Why does meso and South America make so many here seeth?
They won't tell us the truth
>>18231417What even is that
>>18231425A Quipu. A wearable book that the Chileans refuse to teach others their content.
>>18231401Because muh spics bad and /pol/cels are only interested in history connected to their identity because they are fragile underachievers.
>>18231417Quipu, the Andean's weird alternative to writing. The color and length of strings, as well as the size and position of knots in them conveys information like a book. They're very ancient and were very common but they've still never been deciphered and probably never will.>>18231435This. The board is full of children and schizos now and the extent of their interest in history is just "MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDDADDY COULD BEAT UP YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDDADDY!"This used to be the best board on the site. I fucking hate it here now but I don't know where else to go for fully uncensored and free history discussion.
>>18231401Because the fact that native americans (a race isolated from the rest of the world) developed civilization completely on their own with no outside influence, creates a huge cognitive dissonance in the retarded world view of /pol/trannies, shitspanistas and other obnoxious faggots, so they just chimp out in rage because it's all they can do
>Be aztec>have water temple that collects water from rain god>also create service stations for fresh water on the shore from fresh water creeks >tons of people were probably told the water in the lake was purified by their god or something and drank from it anyway and used it to cook>they had private wells on their islands where the water table was 3 inches below the surface >their islands were made from muck hauled out of the water and fertilized with their own feces in mud supported by trees >uh actually there were giant aqueducts made out of wood lined with clay, no, ceramic pipes, and they delivered water to everybody because Cortes said so>Actually *something barely coherent about mortar more advanced than the egyptians being used to make aqueducts more advanced than the egyptians*>basically roman era aqueducts >try and look them up>get spanish aqueducts >*scratches head*
>>18232712>tons of people were probably told the water in the lake was purified by their god or something and drank from it anyway and used it to cookDo you think other people of that time didn't drink water from lakes rivers and creeks?>uh actually there were giant aqueducts made out of wood lined with clay, no, ceramic pipes, and they delivered water to everybody because Cortes said soYes, Cortez said so, as well as dozens of other first hand witnesses, maps, and contemporary documents.>>try and look them up>get spanish aqueducts>*scratches head*Yeah because they're not there anymore retard, you're not gonna find pictures of the colossus of rhodes eitherReminder everyone, these are the kinds of people you're talking to on here. Primary sources don't matter because muh feelings, I know better than people who literally saw these things firsthand
>>18232712>>try and look them up>>get spanish aqueducts >>*scratches head*have you read a book about the conquest? spaniards destroyed the aqueducts to starve tenochtitlan
>>18233185more like he broke a dike and flooded it
>>18233188The water on the Tenochtitlan side of the dike of Nezahualcoyotl was higher than it was on the opposite side so when the floodgates were opened the dirty city water would flow out, that was the whole point of it
>>18232712>i think that this one extremely specific thing that is just as well-attested in all the historical records from the time as all the things i AM willing to believe never akshually existed because...it didn't stay perfectly intact for 500 years of urban growth and everchanging dynamics as well as a destructive siege at the start of it (and also because of my own retarded headcanon on how this society worked based on nothing but pop culture stereotypes)damn nigga are you autistic or something? might as well start doubting the lake was ever a thing
>>18232712>>18233181>>18233185>>18233374Beyond what other anons have said here about why you're being dumb, even if there's not significant surviving prehispanic remains of the main aqueduct due to the Spanish rebuilt version replacing it, there's still some ruins of the spring site it sourced water from at Chapultepec, and there's plenty of ruins of aqueduct and channel systems at Texcotzinco and running to it from the springs it sourced water from around Mount TlalocIf we have ruins of the Texcotzinco waterworks showing that it's 5+ miles long, rose 150 feet above ground at some points, had a system of pools and channels to regulate it's flow rate, that then flowed through various shrines, pools, and fountains, why is the 5ish mile long aqueduct running from Chapultepec to Tenochtitlan so hard to believe?
>>18233567>why is the 5ish mile long aqueduct running from Chapultepec to Tenochtitlan so hard to believe?brown bad
>>18233567>We know this existed>How>*The subhuman points at Spanish aqueducts*>No, subhuman, those were created by white people, like all your pretend culture>*Subhuman points to all the concrete used on mexican pyramids*>Subhuman, that's modern concrete from the 1920's, all your monuments were completely ruined when the Spanish showed up. >NOOOOOO, THE AZTEC USED HYPER ADVANCED CONCRETE TO MAKE AQUEDUCTS JUST LIKE THEIR TEMPLES THATS WHY WE REBUILD THE TEMPLES WITH CONCRETE, ITS ACCURATE>STOP BEING RACIST
>>18232518>fully uncensored and free history discussionOr where you don't have to pay money on the website and where the political baggage and censorship is bad. Slowly this board has become increasingly more anti-intellectual over time it's becoming tedious /pol/tards are making it so that you are constantly on the defense of the truth and real history that they don't care about.
>>18234563spaniards are nonwhite negroid mongrels
>>18234563he never said that>all your monuments were completely ruined when the Spanish showed up. they weren't though
>>18234621I'm just summarizing what the average 80 IQ mexican pop history scholar thinks or is taught in their public schools. Mexicans 100% point at the modern concrete used in all their pyramids as proof that the aztecs had hyper advanced mortar technology. It's like planet of the apes or something
>>18234563>all your monuments were completely ruined when the Spanish showed up. What the actual fuck are you talking about nigger, the Spaniards very clearly described encountering a fully functional, bustling Mesoamerican world whose monuments were all pretty and painted and under active use and maintenanceAre you one of those retards who think that Teotihuacan and Tenochtitlan are the same place or is it some other kind of retardation i'm unfamiliar with
>>18234647what are the odds Tenochtitlan wasn't built by aztecs
>>18234643>I was merely pretending to be retardedSure. We got that you are angry at meso american history for some made-up reason, you can leave now.
>>18234647>the Templo Mayor complex in Tenochtitlan has multiple buried construction phases, with archaeologists uncovering older layers (seven in total) that show the temple was enlarged and rebuilt over time
>>18234656The mexican mythos of the aztecs is so fragile I wouldn't doubt the aztecs crushed some minor island civilization and then claimed it as their own >the islands and areas around Lake Texcoco were inhabited by various peoples and cultures before the Mexica (Aztecs) arrived
>>18234648None really, they outright state they were the ones who built it in both their origin myth and their histories and the archaeological evidence generally lines up with the dates they claimed, and even if they somehow weren't the ones who literally *founded* the settlement that would later become the city from scratch, they'd still be the ones responsible for building all the pretty stone pyramids and monuments and generally lifting up the place from a backwater swamp village to one of the largest cities in the region's history, thus making such a fact useless for whatever conspiracy you were planning on building in your mind>>18234657That doesn't prove your point retard, it literally does the exact oppositeWhat you're reading is a description of a common Mesoamerican practice. When a city grew in power and wealth they ofteb "enlarged" their existing temples by literally building on and around the existing ones, thus creating "layers" of temples like a nesting doll. You can see the same phenomenon on several Maya temples and one of the pyramidal at Teotihuacan. The text you posted doesn't imply that the monuments were "in ruins" when the spanish showed up, they're proof that the Aztecs were actively using and improving them
>>18234608>muh /pol/tards!Faggot. About a quarter of the threads on the catalog are anti-white spam threads. Always. Don't forget that offsite politics obsessed faggots identified /his/ as a 'weak link' for political astroturfing. What a coincidence that every 'this board sucks' post neglects to mention that. It reminds me of /qa/ a few months after it was created. All the regulars realized it was a completely worthless board, but offsite fags thought that it meant they could actually beg the moderation to delete /pol/.
>>18234664>they outright state they were the ones who built itOf course they would >they enlarged their templesThey also used the same practice when the conquered another culture. So the thing we associate with success in mesoamerica, monuments, are also what mexicans woudl immediately cover with another layer of stones to show their superioritywouldn't it be funny if the reason sites like Teotihuacan were abandoned because the temples grew to large to economically re-cover I say all this to say, what if the earliest temples in the aztec complex weren't aztec? Would you still believe their story?
