Hiii!If my question seems stupid, I apologize everyone. but I'm asking a genuine question: why was this region completely ignored? I don't think the climate is a good reason because it's not very different from Iberia or Greece, and I'm not talking about Romans, French, or Greeks, but Bronze Age peoples. Why didn't they want to colonize this region? Could someone answer me? I'm new to this subject and I found it interesting. First time posting here 3:
>>18221409Are you referring to the interior? Because the North African coast was very well colonized.
>>18221434No it wasn't, none of them have r1a or r1b
>>18221434Hello! I'm talking about people from the Bronze Age.>>18221438I don't know what that is.
>>18221409>it's not very different from Iberia or GreecePretty sure neither Siberia nor Greece are not covered by the largest hot desert in the world. Unless you're only talking about the coastal regions, in which case those were settled by people for basically all of modern humanity's existence. There's evidence of habitation in Tunisia, for example going back hundreds of thousands of years. We don't know much about them because no writing systems and the desertification of the region, transforming it into the Sahara, occurred after the last glacial maximum. The Sahara used to be a savanna with a monsoon climate, supporting a wide variety of life, it is thought, but then the wind patterns changed and the monsoons disappeared, transforming it into a desert. The sand has covered over untold troves of artifacts that might exist. Even in Egypt, which has been heavily excavated for hundreds of years now, they're still digging entire cities out of the sand only a few miles from modern settlements. Scanning the entire Sahara with lidar is going to take generations, and even then finding evidence of prehistoric settlement is going to be likely impossible. The soonest they enter the historical record is during the bronze age, though, because the Egyptians had some contact with the Berbers and other tribes who lived in that strip of North African coast. This is like 13th century BC, so toward the end of the bronze age. According to Egyptian sources, what is now Tunisia and maybe Algeria were ruled over by kingdoms of fairly advanced people, enough that the Egyptians sent them envoys and traded with them. We don't know what happened after the late bronze age collapse, because literacy collapsed everywhere and Egypt withdrew into its shell and was much less in contact with the rest of the ancient world as it slowly spiraled into dynastic collapse. And Egypt was one of the lucky ones from that period, since their culture survived somewhat.
>>18221442>SiberiaMeant Iberia, obviously.
>>18221409European immigrants introduced farming to the Maghreb and been going there since.>Ib4 Moor copingRemember Nafri white daddy is protecting you from nigger wewuzzers.
>>18221434>literally says BRONZE AGE>shows map of the IRON AGE>of PHOENICIAN colonies aka NOT indo europeanyou're not very intelligent
>>18221451berbers are/were brown as fuck, literally pajeet lookingso you're a coping moor>Remember Nafri white daddy is protecting you from nigger wewuzzers.nafri are the nigger wewuzzer in question, since you're brown as fuck but we wuzzing as white
>>18221409the climate was shit and the local north africans were ugly as fuck
>2k25>nafrigroids still trying to convince you berbers were huwite before arab slave tradesigh
>>18221443>>18221442Idiot, she's talking about the North African coast, which is Mediterranean, not desert. I bet you're American.
OP hereGuys, I don't understand what these numbers are, but I think you're going off-topic
>>18221459The word "coast" doesn't appear anywhere in the OP. They referred to the North African region, and posted a map of the entire region, which is mostly the Sahara.
>>18221462aryans can't swim and by land it's too far away
>>18221462>ask for information about stuff that happened before the historical record>surprised when you get genetic evidenceYou asked for this.
>>18221459the majority of the north african coast isn't truly "mediterranean", it resembles at best sicily and southwest iberia that are almost desertic, most of southern europe isn't like that
>>18221462They're retarded monkeys. Since you said it's your first time posting here, know that this is common. You talk about subject A and retarded users from India>>18221451 talk about B. You talk about people X and they talk about people Y. Don't use /his/ and get out of here as fast as possible.
>>18221459lol North Africa is not "Mediterranean" except in a couple locations, it's a fucking desert.
>>18221409it's almost like there's a body of water inbetween europe and north africa
>>18221409>OP doesn't know what a sea is
>>18221473Actually, it is. You're simply retarded; you tried and tried to write a giant, useless text that explained absolutely nothing. The climate is Mediterranean, since Only the northern and southern extremities of the continent have a Mediterranean climate.
