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Lots of British/Unionist people did want this.

Problem is, partition was never really about democracy or self-determination; it was a power grab by one group of Unionists in the northeast, who didn't really have any goals or plans other than >"whatever we need to do to keep Irish Catholics under our boot."

Unionists in the border counties of Ulster held these massive conferences and rallies begging the likes of James Craig not to accept partition, because it would turn Unionism in all of Ireland from a powerful minority to a complete irrelevance. The other issue is that if the other counties were included, Northern Ireland wouldn't have a Unionist majority guarenteed; the only areas with a solid Unionist majority were mostly confined to the very northeast of the region.

Despite all the bluster, it was eventually decided by James Craig's faction in the northeast that rather than any sillyness about self-determination, democracy, whatever, the attitude was to be
>fuck you, we got our bit
>everyone fuck off and let us do what we want

Whilst in the south, Irish Nationalists started trying to take a pragmatic approach with Britain to partition-Unionists simply shrugged and boycotted anything that they feared might lose them a single inch of territory. They were warned by basically everyone at the time that
>if you retards just chimp out and run this place for yourselves, it's going to collapse
Sure enough, roughly 50 years later that's exactly what happened.

Had Ireland not been split, the very significant Unionist majority would have easily acted as a kingmaker for any subsequent Irish government-allying with the Conservative or Anglophilic blocs within Irish politics (that some underage IRA larpers like to pretend didn't exist) to probably quite easily block the more Republican elements from having free run of the place from the 1930s onwards.

>tl;dr
Never underestimate how retarded Ulster Unionists are.

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>>18212705
>Why didn't all of Ulster stay in Northern Ireland?

Stay? Northern Ireland was created from the partition of Ulster and Ireland and didn't exist prior to that. There was no Northern Ireland for the other counties of Ulster to stay in not that they wanted to. There was parts of what is now Northern Ireland like Fermanagh and Derry City that were dragged into being part of it but wanted to be part of the Republic but no parts of the Republic that wanted to be part of Northern Ireland.

>>18212756
So you're telling me that they drew the border the way they did to ensure a solid Unionist majority north of the border, as one would if it was about self-determination, but also that it wasn't at all about self-determination?

>>18212756
>Had Ireland not been split, the very significant Unionist majority would have easily acted as a kingmaker for any subsequent Irish government-allying with the Conservative or Anglophilic blocs within Irish politics (that some underage IRA larpers like to pretend didn't exist) to probably quite easily block the more Republican elements from having free run of the place from the 1930s onwards.
Yeah just like how the Nationalist minority, who were over twice as large a percentage in 1921 Northern Ireland as the Unionist minority in a United Ireland would've been, was the king maker of Northern Ireland and totally wasn't just completely ignored and discriminated against.

>>18213788
The border was not drawn with self-determination in mind. Even the Unionists at the time did not try to suggest so.

Again, the Irish side of the negotiations on the border approached it from a side of potentially holding local referendums in "contested" areas to see which way they wanted to go. Unionism's attitude was simple; they had the land, everyone fuck off.
>>18214257
Ulster Unionism and Irish Nationalism are not two sides of one coin. Protestants (and Unionists, or Home Rulers) were not persecuted or ostracised by the government in the Free State. The Redmonites rallied around the National League Party or Cumann na nGaedheal (later Fine Gael), Unionists did too.

At no point did the Irish Free State:
>gerrymander their electoral boundaries to eradicate Unionist voters
>outright ban British symbols or documents in favour of Unionism/Britain
>give themselves permanent emergency powers and use them almost exclusively against Ulster Unionists

The Free State also did not have de-facto 1 party rule for the first several decades of its existence, nor were all members of their ruling party part of a sectarian supremacist organisation-as the UUP were with the Orange Order. There is not a single historian on earth who would actually argue that partition was in any way democratic. It was seen as a disasterous farce from the get go, by both Britain and Ireland.

The Free State had a slew of problems and I am very keen to remind people of that. But Northern Ireland and the Free State are apples and oranges :^) . The Free State at its absolute worst of the Catholic Constitution days or the wartime emergency powers did not come close to the average day in the draconian, dysfunctional shithole that was Northern Ireland.

I would strongly recommend you both "The Partition" by Charles Townshend. Be Unionist if you want, but trying to suggest there was anything normal or decent about partition will leave you looking very silly.

>>18215681
yes they were
protestants were ethnically cleansed and made to hide their protestantism under the gaelic nationalism of the free state. taigs destroyed the yola langugae and fingallian

>>18215741
>protestants were ethnically cleansed
No, they weren't. The Protestant population decline in much of Ireland was already underway many years prior to the revolutionary period.

In the wake of the revolution, the following people emigrated;
>British soldiers and their families
>Aristocrats
Many of whom were Protestant. Many also simply moved up north.
The real killer for the Protestant population was mixed marriages, where in the vast majority of cases the children were raised Catholic. British Historian Charles Townshend (same author of "The Partition") dismisses the emotional assumption that any ethnic cleansing happened.

The most controversial anti-protestant action of the Irish Free State's government was when a Protestant librarian was appointed and local Bishops opposed it. The Government supported the librarian.
>tl;dr
Citations for Protestant population decline being unrelated to the Irish Free State's founding include Charles Townshend's "The Partition", "Protestant Depopulation and the Irish Revolution" by David Fitzpatrick, and Gemma Clarks works on the civil war and its aftermath.

The only historians I can think of who supported the "ethnic cleansing" argument are
>Peter Hart
Who built his career on revisionism over the revolution, openly taking an overly critical view of the Irish side of things. His findings have been panned by many historians.
>Robin Bury
Who wrote a book saying "they were cleansed" with zero evidence, filling the second half with interviews with current-day Ulster Unionists talking about not being in charge anymore.

>>18215681
The principle of self-determination is ALWAYS selectively applied as letting every single little village decide for itself only creates a mess of enclaves and panhandles, and that also ignores economic and strategic considerations. But if the border is drawn to ensure that a solid majority on both sides are in the country of their choosing, which you yourself admit that it was, then the principle of self-determination was indeed applied.

