Why was racial nationalism such a failure compared to civic nationalism?
>>182432611. Nobody is racially pure except for inbred people.2. Other races can assimilate, the best way is through military service but it can happen.3. Being racist alienates you from every other country. Fascist Italy would have no issue striking deals with arab countries, asian countries, African countries etc. Nazi Germany would have to engage in mental gymnastics to justify why working with the Japanese is okay (they're honorary aryans for some reason)
>>18243261Nationalism only has any power when the nation is racially homogeneous. Remove the racial homogeneity, and nobody will be a nationalist either. In other words, nationalism was a more socially acceptable alternative to racial self preferential tendency.
>>18243261Was it? Racial nationalism seems to be winning across the world.Israel, China (they’re all one race even if not one ethnicity), Africa (Niger-Congo vs the Euro), La Raza.Racial nationalists are sweeping up.>>18243283>1Untrue and irrelevant>2False>3False
>>18243296>Untrue and irrelevantTrue and relevant.>FalseTrue>FalseTrue>Israel, China (they’re all one race even if not one ethnicity), Africa (Niger-Congo vs the Euro), La Raza.All multi-ethnic countries. Race is just a social construct.
>>18243261HAHAHA This fucker thinks a euphemism for ethnocide is more successful than the default (only) tribalism since the beginning of mankind.
>>18243299>Race is just a social construct.Race is not a social construct, it is a biological reality. Two people of the same race can not have children of a different race. You can test the DNA of a person to determine what their race is. Everyone isn't brown genetic slop yet, and God willing you abominations will all be wiped out again before too long.
Because it's inherently expansionist and violent, and destroys itself in wars.
>>18243312This response is so retarded I can not believe that (presumably) a grown man unironically typed this. I don't even want to dignify this with a response but I will so you can't cope and say I ran away.>Two people of the same race can not have children of a different raceTwo ethnic Germans cannot produce an ethnically Russian child. Ethnicity is real, nobody is contesting this retard. Race is different from ethnicity. Italians were once considered not white, now they are. Same with Slavs. Know why this is? Because it's a social construct. There is no cope, I utterly refuted you and any attempt to attack this point is pure retardation and mental gymnastics.>God willing you abominations will all be wiped out again before too long.God finds you repulsive btw. I won't respond again, this is your last (You)
>>18243261civic nationalism is an oxymoron. do you just mean multiracial/ethnic polities? those work for stability when the state keeps them from murdering each other, but when ethnic warfare is the goal to avoid the public from focusing on the state oligarchs and their cronies, that's a major issue. singapore realized this decades ago seeing as they were much smaller, it'll only be a matter of time before the us and eu do.
>>18243261Racial nationalism doesn't exist. People have always mixed and tribes have integrated foreigners long before civilization even existed. Prussia itself owed its existence to the assimilation of Slavic and Baltic natives and prided itself on its military discipline that applied to all strata, not its pure blood. They successfully integrated all kinds of people: Dutch, Flemish, French Huguenots, Austrian Protestants and even Jews (the Haskalah and assimilationist Reform Judaism started in Germany). Nazis were just retarded and used Jews as a scapegoat, just as the military did before. They even failed to prove libel with shit like the Jewish census which embarrassingly showed that Jews were just as patriotic as their German countrymen.
>>18243331You're conflating nationality with race, they are not the same. Nationality is a social construct, but race is a biological reality.
>>18243390what did they assimilate them into? some arbitrary lines on a map?
>>18243283>they're honorary aryans for some reasonliterally a myth
>>18243261racial nationalism only works if you live in an actual collectivist society, like the East Asians. specifically Japanese and Chinese. maybe arabs/near easterners as well given how close knit Islam is but not really.racial nationalism doesn't work among any kind of european, churka, african, slav, jews, turkics etc., they have a history of backstabbing, duplicitous behavior, and they evolved through thousands years of war. europeans and africans especially being a product of constant turbulence and their very physiology and IQ being reflective of this.once again, just because it didn't work for your people doesn't mean that the system is flawed.
