>>18241752
No. Too far away for proper logistics, too politically decentralized to coup de main, too cultural distant to draw local defectors to their side like they did in china.

>>18241752
No. European fortifications and terrain would have made it too difficult. It's not that Castles are untakable. It's that they are too numerous.

>>18241752
Its not random. 1) alcoholism is normal in steppe life, especially for rich/powerful steppe warriors. also, multiple successive khans died due to alcoholism. And its normal everywhere in that time period 2) kurultai cannot be avoided, they have to elect a new leadership and leadership would prioritize different aspects of empire, so a recall was necessary for the important generals

if they didn't have alcohol culture, bonding over feast would be less fun and might not have formed strong bonds with each other. if the leadership for ex lasted 5 years longer, its certainly possible deeper parts of Europe may have been under Mongol rule or Mongol influences.

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>>18241752
No.

>>18241752
Yes, if they actually wanted to.

>inb4 but muh knights and castles and mountains

They're a massive empire, they have more men, more money and more unity (until the Khan dies) than Europe did. A few lords go turn coat, a kingdom or two goes to their side, they stick around, it's over. They keep at it, they win. They get distracted they lose. It's a numbers game and all the numbers are on their side.

>>18241906
you can only sustain as many people as the local supplies allow in that era though
not to mention they were facing severe border friction already, taking away manpower to take europe might have cost them the middle east which would have been a pretty bad trade

there's also the additional factor that taking europe would have been a pretty long campaign for them, densely populated but low unity territory is always a pain to conquer since there's no single leader you can knock out

He didn't die randomly.
He was old and lived in fucking Mongolia 800 years ago.

The empire was never going to last and keep doing fine for a long time anyway because it's just a bunch of savages pillaging and destroying randomly.

>>18241801

> 20000 castles

By 13th century when the mongols reached europe Germany and Northern Italy had 20000 castles when combined.

Up to europe the mongols only had to siege down large fortified cities.

Castles would’ve made the mongols want to kill themselves.

>>18241752
Probably, but after a certain point it becomes a less a question of "Could they have done it?" and more "Was there a point to it?"

Like, yeah, in hindsight we all know that if they had burned all of West Europe to the ground and salted the ash then all of humanity would have benefited. But at the time they didn't know that.

>>18241906
>massive empire
Of deserts and empty steppe
They weren't gonna do shit to Europe

>>18242624
They definitely could not have. Yakub’s troops grew too proficient in war at this time.

Logistics were already in the toilet after razing everything from Poland to Hungary. They were at the literal end of a 5000 mile supply line, horses were starving, and Western Europe's dense forests/castles were a nightmare compared to the steppe. They were already stalling hard.

>>18241752
He's was rebuilding old Scythia, so no.

>>18241752
>empire
lol.
the fact that Rome or the Han Dynasty have to share the same class of state as a protection money scheme like the Mongol "empire" is laughable.

The cultural/legal/social impact of the Mongols on any of the lands they held outside of their windswept shitholes is zero unless you're a revisiontroon. Real empires have impact on their subjects.
Even compared to other barbarians, Vikings for example had a much stronger impact among slav(e)s, though holding almost no territory.

"Pay me 100$ a month not to kill you" isn't an "empire".

>>18244225
Mongols impacted Russia. You just do not know about their impact because you weren't ruled by them.

>Raid Northern Italy, Rhine area
Yes
>Hold and conquer like they did Russia
No

You'd probably have had some kind of Mongol rump state start up in the Pannonian Basin, they'd convert and be absorbed into the Kingdom of Hungary and all you'd have to show for it is a weird curious quirk of some minority population of Buddhists with slant eyes in the 20th century.

>>18241898
>Alcoholism
Frankly if people didn't drink so much in the past their life expectancy would likely have climbed 5 or more years.

>>18244225
>Pay me 100$ a month not to kill you
Mongols were rent-seekers?

>>18244275
Each government in history was.