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>>18215762
Right, certainly. Any border in a place like northeastern Ireland was always going to leave SOME people unhappy.

Except no, because were the border in fact only drawn to include majority Unionist areas then Northern Ireland couldn't have survived. The annexation of clearly majority nationalist areas was deemed necessary to keep it afloat. Look at the blue dotted line in picrel; that was proposed by the Irish Free State as a perfectly acceptable border. It still ensnared significant "Catholic Areas" within Northern Ireland, but was very simply a line drawn around the clearest and most cohesive set of majority Unionist counties.

Let's look at what people at the time thought of it:
>Unionist MP Colonel Guinness
"The governmet is drifting into a crowning blunder in Irish policy."
>Lord Cecil Hugh
"The [4th Home Rule Bill] does not meet Irish nor international demands."
>Bonar Law
"It is no good talking about self-determination. What is the good of talking about that? What is the good of telling us that the Irish should get what they wish?"


On March 25th 1920 when the Govt of Ireland Bill was presented, it was noted that it contained to reference to "Self-Determination."
Charles Craig gave a simple rebuttal, articulating the Ulster Unionist approach:
>"As much of Ulster as we can hold."

In Britain, the attitude was:
>Okay, two parliaments, north and south, we try to draw the border to have things as cleanly and clearly cut as possible.
On the Irish side:
>Okay, two jurisidictions, hopefully not forever. We should allow for *some* extra land for Northern Ireland, or it'll just collapse in on itself and cause pereptual instability.

On the Ulster Unionist side
>Fuck you, we've got ours.
Were self-determination the focus of partition, Northern Ireland would not only have been much smaller from the start but some effort would have been made to prevent the dismantling of democracy by Ulster Unionists in the 1920s following the cut.

>>18215777
So what you’re saying is since the Ulster Unionists already had local power their sole goal was to hold onto every last piece of majority Catholic land that they could in Ulster as long as they maintained their Unionist majority and that large chunks of modern northern Ireland are much more Catholic but were simply absorbed by that local power bloc as a land grab?

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>>18215777
Czechoslovakia had a Czech/Slovak majority of 65% upon its founding, the same as Northern Irelands 65% Protestant majority, only their minorities were neatly concentrated in the border regions which would have allowed a fairly clearcut split along ethnic lines, unlike this proposed border in blue that would have still left alot of Catholics and Protestants on the wrong side of it.
But the term self-determination was LITERALLY COINED for Czechoslovakia and the other countries created in the peace treaties of WW1. Again, the principle is always selectively applied, and as you said they excluded the other three counties so as to ensure a solid Unionist majority, meaning they did apply it.

>>18215754
>>British soldiers and their families
>>Aristocrats
They moved because they were burnt out of their houses by taigs.
>muh historians think protestant accounts of them being persecuted by taigs aren't real
historians also pretend the holocaust is real

>>18215741
>Loyalists in the Free State also reserved their ire for Westminster. In 1924, congratulating the Free State government for restoring peace after the revolutionary period’s violent upheavals, the Orange Order hierarchy in Cavan and Monaghan favourably counterposed the Dublin government to their former allies in London and Belfast. Castigating the architects of the Anglo-Irish Treaty, senior officials in the Orange Order charged British plenipotentiaries and the UUC alike with deserting them. At a commemorative event in 1925 a spirited crowd cheered the Cavan Grand Master’s scorn for Whitehall, which had ‘thrown us overboard’. A listener’s cry of ‘Down with England!’ received popular acclaim.

>Having first charged their northern brethren with betrayal, lost counties loyalists subsequently arraigned Northern Ireland’s political and religious leaders for underestimating southern Protestants’ initiative and ingenuity. Meeting in Belfast in July 1923, the Presbyterian Church General Assembly claimed that their number faced severe discrimination in the Free State. Over the border, however, a leading Presbyterian jurist refuted the General Assembly’s assessment. Judge Brown of Cavan Quarter Sessions asserted that even amid political unrest, the county’s Presbyterians had upheld their traditions and enjoyed largely harmonious relations with their Catholic neighbours. Furthermore, the same year, the hierarchy of the Church of Ireland insisted that Belfast unionists exaggerated the subjugation of Free State Protestants.

>>18215741
>The self-interested desire to establish coherent political representation undoubtedly motivated these loyalists’ constructive orientation towards the fledgling state. But, after the Civil War gave way to greater political stability under President W.T. Cosgrave’s pro-Treaty Cumann na nGaedheal government, there were instances of cross-community altruism in the Free State’s rural border areas. Sometimes these encounters simply represented neighbourly sociability; on other occasions, they were explicitly ecumenical. In north-east Donegal in 1923, when Presbyterian churches at Fahan and Inch faced significant financial difficulties, members of the local Catholic congregation assisted in organising fundraising fetes.

>>18215790
>>18215822
The Truth is that taigs will NEVER accept northern ireland in any way.
Northern Ireland could have exclusively consisted of county down and antrim on its founding and had a 90% protestant majority yet taigs would still be upset with it because the truth is they hate protestants and will not be happy until they're cleansed from ireland. That's all it is. blatant ethnic hatred. This hatred is especially ironic since without protestant whigs giving them their entire ideology the irish would still be a bunch of monarchist retards wishing for the return of the stuarts.

>>18215872
>>18215870
Another reader told the 'Standard' his father had arrived in Portadown as a young boy along with his parents and brothers and sisters in Cavan. "They stayed in Portadown for a year. It was the first big Protestant town on their way from Cavan and they were well received. They had not been able to bring any clothes apart from those they were wearing.

"Thanks to the kindness of Portadown Protestants they got a small house and furniture and clothing. They attended school in the Park Road area for a year, but my grandfather obtained work in Belfast and the family moved to the city," he said.