>>18243296>IsraelThe Jewish conception of their race is a bit different because it's passed down matrilineally. A Jewish woman can marry a non-Jew but their kids will be Jews according to Jewish law. Find me a white nationalist who would accept white women having children with non-white men. At any rate, the Jews are relatively particular like that, but I think the role of culture also holds them together. A lot of them don't really understand the spells they're casting during Jewish holidays but they do them anyways because they don't want to be the generation that drops the ball on keeping it going:https://youtu.be/Ii3Z65s0XSk>>18243261>Why was racial nationalism such a failure compared to civic nationalism?I dunno but civic nationalism is probably more flexible. You have to think about what nationalism even is, exactly. Like it's a certain kind of subjectivity that starts with asking questions like "who am I" or who "we" are. There's also an empowering aspect of it because your "people" develop a shared identity and then form a government and create a nation-state which is sovereign and has an army, so you're no longer being acted upon by others. Racial nationalism says what defines who "we" are is biology which is carried in the blood. The most notorious example of that is Nazism which combined this with racial struggle. But let's say you expand, how do you incorporate new subjects into your Volksgemeinschaft? They have to meet certain racial criteria. Compare that to, say, a pan-European kind of civic nationalism.Israel again is odd because they've conquered Arab territories inhabited by non-Jews and simply can't convert these people because it doesn't work like that. Israel is a Jewish state yet Jews also come from different cultures. This video below shows Jewish performers during a holiday (Purim), and the singer is singing in Arabic (her family is from Yemen) and the DJ's family was from Iraq, it's an LGBT party too:https://youtu.be/0u0xQ3i1jqc
>>18243645>simply can't convert these people because it doesn't work like that.That's why they're genociding Palestinians lmao.
>>18243261Because racial nationalism literally always purity spirals. Niggas start chimping out on their own neighbors who they peacefully lived alongside for centuries because suddenly they get this weird idea of ethnic purity being necessary for the state, e.g. Poland treating Ukrainians like shit and Ukrainians treating Poles like shit within their respective interwar borders
>>18243296>IsraelI swear you faggots have never even done the most superficial cursory glance at Israel's actually domestic dynamics.Israel is anything but a pure 'ethnostate', you have to be fucking blind to genuinely believe that Yemenite Jews and Ashkenazi Jews are the same ethnicity lmao.Israel actually serves as a great example of how race is a social construct of feels over reals. The fact that anyone could psyop themselves into believing that pasty ass white dudes from Poland and Arab looking Jews from Iraq are "one people" is utterly insane, yet here we are.
>>18243695i don't know how that retard even got the idea that israel wasn't civic nationalist. contemporary jews are just mutted up slavs and italians. arab lebanese have more to do with old israelites than jews do
>>18243409Unironically yes, that's exactly what Prussia and Prussian identity was, literally random chaotic borders united solely by adherence to the Hohenzollern dynatsy and its bureaucracy.Some of the most diehard Prussian patriots were Masurians, a Slavic ethnicity which spoke a language similar to Polish, but with the key difference being that they were Lutherans and hence loyal to the von Hohenzollern dynatsy.Prussian was never a long established tribal identity the same way that Swabian, Franconian, or Frisians had been. Prussia was the USA of Germany in that sense, united more by ideas and civic allegiance than by anything else.
>>18243700He literally fell for a 19th century meme. The Founders of Zionism wanted to join the European Ethnostate LARP that was taking off at the time and thought that they'd found some cool Jewish Ethnostate where everyone was a Viennese intellectual. The arrival of Middle Eastern Jews was a genuine shock to the Ashkenazi Israelis in the 1940s-50s because they were flabbergasted at how foreign and different their "fellow Jewish kin" were to them.With all the talk about Israel, I think it's often understated that the massive population transfer that occurred post-1948 has really been an enormous extinction event of various unique Jewish cultures across the world as they've all been uprooted and thrown into the USA tier melting pot blender of modern day Israel. Israel has 1/8 Jewish Russian dudes living alongside these dark brown Yemenis or Iranian Jews and both playing along with this neo-Israel identity.