>>18241752
If you look at the borders of their empire, it becomes clear that the mongols ran shit outta luck as soon as the land was no longer wide open flatlands. They collapse when they reach the jungles of Southeast Asia, the Himalayas, the swamps and forests of Europe and the geographical clusterfuck of the east Mediterranean. Pretty much all of their success comes down to
1: Most of their territory being uninhabited wasteland
2: Attacking at the exact moment both China and the Caliphate were in states of collapse and civil war.

>>18242527
For what do you want a castle if I control all the fertile land and water around it?

I can't take the castle? Ok, stay in there meanwhile I will be outside eating and drinking good waiting for you to go out and face me in open terrain or to starve.

>>18244245
>go to Britain, France, some weird part of north Africa
>Roman buildings, Roman words, Roman art, you're practically falling over it

>go to Egypt, Damascus, Spain
>Arab words, arab music, arab food, arab architecture

>Go to Xinjian, got to Szechuan, go to Korea, go to nam
>Chinese (central plains) everything, buildings, words, characters, religion, philosophy, (along with the rest of east Asia)

>go to anywhere on OPs map
>you'd never know a horsefag was ever there but for it being written down.

not an empire pal.

>>18244292
what number of troops donyou need to siege all those castles?
>just do it one at a time
how many centruries would it take?

>>18244295
You are a moron who doesnt understand pre modern warfare. The Horde HAS to keep moving because the horses need alot of quality feed to stay alive, sieges were immensely costly to the Mongols and other nomads which is why they treated those who didnt surrender with no mercy. Sieging every little castle will lead to the horde evaporating and ignoring them will lead to armored knights sallying out destroying your supply lines

>>18245965
>The Horde HAS to keep moving because the horses need alot of quality feed to stay alive

Are you telling me they can't feed their horses controlling all the fertile land around the castles?

>>18245968
You dont know anything about the topic and i dont care to teach you, but tens of thousands of horses and the tens of thousands of pack animals needed to fuel sieges of the scale needed to conquer Europe would destroy all suitable grasses for horse feed and deplete all food sources for most live stock for hundreds of miles of every major castle, the Mongols would have to choose to starve or let their horses die. Fertile land means nothing when the peasants are dead and it requires massive amounts of labor to till so now you have to import tens of thousands of slaves and their accompanying feed

>>18245983
I think the mongols had already a lot of land and Europe was so far away that they didn't care anymore. The castles, terrain and all of that also was a factor but not the main factor. They already had half of the world, why bother with this shitty place that is so far away.

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What is this fantasy scenario invented in this thread where European Christians would hide behind walls while pagan Mongoloids pillage their land? Europeans did challenge the Mongols head on in battle and left victorious.

>>18245993
The Mongol Golden Horde entered into an intra Mongol civil war against the Mongol Ilkhanate, during its second invasion of Europe.

During the first Mongol invasion when it defeated Europeans in all battles, there was no Mongol civil war.

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>>18246074

>>18244225
>Vikings for example had a much stronger impact among slav(e)s, though holding almost no territory.
>"Pay me 100$ a month not to kill you" isn't an "empire".
That was literally viking rule over slavs.
Wait it was even funnier. Vikings lived in their towns and didn't interact with local population at all. Once a year Konung assembled his army and went around villages and collected tribute. Basically "peaceful" viking raid. They they went back to town and eat all year food they took from locals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_of_Kiev

>>18241752
Fun fact: France, HRE and Hungary swear loyalty to the Mongol Empire, so "de iure" Mongolia shared borders with the Iberian and Italian Peninsulas.

Jupiter-Tengri Biz Menen.

>>18244295
fields are burned and wells are poisoned before the horseniggers even arrive. when they siege a castle every surrounding castle harasses their supply lines.
their logistical mobility (their only real advantage) is now reduced to near 0 and they are crushed with ease by heavy cavalry.

>>18241906
>They're a massive empire
Which wouldn't have counted in their favor. It just meant that, with the bulk of the army thousands of miles and at least a year of travel away on one end of the empire, the other end of their empire could have broken off (as indeed it did, repeatedly).