The man said the family had settled in the city and had done well. "Some members emigrated to Canada, but most stayed in East Belfast and joined the Orange Order. My father was not a bitter man, and was more bewildered than anything else by the treatment the family received.

"They had been well thought of in Cavan, were on good terms with their Roman Catholic neighbours. But they never made any secret of their loyalty and membership of the Orange Order. This was the only reason the family could think of for their explusion", he said.

A descendant of another of another Southern Irish family, which moved to the Banbridge area, said few people realised the extent of the suffering of the Protestants from the South.

>>18215878
>So, why has the parade tended to remain so free from tension? A significant factor must be the healthy community relations that have prevailed there. In 2001, a poll of Donegal Protestants found that 86% identified with ‘Irishness’ and the Irish state, demonstrating pride in national achievements, while 96% mixed socially with the Catholic community.[18] The fields where the parades are held, for example, are Catholic-owned while one local Orangemen commented that they and the local lodges of the Ancient Order of Hibernians ‘co-operated closely’, often loaning each other instruments for their respective parades.

>>18215874
For the record, I’m primarily of Ulster-Scot ancestry, but if the divide is ethnic shouldn’t you be saying the Irish want the Scots out? Catholic and Protestant aren’t ethnicities even if they’ve been used as a proxy in Ireland.

>>18215902
Protestant and catholic are just shorthands for Anglo-Scottish protestant settlers and gaelic irish catholic

>>18215869
>They moved because they were burnt out of their houses by taigs.
The "Big House" aristocrats did, yeah. Who cares?
>Soldiers
Again, most of these guys either intermarried with Catholics or emigrated when the British Army no longer had anywhere for them to be in Ireland-therefore they took their families with them. Lots ended up in Britain or Canada in particular.
>>18215874
>taigs will never accept northern ireland
Correct, and it's the right opinion.

A bunch of retarded sectarian orangemen shouldn't have been trusted to govern; all the people (British and Irish) who warned that they'd run the place into the ground were correct.
>but withour prods, they'd not have their ideology!!!
Which makes it all the MORE retarded that Ulster Unionism managed to convince so many Protestants to nuke themselves into ostracisation and spend the rest of their bleak history in a state of constant damage control.

Nationalism and Republicanism have fallen over themselves to appease Unionists, showing a grace and maturity that has rewarded them with nothing. Sinn Féin attended the coronation, they attend Remembrance Ceremonies. Unionists cry about bilingual signs.

>>18212756
Guarantee an american wrote this

>>18215948
>the only protestants in ireland were lords and soldiers
Not true is it though

>>18215952
Nope.
>>18215959
I didn't say that, did I? I responded specifically to the post about aristocrats and soldiers.

There were obviously many civilian protestants in Ireland. Their population decline was again mostly due to marriage with Catholics or *economic* migration for the working class Protestants; wealthy Protestants stuck around because they remained highly over-represented in agriculture and law.

>>18215948
No, the right opinion is that Ireland never should have left the union in the first place.

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>>18216055
Ireland probably wouldn't have left (at least, not for a long time) were it not for Ulster Unionists.

In 1910, the overwhelming majority opinion in Ireland was that the "Irish Nation" was perfectly capable of existing as a self-governing entity while still in the British Empire. Sinn Féin started off as a party calling for an Austro-Hungarian style dual monarchy.

Despite being the ovewhelming majority view since the 1860s, it wasn't until the 1910s that it was finally about to be granted. Ulster Unionists formed a paramiltiary organisation, smuggled weapons into Ireland, and threatened open rebellion. Irish Republicanism-then a VERY fringe and unpopular movement-found a new lease of life, and organised the founding of the Irish Volunteers to oppose this. The Irish Volunteers went on to become the IRA.

Had Britain taken the side of Ireland's massive majority-or had they simply not thrown their lot in with a Unionist minority-it's unlikely that separatism could have made the gains it did.

>>18215952
Obsessed. Leave us out of this (we don’t claim Irish-“Americans.”

Why is Irish nationalism seemingly the only form of white european nationalism that lefitsts don't throw a hissy fit about?

>>18216273
Because it's left wing. Ireland was colonised, the (modern nationalism) was inspired by the French and American revolutions, and the main principles were
>independence
>republicanism
>land reform
>religious equality
The original IRA fought for a government that began with the Dáil's Democratic Programme, which made an explicit mention of "equal righst and opportunities." Post-revolution, Irish Republicanism continued to drift further and further to the left. In the north, nationalists also rallied around the Social Democratic and Labour Party; since most Irish Catholics had the most to gain from social reforms, they backed left-wing parties.

Nationalism to most means right wing, but Irish Nationalism has always been "left wing" in many ways.

What role did irish travellers play in the troubles, if any?
On a tangential note i've noticed that Brits tend to have a mixed begrudging respect sort of attitutude towards irish travellers while irishmen vehemently hate them.

>>18215918
Yeah well it's a retarded shortsighted shorthand and tantamount to blasphemy

>>18216273
Because Irish Nationalism is not racist chauvinistic garbage and the Irish people are amazing people and the biggest supporters of Palestine in the continent

Whenever I trash honkys I always exclude the Irish, these guys are ok

>>18216288
How the fuck does leftist nationalism even work?
Leftist won't consider you to be one of them unless you don't suck the cock of globalism.
Though I admit this view comes from my personal experience.

>>18217514
The vast majority of Irish people don't give a fuck about Palestinians and you're most likely some kike for bringing the Palestinians up out of nowhere.

>>18217967
Irish Nationalism is only left wing because that anon you replied to is left wing therefore Irish nationalism is left wing. I would say Irish Nationalism is neither left or right and about doing what's right and good for the Irish people. All those so called left wing Nationalists created a very conservative Catholic nation in the South so make of that what you will.

