Communism and fascism share characteristics as totalitarian and authoritarian systems that suppress individual rights in favor of the collective, but their core ideologies, goals, and economic principles are fundamentally opposed. Fascism developed in direct opposition to communism.The totalitarian and authoritarian systems shared between the two are quickly becoming the face, while the mutually opposed core ideologies, goals, and economic principles of the two are now ignored. It’s all authoritarian and that’s all that matters. When people say “fascist” they think of authoritarian violence now. Not commie or fascist principles.
>>18242155The communist position is child B btw.
>>18242213Um no.
>>18242213>>18242155if the children are telling the truth, the question makes no sense because child B is already the owner of the flute, I would be stealing it from her if i chose to give it to A or C
>>18242155>I should get the flute, I am the only one that can play it- wait, what are you doing anon, no stopp-AAAA>PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP GET PREGNANT GET PREGNANT GET PREGNANT
>>18242155Child A should get the flute. Just saying.
>>18242155>>18242239Child A doesn't just get the flute, she deserves it. Child A will get the flute, even by force if necessary. Because Child A is exceptional. The flute only becomes meaningful when Child A's lips touches its mouthpiece. It's not about being “anti-poor” or “anti-effort.”It’s about being pro-meaning.You GIVE meaning to something, that thing doesn't come with meaning on its own. The flute's music will bless the ears of all the children because Child A was allowed to play it.
>>18242213Not of the state requires it.
>>18242255Stabbing you is a meaningful action.
>>18242258It is yes, but you must give it meaning first.
>>18242155Let them fight. Whoever can claim the flute deserves it.
>>18242263anarchist yay!
>>18242239hey is that a doro
>>18242213That is literally the one position incompatible with communism. Capitalism is all about respecting private property (B)Modern western leftism is (C) as it is all about critical theory and muh oppression and sheeitCommunism with Chinese Characteristics (aka fascism) is position (A) as it is about redirecting resources to where it is most optimal (assuming you can make the argument that making music = desired endgoal)>>18242226this, the capitalist solution is that B sells it to A, A plays music, and the music enhances the enjoyment of life of all
>>18242342You're a retarded nigger. Communism is all about labor. The labor theory of value is the cornerstone of communism. Workers should own the means of production because they are the ones operating it and producing the shit, not the capitalist. Ownership should be based on use. Capitalism would be a Child D>You made the flute, but I'll take it and sell it for 50 dollars and give you 10, and I'll keep the rest.
>>18242366Literally nobody is preventing you from any modern western capitalist country from making your own thing using your own materials and selling it. If you have to use someone else's resources, knowledge, or reputation to do something then yeah it is normal that they would take a cut. Labor theory of value is literally disproven which is why the only politically relevant leftists today are either Chinese type Communists or retarded woke critical theory leftists. The only retarded niggers still desperately clinging on to labor theory of value are retarded irrelevant terminally online self proclaimed "only real communists" like you. The wokest onions chugging purple hair tranny is more politically relevant than you lmao
>>18242374>Literally nobody is preventing you from any modern western capitalist country from making your own thing using your own materials and selling it.This doesn't relate to any argument I've made. This shows me you're a retarded nigger and I stopped reading after this point.
>>18242382Lol typical retarded commie. Enjoy being poor
>>18242155Child B, who sells it to A and learns that such initiative will be rewarded and thus will continue to make useful things for the other children, Child A then composes a sad song about how Child B really ought to do something about Child C. Later, Child C steals the flute and breaks it.
>>18242213In the US, position A and C are Communist (...according to needs&abilities) while position B is a true-blue American Capitalist.
>>18242441see>>18242366
>>18242155>Child B is praised for creating the fluteHowever, they are reminded that they did not make it from their own genius, but were taught to do so. They did not provide the materials, either. They were not born with the flute, and when they die they will not take the flute with them. The flute on its own has no purpose unless it is used.>Child A will play the fluteThey will also show Child B and Child C how to play, as a condition of using it.>Child CWill learn to play the flute. They are reminded that the flute does not belong to any of them, that the purpose of the flute is to make music. They may use the flute to practice and eventually play music for the enjoyment of themselves and others.The whole premise of Lee Kwan Yew’s imaginary dilemma here is incorrect. Nobody ‘gets’ the flute. The flute exists. They may use it. It does not belong to anyone, since it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Child B did not get the materials from nowhere, nor the knowledge to make the flute. They relied on others to teach them. The same for Child A, they were not born knowing how to play. The existence of the flute is completely irrelevant to Child C. They may have a positive social interaction where they engage with Child A and B for the benefit of all three. Ownership is a completely retarded concept if you take it at face value. It focuses man on objects rather than society. The flute itself is irrelevant, what matters is the rights and responsibilities toward each individual in society. Ownership is only a useful concept in so much as it helps determine what duties one has.