>they have more men
In Europe that advantage would have dried up quickly, because they would have had to either split those men up or concentrate them on one castle at a time, causing them to starve and die of disease while waiting for the castle's garrison to surrender a thousand times over.

>more money
That depends. They needed tribute and plunder, or their men would have turned against their commanders. In the scenario I described above, where soldiers are dying in droves waiting, waiting, waiting in the sleet and snow for one castle after another to surrender, and the plunder disappoints, 'more money' would have been a very abstract idea to the average soldier in the Mongolian army (who by that point wasn't even a Mongol, just an opportunist from one of the conquered territories).

>more unity (until the Khan dies)
You added one caveat already. The other is that unity wouldn't have been an advantage for Europe, but a disadvantage. See >>18241759. The Mongols couldn't have killed or captured one, or even a handful of kings and considered the place subdued. Behind every tree there's a new pretender, and on top of every rock there's a castle that'll bog your army down for months and launch raids against your rear guard if you bypass it.

>>18241906
if they actually tried to hold ground like after the first invasion of hungary they would have been crusaded

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>>18245993
those are Golden Horde churkas. Only the Khan and Generals were Mongols. Average soldier was a snivelling coward churka by 1260. White sissies never stood a chance against even a 50% Mongol army at Mohi and Legnica

>>18241752
The mongol armies in a vacuum have no problem whatsoever dealing with the european peninsula and whatever forces the locals can muster inbetween their infighting. However the logistical and political realities of the empire prevent it from extending throughout all of asia, same thing happened in egypt that happened in europe.

>>18242712
The mongols controlled the two of the most urbanized and wealthy regions in the entire world.

>>18244225
What about the Yuan dynasty?

>>18244225
Mongol empire transformed Europe. The Mongols brought extension to the silk road and connected European feudal kingdoms to Chinese empire. It brought about the end of the medieval ages and brought forth the age of colonialism and enlightenment. The transfer of knowledge from Asia completely transformed Europe as a continent. From printing press to gunpowder weapons to adoption of paper currency to paper making transformed European society forever. You cannot separate modern western society without the influence of Mongol empire.

>>18247206
Cope, they would've lost and been sold off to the mamluks for use as dancing boys/onaholes

>muh castles

Have fun when they bring cannon over from China. They weren’t very good against the sixty foot thick city walls in China but would absolutely render thin european castle fortifications into rubble very quickly.

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>>18247206
>Golden Horde churkas
No such thing, THey were Tartars-Moguls who are very Mongoloid.

>>18247651
Cope. The mongols couldn't even take a lone assassin stone castle in the middle of persia that they surrounded from all sides and had to wait 17 years foe the defenders to starve to death. Most of the other castles capitulated because their leader who surrendered told them to. You're deluded if you think they had a chance of conquering europe. The main difference between the first and second invasions of hungary was that their king built stome castles. Hungary was a small power and your delusional ass thinks they were going to conquer europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerdkuh

>Have fun when they bring cannon over from China
Lmao. It was the opposite the mongols took the counterweight trebuchets they found in persia and used them to take down chinese sand castles and destroy the song dynasty

Stone castles > earthworks. Europe was filled with castles. You're coping hard if you think Mongols had a chance of conquering europe.
The latter only became relevant once more when gunpowder weaponry evolved during the rennaisance.

>>18247775
>them to take down chinese sand castles and destroy the song dynasty

I remember testing your ass apart when you repeatedly lied on the other threa about this

China did build stone walls and forts with crushed stone mortar retard

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17955263/#q17959330


Secondly, the Chinese stone mountain forts and cities in Sichuan and Guizhou like Diaoyu, Lingxiaocheng and Hailongtun never fell to Mongol counterweight trebuchet, only ordinary lowland cities like Fancheng did.

Southern Song China built dozens of special mountain fortresses out of stome in Sichuan explicitly to counter the Mongols and so did the Tusi chiefs of Guizhou like in Hailongtun.