>>18215874
>be a bunch of monarchist retards wishing for the return of the stuarts.
Shut your syphilitic mouth

>>18216288
>Because it's left wing. Ireland was colonised, the (modern nationalism) was inspired by the French and American revolutions, and the main principles were
Ironic, seeing as the american revolutionaries were anti irish and the irishmen wild geese in france were incredibly loyal to the king and saw nothing wrong with killing the revolutionaries

>>18218085
>Ironic, seeing as the american revolutionaries were anti irish

They weren't

>and the irishmen wild geese in france were incredibly loyal to the king and saw nothing wrong with killing the revolutionaries

They were employed by the king and the officers would have been from families that were gentry in Ireland before being disposed. The revolutionaries were evil so they were in the right side of history.

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>>18217967
It's pretty simple, anon.

They want to be an independent nation. Their values are rooted in democracy, land reform, and the idea of Irish people of all faiths coming together to rid Ireland of British interference; that's where it started.
>Leftist won't consider you to be one of them unless you don't suck the cock of globalism.
Student or Twitter politics are not real politics, political parties sucking up to trending social/international issues for attention (and the youth vote) is aimed at fooling retarded malleable teenagers. If you still take it at face value beyond that age, I dunno what to tell you.
>>18217997
>I would say Irish Nationalism is neither left or right
It is historically rooted in """left wing""" issues; land reform, democracy, social equality for the Irish people. This shit goes as far back as the Fenian Proclamation in the 1800s yapping about labour rights.
>All those so called left wing Nationalists created a very conservative Catholic nation
The Republic of Ireland was not founded by the people who fought in the War of Independence.

Britain imposed a retarded treaty, and the new government (Cumann na nGaedheal) staged a counter-revolution with the backing of the British Government and using many veterans of the British Army. They executed not only more IRA men in 1922-1923 than the British did in the entire war, but they also wiped out crucial leaders within the Republican movement. Many of the core principles and policies of the 1st Dáil Éireann were abandoned, such as the Democratic Programme.

It would be the mark of a liar to suggest there were no Conservatives in Ireland, but the mark of an utter retard to believe that the Catholic Constitution era was in any way a natural evolution of what people were fighting for 1916-1922.

>>18218085
>wild geese
Originated in the aftermath of the Williamite War, fleeing persecution for their faith. The main protection of their faith was the Jacobite Cause. It is not some weird mystery that they left for the most powerful Catholic nations in Europe.

However, the Irish you refer to are in the Irish Brigade, who were quite literally an army of Jacobite Soldiers who were sent specifically into French service elsewhere following the transfer of French troops from another location into Ireland. The Irish also later famously fought for Napoleon in the Irish Legion. It isn't at all ironic that the Irish in history sided with regimes less likely to fuck them over.

It'd be like saying
>why don't the Irish like Cromwell? He was a Republican after all!

>>18218103
>historically rooted in """left wing""" issues; land reform, democracy, social equality for the Irish people. This shit goes as far back as the Fenian Proclamation in the 1800s yapping about labour rights.

And did those people call themselves left wing it? Did the term even exist back then?

>>18218103
>The Republic of Ireland was not founded by the people who fought in the War of Independence.

It was and many people who were involved in it were involved in running the state decades after. Ireland was a conservative country be they were conservative men and women. It's what the people wanted

>>18218143
>And did those people call themselves left wing
I'm not expert on the specific history of the phrases "left/right wing", but those names as labels for political groupins go back to the 1700s.

But as for
>did the IRA (1920s, we know that Troubles era IRA were basically all openly socialist) consider themselves left wing
The answer is yes. There were two bodies which the IRA can be said to have fought for: the Irish Republican Brotherhood or the Dáil Éireann, both of which were categorically "left wing." The Dáil Courts and the Labour Tribunals during the war years were markedly more progressive/left than they were conservative/right. Don't get me wrong; the IRA weren't socialists by this point (the actual socialists saw them as an obstacle to socialist revolution) but the core principles they fought for were:
>independent republic
>social equality
>labour rights
>land reform
That's what Sinn Féin campaigned for. It's what the Dáil advocated for through politics, and what the IRB pursued through violence.

>It was and many people who were involved in it were involved in running the state decades after
No, it wasn't. The vast majority of the IRA, Cumann na mBan, and the ICA opposed the Treaty.

Ireland remained a British Dominion which inherited almost nothing from the Irish Republic other than the name of the Dáil Éireann. Almost all the Irish Republic's policies were dropped.
>Ireland was a conservative country be they were conservative men and women
In 1910, maybe.

It is very clear that you want it to be true that Ireland was some conservative, dutifully Catholic nation which has drifted astray from that point. It was a bit like that under British rule, at times, but the movement which gained Ireland its independence was the complete opposite of that. Free State parties ditching the monarchy, changing the name, and FINALLY leaving the Empire in the late 1940s (and still abandoning the north) doesn't change that.

>>18218089
>They weren't
They were
>An Address to the Inhabitants of the American Colonies declared that the righteousness of the colonial cause would be vindicated in battles against the British: “Their principal muscular strength, at present, consists then in a number of mercenary, hackneyed, tattered Regiments, patched up by the most abandoned and debauched of mankind, the scum of the nation, the dregs of Irish and Scottish desperadoes
>>18218108
>Persecution for their Faith
Billy was incredibly liberal and tolerant towards catholics and catholics who did not take up arms against the williamite regime were left completely alone.
>>why don't the Irish like Cromwell? He was a Republican after all!
Cromwell was liberal and even-handed towards catholics and wasn't especially anti catholic or anti irish. In fact he stopped puritans from persecuting catholics in maryland and was religiously tolerant.

>>18218187
>Billy was incredibly liberal and tolerant towards catholics
Too bad the Treaty of Limerick was never really implemented and wholesale persecution of Catholics began almost immediately after he left, then.
>Cromwell was liberal and even-handed towards catholics
See above: the lived reality debunks the theorhetical implementation of what you believe his views to have been.

In 1695 Irish Catholics owned 14% of the land, by 1714 that number was down to 7%. I have seen many retarded takes, but simply denying that Catholic persecution took place is probably the funniest.