>>18242155I hire child C to take the flute from B so I can sell it to A for a profit.
>>18242366>You're a retarded nigger. You can’t use that language under communism we’re all equal. No comrade is better or worse than any other. >Communism is all about labor. The labor theory of value is the cornerstone of communism. Workers should own the means of production because they are the ones operating it and producing the shit, not the capitalist. Under Communism the Government takes everything. The worker is a slave to the Government. No I will not be reading the kike Karl Marx’s definition of Communism as no one has EVER did it his way, mostly because it’s impossible to do so on any scale larger than a small, rural self-sustaining racially homogenous village.>Ownership should be based on use.The boss uses it because he pays people to operate it for him. He’s using it by extension of his workers, the people he pays to do the work he doesn’t want to do.
>>18242155>Communism and fascism share characteristics as totalitarian and authoritarian systemsLet me guess, marxism/communism is inherently totalitarian because muh natural hierarchies or something ?>that suppress individual rights in favor of the collectiveRights come from the collective and the state anon. This is a fundamental problem that many libertarians don't understand. Every right, including property rights, are derived from the state's willingness to grant them. The idea of having a "common interest" that benefits everyone is based upon upon this. Everyone can recognize that we all have desires and preferences, and that we can establish a global set of principles to organize society (given there's not much choice but to live in society).>mutually opposed core ideologies, goals, and economic principles of the two are now ignoredPeople complain more about the foodlines in the USSR than its totalitarian nature.>>18242342Who do you think determined the property rights ? From democracy ?>>18242374>nobody is preventing you from making your own thing Anon there's this thing called money and not everyone has it... There's also this thing called "necessities" that also require a part of that money to be spent on them, which means people can't really save-up, at least some of them...>Labor theory of valueThe whole point of it was that workers are forced to accept a wage inferior to the sum of the products they made because they don't really have a choice in determining how much of the capitalist's investment and "idea" is worth.>>18242744Except the Boss got his flute from mystical property rights(tm) who were never decided or agreed upon.So the boss ends up with arbitrary power over who uses it and for what. In the end, the common interest (from which property rights are also derived btw) is obstructed because everyone forgot where the flute came from and the boss claims to be "legitimate".
>>18242778>marxism/communism is inherently totalitarian because muh natural hierarchies or somethingYou can't implement communism without totalitarism.Here is dilemma. Peasants refuse to sell grain to State at price according to labor theory of value.Your move Marxists?Without totalitarian state that can bend peasants over communism instantly loses against market.
>>18242785>>18242785 >at price according to labor theory of value.The LTV isn't a price theory. The price is determined through exchange. You can have markets with "marxism", as long as they produce fundamental crisis. >Peasants refuse to sell grain to State Well then they refuse to sell grain to the State ? Am I missing something ? Did you think that marxism was "le mean authoritarian state asks everyone to do work for free!!!:(" ?
>>18242795>You can have markets with "marxism",You can't. Selling goods at price that is different from labor value is literally the exploitation. Core communism concept is ending the exploitation.Without totalitarism you can't stop peasants from exploiting working class with grain speculation.
>>18242802>Selling goods at price that is different from labor value is literally the exploitationYes, and how do you determine the labor value ?>Core communism concept is ending the exploitationWrong, core communism is the idea of a classless society. Historical materialism and the material dialectic are much more important than random economic theories like exploitation.>Without totalitarism you can't stop peasants from exploiting working class with grain speculationWell this is simply wrong. You can have trade with both parties without having to form a relationship based on coercion. There's this thing called democracy that allows people to determine some form of mutual interest...
>>18242155Beat all three with the flute and run away with It for my self.
>>18242155Child B should have the flute of course. If Child A wants a flute she should use her skills to bargain with Child B, offer to teach them in exchange for getting a flute. Then both parties can have a flute AND know how to play it, win-win.Child C is just shit out of luck. He can only pay the other two with his body.