>>18221409>because it's not very different from Iberia or Greecethe climate of north africa is very different from greece, as for iberia, some parts of north africa are similar to the Tabernas Desert of iberia mostly, not to the rest of iberia
>>18221476Read, murican tard>>18221482
>>18221482no, it's more like a transitional climate between saharan and mediterranean
>>18221481I know very well what an ocean is, and I also know very well that the distance between the British Isles and Morocco and Spain is not very great, therefore this argument does not hold up.>>18221485I didn't know that all the voices would focus on this aspect, it's a shame.But no, the coasts are described as being Mediterranean.
>>18221487look up the Tabernas Desert in south iberia, that's the kind of "mediterranean" climate of coastal north africa
>>18221488>noYes
>>18221491>But no, the coasts are described as being Mediterranean.again, there are different types of mediterranean, they are mediterranean as much as the Tabernas Desert in iberia is mediterranean (that is also called mediterranean)
>>18221495I don't need to research anything. The climate has Mediterranean aspects
>>18221497so you're just stupid, mediterranean climate has a lot of subcategories, the north african one is borderline saharan
OP once again, can someone help me with how to delete the post? Nobody seems to be able to follow the main topic. I see this place isn't different from Reddit, but I can't delete it.
>>18221500You're a retard that doesn't want any to hear any nuance, it's "mediterranean", but borderline, just like the Tabernas Desert
>>18221502>mediterranean climate has a lot of subcategoriesGood monkey, i accept your concession with honor. So yes, you assume there's definitely a Mediterranean climate there. By that logic, you should also vomit like a whore if someone says that the climate of Anatolia and Spain are both Mediterranean. I win.
>>18221505it's not the same climate that you have in anatolia, greece, or most of italy and spain even if both could be called mediterranean, it's a different type of mediterranean climate, more arid and more desert-like
It's a shame that this retarded American ended this girl's thread, kill them, sons of bitches. This isn't a geography threadfor the OP only>Why didn't they want to colonize this regionThis premise is wrong. Why? Because perhaps you are reducing the evidence to a single focus. If you are expecting a large-scale migration with a change of language, it didn't actually happen. But I'm sure there are some indications of contact between Bronze Age peoples and North Africa, mainly Morocco, and if I'm not mistaken, there's a burial bell beaker in that region. Now, the reason might be that Iberia was what stopped these migrations. When they arrived in Iberia, they weren't really "Indo-European" in the strict sense; they already had completely EEF ancestry and were culturally assimilated
>>18221505>A semi-arid Mediterranean climate is characterized by hot, dry summers and cold winters, representing another of Algeria's climatic zonesit's mostly semi-arid Mediterranean
>>18221515It's not purely mediterranean, it's a more arid and desert-like version just as i said, i was right and OP is a faggot
>>18221514Finally someone tried to answer, thank you! 3: If I understood correctly, you're telling me that there were no Indo-Europeans in Iberia? And I don't know what EEF or Bell Beakers means. Did the Yamnaya not migrate to Iberia? Is that what you're telling me? Sorry for my ignorance.
>>18221497Mediterranean* its over
>>18221514>>18221409You retard, you literal retard, it's because the steppe people were, as the name implies, from the steppe, they were used to the vast plains of the steppes, it was already a stretch reaching iberia or italy, the steppe people there were already quite diluted, now compare late bronze age steppe people in mongolia or xinjiang or khazakstan, literally almost pure corded ware despite further away from corded ware core regions than italy and spain, the steppe people were much better at traversing the steppes and plains
>>18221518These are acronyms that people use; when you search for more academic sources you will come across them: EEF = Early European Farmers, these were the people who inhabited Europe before the expansions; WSH (Western Steppe Harders).>yamnaya Yamnaya did not migrate to Iberia, OP. I think you still associate Indo-Europeans with Yamnaya, but it's not quite like that. Let's say things are more complex. The Yamnaya themselves branched out into several cultures, but for this thread, the Indo-European peoples who migrated to Iberia before the Celtic groups were the Bell Beakers, who are actually more recent than the Yamnaya, and their ancestors may be the Corded Ware, who are in fact the vector of most cultures in Europe and Central Asia. But what I mean is that already in the LBA (Late Bronze Age), these Indo-Europeans were all mixed with farmers, so when they arrived in Iberia there were no more Indo-Europeans in the strict sense.