>>18218187
>Their principal muscular strength, at present, consists then in a number of mercenary, hackneyed, tattered Regiments, patched up by the most abandoned and debauched of mankind, the scum of the nation, the dregs of Irish and Scottish desperadoes

That's a qoute from one person and they're talking about the soldiers in the British army opposing them not the people of the nations from which they come just them.

>>18218177
I'm talking about society being conservative because the people were conservative. I didn't need the history lesson.

>>18218196
it's a quote from one of the leaders of the american revolution lmao

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>>18218202
>I didn't need the history lesson
Then what the fuck are you doing on /his/ you absolute gurn

Like I said, it's the mark of a retard or a member of Ógra Shinn Féin (same thing really) to say that everyone in the 1920s in Ireland was some big lefty. But the crucial point I'm making is that
>the IRA
>the ICA
>Cumann na mBan
>the 1st Dáil Éireann
>the "anti-treaty IRA" (see: the IRA)
All knew full well that they were fighting an agitating for a "left-wing" government programme, rooted in the "left wing" principles that had guided Irish nationalism since the latter half of the 1700s (both constitutional and revolutionary). Those are:
>land reform
>democracy+independence (universal suffrage)
>religious equality
Then a little later (1800s) Labour Rights.

The tradition of constitutional nationalism (arguably beginning with Grattan's Parliament back in the 1780s) was always more conservative, but never had any real interest in independence, just autonomy under Britain.

>>18218196
>>18218205
also americans compared the actions of lord north and the british to the actions of the irish in the 1640s

>>18218187
I cannot find any credible sources for this quote or even an named attribution, it’s all just Outlander FB groups and subreddits

>>18218225
search it up on the internet archive
The american revolutionaries were anti tory anti jacobite and naturally associated scots and to a lesser extent the irish with those movements

>>18218229
I did that’s where I found a load of Outlander fan clubs and no sources or even a named attribution of who even said this. If you have a source that’d be nice.

>>18218177
Nta but why were so many Irish fine with becoming a dominion of Britain? I know you said the majority of the IRA opposed it, but the pro-treaty side must have had the assent of the population at large.

>>18218239
https://archive.org/details/AmericanArchives-FourthSeriesVolume3peterForce/page/n793/mode/2up

>>18218214
>All knew full well that they were fighting an agitating for a "left-wing" government programme, rooted in the "left wing" principles

Did they say they were though? Did they say they were left wing and fighting for left wing shit ? Or were they doing what they thought was right and fair for the Irish and never mentioned anything left wing or right wing.

>>18218258
>Origin, Samuel Freeman
Literally who?

>>18218246
Why were they fine with the Treaty?

Well it was basically
>Britain devastates Dublin in 1916
>Britain rampages across Ireland between 1919 and 1922
>Many artocities against civilians
>Britain says: accept this Treaty or we will massively and immediately escalate our military response
>Some within the IRA leadership (a small minority) follow Michael Collins, who hopes to use the Treaty was a "stepping stone" to full independence, while running interference with the Ulster Unionists who want to fuck over the Irish in the north

>Treaty narrowly passes in the vote
>Most of the fighters say "what the fuck"
>Collins dies during the Civil War
>Counter-revolutionary/VERY conservative faction of Sinn Féin consolidate their position and violently suppress the IRA/other dissidents
>Anti-Treaty politicians boycott the new government
>Pro-Treaty faction has a free run of the place for a decade

The quote regarding the dregs of the Irish and Scots doesn’t even make sense as being anti-Irish in the larger context. There were more than a few founding fathers who were Scots Irish and then huge chunks of the revolutionary armies were filled or supported by Scots Irish Presbyterians that immigrated in large numbers as recently as a few decades before the American Revolution. The distinction between Scots Irish and Irish wasn’t defined in American society yet because basically no Gaelic Catholics immigrated before the 1840s. All the Irish that immigrated before then were Anglo-Scottish descent Protestants but were labeled Irish because that’s where they came from. They had no problem fitting into society anywhere, except among the puritans of New England but no one other than puritans fit in there.

>>18218281
One of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence was a Gaelic Catholic tbf

>>18218286
Fair, but still too small in number to cause the kind of anti-Irish sentiment that arose later, and any existing then would have been aimed at English-speaking Presbyterians.

>>18218261
>did they say they were, though? did they say they were fighting for left wing shit?
No anon, farmers sons and shopkeepers in the 1920s Ireland were not wandering the fields of rural Cork chatting about how they were "fighting for left wing shit."

They did however swear an Oath of Allegience to the Dáil Éireann in 1920. So every single member of the IRA at one stage swore an oath either to:
>Irish Volunteers Constitution
The very first Object of which is "To secure and maintain the rights and liberties common to all the people of Ireland" and to "Unite in the service of Ireland, Irishmen of every creed and of every party and class."
>Dáil Éireann
Which as I've said, published the Democratic Programme which was very "left wing."

I am not trying to suggest to you that a bunch of typical Irish lads were blue-haired screaming marxists. There IS some truth to the idea that many of them simply joined up because it's what they believed was the right thing to do. But the simple and unavoidable truth is that they were fighting for what were considered "left wing" policies, or if nothing else fighting for policies which are now considered "left wing."
>land reform/redistribution
>social reform/equality
>independence+democracy
>universal suffrage

>>18218281
>All the Irish that immigrated before then were Anglo-Scottish descent Protestants but were labeled Irish

There was still lots of Irish Catholics there too and there was immigration from Irish Catholics. There was prominent Irish Catholics on the American revolutionary side. General Sullivan, Hercules Mulligan, commodore Barry etc.. Two signees of the declaration of independence were of Irish Catholic stock too.

>>18218293
So they weren't left wing then.

>>18218301
They swore oaths to organisations implementing or agitating for the implementation of "left wing" policies. They were either left wing, or as you said, believed that fighting for those things was what Ireland needed at the time. NOT nearly as left wing as the actual socialists (though they worked with them) but certainly not "conservative."

If they were conservative they'd have opposed not only the IRA but Sinn Féin as a whole, as many did.