>>18234658The "mexican mythos of the aztecs" makes regular mentions of those peoples and cultures of Lake Texcoco. In fact they're integral to all of it. The Mexica origin that they were given an empty island to settle on by one of the major city-states around the lake at the time, a story that is never contested by any of the non-mexica sources that survive.>>18234674>They also used the same practice when the conquered another culture. No they didn't. When the Aztecs conquered a polity, they turned it into a tributary state that kept all its institutions and most of its autonomy intact, they did not actively or directly administer them in any way. The most they did to an enemy's temple was burn the main one and take away the idols within during the actual conquest itself, they did not build another layer around them.You also appear to have a misguided view of how postclassic central mexican historiography works. The Mexica are far from the only ones who left behind their accounts of history. The Tlaxcaltecs, the Otomis, and many of the states around the lake like Texcoco all left their own records, and they never mention a city-state existing on the island Tenochtitlan would be built on before the Mexica arrived.Also, you're moving the goalposts. You have yet to prove that the their monuments "were in ruins when the spaniards showed up".
>>18234695>they were given an empty island>multiple sources say the islands were inhabited before the mexica arrived
>>18234710Which ones exactly? That quote you posted? That doesn't say that the specific island Tenochtitlan was on had people in it beforehand, it's a general quote referring to the entire Lake Texcoco region, which obvious had plenty of people it, including in many other cities and towns built on other islandsStill waiting for proof that the monuments were in ruins when the Spanish showed up by thw way
>>18234717>Pre-Aztec archaeological finds in the Tenochtitlan area (modern Mexico City) reveal earlier cultures, with discoveries including a 2,400-year-old burial of skeletons in spiral formations (Preclassic period) near Tlalpan, evidence of an ancient Teotihuacan settlement near Chapultepec, and earlier settlements suggesting the region was inhabited long before the Mexica founded Tenochtitlan in the 1300s. These finds, often unearthed during excavations for the Templo Mayor and other construction, highlight complex ritual practices, sophisticated pottery (sgraffito tecomates), and long-distance trade networks (like slate from the Gulf Coast) from these older civilizations
>>18234721>tructures from Tenochtitlan, revealing temples (likeTemplo Mayor), causeways, and homes, but also surprising pre-Aztec artifacts, such as Mezcala culture figurines found in Aztec offerings, indicating cultural continuity and reuse of older sacred objectsMezcala cultureThe culture is poorly understood but is believed to have developed during the Middle and Late Preclassic periods of Mesoamerican chronology,[1] between 700 and 200 BC.[2] The culture continued into the Classic period (c.250-650 AD) when it coexisted with the great metropolis of Teotihuacan.
>>18234721Neither Tlalpan nor Chapultepec were part of pre-columbian Tenochtitlan or the island it was on, they are both regions that became part of Mexico City due to 20th century urban growth and were part of the mainland in pre-columbian times. All that quote manages to prove is that, again, there weee people in the region around Lake Texcoco, which isn't something anyone is contestingAnd even there were cavemen living in the area in the preclassic period (that's thousands of years before the Aztecs), it again does not suggest there was an entire pre-aztec city-state on the island immediately before the Mexica arrived, which all the non-mexica people living in rhe region would logically be sure to mentionAnd also, still waiting on the proof of universally ruined monuments when the spanish arrived
>>18234745Things get put into perspective where there were already 50 thriving civilizations around the lake before the mexicans showed up. All I'm proposing is that the "empty" islands the mexicans were given weren't actually empty at all and contained temples from an earlier era which they build on top of
>>18234753Things don't get put into perspective though. No one whose opinion on the subject matters thinks that there weren't civilizations around the lake before the Aztecs showed up (it was far from 50 btw, in the late postclassic it was basically just the Nahuas and Otomis). The Mexica literally say it themselves that when they arrived they found pre-existing cities and civilizationMy point here is, there is no reason to believe in your little theory. None of what you said proves that any of the templo mayor's layers are pre-aztec, nor have given anyone a single good reason as to why none of the non-mexica native sources ever mention this pre-mexica island city of yours, or why the Mexica would lie about it when they as a people were quite proud of being conquerors, and were objectively the ones who turned the place into a worthwhile settlement so why would they hide that they weren't the ones who built the earliest pyramids (which were earthen mounds btw). basically, you're trying to fight history with unrelated prehistory mixed with your own misconceptions
>>18234670They're not anti white threads. They're bait threads specifically designed to annoy polfaggots.
>>18234778The foundations of the Templo Mayor predate the aztecs by hundreds or thousands of years
>>18232712>because cortez said so what reason would he have to lie? he raped and murdered and pillaged them, why would he lie about their accomplishments?
>>18234798>why would this 100% obvious liar lie imagine being a mexican and this being your history lol.
>>18234794
>>18234800Why would the man who crushed and clearly did not respect mesoamerican societies, lie about their apparent non-existent infrastructure? He thought they were savages. If anything, he'd be more likely to lie about them NOT having infrastructure or civilisation. You're not even trying to discuss this though. Dumb /pol/faggot.
>>18234819why would mexicans latch onto the idea of there being hyper advanced roman era aqueducts in a primitive bog culture that dug canals through mud and built dikes to lower the lake level
>>18234822why are you talking about complex infrastructure projects as if they were stereotypical ooga booga behavior on par with chucking spears
>>18234819you're wrong because brown bad and mexicans are flooding my amerishart ethnostate or however the 10th weekly school shooting happens o algo
>>18234827Well even temple construction which thirdies hold over the heads of western civilization was built using conscripted labor. It's not too hard to conceive of covering preexisting temples with gravel fill and then recovering them with cut stone when at a moment's notice you can have a majority of your population working on it. To claim that this was so advanced that you don't need a single shred of physical evidence for roman era concrete is laughable
>>18234794But they don't. Again, pre-aztec habitation of of parts of MODERN Mexico City that belonged to entirely different polities in the pre-columbian period is not proof that this one specific building is hundreds of years older than the Aztecs. Not even Wikipedia, the only source you seem to be citing, makes the claim that any of the Templo Mayor's layers pre-dates Aztec times.>The first of seven temples built on the Templo Mayor site was built in 1325,[1] and the second temple existed by 1375.[7] In 1454, the largest known expansion of the temple took place under the guidance of Moctezuma I.[8]>The seventh temple was first mentioned by the conquistadors in 1519,[8] and the temple was last altered by the Aztecs in 1520.[7] The conquistadors then sacked and destroyed the building one year later in 1521.[4]>The process of expanding an Aztec temple was typically completed by new structures being built over earlier ones, using the bulk of the former as a base for the latter. The Aztecs began construction of Templo Mayor sometime after 1325, and the temple was rebuilt six times. All seven stages of the Templo Mayor, except the first, have been excavated and assigned to the reigns of the emperors who were responsible for them.[12]>First Temple>The first temple is only known through historical records because the high water table of the old lakebed prevents excavation.[12] According to these records, the first pyramid was built with earth and perishable wood, which may not have survived to the present time.[5][9][13]
>>18234822I doubt the average mexican gives a shit about any of that. You let identity politics rot your brain. I pity you.
>>18234836This entire conversation seems to be based around an amalgamation of people who only exist in your headWho the fuck told you that Aztec aqueducts were literally Roman aqueducts built with concrete? Even if that person does exist, what makes you so sure that they're the walking contradiction who at the same time believes they were made out of ceramic, as you implied in your first post?What fucking mexican are you talking to who apparently directs all their nationalistic fervor towards an obscure aqueduct of all things? Why are you even blaming this on "thirdies" when it's literally a claim Cortez made and that consequentially all of academia, including the western one, accepts and always has accepted, even in whatever "untainted by ideologues" time you probably believe existed?Anyway, building a fucking ground level clay pipe to siphon water out of a nearby hill is not fucking rocket science retard
>>18231401Not enough CIA meddling for my taste
>>18231435>>18232518You'll never be white, Hector
>>18234953>brown iberberian projecting his insecurity about wanting to be white once again
>>18234928>find buried offerings made by the people that ran the temples in each stratified layer>find artifacts that predate the Aztecs by 2000 years >ah yes, this must be 600 years old???