>>18221525OP still hasn't replied to this, he's afraid
>>18221534Thank you for the information. Yes, I didn't know that, thank you, I'll look it up later>>18221525>retardI don't intend to pay attention to those who insult me. Ignored, I won't read it
>>18221540Don't worry about it, but remember that this wasn't a definitive "reason," it's just a possibility, because these "bell beakers" from Iberia weren't really ethnic bell beakers. But if you want to start reading, I recommend you read Mallory. By the way, are you a woman? You use a lot of emojis and write kind of strangely.
>>18221491>I know very well what an ocean is, and I also know very well that the distance between the British Isles and Morocco and Spain is not very great, therefore this argument does not hold up.the distance from morocco and north africa is only "not very great" in 1 single small section, the gibraltar strait, while the french/britain distance is always not very great
>>18221545Thank you for the recommendation, I'll look for Mallory's books at the nearest bookstore Do they have Polish translations? And yes, I'm a woman. But does that matter? In short, are you telling me that these beakers were so mixed that they were mostly Indo-European? Is that basically it?
>>18221540>I don't intend to pay attention to those who insult me. Ignored, I won't read itwhiny bitch
>>18221550>But does that matter?Of course nah..Just a question
>>18221409See the honesty and innocence in this girl, I'll go easy on her OP, ignore this retard>>18221534 he's as dumb as the pair of wimps above.By this logic, even Corded Ware wouldn't be Aryan because they possessed 30% agricultural ancestry. And by the middle of the Bronze Age, homogenization was already formed, and all Indo-European peoples possessed 35% farming ancestry and a little bit of WHG (pre-agricultural peoples, cannibalistic forest elves).In fact, we have some genetic evidence of introgression of Bell Beaker peoples into North African populations. I'll post the study soon, wait for it
>>18221561this is the reason >>18221525thread should have ended with my comment
OP here, forgot to mention I'm transnot sure if it matters...
>>18221565we knew that already
>>18221566uwu
>>18221565You're not me
>>18221569>doesn't deny being a tranny
>>18221563You're also retard>>18221561
all you attention whoring bitches do is talk about being a girl and being "so nervous" about "posting here for the first time!" you're not special. if you have to go out of your way to attach the fact that you were born with a pussy in an anonymous website that has nothing to do with it then you should probably work on yourself so you can get prettier and then maybe men would notice you out of the internet. fat bitch
>>18221579i knew you would have posted the guanche, that tell us nothing about the mainland of north africa, that had like 5% steppe or less
>>18221409But in fact, there is a Bell Beaker presence in North Africa, mainly in Morocco. We'll discuss the implications of this later. We also know that Bell Beakers sailed along North Africa and settled there, so it isn't far-fetched to hypothesize that they discovered and settled the Macaronesia islands first.Actually, some north african communities spoken languages related to iberian languages such as Tartessian or Basque. I will focus on archaeological aspects here. In the earliest phase of coastal sites in northern Morocco (Gar Cahal and Kahf-Taht-el-Gar), we find similarities with the Tagus estuary in Portugal. The Bell Beaker culture flourished along the Moroccan coast and extended even inland to the Middle Atlas Mountains and south of Oran (western Algeria). [Related photo]
>>18221589Thank you for your response; it was by far the most helpful and humane one I've received here. Do we know anything else?>>18221561thanks for the correction
>>18221573Loser
>>18221589>But in fact, there is a Bell Beaker presence in North Africa, mainly in Moroccoonly material not genetic for the most part>Actually, some north african communities spoken languages related to iberian languages such as Tartessian or Basque.this is not true and basque is literally not indo european so even if it was true it wouldn't matter in this context
>>18221589berber is completely unrelated to basque, it's an afro asiatic language, more related to chadic languages than to basque
>Do we know anything else?Yes. >>18221589Cont... The Maghreb region has been involved in a trade network with the Iberian Peninsula since the Neolithic period; this is not unprecedented. Ivory and ostrich eggs have been found at numerous Chalcolithic sites in the south of the Iberian Peninsula. At the same time, a significant number of Bell Beaker-type pottery and Iberian metal weapons have been discovered at western Moroccan/Algerian sites.