I dunno if you're trying to ragebait or something but it does feel like I'm talking to a pajeet or something. Are you being deliberately dense?

>>18218297
Catholics overall in the colonies were roughly 1% of the population, let alone Irish Catholics. It makes sense the wealthier ones would have immigrated though and thus be better represented in higher positions. The Scots Irish population by contrast was much, much greater. They made up as high as 12% of the population by 1776 and had been coming over for decades in large spirts.

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>>18218281
>>18218286
>>18218289
Gaels, scottish gaels especially were the subject of contempt by the american rebels
The american revolution was an anglo saxon revolution against foreigners especially scots, germans and irish
>>18218297
Bullshit taig
Irish catholics were an incredibly small portion of the american population at that time
Catholics were banned from being in the state congresses of the carolinas and were subject ot widespread hatred in basically all of the colonies apart from the middle ones like pennsylvania and new york

>>18218379
based

>>18218103
>>18218177
>>18218214
>>18218279
>>18218293
>>18218311
Answer my question Irish history anon >>18216710
Did Irish Travellers play any role in the Troubles?

>>18218385
Sorry anon, I missed that one!

They didn't play a direct role in the Troubles, ie as a belligerent/influential force. They're generally disliked and mistreated across Ireland, north and south, so while they ran afoul of sectarian violence they weren't really any more or less than the standard
>"gypsies are thieving tramps"

There were of course historical bits and pieces with certain traveller families; as the stories go, some of them are indeed descended through many generations from roaming bands of rebel communities put out of their homes after 18th/19th century rebellions.

But save for a handful of stories about aiding with smuggling or whatever (never really seen it substantiated by historians or quantified) I don't think they played a serious role. Interestingly in the 1920s the IRA actually distrusted them, thinking they might be gathering intelligence for Britain.

>>18218379
I know I’ve read things about Scottish Gaels, but those are completely different from the Scots Irish, who were Anglo and Scottish from the lowlands.
>especially scots, germans
Not even close to true. There were huge swathes of German settlers, especially in Pennsylvania, and they formed German battalions and fought for the Revolution. Same with Scots proper, but there were far fewer of them. The Scots Irish were huge supporters of the Revolution and fought for it; they hated the British who had just squashed their religion in Ulster just a few generations ago. And neither the Scots nor Scots Irish were Gaels.

>>18218408
What role do they play in crime in the north or are they afraid of the paramilitaries?
At least in Britain travellers, while the nomadic travellers are hated the settled/semi settled ones are kind of begrudgingly respected by the white working class and seen as a bit of a laugh. There's also the fact that for some reason a lot of british travellers have mixed with the white underclass and have normal Anglo surnames.

>>18218379
>was an anglo saxon revolution

It wasn't though considering Anglo Saxons don't exist and and English people are at most 30% Anglo Saxon and are overwhelmingly not Anglo Saxon.

You're not an Anglo Saxon yourself either you daft cunt.

>>18212705
They already grabbed as much land as they could, do you think that shitty colony would have lasted even half as long if they forced even more natives into it?

>>18218427
>who were Anglo and Scottish from the lowlands.

There was Gaels in the lowlands too. Many lowland surnames are Anglicized Gaelic Scottish surnames.

>>18218461
The highland-lowland divide is hardly a clear cut one, but it’s a useful shorthand. My point is that by the 1600s, the Scots going to Ireland were not Gaelic-speaking, even if their ancestors were. They were largely Scots-speaking and they were Protestants. They were culturally distinct from the Gaels of Ireland and northern Scotland.

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>>18218427
Germans were overwhelmingly loyal to britain, and the german hessians that king george brought over made it so anti german sentiment in revolutionary america was common
>>18218454
English people are more anglo saxon than irish people are celtic. Irish people are more anglo saxon than they are celtic. In fact the bell beakers who make up 90% of the irish genepool came from near enough the same area the anglo saxons did meaning the irish cluster more with north germans, dutch and scandinavians than they do to spaniards or french or italians

>>18218442
>what role do they play in crime in the north
Same as the rest of Ireland. Not unlike elsewhere, they're seen as a laugh/charming scoundrels but nobody wants to have a traveller camp *near* them.
>afraid of paramilitaries
I think lots of people misunderstand the role of paramilitaries today. There's two types:

>Dissident Republicans
Guys who reject the Good Friday Agreement, and who don't recognise NI as legitimate. Mostly just agitate in their own areas, VERY rarely carry out some sort of threat or "attack."
>Loyalist Paramilitaries
The UDA, UVF, etc never went away. Still active, but all they're really focused on is the drugs game-been that way since the 90s. They will burn a house out if it's in "their area" and they get word that Catholics live there or will be moving in, and they will orchestrate riots/unrest if a political development happens that they don't like.

However, unlike dissident Republicans, they have a legal face; the Loyalist Communites Council. The Government essentially funnels forever money into Loyalist Paramilitaries to help them "transition" from Paramilitaries to local community/political leaders, like Sinn Féin did with the IRA 30 years ago. It hasn't worked, and most of that money just goes straight into their pockets. But they aren't out on a campaign or actively targeting anyone specifically, just basically acting as the release valve for Loyalist autism.

>>18218500
>English people are more anglo saxon than irish people are celtic.

Irish people aren't Celtic they're Gaelic and overwhelmingly so but English are at most 30% Anglos Saxon. The bell beakers and Irish people being close to whoever doesn't matter. English people are not Anglo Saxons.

>genefags
Guess the thread is ruined. Everyone pack it up.

>>18218571
>English are at most 30% Anglos Saxon.
It’s actually as high as 47% and as low as 25%

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>>18218571
They speak an anglo saxon language, are anglo saxon culturally and cluster with anglo saxons
Ergo they are anglo saxons
seething taig

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Reminder that the Hibernian conspiracy is true. The real power struggle in the Labour government this year was fought between an Irishmen from Cork, who deposed a woman born to Irish immigrants.