>>18243695>The fact that anyone could psyop themselves into believing that pasty ass white dudes from Poland and Arab looking Jews from Iraq are "one people" is utterly insane, yet here we are.Eh, collective identity is often imposed on people first and then they use nationalism as an organizing principle. Like that Tair Haim video I posted, if you look into the comments on some of her Arabic language songs about Yemen you'll see comments in Arabic that are like, "what business do you have spreading your evil jinn sorcery in Sanaa, we're glad we got rid of you!" Okay they went to Israel, which seems counter-productive for these people in Yemen who consider themselves anti-Zionist, but that's how it was:https://youtu.be/2DGiUVTGGfc
>>18243711>Israel has 1/8 Jewish Russian dudes living alongside these dark brown Yemenis or Iranian Jews and both playing along with this neo-Israel identity.I heard an Israeli journalist describe Israeli politics as actually kind of like Lebanon in the sense you have these sub-groups that vote for specific parties. Like there's a right-wing secular nationalist party with its base in Russian speakers, and then there's a religious Zionist party that has a base in Middle Eastern Jews. The historic center-left / labor / now generic liberal centrist sort of parties like Yesh Atid are overwhelmingly Ashkenazi iirc. There's also apparently a French-speaking neighborhood in Tel Aviv.
>>18243261Racial nationalism is always undermined by individuals that exist outside of the preferred in-group and/or individuals who sympathize with the out-groups. This is basically what happened to the United States in the late 19th century and is currently happening to the UK.Civic nationalism eventually fails for the same reason. A host nation which is explicitly taught to ignore race and support egalitarianism, which brings in outsiders who do not abide by that creed, eventually collapses to the interests of racially organized demographics. This is because participation in civic nationalism is bound only by things which are wholly capricious.
>>18243261The Bourgeoisie considered one to be a threat and the other to be a tool
>>18243688This. One of the most infamous cases is the Balkans, where Christians "Rumelians" turned on each other because of Nationalism.
>>18243261Racial nationalism was the default type of nationalism throughout human history until the end of WW2. That's when the communists and jews won and started pushing globalism, multiculturalism and normalization of interracial breeding.
>>18244587/thread/
>>18244605What do you mean communists? Surely you mean liberalists.
>>18243261Imagine being this cucked by globohomo. Civic nationalism is a cope for nations that have already lost. It's a suicide pact where you replace your people with consumers and call it strength. Racial nationalism built every great civilization in history. Rome fell when it became a civic multicultural empire. Japan's cohesion and technological rise? Racial/cultural unity. Failure is what you get when your "nation is just an airport with an army, no shared blood, no shared fate, just GDP and decay.
You can only justify imperialism through civic nationalism.
>>18243703Pretty much. A Kashubian who did his military service was considered more Prussian than a German draft dodger. The monarchs even established formal hierarchies where nobility who served in the army had more privileges than those who didn't.
>>18243645jews overwhelmingly marry other jews. They are racial ultra nationalists and theyre winning.
>>18243283>Fascist Italy would have no issue striking deals with arab countries, asian countries, African countriesFaciait Italy had racial policies and tiers.>2. Other races can assimilate, the best way is through military service but it can happen.That's not assimilation. That's just using them as fodder for the military and unlike with proper citizens, colonials dying enmasse to fuel the frontlines is pretty much incentivized.
>>18244614>Japan's cohesion and technological rise? Racial/cultural unity.Lmao Japan had constant strife and civil wars for ages retard.