>>18221589pottery does not equal people
>>18221603pots don't equal people
because white people were enslaved in North Africa
>>18221589>some north african communities spoken languages related to iberian languages such as Tartessian or Basque. source? also why is this related to bell beaker necessarily? those languages were spoken before bell beaker languages in iberia
>>18221603Cont..Something that caught my attention is that the local production of Bell Beaker-type pottery is also well established. Not solely through trade, as we can see from the discovery of a toothed comb in the Kehf Taht el Ghar cave (more details later).In short, the Moroccan Atlantic coast served as a source of ivory, exported mainly to the Guadalquivir, the Tagus River, and the Algarve region, and we know that bell beakers created a very large trade network in Europe.
>>18221603>Bell Beaker artefacts appear in mainland Greece and the Aegean from c.2200–2000 BC. According to Heyd (2013) and Maran (1998) this is explained by the movement of people from the Adriatic Cetina culture into Greece at the transition from Early Helladic II to III. bell beaker pottery has a wider area of diffusion than bell beaker ancestry, since pottery is influenced by trade, for example, greece has bell beaker pottery even tho they didn't have bell beaker ancestry
>>18221616>pottery this pottery thatwho cares? show us proof of north african groups speaking basque languages
>>18221616Cont...This particular pottery is often found alongside Palmela points, a typical Iberian weapon. In addition to these copper objects, including awls, we have a flat copper axe from the 3rd millennium BC.in Aïn Smene (near there is also a Cypriot pin with a knot-shaped head and a Palmela point from the end of the 3rd millennium BC, but this is important because it is unique, of oriental origin and not found in the Iberian Peninsula proper, it seems that it had possible trade links between France and Morocco.
>>18221624you think people are not going to notice you're acting like a bot without engaging with others because you said a bunch of bullshits about north africans speaking basque languages and having a lot of beaker ancestry that you can't prove
>>18221628not him but I was there at that time and can confirm that he is right
>>18221631anything else we should know about bronze age nafris?
>>18221631i was there too, i was the guy that rearranged your insides with my 9 incher, don't know if you remember me
>>18221624Cont...And it seems that El Argar had very close contacts with Morocco, there are types of halberds represented, types I, IIa and IIb, halberds in the style of El Argar, axes in the style of Carrapatas. An Argaric bronze axe was discovered at Wadi Akrech.Kharrouba axe belongs to the "Neyruz" or "La Polada" type, widespread in the Early BA of Switzerland and Italy, Iberian influences possibly explain the presence of the cremation rite in W. Algeria/E. Morocco, there's even The influences of Late Bronze Age and early European Iron Age can also be seen in the traditional Berber goldsmithing decorations,
>>18221635yes, you was that woman with nine inch blade(sharpen it next time)it hurt a lot but I got better, sorry if you still salty, should not sleep with your sisters >>18221634their cities get buried under mud and so most of it lost and archaeologist don't dig deep enough
>>18221640In short, yes, not only did the Bell Beakers have a presence in North Africa, but we also have evidence of connections dating back to the Neolithic period. And for the idiots, I'll spare you the trouble of directly answering them because I see the stupidity emanating from here.1) At NO point was it said that the languages of Morocco are the same as those spoken in southern Iberia. What was said is that communities in Morocco could have spoken Iberian dialects.2) At NO point was it said that North Africa was Indo-European at any point.If that's what matters. To conclude, what may have led to this Bell Beaker influence in the area can be explained. Perhaps we are dealing with mercenary chieftains. The Indo-Europeans of southern Europe definitely had a culture of plunder and a class of highly mobile, professional warriors who practiced their craft everywhere.
>>18221580?
>>18221667>What was said is that communities in Morocco could have spoken Iberian dialects.proof?