Sue Gray
>born in London to Irish immigrants.
>Ran a pub in South Armagh during the troubles. The area was basically controlled by Provos and you could only run a small business without getting firebombed if you were in their good books.
>often regarded as a point of contact in London by Sinn Fein.
>famously torpedoed Boris’ career after he moved to backtrack & scrap the NI protocol in late 2021.
>strictly controlled access to PM while his chief of staff.
>was apparently obsessed with getting funding for bloated vanity project by Irish republicans in NI to refurbish a derelict GAA stadium in Belfast for 2028 Euros.

Morgan McSweeney
>born in Cork before moving to London age 17.
>got involved with Labour and helped fight against BNP in Barking & Dagenham in 2000’s. Labour “won” by mass bussing BAMEs into the borough reducing the white population from 80% to less than 50%.
>wife is from London but is now a Labour MP in Scotland (carpetbagger).
>ran Labour’s election campaign in 2024 with a successful strategy to essentially just achieve 30-40% of vote share in each constituency to win a landslide despite a relatively low share of the popular vote.
>looks like a basedjak.

In all seriousness I think the Irish diaspora in Britain isn’t given enough attention for their leftist & anti-native tendencies.

>>18218609
Genetically they're not anglo Saxon.

>They speak an anglo saxon language, are anglo saxon culturally

So do blacks in England like Ian Wright are they anglo Saxons too?

>>18218619
Blacks do not cluster with Anglo Saxons

>>18218616
>was apparently obsessed with getting funding for bloated vanity project by Irish republicans in NI to refurbish a derelict GAA stadium in Belfast for 2028 Euros.
I’ll never understand the Orange moaning about Casement Park given they seem happy enough to ignore Linfield, a Z-list football team no one outside the shankill gives a fuck about, get funding for Windsor Park all the time.
>but it’s for the national team too
I have not once ever heard anyone express an interest in the latest NI vs Macedonia game or whatever and the first, last and only player anyone can name is George Best.

>>18218625
Clustering near and being Anglo Saxon are two very different things. English people are not Anglo Saxons. There's no one in England even close to being fully anglo Saxon. I've not seen much ancestry test from English people but I doubt any have ever got 80% anglo Saxon or even Germanic on one.

"anglo-Saxon" is one of the most poisonous and anti white identities there is considering I only ever see people larping as Anglo Saxons online attacking other white ethnicities. Most English people wouldn't even identify with the anglo Saxons and just call themselves English and online those sort don't seem to attack others like the anglo larpers do and often they're extremely effete and snooty and pure cringe when they try to look down and shit on other euro ethnicities.

>>18218641
Casement Park is up the Falls Road, rebuilding it would generate a massive amount of interest and business in an area that is very firmly republican.

Unionists will permanently work to block it because they are angry about provos using it for events back in the day.

>>18218643
Tbh I’m Irish and I identify as an Anglo Saxon specifically because I fucking hate the continentals and as far as they’re concerned thats who we are, you included. It’s got nothing to do with the actual historical Anglo Saxons, it’s just the continental term for all the white people that speak English.

>>18218641
The latest game was against fucking Luxembourg and it was a completely meaningless game, yet Windsor Park was STILL almost at full capacity.

>>18218660
this is bullshit and you're retarded
"continentals" lmao

>>18218694
I live in France right now, I know more about the subject than you do.
Perceived Anglo differences are nothing compared to the brown hordes and these barbarians on the continent. The fact that the average Irishman that has not consecutively spent more than a week outside the Anglophone world or bothered learning a foreign language will nod their EU indoctrinated heads and say «I’m not an Anglo, I’m a European» is mere ignorance and prejudiced reflex. There are two civilisations in the west, and we are not Euro, we are Anglo.

>>18218660
>Tbh I’m Irish and I identify as an Anglo Saxon

You're not right in the head.

>>18218660
>and as far as they’re concerned thats who we are

They just can't tell the difference between the accents and if you told them you're Irish they'd not think you're English or Anglo-Saxon.

>>18218660
>it’s just the continental term for all the white people that speak English.

Anglo-phone is the term for English speakers. No one thinks all English speakers are anglo Saxon.

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This thread got really weird

Halpoautists pls go, even more unbearable trend on /his/ than the endless yank religion threads

>>18218709
>and if you told them you're Irish they'd not think you're English or Anglo-Saxon.
they will literally tell you to your face that it’s the same thing. And within their purview of what that even means, they’re not wrong. Ask yourself, looking at it from the outside, knowing nothing about the nuances of Irish history or regional accents, what exactly is the difference?
>No one thinks all English speakers are anglo Saxon.
That is literally the generic French term for white anglophones and you will hear the same general spirit from other continentals

>>18218719
>they will literally tell you to your face that it’s the same thing.

Bullshit. Maybe they're using anglo instead of Anglo-phone and you're mistaken not that I'd say you're basing it on much but one or two interactions.

>And within their purview of what that even means, they’re not wrong. Ask yourself, looking at it from the outside, knowing nothing about the nuances of Irish history or regional accents, what exactly is the difference?

They speak French in France, Belgium Luxembourg and parts of Switzerland yet if you met someone from Belgium speaking French and you thought they were French and were told they were Belgian are you going to think or say ah sure it's the same thing?

>>18218735
Belgium is half Dutch-speaking, Luxembourg and Switzerland are majority German-speaking. In Ireland only a very small minority speaks Gaelic.

>>18218735
https://aeon.co/essays/the-anglo-saxon-is-not-american-or-british-but-a-french-alter-ego
As the French use it «Les Anglo Saxons» has nothing to do with ethnic Englishness or affiliation with Inclusion. You’re an Anglo Saxon, I’m an Anglo Saxon. Barack Obama is an Anglo Saxon. Crocodile Dundee is an Anglo Saxon. Literally anyone from Britain, Ireland, America, Canada, Australia or New Zealand is an Anglo Saxon. It means speaking English, eating a large breakfast, small lunch, and an early dinner - usually with only one course each and in a prompt fashion. It means having a stiff upper lip. It means not arguing about politics or religion in public. It means drinking tea. It means when there’s drink going you’re serious about actually drinking it. And all of it is completely antithetical to the Euroid ethos.
You didn’t answer the question. Without going on about history or the minute differences in accent as if you could tell a Quebecer from a Provençal, what exactly is the apparent difference to outsiders?
>say ah sure it's the same thing?
Yeah.
They’d also probably agree. Its very un-Euroid to get assblasted about that kind of thing. More typical of the East or the Anglosphere.

