state being cool so you identify with the state. That's why aesthetics are so important. Your fascist state could have whatever aesthetic you could come up with as long as you could convince people to buy in to it as a collective.
>>18171285Latin temperaments are too volatile for rules based governance or real political philosophy. It's always just window dressing.In the ancient world this wasn't a problem because of the tremendous amount of energy they can call forth (when the mood strikes them).But once Northerns discovered coffee/tea, it was all over for them.
>>18172152What does he say?
>>18172304Only the ones who didnt make it.
>>18172540I've made marinetti's orange risotto. I dunno if I recommend it.
>>18171285Whatever Mussolini needed it to be
>>18171577>Communist states never turns out this way, instead they do the complete opposite.What's up with communism always going back to nationalism eventually. North Korea is probably the most nationalist country on Earth bar none. Even the USSR started to reintroduce nationalism gradually as early as the late 1920s. Nowadays,communist parties in Portugal (PCP). Greece (KKE) or Moldova (PCRM) are way more nationalistic in character than most mainstream nationalist parties.
>>18171294Mussolini's imaginative power was unrivaled.
>>18174526The Verona Manifesto was basically his prototype constitution for a new republic after the king was deposed (since he wasn't really a dictator, he was a prime minister). It includes things like judiciary independence, freedom of religion, and housing as a human right.
>>18171285Aurahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67G5eVU3Eog
>>18174038Don't know anything about those parties but I think it's probably a combination of winning and taking power over the state and then the revolutionary internationalism also collapsing after a certain point. These parties want to stay in power and survive. There was a whole misunderstanding about what was going on which led to some bad theories among the more paranoiac anti-communist right-wingers about the Vietnamese communists being part of this single, giant international community conspiracy, when international communism was visibly cracking up by the 1950s (if not sooner, although perhaps less visibly). Nixon and Kissinger understood this though with the Sino-Soviet split and maneuvered to take advantage of it.North Korea is the most extreme example of that mutation but Marxism is a weird thing. It's an interesting theory but what does it really mean to "be a Marxist" like as an identity thing? How do you raise your children as a Marxist? It really doesn't have much to say about a lot of stuff. Maybe during some extreme revolutionary period then people can really get into it, or they do as a phase in life, then they drop it but they remain whatever they were (Greek or Mexican etc.). There's also an inherent tension between its universalism and the fact that communist parties came to rule particular states (that was just the reality) and governing specific populations.
>>18173199You can't really understand fascism without understanding it is opportunistic above everything else. Mussolini was careful not to alienate groups he'd need the toleration of in order to seize power. You can see this with how he behaved towards the monarchy throughout his entire political career.>>18174038>Even the USSR started to reintroduce nationalism gradually as early as the late 1920sWhat exactly was nationalist about the USSR in the 1920s? Rejecting Trotsky's permanent revolution? Having a state at all? In the first decades of the USSR, opposition to Russian chauvinism was loudly declared. How effective this was in practice is a matter of historical debate.>>18175518>It's an interesting theory but what does it really mean to "be a Marxist" like as an identity thing?>“When asked whether or not we are Marxists, our position is the same as that of a physicist, when asked if he is a “Newtonian” or of a biologist when asked if he is a “Pasteurian.”There are truths so evident, so much a part of the peoples’ knowledge, that it is now useless to debate them. One should be a “Marxist” with the same naturalness with which one is a “Newtonian” in physics or a “Pasteurian.” If new facts bring about new concepts, the latter will never take away that portion of truth possessed by those that have come before.>It really doesn't have much to say about a lot of stuff.How much Marx have you read?
>>18176051It's not opportunistic at all. He believed that everyone in the country was all in the same boat and needed to work together for the common good, so he naturally created systems that required people from different classes to work together. Capitalists believe every-man-for-himself and communists believe in class warfare where the poor fight the rich - and have a completely ludicrous notion that the poor in another country are somehow your natural ally instead of a rival. Mussolini really had the only actually cohesive ideology among the 3.
>>18171389What if History is a struggle of individuals of different classes, nations and races, all at the same time?
>>18176060>He believed that everyone in the country was all in the same boat and needed to work together for the common goodThe definition of "everyone in the country" was always malleable. "The common good" was ultimately fighting futile colonial wars.>and have a completely ludicrous notion that the poor in another country are somehow your natural ally instead of a rivalYou are probably aware of what Globalization is. If you accept that it's a real phenomenon, then you need to accept the reality that every country is subject to one global economy. This has resulted in some countries accumulating capital, while others exist to have their cheap labor and raw materials extracted. Regardless of what continent they were on, communists of the fin de siecle understood that they all had something in common. They were beholden to the same capitalist system as everyone else. Thinking that nationalism supersedes this relation to capital is how Mussolini became a fascist to begin with.>>18176191Which of these has been the biggest differentiator throughout all of human history?