>>18221603>>18221616>>18221624>>18221640>>18221667Wow! I didn't know any of that, thank you for the information, you helped me. I've always liked the archaeological aspect more than linguistics or genetics (which I personally understand practically nothing about). I appreciate your comments; maybe posting isn't so useless after all.Thinking about it, I think the idea of them being mercenaries is plausible.
>>18221667no you said that they spoke languages related to basque, now you're backtracking to "may have"(aka you have no proof that they did, so they didn't)
>>18221667do you have a study saying that communities in north africa spoke tartessian and basque?
To the idiot who's sameflagging, keep begging for attention. I won't play this game; since the beginning of my posts I've seen a nauseating disdain and denial without cause for some reason. I don't deal with this nonsense because I think I know which user this is. But for everyone who is actually interested in archaeology and not putting words in other people's mouths like illiterate retards with low knowledge of literature due to dropping out of school, here is the article. https://www.academia.edu/37728723/The_peopling_of_the_Canaries_new_data_and_new_hypothesesDon't put words in other people's mouths, because that's retarded.
>>18221697>academia.edupre print, not actual studies
>>18221680You're welcome :)actually this is already well known by anyone who is impartial in all this and is not desperately tormented by something with a desire to troll everything like the fetuses above, and since you mentioned mercenaries, I forgot to say that (later) some Celtiberian mercenaries even settled in North Africa.But I don't think you're talking about that.
>>18221697Interesting article, I wouldn't be surprised by that honestly, as you rightly said there is evidence of cultural exchange between both and the Tartessian civilization was relevant enough to be mentioned even in the Bible damn Iberians are really superhuman bulls
>>18221707Stop samwfagging, that paper is a pre print, everyone can post stuff on academia edu, there's no actual proof of north Africans speaking tartessian languages
>>18221708Fuck off, adults are talking now
>>18221462I'm gonna speenfood youThis is currently one of the worst places for historical discussion online at surface. It paradoxically also holds some of the best, but you have to dig for gold amongst shit. I recommend you to use the archives to browse through old threads. Just google "4chan archive search" and a very useful tool for browsing through different archive sites shows up.The graph the retards who are replying to you posted is about genetic distance between races or ethnicities/sub races, whatever they call it. In simple terms, it triggers retarded discussion in which each individual poster will fight to see who is closer to being the most aryan ever and accuse each other of being brown and inferior. Some of them are genuine schizophrenics, others are just indians derailing threads on purpose like the other anon pointed out. Avoid using the terms:>haplogroups>indoeuropean>PIE>phenotype>yamnaya>steppe>EHG>and others I can't remember right now which you will eventually learn are related to these retardsSo your thread does not get derailed by attracting these posters. Also avoid religious topics entirely.In short, no unfortunately, you can't have normal civilized discussion about anything related to european hunter gatherer societies in this board.Better luck with your next thread.
>>18221711Shut the fuck up retard, you said some bullshit and were btfo for that
>>18221697See >>18221589You said >Actually, some north african communities spoken languages related to iberian languages such as Tartessian or Basque.You didn't say "may have spoken" you said that they spoke Iberian languages, also do you understand that academia edu is just a repository for pre prints?
>>18221707>evidence of cultural exchange between both and the Tartessian civilizationIn fact, there is much more to explore. Research the archaeological site of Kach Kouch. The site has some Tartessian influence, mainly from indigenous and Tartessian pottery and even Phoenician fragments from the 8th to 6th centuries BC. Clearly it wasn't a Tartessian colony or anything like that, but there was influence on the region, It's a shame that the Tartessian civilization isn't studied more thoroughly.
>>18221720How did the Tartessians really disappear? It seems like literally out of nowhere. I don't think they fell like the Hittites or anything like that.
>>18221697Looks kino
>>18221724I don't know of any relevant articles on this, but the Casas del Turuñuelo have two large complexes that were deliberately burned, and sacrificial animals (horses, cattle) and valuable goods were buried under thick layers of earth. This also occurred with the Trypillia-Cucuteni civilization, perhaps as a final and decisive act before abandonment? Who knows?
>>18221713The annoying tards made the girl leave thread They scared her off at first, and she had to deal with these idiots, haha.