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ireland history thread

Friendly reminder that keir starmer supported the ira in his communist youth groups as a teen
the real battle in britain is between on one side english, scottish and welsh right wingers, ulster loyalists and other dissidents and on the other the entire government, wogs, pakis, foreigners, lefties and irish republicans

>>18218822
>irish republicans

Irish Republicans have nothing to do with Britain. I note you never mentioned the jews too even though they're responsible for much of Britains problems. You never mentioned the British middle class who are probably your biggest opponents. You're too busy seething about people living on a different island to see your real problems and who is behind them.

>>18218822
back you go, oddball >>>/pol/

>>18218855
>lefties
>british middle class
Same thing you spastic
Irish Republicans marched side by side with pakis in the 80s and got the shit smacked out of them by skinheads

>>18218858
>Irish Republicans marched side by side with pakis in the 80s and got the shit smacked out of them by skinheads

Sure they did...

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>it's another "seething /pol/fag cries about the Irish" episode

Shizo stuff.
>>18218861
Probably did. Irish Republicans, especially by the latter half of the 20th Century, were firmly left wing.

Ignore that poster, he is extremely obsessed.

>>18218862
>Probably did. Irish Republicans, especially by the latter half of the 20th Century, were firmly left wing.

Shut the fuck up you dose.

>>18218862
>>18218861
>>18218865
taigs literally genocided cockneys in dagenham >>18218616
why are they so obessed with killing british people?

>>18218865
Anon, it's very true.

Irish Republicanism probably became the most left-wing it ever was in the period from 1960 to the 1990s. They liasoned with everyone from Militant Black groups in the USA to the North Koreans to the Soviets to Libya to Palestinians to all sorts.

They had black delegates from the civil rights movement in the US coming to Ireland to give talks and interviews in Sinn Féin offices. I'm not trying to trick you, this is just the history that's there.
>>18218871
cry about it faggot, you have been crying on this board for years and have yet to do anything but the digital equivilant of shitting yourself in public
every time

>>18218871
You're mentally ill.

>>18218871
>why are they so obessed with killing british people?

Payback for the 100,000 blond haired blue eyed Christian Germans who were murdered by British bombers in Dresden. English people still gloat about it.

>>18218873
>>18218882
taigs last year marched around trying to save wogs while ulster loyalist BVLLS rioted and burnt down their kebab shops

>>18218887
Did all that happen in your mind?

>>18218887
Go back >>>/pol/
I do not care about your racebaiting /pol/ niggery. I post history on the history board, you fight a culture war against a made up provo in your head.

>>18218888
>>18218889
Taig republicans blocked a street that ulster loyalists were trying to riot to
here's your "based ira" for you

>>18218896
Where's your evidence?

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>>18218913
Why bother engaging with a seething shizo?

Are you replying to yourself? Don't fall for /pol/bait you dunce kekked

Because self-determination doesn't only count for the "underdog" side.

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>>18218913
NTA, but would you really be surprised if they did? Not exactly a secret that Irish "nationalists" support replacement migration.

>>18218946
That's at some kind of anti racism event and not blocking the street to rioters like the other anon claimed. That image is from a completely different event and not connected. And it's no surprise to me that Sinn féin are faggots because I've known that for a long time. They're not Nationalists either they're Republicans. Republicanism is their ideology.

>>18212705
many bog-trotting turf-burning bead-rattling fenian taigs itt

FTP, FGAU, GSTK, KAI, WATP

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>>18219435

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>>18219435
Go get a haircut you dirty tramp

>>18219521
kys taig
>Almost immediately after the Battle of the Bogside, Devlin undertook a tour of the United States in August 1969, a trip which generated a significant amount of media attention. She met with members of the Black Panther Party in Watts, Los Angeles and gave them her support. She made appearances on Meet the Press and The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson. At a number of speaking events, she made parallels between the struggle in the US by African Americans seeking civil rights and Catholics in Northern Ireland, sometimes to the embarrassment of her audience. During an event in Philadelphia, she had to goad an African American singer to sing "We Shall Overcome" to the Irish-American audience, many of whom refused to stand for the song. In Detroit, she refused to take the stage until African Americans, who were barred from the event, were allowed in. In New York, Mayor John Lindsay arranged a ceremony to present Devlin with a key to the city of New York. Devlin, frustrated with conservative elements of the Irish-American community, left the tour to return to Northern Ireland and, believing the freedom of New York should go to the American poor, sent Eamonn McCann to present the key on her behalf to a representative from the Harlem chapter of the Black Panther Party.[14][15][16]

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>>18220144
>Loyal Orange Lodge 184, Manchester annual 12th of July parade 2025

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>>18220162
That's obviously in africa itself you absolute spastic. I knew taigs were dumb but i didn't know they were this retarded
Let's see how your "BASED RIGHT WING IRA" treats wogs then...

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>>18220207

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>>18220207

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>>18220349
>posts nogs in africa
>>18220371
>posts the woke anti white system ulser loyalists are fighting against
Taigs everybody

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>>18220671

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>>18220683
cope

>>18220757
>>18220683
>>18220671
>>18220371
>>18220349
>>18220207
>>18220162
>>18220144
>>18219521
>>18219516
>YOU LIKE BLACKS
>NO YOU LIKE BLACKS
>NO YOU

would you screaming bumboys kindly fuck off to >>>/pol/ instead of shitting up all these threads, as per usual.

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>>18220757

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>>18221253
KAT