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17955263/#q17955268

Diaoyu fortress (the biggest Song mountain fort) killed Mongke Khan 1259 and only voluntarily capotulated in 1278 after DECADES of siege because they lost communication with the Southern Song emperor in Guangdong, in exchange for complete amnesty for the defenders despite causing massive casualties to the Mongols.

The smaller Sochuan mountain fortress city of Lingxiaocheng decided to fight on and lasted 9 more years to 1288 under siege from the entire Yuan dynasty

The Song Sichuan mountain fortreses were under siege for decades since the 1250s, longer than Girdkuh, and the counterweight trebuchet introduced in 1273 to besiege lowland cities like Fancheng failed to destroy the Sichuan mountain fortresses.


Girdkuh also didn't run out of food, they ran out of clothes.

>Hungary was a small power and your delusional ass thinks they were going to conquer europe

Hungary was conquered by the Ottomans and Crimean Khanate (direct successor to the Mongol Golden Horde.)

I litetally ripped every one of your lies to pieces.

>>18247901
Keep coping chinkspammer

>>18247775
>>18247901
You were also cheerypicking images to make the Forbidden city look small when it was giant, in 19th century photos


The Southern Song had actual mountain castle fortresses in Sichuan (not fortified cities) that withstood siege by the Yuan dynasty for DECADES, with the last one not falling until 1288, 9 years after the official end of Southern Song.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sichuan_anti-Mongol_fortresses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Diaoyucheng

The Han Chinese Yang family ruling the Tusi chiefdom of Bozhou had a massive castle with a stone foundation built on a cliff with only one side that they could be sieged from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hailongtun

The Mongol empire never besieged it because the Yang family, like the majority of other Tusis in the area, simply defected to the Mongol empire and Yuan and retained their fiefdoms. The Yang family ruled throughout the Tang dynasty, Song dynasty, Yuan dynasty and Ming dynasty until 1600 when Ming troops burned the castle down with modern gunpowder cannon after a rebellion.


https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17955263/#q17957653

>>18247775
>>18247901
>>18247906
The direct successor of the Mongol Jochid Golden Horde was the Crimean Khanate.

The Jochid Crimean Khanate and Ottomans jointly invaded and conquered Hungary and ravaged eastern Austria countryside in 1529 up to Vienna just like the Golden Horde army in 1240,1241 and 1242 when it reached Wiener Neustadt in Austria.

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17729058/#q17729298

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17507888/#q17507888

Ottomans invaded Hungary in 1521, defeated Hungary at the Battle of Mohács in 1526 and annexed Buda in 1541.

The Mongol Crimean Khanate continued ravaging eastern Austria until 1683 and ruled Hungary until 1699.

The ancestors of Ottomans themselves fled the Mongol conquest of Central Asia to Seljuq Anatolia, so the Mongols were even more powerful than them.

Hungarian castles didn't stop the Crimean Khanate and Ottomans.

Also, Chinese castles never actually fell to the Mongols.

The Southern Song Chinese Sichuan mountain fortresses like Diaoyu voluntarily capitulated in 1278 because they lost all communication with the last Southern Song emperor in Guangdong.

They no longer had a head of state and voluntarily gave up in exchange for total amnesty.

Diaoyu killed Mongke Khan in 1259 which resulted in splitting the Mongol empire.

Diaoyu and the other Chinese mountain fortresses in Sichuan withstood decades of siege by Mongols, they didn't even break under counterweight trebuchet bombardment (only lowland Chinese city walls were threatened by the counterweight trebuchet).

Two smaller Sichuan mountain forts refused to surrender, one of them, Lingxiao managed to last another 9 years until 1288 under total siege by Kublai Khan's entire Yuan dynasty.

That was without the larger forts like Diaoyu who voluntarily gave up in 1278-1279.

If Diaoyu didn't capitulate, the Sichuan fortress would have lasted decades more.