>>18243688>>18244603Yes the famous purity spiraling of Israel where their state has collapsed because of its racial nationalist character.>>18243695>israel isn’t a pure ethnostateSo what? Israel society is still one dominated by racial nationalism lmao.You do not need an ethnostate to have racial nationalism. Global jewry is a racial phenomena and transnational Israel is so powerful because of non-Israeli jews who pull for Israel due to racial nationalism.>race is a social constructJews are all 30th cousins you dumb nigger. Not my fault you don’t read the genetic research.Race is obviously real because ancestry is real. (You) are talking about racial essentialism which no one actually believes but it’s an easy straw man for you to knock down.Jewish identity is tied to ancestry. Race is defined by ancestry. Their racial nationalism, this nationalism based on shared ancestry, this is why they are dominating countries leagues beyond their weight class.>it’s le heckin insaneArab presenting jews cluster with the Polish presenting jews>BUT MUH PHENOTYPEPhenotype isn’t race.It’s not 1890 anymore. No one believes race is color. Race is ancestry and it always has been. A blonde child isn’t a different race from their sibling who has brunette hair.
>>18243424>once again, just because it didn't work for your people doesn't mean that the system is flawed.China wasn't really monolithic and Japan got two cities nuked and a third firebombed tk ashes for their imperial >>18245893>Jews are all 30th cousins you dumb niggerNot everyone is an Ashkenazi>Race is obviously real because ancestry is real. (You) are talking about racial essentialism which no one actually believes but it’s an easy straw man for you to knock down.Many Jews genetically assimilated over time with their neighbors or had gradual converts adding to the pool. >Race is ancestry and it always has been. That definition is even more flawed.
>>18243700That isn’t civic nationalism. You can not commonly get Israeli citizenship based on ideas you can only get it based on race.Keep coping. Racial nationalism wins and wins big and it absolutely trounces liberal democracies.>theyre le muttsThey’re the same race. Ethnicity is not race. Arab jews and Polish jews are the same race despite being a different ethnicity.Distance =\ ancestry btw. Admixture is ancestry and Arab jews and Polish jews have similar admixture. Furthermore, the majority of jews are of one ethnicity, Ashkenazim.>>18243711>heh it’s a heckin larp to have an ethnostateYou are retarded. Ethnostates exist de facto because given time populations will stabilize genetically.>middle eastern jewsAll 2% of them came as a shock.LOLYou have zero data on this lmfao.>massive population transferMost jews by far are ashkenaz or European Shefardim you moron.Furthermore, ALL jews are within the same race, they are ALL within this Cypriot adjacent cluster, yes even the Ethiopian ones represent a southern extreme of this east med cluster.Racial nationalism works. Your multiracialism is retarded because certain groups for biological reasons have different behaviors.Yeah, Marx was fucking wrong. Materialism incudes biology and biology cruelly states blacks are not equal to Whites.You lost.>>18243731These are all racial jews and 30th cousins.You know nothing about jewish ancestry.Israel is a racial nationalist state because jews are racial nationalists.They are winning because racial nationalism is a superior idea.
>>18245897The 30th cousin includes non-Ashkenazi you tard.Also yes, most of them are Ashkenazi.The racial nationalism of the Ashkenazi is what drives Israeli society. Even if Israel was 80% black, this would not change the fact the primary driver of Israeli power is racial if not ethnic nationalism among Ashkenazi jews globally.China is a racial nationalist state. They have no races besides Eastern Asian in their ruling coalition and comprising a majority of their nation.Japan getting bombed wasn’t a result of their racial views lmfao.>jews assimilatedNope. Genetically they are overwhelmingly a distinct identity and overwhelmingly self identified jews cluster within the eastern Mediterranean cluster.>erm that definition is flawedThat definition is a description of the strategy that is currently dominating, it is racial, it is aggressive, it is imperialistic, and its running circles around civcuck liberalism.I don’t need theory to make observations about what is objectively winning.You lost. Materialism must adapt to biology or follow leftism into extinction.
>>18243261Civic nationalism is a older and more tested idea.I mean the American/Anglo conception of 'race' is under 400 years old.And, naturally, it's harder to divide people over something like race, an immutable characteristic which doesn't inform much, vs something like one's culture or beliefs.