>>18242826>Yes, and how do you determine the labor value ?Using scientific calculations of labor value of course.>You can have trade with both parties without having to form a relationship based on coercion. Trade with unequal exchange is exploitation. That is core concept of Marxism and communism, voluntary trade is still an exploitation when unequal amount of labor is exchanged. This you need totalitarian state to our end to this voluntary exploitation.Otherwise how do stop peasants from exploiting working class by grain Ori e gouging? You can't.This is why Dictatorship of The Proletariat. Totalitarian State.
>>18242826>Yes, and how do you determine the labor value ?Using scientific calculations of labor value of course.>You can have trade with both parties without having to form a relationship based on coercion. Trade with unequal exchange is exploitation. That is core concept of Marxism and communism, voluntary trade is still an exploitation when unequal amount of labor is exchanged. This is why you need totalitarian state to put an end to this voluntary exploitation.Otherwise how do you stop peasant scum from exploiting working class by grain price gouging? You can't.This is why Dictatorship of The Proletariat. Totalitarian State.
>>18243228If it is voluntary it is not exploitative
>>18243228>Using scientific calculations of labor value of course.Or, in other words, through the cost of production and the wages that people are willing to work at.>Trade with unequal exchange is exploitationMarkets solve this. If one group of peasants refuse to sell grain, then some other group can be hired if they're willing to produce it for the price.If no one wants to produce for such price, you renegotiate the wages. If people complain about having to pay more expensive food because of higher peasants' wages, then you try to reduce production cost etc.This is called democracy and collective interest. In a capitalist setting however, if the peasants gouge prices, there's nothing you can really do.
>>18242342Also C isn't anything about wanting to learn to play it.
>>18242155You really need to actually read about authority and communism, and not just whatever strawman arguments that anti-communists have come up with about communism. In a post-capitalist, pre-communist society, the working class finds itself in the position of needing to deal with the bourgeoisie who are actively trying to push society back into capitalism, often through violent and subversive means. It is foolish to think that some form of political power won't be used to prevent this from happening.I'd argue that people don't really know what they mean when they accuse people of being fascist. They use the word like "you're doing things I don't like", but really fascism means "violent suppression of liberal freedoms directed at the working class under a system of capitalism in decay".>>18242213Absolutely not. Child A and B tell the story of the actors in commodity exchange, and child C appeals to those who love to virtue signal. The communist position is "there are three people who need flutes, how do we improve such that we can produce more than one?" (nevermind that child C clearly lacks more than flutes, but the position extends to cover him as well)
>>18243223>Using scientific calculations of labor value of course.The labor value of a good is the production cost, in essence the wages + the materials required. If people voluntary trade with one another to exchange goods, then there is no exploitation.Exploitation occurs when a dominant class takes labor-power from a dominated class without any kinds of negotiations or estimation. For example, a worker at mcdonald's can't actually say that his boss' share for investing capital is too much, because he is required to work for him to sustain himself. If farmers choose to set their wages at extremely high prices, a free exchange of goods would allow others to replace them and produce at cheaper price. This is called the law of competition. So yes, it does appear that markets + self-ownership through democratic structures/co-ops seems the way to go.
>>18243383>Or, in other words, through the cost of production and the wages that people are willing to work at.Labor value is workers times extended to produce product not costs.>Markets solve this. IMarkets can't solve this because labor value is constantly off from market price.
>>18242155You literally fell for Cold War propaganda>Communism: stateless, classless society>Fascism: hyper-nationalist, racial hierarchy, corporatist stateThese are not the sameIt's all authoritarian is braindead horseshit that erases history. One ideology's end goal is dissolving the state, the other worships it as a god. One is about worker ownership, the other is about serving capital.You are just LARPing as an enlightened centrist while swallowing liberal and fash propaganda whole. What a cuck.
>>18243599>If people voluntary trade with one another to exchange goods, then there is no exploitation.Peasant scum sell grain that has 100 hours of work expended for price that allows him to buy goods 300 hours of workers labor. That's is " voluntary" exchange worker has no choice because his would starve if doesn't enter this exchange. But that's exploitation despite been "voluntary .Free market has way to come out of this contradiction only Dictatorship of The Proletariat and death squads send to confiscate grain fron politically unconscious peasants can.
>>18244212Grain isn't just 100 hours of work. It is also land, risk, tools, seed, and knowing WTF you are doing. Worker's 300 hours is just him following orders in a factory he doesn't even own.>no choice but to starveCringe-tier self-own. Under your death squads, worker has no choice and starves. Peasant just stops growing extra grain. Congrats, you played yourself. Now everyone is equally poor and equally dead. Commies, everyone!