>>18221720>Kach Kouch.have genetic studies been done there? are there human remains at the site?
>>18221697I can't access
>>18221738>geneticApparently not.>>18221741What exactly is the problem?
>>18221742Forget it, I already got it, I'm reading the article.
>>18221701I understood>>18221713HellooWow, I think I understand how it works lmao I just wanted to understand why people got so aggressive with me if I didn't do anything, and why people don't let each other finish their reasoning without ad hominem interruptions But I don't think I'll post here again.there's a user here with personal issues with me, even though I've never spoken to him before.>>18221734No, this user in question>>18221589answered my questions from the thread, but I appreciate the concern 3;
>>18221764Samefagging troon
>>18221747Don't worry, it's just a useless preprint that dedicates two lines to some bullshit hypothesis without backing it up
>>18221771>>18221771What is sameffaging and I'm not trans, are you finished or do you want to insult me with something else? What's the allowed age to post here, by the way?
>>18221742>Apparently not.sad. Big pothole
>>18221775I found the article quite relevant, actually stop trolling
>>18221776Samefagging would be what he's doing here.See.>>18221685>>18221681a schizophrenia so significant and insecure that the person simply pretends to be someone else in order to agreewith his precepts.
>>18221776Bro was beaten up by 3 people here, he wants attention and will call me samefagging. Where are u from, young lady???
>>18221788it's not an article, it's a pre print and the section about the tartessian languages are 2 lines without any proof to back it up
>>182217912 different people, you're coping, samefagging and projecting, you made a dumb statement, it's to be expected that multiple people would ask you for some shred of proof>>18221794you're still samefagging btw
>>18221697Is that R1b EEF related to this?
>>18221794>3 people hereyou are OP, 1 person not 3, your childish style of talking is too recognizable
>>18221803Obviously not This R1B is pre-Tartessian, which is at most, MIA.
>>18221803No.
>>18221803why do you keep replying to yourself? trying to make it seem as if your shit generates interest in the sub? it's over, this is some pre print only worth as much as toilet paper, there's no proof any population in north africa spoke tartessian
>>18221409Who said they didn't? Bell Beakers migrated to North Africa in insignificant numbers
>>18221810what r1b is he even talking about in his semefag reply? the pre print he posted doesn't mention any r1b, he's really schizophrenic
>>18221810>sub
>>18221814>doesn't deny my statementsamefag OP...
>>18221810>why do you keep replying to yourself?>>18221808>MIAWtf
>>18221817not op senpai
>>18221818Mia=middle iron age.>>18221812Where did you get this map
>>18221818here we go with the easily edited screenshots
>>18221821From xiiter
>>18221822Go fuck yourself annoying troll
>>18221834asking you to provide evidence for your claim is not trolling
>>18221839Monkey, I didn't post the article and I didn't even read it, but I will read it. Apparently you didn't like it very much, you've already got my attention. The last word is mine.
>>18221764Sardinian girl?
>>18221854cope, you're the samefag that posted it
>>18221856Sardine girl, the little, hasn't posted here in a year She was the female version of the Frisian, but instead of being penguins from the Steppe she was like disgusting EEFoids. But I assume she knew a little, unlike this new girl here who doesn't know shit but she's Polish s must be beautiful.
>>18221812Bell Beakers in Poland ?
>>18221879their pottery
>>18221879Yes, they migrated there.
>>18221888I assume that this marginal influence in the Balkans is paralleled by what is found in Cetina culture, am I correct?
>>18221896>cetinaI'm skeptical, but yes, the author was referring to that I read an old article about a Bell Beaker burial in the region, but I can't find it, so don't take what I'm saying seriously There are, in fact, Bell Beaker funeral traditions, one directly CWC (single grave) and another communal one that is still poorly explained.
>>18221764They have no personal issues, this imageboard has been like this for a long time. Insulting each other for no reason is kind of part of the culture
>>18221597t.roon
>>18221409They tried, but were almost entirely exterminated, leaving only a few survivors who fled south and settled around Lake Cameroon.
>>182214381/5 of North Africans have R1b you delusional ape.