>>18234971Artifacts do not exist in a vacuum sealed off to all later cultures in which they get buried in place waiting for an enlightened modern person to find them you retard, they can remain in circulation, or get found earlier, with the Aztecs in particular being a culture we know were fascinated by their predecessors, regularly taking artefacts from sites like Teotihuacan (which, as your own quote said earlier, the mezcala culture coexisted with) and venerating them in ways that led them to rebury them as part of offeringsEven the shitty fucking Wikipedia quote you originally posted here >>18234737 says in its first paragraph that the presence of those artifacts in the Templo Mayor are a result of the Aztecs reusing them for their offerings, they weren't found in pristine ground straight from 700 BC lmao
>>18234563>Nwo, shubhumwan, hoes were creatw-AAAAAACCCCCKKKK!!! AAAAAAAACCCCKKKK!!!! (heart attack)
>>18234670>About a quarter of the threads on the catalog are anti-white spam threads.which are all created by whites either baiting retards or falseflagging to generate discussion about how they hate shitskins and niggers>board has an overwhelming amount of white supremacists, as proven by thread replies>the threads themselves on the catalog are all mysteriously pro-brownyou can't make this shit up
>SPIC SPIC SPIC SPIC SPIC YOU'RE ALL SECRETLY MEXICANS TRYING TO DESTROY WHITE CULTURE!!!/pol/ children can't even comprehend of people being interested in the history of different countries and cultures because they can only relate to history via childish fantasizing and self inserting, the extent of their interest in history is "MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDDADDY COULD BEAT UP YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDDADDY!"They imagine history like a YA fiction novel in their heads because they all have the brains of reactionary women.
>>18235101you're an anti-white evil agent who literally just genocided the white race with this post o algo
>>18234643not a single soul in mexico does that. everyone knows pyramids have been restored
>>18235176Apparently reddit thinks this is a credible site for mesoamerican historyhttps://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/aztefacts/lime-plaster>Michael E. Smith, renowned American archaeologist with decades of experience of excavating and researching Aztec settlements, calls [their cement] technology involved in Aztec architecture and construction ‘impressive’ (2003: 254). He notes that ‘irrigation canals were able to cross rivers and ravines on tall aqueducts, and this technology was used on the canal that brought drinking water across the lake to Tenochtitlan from springs at Chapultepec on the lake shore’ (pic 2).
>>18235240He's correct, Mesoamericans were fantastic architects. Retarded poltards here always claim that a majority of ancient mesoamerican structures are just modern recreations when its really just a few touched up tourist sites and theres literal thousands of other untouched structures you can look up at any time. I'm sick of the dishonesty.Btw restorations like the ones done in Mexico are done all over the planet, I've literally seen it being done to ancient sites in Europe in person.
>>18231401>>18231435it is heavily politicized in Latam because it is a very clear and direct case of colonized vs colonizer, indigenista vs Conquistador.
>>18235300There's not a single one without modern cement on them
>>18235335Damn bro, you telling me you personally went to each and every single one of the literally thousands of archaeological sites across Mexico and Central America, including all the obscure ones that are not tourist destinations and have basically not been touched since their discovery, just to safely confirm that? Respect
>>18235335not at all thougheverbeit, plenty just had the overgrowing vegetation removed and/or the pieces lying around put back into place
>>18235351>The "Albarrada de los Indios" (Dike of the Indians) was a crucial wood-and-masonry dike built by the Aztecs around their island capital of Tenochtitlán Tenochtitlan on Lake Texcoco Britannica, (modern Mexico City) to manage Lake Texcoco's fluctuating water levels, separating salty water from fresh, and preventing floods, but it was destroyed during the Spanish siege, leading to severe flooding So lets get this straight, the aztecs arrived in 1325 AD and in 1375 AD the island complex was a "fishing town". Everybody else that lived around the lake, and was most of the population, weren't aztec. There was a different culture to the east that built the water temple virtually none of which exists today and is a shitty tourist attraction. Then 65 years after becoming a fishing village they've added most of the layers to their central monuments which have 2500+ year old relics in them and they built the main water feature of the entire city, a stone and wood dyke, pic related. >This 16km-long structure, about 8m high and 3.5m wide, managed salinity to support agriculture (chinampas) in the south and provide fresh water for the citySomething isn't adding up
>>18235335This is just an outright lie, period.>>18235400>Everybody else that lived around the lake, and was most of the population, weren't AztecNo there was a shitload of Aztecs living around the lake, they didn't decide to build on the island as soon as they arrived in the Mexico basin, they had been settling down around that area for around a century by then.Tenochtitlan was their holy city, they believed it was the duty of all Mexica people to help build it. It's not the only place where Aztecs lived, and constructing it was a combined effort from A LOT of city states, same with the Dike. The big holy pyramids were some of the first structures built, almost the whole central island was a temple complex. It was frequented by pilgrims who would make regular offerings and lords living outside of Tenochtitlan would offer resources and help in constructing the city as a show of wealth, piety, and goodwill. Also absolutely everyone refers to the Dike by it's original name, the Dike of Nezahualcoyotl. Where are you reading this stuff?
>>18235460So what you're saying is the entire temple complex was under new management and they focused all of the development on their new city and horded artifacts while still mostly relying on a psuedo hydroponics agricultural system and people cope with this by saying actually the island city had 300,000 people living in two square miles of floating human shit gardens
>>18235473>So what you're saying is the entire temple complex was under new management and they focused all of the development on their new city and horded artifacts while still mostly relying on a psuedo hydroponics agricultural systemYes?>and people cope with this by saying actually the island city had 300,000 people living in two square miles of floating human shit gardensNo? London around the year 1300 was barely one square mile and it had 80-100,000 people. Tenochtitlan was around 5 or 6, it was far more fertile, had higher yield crops, was a holy pilgrimage site, and was the social and political center of an INCREDIBLY densely populated region.Also why are you guys so obsessed with human shit as if Chinampa soil wasn't 99% mud, rocks, and decaying vegetation? Have you genuinely never heard of fertilizer before? People in the past were slinging shit around all the time, not just in Mesoamerica, everywhere.
>>18235400>Everybody else that lived around the lake, and was most of the population, weren't aztec.You're being disingenuous here, wording it as if every "non-aztec" culture in the area was some sort of isolated alien culture entirely apart from the Mexica. They were fellow Nahua peoples, who spoke the same language, worshipped the same gods and were part of the same web of politicsAnd again, I'll try to hammer this into your thick skull one more time. You know those "non-aztecs" you're talking about? They also left their own historical records. Their own lists of which towns existed and where. And guess what, none of them ever mention that there was ever a city-state on the island before the Mexica arrived. Do you have any rebuttal to this point or are you gonna post more Wikipedia quotes that agree with me?>Then 65 years after becoming a fishing village they've added most of the layers to their central monuments Study history. Try to at least. In those 65 years, Tenochtitlan became an important vassal of the most important city-state in the region, Azcapotzalco. They started going on campaigns, conquering their own vassals, and getting a large amount of wealth flowing into their city, which allowed them to grow, and yes, expand their temples>have 2500+ year old relicsUndated relics from a poorly understood culture (whose people, for your information, didn't even live in Central Mexico, but in the Pacific Coast i.e not even close to Tenochtitlan) estimated to have existed from 700 BC to the 500s AD. They were found alongside clearly Aztec artifacts from the 16th century, amidst layers that have 16th century postclassic central mexicsn architecture. Do you believe that the Aztecs opened up these ancient layers of the temple just to deposit random shit they made?>and they built the main water feature of the entire city, a stone and wood dyke, pic related. The dike was built in historical times by Nezahualcoyotl after the foundation of the Aztec Empire, yes
>>18235335>>18235400>>18235473seething about precolumbian civilizations on a mongolian basket weaving forum won't make all those mexicans go back, Cleetus
whoever this retard seething about aztecs is, he for sure is on the lower end of white IQs.