>>18171385Would communist Italy change anything in the large scheme of things or would it just be yugoslavia 2?
>>18176051>You can't really understand fascism without understanding it is opportunistic above everything else. You interpretate it as opportunism.Others call it being pragmatic.You think Mussolini is alone on walking back on some of his promises once becoming head of state?Moron.>What exactly was nationalist about the USSR in the 1920s? Rejecting Trotsky's permanent revolution? Having a state at all? In the first decades of the USSR, opposition to Russian chauvinism was loudly declared. How effective this was in practice is a matter of historical debate.Every single propaganda poster from the USSR advocates towards giving your life to the state. Stop being an autistic retard.And all their collectivist polciies was about strengthening the state. The people continued to live in extreme poverty while Stalin was expanding the state apparatus, the military, and made schemes to supress dissidents or to expand the borders.
>>18176441Is North Korea subject to Globalization?
>>18171770That is in fact not at all what fasces are. They were emblematic of the authority of those who had power to inflict corporal punishment (the sticks) and capital punishment (the axe). The meaning of the symbol remains unchanged today, demonstrating the monopoly of violence the state claims and the reason they're displayed in the US House, although they were literal in their display in the Roman period, borne by aides called lictors and with each subsequent bundle indicating more rank or authority, and replaced as they were broken or dulled over the backs and necks of dirty fucking proles like you.
>>18176752>Others call it being pragmatic.Constantly reorienting your beliefs to obtain or maintain power can only get you so far. Mussolini claiming he was actually a socialist all along didn't keep him from getting shot and hung by Communists. https://bibliotecafascista.blogspot.com/2013/05/last-testament-of-benito-mussolini-1945.html>Every single propaganda poster from the USSR advocates towards giving your life to the state.Barring the fact that this is very easy to disprove and could be said for propaganda from any other country (Uncle Sam was pointing at YOU for a reason), why is this your first counterargument? Have you ever read any books, papers, etc. about nationalism(s) within the USSR? Or did you just look at the propaganda posters? You don't have to pretend you're an illiterate Soviet peasant. I know you can read.>>18176768Yes. North Koreans have been used as cheap labor abroad since the state has existed. It's had a Special Economic Zone since 1991. No matter how much it's pursued autarky and closed itself off from the rest of the world, it is still a part of the global economy like any other state.
>>18171285It was an emotion.
>>18176051>How much Marx have you read?Not very much. Maybe I will read more, but as to your point, you don't see some group marching around being like "we're the Newtonians!"
>>18176782The fasces does symbolize unity THOUGH. That's what the rods are for. But yes, also power / leadership / authority. Unity and power. Say it with me.>Unity and power! Unity and power! Unity and power!
>>18176921>I define being subject to Globalization as having any form of economic exchange with any foreign countrygreat point
>>18176957Who are you quoting? Even if you're the most isolated, autarkic state in the world, you're still in the mix just like every other country post-1991. It's not that hard to understand unless you think globalization and "globalism" are the same thing.
>>18171285It grew out of Socialism. Mussolini was a Socialists but got kicked out of the Socialist Party for supporting Italy's entrance to ww1.Founded his own party which was still quite Socialist-adjacents. They preached revolution, to overthrow the nobility and monarchy, secularism, socializing the economy etc. but they were also very nationalistic, and glorified war and the military. The Socialists hated them, considered them traitors so they clashed often.They remained a fringe party though, and Mussolini realized they could get more support if they toned down the revolutionary speech and pretended to respect the Church and big business, that way they can ally with right-wingers who are scared of a communist revolution. They were willing to support the Fascists since they were militantly against the Socialists, and the Fascists went from "social revolution but with more nationalism" to "actually we want to defend traditional values from and for that we should mobilize the masses". In practice, the Fascist government was more of a coalition of the OG Fascists and traditional elites, so instead of the complete social transformation they originally believed in it was mostly a dictatorship over reactionary institutions (plus imperial conquests).Mussolini himself probably didn't have strong beliefs apart from wanting to be in power, being worshipped, and banning pasta because it made Italians too fat.
>>18177222don't forget all the pussy he was getting
>>18171798If I remember well around 2 thirds or more of CNC fans prefered Nod over GDI, and that was during the end of history, nowadays as caesarism approaches the number will get higher and higher.PEACE THROUGH POWER!