>>18247775
>>18247901
>>18247909
The Chinese feudal mountain castle Hailongtun ruled by the Yang family of Bozhou was not taken by Mongols either.

Hailongtun and Bozhou held out against the Mongols and Yuan dynasty for decades.

The feudal Yang chieftain who was loyal to the Song only capitulated to the Mongols after the Southern Song government ended in 1279, and Kublai Kham granted him complete amnesty and the Yang family continued to rule as vassals.

It was the Ming dynasty which destroyed Hailongtun in 1600 after a decade long siege

>>18247911

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/8317887/#q8318998

The Mongols never defeated the largest Chinese fortifications. The Chinese feudal nobles in stone castles just switched alleigance and the Mongols moved on leaving them in their fiefs.

The biggest Chinese castle at the time was Hailongtun in Bozhou. The Chinese hereditary feudal lords of the Yang family ruling Bozhou just submitted recognition of the Yuan as the new dynasty instsed of the Southern Song and continued ruling as hereditary feudal lords of their Bozhou fief in the Yuan and into the late Ming. The same with the Chinese Duan family ruling Kingdom of Dali in Yunnan. The Southern Song child emperor in Lin'an capitulated and the capital was not stormed. Yuan princesses were married off to the Southern Song emperor and King of Dali.

The biggest castle the Mongols took by siege in Asia was an Assassin castle in Girdkuh, Iran.


The giant Chinese mountain stone castle Hailungtun was only destroyed in 1600 in the Ming dynasty when the Yang family rebelled against the Ming. The Yuan never besieged the most powerful Chinese feudal stone castle of it's day. It was built in 1257 on a mountain.


These are a small part of the remains of the biggest Chinese mountain stone castle, Hailongtun which was destroyed during the Bozhou rebellion by the Ming dynasty in 1600 with cannon fire.

The Mongols never besieged the castle, the ruling Yang family just switched allegiance to the new dynasty from Southern Song to the Yuan.

>>18247775
>>18247902
You're the one coping incel

Ottomans and Mongol Golden Horde successor Crimean Khanate conquered Hungary.

The Mongols stomped the Ottomans out of Central Asia and later the Mongol Tamerlane defeated the Ottomans and European Crusaders at Smyrna.

Chinese mountain fortresses never fell to counterweight trebichets and lasted decades under siege, both before the counterweight trebuchet and after it was introduced.

Kublai Khan also gave Korean women as wives to the Southern Song soldiers in Xiangyang city after they voluntarily capitulated

https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/18042156/#q18042199

Kublai had to spare everyone in Diaoyu and grant them amnesty after they killed Mongol Khagan Mongke Khan and killed Mongol besieged for decades

Mongke Khan was the last Supreme Mongol Khagan to control the entire united enpire,, and ot fractured into four pieces at war against each other after he was killed by Song troops at Diaoyu fortress.

Genghos razed Bamiyan after his grandson was killed there

>>18247775
>couldn't even take a lone assassin stone castle

Assassins killed European Crusaders in addition to Sunni leaders, and Europeans never took their castles in the Levant.

Seljuq Turks never took Assassin castles but they defeated the Byzantines and conquered Anatolia.

The Assassins came from the Ismaili Fatimids, who sacked Genoa and comquered Sicily.

The Byzantine emperor also gave one of his daughters to Mongol leader Nogai Khan as he marched to Constantinople.

The same Byzantine dynasty married off another princess to Ilkhan leader Abaqa Khan.

>>18241906
>A few lords go turn coat, a kingdom or two goes to their side
t. gets his entire knowledge of feudalism from Game of Thrones

>chinkspammer triggered
This thread is finished

>>18247936
Except that's what happened in Russia. Feudal Rus fiefs submitted to the Mongols.

>>18247206
>Golden Horde churkas
What did he mean by this.
>>18241901

>>18244225
Pretty based post
Fuck you Genghis and the horse you ran in on.

>>18241901
Kipchak Turks (Tengrists) helped the Georgians against Seljuq Turks (Muslims) at the battle of Didgori.