>>18234563Texcotzingo has had almost no restoration work done to it and it's ruins have been consistently described since the 17th centuryHere's a 17th century description, and pic is a 19th century painting>These parks and gardens were adorned with rich and sumptuously ornamented alcazars (summerhouses) with their fountains, their irrigation channels, their canals, their lakes and their bathing-places and wonderful mazes, where he had had a great variety of flowers planted and trees of all kinds, foreign and brought from distant parts... and the water intended for the fountains, pools and channels for watering the flowers and trees in this park came from its spring: to bring it, it had been necessary to build strong, high, cemented walls of unbelievable size, going from one mountain to the other with an aqueduct on top which came out at the highest part of the park.>The water gathered first in a reservoir beautified with historical bas-reliefs, and from there it flowed via two main canals (to north and south), running through the gardens and filling basins, where sculptured stelae were reflected in the surface. Coming out of one of these basins, the water ‘leapt and dashed itself to pieces on the rocks, falling into a garden planted with all the scented flowers of the Hot Lands, and in this garden it seemed to rain, so very violently was the water shattered upon these rocks. Beyond this garden there were the bathing-places, cut in the living rock... The whole of the rest of this park was planted, as I have said, with all kinds of trees and scented flowers, and there were all kinds of birds apart from those that the king had brought from various parts in cages: all these birds sang harmoniously and to such degree that one could not hear oneself speak...’
>>18235546this is one of the most retarded OPs ive seen on this board lmao
>>18235617You know you're winning the argument when your side is just throwing insults and strawmen around and the other side is posting long, articulate explanations and cited sources.
>>18235492What's the population density of rural subsistence agricultural areas? Even if the city had 50 square miles of farmland that's like 50,000 people and the picture you get really starts to change and that small platform in the middle starts shrinking
>>18234670>anti-whiteRacism is a good thing according to you faggots tho?
>>18233188Your mom's a broke dike too
>>18234828Wow, chill out Pedro. Don't get your burrito in a knot.
>>18234792Sure.
>>18235881Thats not how arguments work
>>18235552>Texcotzingo has had almost no restoration workthere's not a single original piece except maybe the carved in stone bathtub
>>18235860You underestimate just how good mexicans were at producing food. Pre Columbian Mexico had over 20-25 million people, with an overwhelming majority living in just the southern half, and the Mexico Basin was the most densely populated part of it, and for comparison all of France at 1500 had 15-16 million. Chinampa farms were absurdly fertile, their local crops like corn chilis and beans were extremely nutritious, and they had specialized ways of growing large amounts of crops in small spaces like the three sisters method so even the small gardens of random city households were able to produce a notable amount of food. There's a reason the most planted crop on the planet now is corn.
>>18235962source?
Ok so would the aztecs obliterate the incas in war realistically or what>b-but muh mountains Is what i can get from the clankers and some redditors
>>18235989idk, the Inca were super numerous and had much better metalworking
>>18235991Yeah but the spanish decimated them despite being numerous
>>18231435thistheir whole mentality is of the football fans>my team is da best and your da worst
>>18235989Eh, I'd say in a vacuum they were more or less evenly matched, it really would just depend on shit like terrain and what the goals of either side even are
>>18235999I don't know how this fucking spanish superman myth is still a thing in the year of our lord 2025. The Spanish had SHITLOADS of native allies in both Mexico and Peru. In Mexico they had 1-200,000, it was one of the largest military coalitions in history at that time.
>>18233181>Primary sources don't matter because muh feelings, I know better than people who literally saw these things firsthandthis is double funny when you look at Amazonia and that failed desoto expedition>survivor journal described dense population on river coast>later anglo historians laughed at it because he mention women warriors>now LIDAR uncover plenty of remnants of dense population essentially this sort of rabid defenders of white anglo supremacy just stick to their xix century fanfics and die trying to defend it
>>18235967>You underestimate just how good mexicans were at producing food.they ate the algae blooms off the lake that were probably from their own shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxq8yQAtJlE
>>18235999Not the way you think it did. Cajamarca was a sudden massacre of unarmed attendants and guards expecting a diplomatic meeting, and the Spaniards did have thousands of native allies with them for the remainder of the war between the Spanish and Inca Empires, which contrary to what most believe, did not immediately end at Cajamarca but continued on all the way until the 1570s. That's 4 decades to fully conquer them, quite a lot longer than the 2 years the Aztecs lasted for.
>>18234643>I'm just summarizing what the average 80 IQ mexican pop history scholar thinks or is taught in their public schools.how do you know that? are you the average 80 IQ mexican pop history scholar?well, that explain a lot
>>18236027To be fair with amazonia, they described huge beautiful cities that were missing when later explorers showed up so it seemed pretty reasonable to assume they were just lying. We know now that the amazonians just got completely fucking obliterated by smallpox and their cities were consumed by nature, but its reasonable not have expected something so extreme.>>18236029Algae was also eaten in europe and asia. Once again you just prove that you're historically illiterate and you dont know shit about how pre modern people lived
>>18236029Can't help but notice you have very odd fixations on feces, dikes and concrete
>>18236040Pretty sure I would remember if europeans ate pondscum
>>18236034dude's just been projecting for this while thread lol>Complaining about "pop history" while spewing a the particularly retarded pop-his misconception of "all mesoamerican temples were in ruins when the spaniards arrived" (notice he didn't even bother defending that claim)>acting as if basic shit like other polities inhabiting lake texcoco and mesoamerican temple enlargements are massive revelations
>>18236055>Notably, evidence of consumption of these resources extends through the Neolithic transition to farming and into the Early Middle Ages, suggesting that these resources, now rarely eaten in Europe, only became marginal much more recently.https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-41671-2Historically, you WILL find examples of people eating pretty much anything even remotely edible.
>>18236085Aztec ate so much pondscum they sold dried cookies of it. Also you posted a funny here >>18235552>high, cemented walls of unbelievable size, going from one mountain to the other with an aqueduct on top which came out at the highest part of the parkWhen you go to Texcotzingo (99% of which is fake) they tell you they brought water from a mountain like 10 miles away on a massive aqueduct uphill
>>18235967
>>18236091>99% of which is fake)You have yet to substantiate this claim. Or the earlier claim that "not a single" Mesoamerican structure is unrestored. As a matter of fact, this whole thread you've been doing nothing but throwing wild claims in the air without elaboration and the only quotes you have posted in this thread so far were from fucking Wikipedia, and they all ended up acting against you in the end in a conversation that only proved you're utterly clueless about the subject at hand.
>>18236123okay there's two distinct styles at Texcotzingo, obviously indicating one is fake, there's two bath tubs at the site, they're in the two different styles. Which one do you think is the real one?
>>18236064I suspect that he is either some mixed race ''euro'', ''white'' american or some brown 'white supremacist' who decided that he gonna defend his favourite history team by shitting on American natives
>>18236091>Aztec ate so much pondscum they sold dried cookies of it.Asian countries still do this today. I was in Tokyo last year and they had dried algae cookies everywhere.>99% of which is fakeYou're never able to provide evidence for anything, all you do is just shout ITS FAKE ITS FAKE ITS FAKE like a toddler throwing a tantrum. THOUSANDS of archeologists and MILLIONS of tourists have meticulously inspected every inch of these sites, if they were fake you would be able to provide evidence. But you can't, you've never been able to provide ANY real evidence whatsoever beyond "it doesnt look right" or "i dont understand because i cant keep the basic facts about it straight". You are a degenerate little liar and its pathetic. If I found myself having to lie to support my cause I'd stop and ask myself if it was actually worth supporting at all, but you're not capable of that kind of introspection.>>18236126Yeah bro artistic and architectural styles never mix, its totally not something you can see all over the planet for all of history.
>>18236139>obviously there's a fake bath out of the two baths at the famous Texcotzingo site>refuses to even acknowledge the possibility that one is fake as fucklol okay
>>18236180>obviouslyWhat is obvious about it?>refuses to even acknowledge the possibility that one is fake as fuckYeah maybe fucking aliens built it, you'd have the same amount of evidence in favor of that theory as this one.
>>18236194so there's two differenty baths right? in one of the baths that looks different than the other one it has carved stone water channels going into it from no source
>>18236030Yeah but all i read was how it was basically due to being hidden in the mountains
>>18236126What exactly do you mean by "style"? Do you have any picture? Care to explain how exactly they are different?