>>18245910>They have no races besides Eastern Asian in their ruling coalition and comprising a majority of their nation.Han chauvanism is rampant in China>Genetically they are overwhelmingly a distinct identity and overwhelmingly self identified jews cluster within the eastern Mediterranean cluster.With a fuckton of non-Jewish ancestry.>That definition is a description of the strategy that is currently dominating, it is racial, it is aggressive, it is imperialistic, and its running circles around civcuck liberalism.Dominating what?
>>18245889>Faciait Italy had racial policies and tiers.Not for the majority of it's existence. Fascism was always non-racialist. The ideology is rooted in actual idealism which allows no room for racial ideology. Only beginning in 1938 following pressure from Nazi Germany did Italy pass racial laws, but they were never strictly enforced. “Italy has no Jewish question at all. The Jews there are completely assimilated.” - Joseph Goebbels, 11 January 1938“The Italians are not antisemitic. They simply do not understand our racial policy.” - Joseph Goebbels, 6 May 1938“In Italy there is no racial problem. Fascism has so far ignored the race question entirely.” - Joseph Goebbels, 14 April 1938“Italian Fascism lacks any real racial consciousness.” - Alfred Rosenberg, internal Nazi commentary, c. 1936“The Italians think politically, not racially.” - Joseph Goebbels, 7 November 1937“Rome still does not grasp the necessity of a clear racial line.” - Joseph Goebbels, 22 February 1938“The Italian people are not racially minded in our sense.” - Adolf Hitler, 1937“Italian Fascism developed without any racial doctrine.” - Alfred Rosenberg, 1935“Race? It is a feeling, not a reality: ninety-five percent, at least, is a feeling.” - Benito Mussolini, 1921“There is no such thing as a pure race; race is not a biological fact but a historical and spiritual one.” - Benito Mussolini, 1934“The nation is not a race. It is not a fact of nature but a spiritual reality.” - Giovanni Gentile, 1929>That's just using them as fodder for the military and unlike with proper citizensThey can be used that way, but when not put into segregated units and trained and broken in with normal citizens, it is one of the best ways to assimilate someone. All you have to do is just ask any soldier.
>>18243261Racial nationalism has never worked well for a country in the long term.
>>18245917Ethnic supremacism typically goes along with racial nationalismNon-Jewish ancestry is VERY low among all jews across the board.Jews are dominating American and British politics, the Elison family alone is a force of nature in the U.S. and UK, they sell policy as service, black rock dominates the U.S. housing market, Israeli’s various state lobbying efforts, not even mentioning their private figures like Miriam Adelson, is the most influential faction in the U.S. at present.Israel as a state is winning a seven front war.Race politics wins.
>>18246147That’s like saying exercise has never worked well in the long term because people who exercise die anyway.
>>18245897>China wasn't really monolithica revisionist take conceived by historians from civnat countries who are insecure about how mongrelized their nation has become. either these "historians" have a sour grapes view of racial nationalism (since their country failed at it, as is the case with Germany who went from hating slavs to having legions of slavs defend it) or they have a deep rooted fear in a nation prioritizing itself over individual interests (a prevalent sentiment among nations that prosper through questionable middle man work under a capitalist system, and/or extreme nepotism. anglo whites/jews fit in this category). no different from overblown "akshually japan had black samurais everywhere.. just look at the dreamy black bull yasuke!!" nonsense that americans keep pushing.China is perhaps the largest monolithic country in the planet. from the mongoloid border to the southern coast and they all called themselves Chinese. the invader dynasties were exceptions but the "mongolian" and "manchurian" ethnic pride became a mere social inertia and ended with Chinese racial nationalism slaughtering raping and killing every manchurian and mongol to where one doesn't exist and the other is locked into being a brothel for rich russians and arabs forever.i don't know what the rest of your comment is about but you're probably a neurotic contemporary "jew" (an autistic gay white dork) so i won't bother deciphering it.all you need to know is you're typing on a keyboard made in china, looking at a screen made in china to know racial nationalism won
>>18243261Countries are real while race is not. People will fight and die for their homes, loved ones and their place in the world, not for the melanin level in someone else skin