>>18244204>One ideology's end goal is dissolving the stateWhen communists ever planned to actually dissolve the state? In 80s USSR had plans to finally build communism around 2000-2010. Their plans had zero plans to exterminate state official. No plans to imprison, kill, starve them etc.You may say it's too radical but communists were never shy about violence and extremism. That is core Marxist teaching, revolution and violence is an answer to everything. When Communists fought bourgeoisie they used all of that: murder, confiscation, imprisonment, starvation, expulsion. Not only against big bourgeoisie but also against small like peasant scum. This is how communists acted when they actually wanted to solve a problem.State problem? They never had plans to exterminate state enabling officials. Judge them by their act.
>>18244222> When communists ever planned to actually dissolve the state?Gorbachev literally did it.
>>18242795>Peasants refuse to sell grain to State>Well then they refuse to sell grain to the State ? Am I missing something ?The peasants were massacred by the state by the millions for this exact thing under communism, most infamously during the “Holomodor”. Having been forced to sell all their grain they proceeded to starve to death en masse.
>>18242155>and economic principles are fundamentally opposedNot really. If anything both the Soviets and Italians practices formed of State Capitalism before ww2, only difference being the Soviets were better at it and stopped their NEP sooner than the Italians did. Even during ww2 and afterwards materially both did not change enough from one another to be considered radically differentYugoslavian market socialism finds it's origins in the Italian Social Republic. Also Mussolini believed both the Social Republic and Soviets to be socialist in natureAlso I deserve the flute
>>18242778Property rights were invented when the first strong caveman determined a rock was his and was able to use violence and/or influence to prevent other cavemen from taking itModern property rights exist because those who hold a monopoly on violence, either globally or locally, understand that you need to have property rights for a prosperous and orderly society, and literally only retarded irrelevant terminally online leftists and zero iq criminals are upset about it.
>>18242778>The whole point of it was that workers are forced to accept a wage inferior to the sum of the products they made because they don't really have a choice in determining how much of the capitalist's investment and "idea" is worth.You need to define a proper measurement of what the "value" of the product is before you can declare the boss "stole" it. If the workers produce widgets and none of them sell, the boss eats the loss and the worker still have their salaries. If you would rather peg your compensation to the company's performance you can work in a commission based role like sales. Also the worker can negotiate, it's called quitting your job and working somewhere else. You can also do strikes, but the boss can negotiate back (hiring scabs). All of this is allowed in modern day america so I dont know why commies like you bellyache so much
>>18242155>their core ideologies, goals, and economic principles are fundamentally opposed. Fascism developed in direct opposition to communism.On paper yes, but not in practice.On theory communism advocate for the abolishment of the state, abolishment of class, abolishment of kapital (property, money etc).In practice, communism becomes the complete opposite; an extremely totalitarian statist single-party dictatorship of militarism and nationalism, governed by a wealthy elite against the collective masses, the population and the production mobilized for the state by the state.Basically; Communism in practice becomes what fascism is in theory.
>>18245163>so I dont know why commies like you bellyache so muchIt's because their bogus worldview was exposed for a sham and they refuse to accept it.
>>18244212Did you even read what I said ?"If farmers choose to set their wages at extremely high prices, a free exchange of goods would allow others to replace them and produce at cheaper price. This is called the law of competition. So yes, it does appear that markets + self-ownership through democratic structures/co-ops seems the way to go."Also lmfao what is the way to come out of this in capitalism ?
>>18245320>a free exchange of goods would allow others to replace them and produce at cheaper price. This is called the law of competition.Free market sets price at market price not labor value price.
>>18245324How do you think self-owned people set the price for their good ? The market price is independent from the LTV or the marginalist theory. The LTV (and the marginalist theory) only describe from _where_ the price comes from, not what it amounts tolmfao you guys are so hellbent on proving Marx wrong that you don't even take the time to understand anything that he says. Genuinely insane
>>18242155I choose the Solomon Option: say you're going to cut the flute in three and give it to whoever is willing to relinquish their claim to keep the flute intact.
>>18245331>The market price is independent from the LTVThat is the point.
>>18242213No YOU are the communist
>>18242155If she made it with her materials it's hers and you would be stealing it if you gave it to someone else or kept it. It's not political, it's the way it is.
>>18242213Chuds triggered :D
>>18248630:DDD