>>18236226Basically there's 2 circular basins created out of modern concrete and rocks which have random varbed stone "spouts" positioned above them. Admittedly all the stonework at these sites is not original so oviously the two baths using concrete and rocks are not original. Meaning that also the stone "spout" placed near them is also probably fake. This is compounded by the fact that the actual attraction of the site is a bathtub carved directly into a rock with no "spout". So most of what you see is literally just some random guy guessing
>>18236242here's one of the "fake" tubs. Notice a small carved basin in the base of the tub, almost as if that was the original basin
>>18236242>>18236261Exactly what i expected: You're conflating style with construction method. All i have to say to you is: Mesoamericans built things out of smaller rocks and bricks. They also carved things directly into stone when they could. These are not mutually exclusive things, and your claim that they are "modern" concrete sounds like a product of your own preconceptions, much like your strange refusal to believe in the possibility of them having an aqueduct, and so i will not trust it or bother to engage with it.
>>18236269Why would they carve the channel into rocks, a basin into rocks, seemingly a pathway to the tub carved into rocks but also create 3 shitty tubs out of unmortared stone? Blocking the path of the water?
>>18236318and where did they find those carved channel rocks? when I AI it it brings up the bore holes which were done by modern miners. Everything around it seems like a hokey carnival attraction. >first result is a blogOh this is going to be good>The “Bath of the Queen” retains visible part of the original aqueduct that fed it, along with three sculptures of frogs facing the pool from different directions.huh I guess they removed the frogs >the carved stone bath is so advanced it predates the aztecs!alright I'm bored
>>18231432*peruvians
>>18236355
>>18236318...because the point of the channel was to fill the tubs thus making "blocking the water" a bit of a non-issue?>>18236355The fuck do you mean "find" carved channel rocks? The Aztecs? They carved the fucking rock themselves, you don't usually find them pre-carved>using random ass schizo blogs as a sourceSo much for a fella on a crusage against "mexican pop history", eh?
>>18236383That entire hill was 20 foot of dirt, you can see like one stair chunk in the one picture available from the site before excavation from the staircase carved into the rock. Did they "find" those rocks for the "aqueduct" scattered in the fill? Did anybody even write anything down?
>>18236134It's a seething spic, they're simultaneously narcissistic and self-hating retards who think that this stuff is intrinsically tied to their retarded identity crisis & just does not exist outside of a Latrine American culture war context and therefore the only people on earth who would ever take an interest on it instead of glossing it over as a mere brief stepping stone in the creation of the (indeed) pretty mediocre latinxo race must be an evil lefitst Mexican academic trying to embarass them in front of their gringo internet friends with cringe wewuzzing
>>18236400Sometimes things can be concealed by other things, but they still exist! In this case, the ruins are concealed by the dirt. Another example, when your caretaker holds her hands in front of her face for peekaboo, she's actually still there! You just cant see her because she's behind her hands! Isn't that amazing? I can't believe I actually have to explain this to you, you should have learned this around age two, but I suppose its never too late to learn
>>18236400>formal archaeology starting in the 1970s
>>18236400We're reaching levels of retarded I never before thought possible
>>18236445>William Bullock described Texcotzingo in the 1820s as a megalithic site featuring massive basalt stones, remnants of aqueducts, and strong stone buildings, suggesting it predated Aztec work
>>18235999Aside from cajamarca, where the spanish massacred an unarmed parade, the spanish only won battles when they had native allies. whenever the inca could separate the spanish from their native allies (or intercept groups of spanish alone), they won. Quizu yupanqui did this quite successfully until he was ordered to capture Lima and was killed by a combined spanish and native army
>>18236457>[Literally who 19th century retard said retarded thing]Damn is that really the angle you're going for now
>>18231417>>18231432they are made to count shit, what is the big deal, you can google quipu and see how it works
>>18234643/pol/tranny mental breakdown
>>18235335The concrete is apart of the conservation process dipshit. You don't understand what bad shape these ruins were in before archaeologists discovered them.
>>18237295>aztecs are so decentralized they practically don't exist as a culture>arrive just a couple hundred years before the spanish>worship a 2000 year old water god and live on a mud island>across the lake is an older civilization than you >conquer them >call yourself an empire >they had in their possession an extremely old shrine to tlaloc >it predates both your civilizations>Cortes shows up>well the town across the lake was conquered by the aztec so it's aztec>send your goons there in the 20's to build a bunch of fake aztec shit at the site>formal archaeology starts at the site in the 1970's>everything not bolted down is basically stolen and what's left is the fake shit they built>since the sites earliest history people have said it predates the aztecs >no no hombre you don't understand, I poured some concrete over some mexican rocks it's an aztec temple
>>18235335Do you think concrete magically makes these civilisations fake? What is with the /pol/cels "brain"? Interesting. I bet you also believe in an ancient Aryan Atlantis which has no evidence whatsoever.
>>18237761No I'm saying that the archeology is wrong
>you don't understand!>EVERYONE is in on it!>every single one of thousands of professional and amateur archeologists AND tourists that have inspected these sites is lying!>they were all constructed post 1800 in secret and not one of the tens of thousands of laborers such an undertaking would have required spilled the beans!>only me, a guy who has never been to any of these sites and cant get basic facts right about them knows, only me in the whole world!!!
>>18237864>experts>show up at completely ruined archeological site>it's a mexican tourist attraction made out of concrete and stones with beer bottles in the walls for windows>go to the one possibly legitimate thing in the site, obviously not aztec>a giant megalithic bathtub and aqueduct for water rituals>probably even rain fed "water came from the mountains">wow I bet the aztec king thought about stuff here, I feel intellectually and spiritually fulfilleddoes anybody serious study aztecs?
>>18234819so he could boast about conquering some proto-roman empire thing and not a shitty tribal kingdom?
>>18237874>>it's a mexican tourist attraction made out of concrete and stones with beer bottles in the walls for windowsWeird that nobody ever reported that in their notes>does anybody serious study aztecs?Clearly not you
>>18237882>not unot you either apparently
>>18237878>>18237883You dont seem to understand that a coverup of this scale would literally be the biggest conspiracy in human history
>>18232531Holy shit you're stupid
>>18237758>>aztecs are so decentralized they practically don't exist as a cultureWhat exactly do you mean by "centralized"? By the time Texcotzingo was built, Tenochtitlan, and to a lesser extent their partner city-states of Texcoco and Tlacopan, were the undisputed hegemons in the Valley of Mexico, more than capable of harnessing the resources and labor of everybody who lived in it, they did absolutely have the capacity and authority to build a fancy shrine wherever they wanted, if that's what you're talking about>>they had in their possession an extremely old shrine to tlaloc>>it predates both of your civilizationsThis is the last time I'm telling you this: the non-mexica people in that side of the lake? They left their own accounts of history. A flagrantly anti-mexica one at that. And at no point do they ever claim that Texcotzingo existed before their partnership with the Mexica began. They also weren't conquered by the Aztecs, they willingly founded a confederation with them.>>since the sites earliest history people have said it predates the aztecsBy "people" you mean literally a singular individual you just read about in a literal schizo blog who lived in a time wherein even Egyptian archaeology was rudimentary and the average american would rather believe that all the literal dirt piles in Illinois must have been built by ancient jews than admit the indians did it>>18237874>>go to the one possibly legitimate thing in the site, obviously not aztecYou say "obviously" as if your only source wasn't a random guy whose existence you just learned about lol
>>18237878Oh yeah? he did that? how exactly did he also get every single one of the surviving 3 thousand men that conquered the "shitty tribal kingdom" with him to also lie about it for the rest of their lifetimes, even the many that turned against him and became his political enemies, especially when many of those men would have been familiar with Cortez' accounts and descriptions (which had made it across the atlantic before the conquest had even ended) and who would surely be quite disappointed to find out it's all fake? How did he convince the many Spanish friars (many of whom also despised him btw) who recorded in detail the local native culture and history, in addition to their many literate native disciples, none of whom ever met Cortez, to also join in on the conspiracy? For that matter, how did he get the tens of thousands of other unrelated settlers and conquistadors who saw and became familiar with Aztec and other Mesoamerican culture when it was still very much alive in the immediate aftermath of the conquest to also go along with his lie? How did he get colonial administrators, who HAD to be truthful and objective for obvious reasons, to also take into account all these things you dismiss as far too advanced for a "shitty tribal kingdom" in all their reports, policies and edicts? The conquest of Mexico did not happen in a vacuum and the Aztecs did not immediately morph into modern mexicans the nanosecond Tenochtitlan fell you know. What you are implying is that there exists a 500 year long conspiracy involving tens of thousands of people across a dozen generations to lie about...the Aztecs being about as advanced as a bronze age society. Do you have any idea of how ridiculous you sound?
>>18237910>What exactly do you mean by "centralized"?Every temple was essentially its own polity, there was no "ethnic" control of these regions de jure. "Aztecs" were intermixed with whoever else lived in the region. >This is the last time I'm telling you this: the non-mexica people in that side of the lake? They left their own accounts of history. A flagrantly anti-mexica one at that. And at no point do they ever claim that Texcotzingo existed before their partnership with the Mexica began.Why would they admit the nicest thing in their village they found?
>>18237943>Every temple was essentially its own polity, there was no "ethnic" control of these regions de jure.Each city-state ruled by a tlatoani whose authority was recognized by others was its own polity. And there were wider ethnic identities that superseded the state, actually. The eastern shore of Lake Texcoco, for instance, was almost entirely inhabited by the Acolhua ethnic group and was universally recognized as their domain, of which Texcoco was the chief city-state of, with a certain degree of suzerainty over all their fellow acolhua. Likewise, the Mexica had Mexico, the two islands wherein they founded their two city-states of Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco, and which in the aftermath of their ascension, was given suzerainty over other island towns and some cities along the southern shore, despite those not being of Mexica ethnicitySo in short, you're wrong, the Aztec Empire had both very concrete, crystalized ethnic groups and states with all the benefits that came from it, they weren't even close to "not existing as a culture", which is a retarded conclusion to make and would still have been even if what you said were true>Why would they admit the nicest thing in their village they found?Texcotzingo wasn't a population center. And i'll remind you of the conversation we had earlier about the Templo Mayor and the Mezcala Culture: when the aztecs and related cultures found an ancient thing, they didn't fucking claim claimed hey built it out of some bizarre modern nationalistic mindset you're projecting onto them, they usually revered those places and the people who built them, it's what they did with Teotihuacan and probably all to Mezcala culture sites they got the artifacts from and it's doubtlessly what they would have done to Texcotzingo if they somehow weren't the ones who built itBut anyway, i recognize that you're basically just running on spite at this point and doesn't truly believe in what you're saying, but by all means continue
>>18237977Does anybody actually claim that Tenochtitlan was 100% ethnic aztec? I find it hard to believe any culture could go from hunter gathering to sedentary farming and temple building in a couple hundred years without massive population exchanges
>>18238024They had already been regularly interacting with the local states for like a century by the time they settled down once and for all at Tenochtitlan, they weren't exactly starting from zero in terms of knowledgeBut anyway, that's a difficult question to answer but logically yes, there were probably regular influxes of people from other polities arriving in Tenochtitlan and contributing to population growth by staying around nand having children, be they slaves or arranged marriages from other towns or specialized workforce like goldsmiths and the like. The Mexica Royal family itself were anything but pure since they had blood from noble families from from all the different cities around due to arranged marriage politics and all, in fact Tenochtitlan's first tlatoani wasn't even born there, he was an arranged marriage from the previous really major hegemonic city-state in the regionThat being said, i'd say most of those people's children would have identified themselves as Mexica either way, it's not as if they had blood tests after all, and a large party of the population growth could also just have been the work of Mesoamerican agriculture being productive, but in conclusion yeah i agree it's unlikely that the entire population of Tenochtitlan descended from the original nomadic tribe
>>18238057So around these areas you had about 20-50,000 people living in extremely sparse villages over like 40 square miles. Usually what would happen is they would exhaust the local ecosystem and collapse, relying a great deal on wild game. Basically the fate of the majority of native american civilizations, but when the central polity collapsed they just started paying tribute to some other shrine. The more elaborate the temples and artifacts, the greater the development/more people you had paying tribute. This probably went on for tens of thousands of years. That's why they revered earlier artifacts and saw themselves as successors. But really they could be a bunch of goons from out of town. This is how you would have temples from before the 14th century (maybe even BC) being revered in the 16th century by the aztecs who are from out of town
>>18238105Uh, no, Mesoamerican polities most often collapsed because of...politics. For instance, the Tepanec Empire that preceded the Aztecs was simply overthrown by the Aztecs and their allies after a bunch of complex dynastic shit went down. Environmental collapse had nothing to do with it, and the city of Azcapotzalco that founded and ruled that empire was simply reduced to a vassal status. Likewise, Teotihuacan has signs of burning on its buildings associated with the start of its decline, so either foreign invasion of internal revolt. They were not sitting ducks doing nothing for thousands of years in an infinite cycle of ecological disaster, and even the terminal classic collapses that most famously affected the Maya were not the norm, its effects were quite different from what you seem to be imagining, and even was probably about as political in nature as it was environmental, what you just brought up is a pop culture stereotype not realityThe impression i get from your posts is that you're getting all your Mesoamerican history from motherfucking Warhammer Fantasy or something, or more likely the extremely outdated 19th and 20th century sources they got their inspiration from. Mesoamerican cities were not stagnant theocracies wherein "shrines" and "temples" were the literal sole driving force of society, they were not "temple-cities", they were ruled by kings and nobility who had secular economic and political interests in their minds as often as they had religious onesI say this because y'know, it's quite ironic for somebody who barged into this thread complaining about "mexican pop history" to do nothing but regurgitate pop history slop lmao
>>18238181Right that's why the mayans "collapsed" yet all the mayans kept living in the ruins >what you just brought up is a pop culture stereotype not realitythe "sparse village of hunter/farmers over 40 square miles of 50,000 people" is about the peak of native american civilization. It's so real I think people just kind of "hung out" after their civilization collapsed
>>18238105>So around these areas you had about 20-50,000 people living in extremely sparse villages over like 40 square miles.No? They lived in enormous, well documented cities, we still have ruins from many of them, they were an extremely urbanized people, they had a population density similar to late medieval Italy>Usually what would happen is they would exhaust the local ecosystem and collapse, relying a great deal on wild gameYou're fucking stupid, mesoamericans were some of the greatest farmers on earth at that time and they had access to extremely nutritious and easy to grow crops and a fertile environment, plus domesticated food animals like turkeys and meat dogs. You're projecting basic entry level knowledge of the natives of the brutally inhospitable american southwest onto incredibly fertile mesoamerica and even then you're not really correct>>18238181>Right that's why the mayans "collapsed" yet all the mayans kept living in the ruinsNo retard, they left and went north to found cities like Mayapan Tulum and Chichen Itza, hell modern scholars mostly hate the term Mayan collapse and prefer terms like Mayan migration for that reason.>the "sparse village of hunter/farmers over 40 square miles of 50,000 people" is about the peak of native american civilization.You just made this up. We have shitloads of ruins of enormous dense cities, hell a city of 40-60,000 was just discovered in the jungle LAST YEAR.
>>18237903you're a retarded faggot, probably from a race that didn't invent most of the shit that native americans did actually invent on their own (writing, the wheel, metallurgy, civilization) yet your retarded subhuman ass still accuses them of not inventingkill yourself fag, I hope your race is replaced by brown mexicans
>>18238193Mesoamerican cities were anything but sparse >Right that's why the mayans "collapsed" yet all the mayans kept living in the ruinsWhat are you talking about? How does that relate to anything either of us said retard? Are you trying to imply that they hung around the ruins bevause they were so religious they just loved their temples that much? If so no, that didn't happen, the classic period cities that did collapse (not all of them did) usually got abandoned altogether, with the population shifting to the fully functional cities up north and south that were largely unaffected by what was, in reality, a very localized phenomenon that mainly affected the cities of one specific region (that being the Central Peten Lowlands), and like I said, was as political as environmental in nature. The Maya collapse was not an cataclysmic end of a civilization, it was the end of a specific political system (divine kingship) and most of the cities that sustained it. Maya civilization went on just fine afterwards>It's so real I think people just kind of "hung out" after their civilization collapsed"civilization" never collapsed. Individual polities did. When a city was abandoned its people usually just migrated to another preexisting city or went out to found new ones and things went on as normal, they didn't just "hang out". In the case of the Maya, what followed the terminal classic collapse was a period of flourishing trade and cultural and political exchanges with Central Mexico, the rise of many new states all over the northern Yucatan Peninsula and Guatemala, and seamless continuation of things like writing, construction, and politics, and all of this continued on until the Spanish came around. They didn't become passive ghouls aimlessly haunting ruins for hundreds of years like you seem to thinkLike i said, a worthless pop history view on things
>>18237799Well you're a tinfoil hat wearing narcissist at the peak of dunning Kruger. Wtf do you know compared to the entire archaeological community? Millions of highly trained professionals with decades of experience, NOTHING!! You're just a /pol/cel moron that knows nothing.
>>18232518Wrong. My Great Great Grandaddy could make better tacos than yours
>>18236318>>18236261>>18236242>>18236226>>18236126>>18236091Texcoca sources from the 16th and 17th century literally talk about how the structure was built and commissioned and how the baths and channels were cut from the natural stone of the hill itself at the Texcotzinco peak in contrast to the masonry construction used for the adjacent channel and pool systems that fed into the royal estate on the former peakThe description in >>18235552 which was already posted even mentions this>to bring it, it had been necessary to build strong, high, cemented walls of unbelievable size, going from one mountain to the otherand>Beyond this garden there were the bathing-places, cut in the living rock
https://files.catbox.moe/6adu4t.mp4
>>18238615>expecting the people here to know spanishMesoamerica haters really are all just self hating latinos huh? It really is all insecurity and projection
>>18238382>They lived in enormous, well documented cities>posts a dozen palaces and temples from different eras from a different culture
>>18239704You were the one who brought up the Maya in the firts place and the city he posted (Mayapan) flourished in the exact same period as the Aztec Empire, in addition to the fact that they were both part of Mesoamerican civilization and thus that quote applies to both of them
>>18239726And they weren't over 30,000 people
>>18239728Mayapan wasn't no, but that anon posted it to be an example of a fully functional Maya city in the northern Yucatan Peninsula in the postclassic period, not because of its large populationBut anyway, several Mesoamerican sites are indeed estimated to have had populations at or exceeding 30K, including Tenochtitlan, Teotihuacan and several Classic Maya cities, the latter two of which being often estimated to have had populations in the hundreds of thousands. Though judging by your attitude towards similar estimates for Tenochtitlan elsewhere in this thread i'm gonna guess you'll go out of your way to refuse to believe it so whatever
>>18239741>fully functional Maya city in the northern Yucatan Peninsula in the postclassic periodEvery foundation (pile of rocks) they found they built multiple retaining walls for to the point that the minor structures are almost completely fabricated from imagination, or am I being too cynical
>>18239758>or am I being too cynicalNot cynical, retarded and dishonest, what you are saying is verifiably untrueYou keep saying retarded shit and getting btfo over and over and over again and as soon as you're proven wrong, instead of admitting fault or asking questions of people who OBVIOUSLY know far more than you on the subject, you just move the goalposts and incompetently attack something else just to get proven wrong again. This is pathetic, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and you've failed to provide ANY real evidence whatsoever for mesoamerican history being faked beyond "it looks kinda weird to me in certain pictures because I know nothing about their construction techniques" with the amount of ruins and relics that would have to be fabricated, faking mesoamerican history would be the LARGEST CONSPIRACY IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND, and you have failed to provide ANY evidence whatsoever
>>18239758>am i being too cynicalYeah lolMayapan's buildings have been well-attested since the 1800s, here's a 19th century drawing of the round temple. And foundations and pillars like those you can see all over that picture are precisely the kind of thing you don't usually need to reconstruct beyond clearing up vegetation, and are common all over the Yucatan, even in obscure sites of no touristic value. I know you've been probably been told this a dozen times by now and you quite simply don't want to stop believing it, but Mesoamerican buildings aren't all reconstructed, the ones that are haven't been all reconstructed to the egregious degree seem in a few sites, and they are usually not entirely made up "from imagination"Also, how does that relate to whether or not it was a functional polity in the 15th century? Or your earlier claim that it either must have been spread out over miles or entirely unrelated to the Aztecs? Can't help but notice you drop claims and arguments all the time. But anyway, the history of Mayapan survived all the way into modernity, there's no room to make shit up. And through that we also know it had city walls, so much for sparse villages spread out over miles eh
>>18239794Main pyramid in the same period, overgrown with vegetation but still clearly recognizable as man-made and made of stone
Holy shit guys the Colloseum is fake, Roman history never happened!!!
>>18239803>A ruined mound >The main pyramid>A temple still in use>Trees growing out of it That to me says "this used to be 15 temples simultaneously in use"
>>18240068lmao you're speaking nonsense now
>>18240076There is no way they claim all of those buildings are from the same era. They have different styles. Seems they don't know whether it took 200 or 400 or 100 years to build
>>18240068...Did you somehow miss the previous picture of a different building on the same site by the same guy? >>18240082Are you autistic perhaps? Do you think historical cultures were like videogame robots limited by computer code to only ever build one thing in one way? Or do you just struggle with the definition of the word "style"? The pyramid and the circular temple are both built using the same late postclassic techniques and have the same distinctive Mayapan style. They don't have different styles, they're just differsnt types of buildings. The architecture on the main Mayapan pyramid is clearly directly inspired by the El Castillo from Chichen Itza, as corroborated in the Spanish and Maya accounts of the city's history. And circular buildings like those were likewise far from an anomaly in Mesoamerica as a whole at the time. The Aztecs famously also had one at Tenochtitlan, and they were most often associated with the international cult of the Feathered Serpent God, though the one at Mayapan could also be an observatory modeled after the one at Chichen Itza instead. What I'm trying to get at is, these two buildings alone are have a fuckton of hallmark signs that squarely places them both (and the city) in the 13th to 15th centuries AD, as corroborated by the historical accounts. In short, you're stupid>Seems they don't know whether it took 200 or 400 or 100 years to buildNah, Mesoamerican architecture wasn't anything complicated and it took nowhere near that long to build a pyramid or the lesser buildings. One you're talking about it that way now after spending the whole thread labeling it as primitive
>>18240101 the people from chichen itza pulled up stakes/were kicked out by toltecs/Maya and then formed a Confederacy away from chichen itza and then absorbed them.I wouldn't call that typical
>>18240142Typical for the site, thus proving that the buildings were all made by the same people in the same period, which is what you were originally contesting, please try to at least keep what you're even arguing about consistentAnd the "the people from chichen itza" were themselves Maya, not sure why you're going forna distinction there, and no that's not really what happened between them and Mayapan
>>18240175Displacing entire populations of people who then probably take over another mound, build a bunch of palaces and shrines and then ally with another mound is exactly the kind of mound tomfoolery i was talking about
>still fucking goinglmao at this point this guy must either be a troll or just an extraordinarily stubborn retard who would rather constantly jump through vague arguments not even he really understands than admit defeat
>>18240186hes been at this shit for months, he really is this retarded
>>18240181what is all of this mound talk?
>>18240181...And what i'm trying to tell you is that nothing about Mayapan's extant architectural style implies it ever got taken over by somebody else, there was no "take over another mound, build a bunch of palaces and shrines" it's all consistently the same which means that it indeed used to be 15 temples simultaneously in use, please keep track of what we're even talking about>>18240196He saw that the 19th century man who drew this picture >>18239803 called it a mound due to the fact it was overgrown with vegetation at the time, so now he's calling all Mesoamerican pyramids (which he believes are synonymous with polities) "mounds' in a weird attempt to belittle them i guess
>>18240186>Huh toltecs invade chichen itza and the architecture changes >Templo mayor has 7 known layers, they say it's only 200 years of activity>Artifacts predating their arrival in the valley of Mexico by 300 years at least buried in its foundations I don't know
>>18240211Try 1500 years at least
>>18240211>>Huh toltecs invade chichen itza and the architecture changes ...And we are talking about Mayapan, not Chichen Itza, keep up>>Templo mayor has 7 known layers, they say it's only 200 years of activityNothing out of the ordinary for an extremely dynamic city that very quickly became the center of the largest and wealthiest Empire in Mesoamerican history despite its short lifespan as an independent polity, with the construction of all the layers being talked about in the historical records left behind by the Spaniards and the natives alike>>Artifacts predating their arrival in the valley of Mexico by 300 years at least buried in its foundations Artifacts that we know were buried there as offerings by the Aztecs themselves because guess what, there are also just as many (or rather, way fucking more) unmistakably Aztec artifacts found in those same foundations, like half of which literally have dates carved onto them, which, unless you believe the Aztecs were regularly digging through the rock of their holiest temple, must have been deposited there at the same time as the Mezcala artifacts you're so fixated on
>>18240234Oh and now he's samefagging, how wonderful
>>18240244>half of which literally have dates carved onto themLol wut
>>18240260An example: this is Montezuma II's coronation stone, one of the many Aztec artifacts found around what was once the ceremonial center of Tenochtitlan. Its got many date glyphs, most of which are associated with the five suns myth, while the one in the lower middle specifically stands for the Aztec year 11 Reed, which would be 1503, the year Montezuma II became emperor, while the glyph on the upper middle, 1 Crocodile, corresponds to the day the ceremony took place, the 15th of july
>>18240296they found that thing paving a road
>>18240339The fuck does that have to do with anythingYou're really keen on jumping to the most random shit instead of defending your points huh
>>18240353a new layer in a monument is a new era, you can date the offerings with the layer, you said they had dates on them, the offerings I guess? they found that paving a road, it has no significance as to how old templo mayor is
>>18240357The point i'm trying to make here is that every excavated layer of the Templo Mayor has distinctively Aztec artifacts in them, and we know that they are Aztec because they're in the same style as Artifacts like those that literally have dates on themTry to get it through your skull this time: the super duper ancient artifacts you're so fascinated by were not all found by themselves in the oldest of layers perfectly segregated from the Aztec ones in a way that would suggest that the older culture built the damn thing, they were found alongside Aztec offerings in a fashion that logically suggests they were put there by the Aztecs. That, together with the historical accounts that describe in detail exactly which Aztec Emperors ordered the layers of the Templo Mayor to be built and when are why not a single archaeologist on Earth even considers the possibility of your moronic hypothesis being true. Do you understand now?
>>18240357>>18240373 Oh and by the way, the Mezcala culture artifacts you are so utterly in love with are not the only non-aztec artifacts found in the Templo Mayor, there also many artifacts from other cultures, ones that lived contemporaneously with the Aztecs even. Does that mean that Tenochtitlan was originally some multicultural paradise jointly built by every culture in the region? No, it's simply result of the fact the Aztec Empire was a wealthy tributary state whose citizens had the capacity of acquiring goods from all over Mesoamerica through tribute and trade, which is most likely also how they got the 700 BC artifacts you love so much, which, it's worth reminding you, were made by a culture that didn't even inhabit the Valley of Mexico when they were around
>>18240380Has anybody considered maybe that idol to the maybe the most revered god in mesoamerica doesn't necessarily make it an "aztec" offering?
>>18240418No, probably because an idol to the most revered god in Mesoamerica made in a distinctively postclassic Aztec style buried together with a bunch of other definitely Aztec artifacts found in a temple we know from the historical accounts was built by the aztecs in aztec times (you have yet to come up with a valid argument against this btw, be aware you are not talking about an entirely archaeological culture that can only be studied through archaeological findings) does indeed make it an "aztec" offering
>>18237655If you google quipu you'll see that most scholars agree they were capable of conveying non numerical information that they dont currently know how to read
>>18232531Or Western civilization is just better and the shitters who lived here before deserved to die because they couldn't protect themselves or their people from the encroaching tide of better people. Many such cases.
>>18241295>MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDDADDY COULD BEAT UP YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDDADDY!
>>18240450Weren't Aztecs and Toltecs Mayan "We Wuzzers"? Texcoco being another Aztec enclave kind of seals the narrative that it's entirely possible Mexicans were squatters on captured monuments and adopted foreign gods. Even the main temple was a dual temple to the foreign water god and their racial patron god.
>>18241410The Aztecs claimed they came from far away to the north(this is probably true) but they also accredit their culture to the Toltecs. To them the Toltecs were like Rome, they were the ultimate artists, thinkers, warriors, etc, the peak of culture, and they sought to emulate them(or more accurately, this idea of them) in all ways. This idea of the Toltecs as a cultural superpower was very persistent because of them and for years archeologists were accrediting EVERYTHING nice that wasn't Aztec to the Toltecs, but modern archeology has shown that they really weren't that impressive and were massively overhyped by the Aztecs. >it's entirely possible Mexicans were squatters on captured monuments and adopted foreign godsI guess??? I personally wouldn't describe them as such but I could see how you could sort of call them that, they were definitely outsiders who came in huge numbers and adopted a lot of the local culture. I'll put it this way, if you would also describe say, the Normans in Britain or the Romans in Greece that way, then yes. However it is not remotely in doubt that the Aztecs did in fact create A LOT of monuments and temples themselves and were highly influential on local culture.They were not Mayan though and not really connected to the Mayans in any significant ways beyond the cultural osmosis that comes from trade and proximity
>>18241410>Weren't Aztecs and Toltecs Mayan "We Wuzzers"?No. The Aztec royal family did do things like claim descent from the Toltecs, but that's because they did indeed have some, like i said a while ago Tenochtitlan's royal dynasty started when they invited a Toltec descendant from a different city to marry a mexica noblewoman and become king. That's an entirely different thing from going out of their way to claim that they built something they didn't, in historical times, while also giving details about it and everything>Texcoco being another Aztec enclaveIt wasn't. Texcoco was an Acolhua city, not Mexica, and they had been there since well before the Mexica arrived>kind of seals the narrative that it's entirely possible Mexicans were squatters on captured monuments and adopted foreign godsEven if what you said were true, i cannot even fathom how that's the conclusion you'd take from it, we haven't even talked about Texcotzingo in like 2 days if that's what you're trying to bring up again>Even the main temple was a dual temple to the foreign water god and their racial patron god.That does not support your point. The Templo Mayor was always dedicated to BOTH Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc, that's an argument in favor of it being Mexica-made. And Tlaloc wasn't a "foreign god", as you said it yourself he was a nearly universal Mesoamerican deity and all the Nahuas already worshipped him by that pointWe've now been having this back and forth for like four days and you STILL hasn't come up with a single argument that doesn't rely on your willful ignorance lmao
>>18241434Why the reverence for Tlaloc? The older Nahua tribe apparently also mostly focused on Tlaloc. It doesn't make sense to me as a culture that your first sacrifices were children to a foreign god.
>>18231401Mediterrorists are the indians of his.
>>18241452These people are absolutely just olive skinned americans and self hating latin americans, just look at >>18238615, this guy genuinely thought everyone here would speak Spanish like he does
>>18241423That temple used to look like this.
>>18241447>Why the reverence for Tlaloc?Because he was the god of rain and water and rain tends to be quite important for agricultural societies, in addition to the obvious extremely important role water has for life in general>It doesn't make sense to me as a culture that your first sacrifices were children to a foreign god.Polytheist pagans didn't usually think of things that way. Perhaps the early Nahua had their own rain god (Tlaloc) as nomads that got immediately folded into the pre-existing fanged Mesoamerican Rain Deity after they adopted the local sedentary civilization. Maybe they were animists, and so didn't even have much of a fixation on gods to begin with, thus making adopting the religion of civilized people an even simpler proccess, as the culture of the related Huichol people who are pagans to this day would imply. Maybe they already worshipped some form of the Mesoamerican rain god, since I'm pretty sure artifacts bearing Mesoamerican Rain Deity iconography have been found pretty far up NorthEither way, the Mexica, like i said, had already been active in Mesoamerica for a while by the time they settled down in Tenochtitlan, which is more than enough time to become acquainted with Tlaloc, assuming they didn't already worship some earlier version of him even before arriving in the Valley of Mexico
>>18241512so comfy, imagine sitting inside during a rainstorm, wrapped in your Tilmatli while smoking a cigar and sipping hot cocoa
