Why do meso-americans take "credit" for things like chocolate and vanilla when coping with the reality of their very primitive society given the year the west encountered them....? Isn't that an awful thing to use as the face of your accomplishments since it's just a plant that occurs natively and it took the west to encounter it to find an actual good use for it? doesn't that suggest the opposite of what you're trying to suggest?
>>18243616>why do they take credit for things they invented/cultivatedGee idk anon.
>>18243342
>>18243620They invented the plant?Because archaeobotany says the plant isn't much different to what it was before human inhabitation. So not quite buddy. Lmfao Not quite XD NOT QUITE LMFAOOOO NOT QUITE LMFAOOOOOO XDDDDDDDDD
>>18243620well that's kind of a ridiculous statement.
>>18243616Because it makes them feel better and it's not limited to Meso-Americans. Same with any "immigrants are just <developed nation citizens> with better food" propaganda.Europe had few native plants and hardly any of them are tasty. Attributing their ancestors living near spices and other flavorful plants to the intellectual, cultural, or moral superiority of their race/ethnic group is the only way they can re-balance the scientific and technological dominance Europeans had over them.
>>18243616The fuck do you mean by "Meso-americans"? How the fuck would people who haven't really existed since the 1600s claim anything? And i doubt you've been having many internet arguments with the closest thing to them that exists in the modern day, which would be fucking native Guatemalan subsistence farmers who can't even speak Spanish let alone English assuming they even have internet access in the first place. I also don't believe your claim that these supposed "Meso-americans" believe that those two specific crops are the face of their accomplishments since maize is objectively the more sacrifice impressive oneAnyways, to answer your question, because they did in fact domesticate those crops and they were indeed the first ones to use them for culinary purposes (presumably what you meant by "good use"), which is by your own metrics a big achievement, unless you're arbitrarily only counting solid brown milk chocolate as a worthwhile form of chocolate, which is just your personal opinion>>18244033It says a lot that you're going out of your to only mention those two and not maize, imagine how ridiculous you'd look if you unironically claimed domesticated maize isn't much different from its wild counterpart lol
>>18243616Because Latinx need a reason to look back into history and be proud. The dysgenics need reasons to justify hating white people/Europeans.
>>18244046>>18244071samefag
>>18244068>It says a lot that you're going out of your to only mention those two and not maize, imagine how ridiculous you'd look if you unironically claimed domesticated maize isn't much different from its wild counterpart lol>basically taking something I SPECIFICALLY didn't say to try to construct a strawman>the absolute fucking state of brown people's bitterness at white superiority.The absolute fucking state of brown people's bitterness at white superiority. :)
>>18244068>Anyways, to answer your question, because they did in fact domesticate those crops and they were indeed the first ones to use them for culinary purposes (presumably what you meant by "good use"), which is by your own metrics a big achievement, unless you're arbitrarily only counting solid brown milk chocolate as a worthwhile form of chocolate, which is just your personal opinion>first to use them for culinary purposes.my brown friend, please compare the LATEST aztec use of the cacao plant and the earliest European uses for it. Aztecs likely used it as effectively some crudely prepared tea-like beverage to be consumed during ritual human sacrifice, I'm not even being funny. Meanwhile within a century of encountering the crop Europeans create a foodstuff that is GLOBALLY successful and must be produced at such scale just to fill demand. There is nothing else that needs to be said with regard to this plant to reinforce what we ALL know to be true when comparing these two cultures (species). Any other arguments? Anything else to say? Cheer up! :)
>>18244116
>>18244116An American from the Mesolithic Era.
>>18243616>be you>literally too retarded to understand domesticationMaize, tomatoes, beans, squash, chili peppers, avocados, all selectively bred from wild shit by primitive societies over millennia.>chocolateIsn't just picking a bean, you fucking mong. It's a multi-step fermentation and processing tech invented by aztecs.They had complex agriculture, cities larger than contemporary european ones, and advanced mathematics/astronomy while europeans were smearing shit on the walls during the plague.>took the west to find a good useThey were using it as currency, in rituals, and as a beverage for centuries. Europe just added sugar because their palates were unrefined.>if a tree falls in the forest and a european isn't there to patent it it's not an accomplishment :DStay mad that the foundation of your cuisine and half your diet came from the primitives you seeth over.
>>18244091>likelyYou talk as if they were some obscure archaeological culture and not very well-attested in the historical record lolIt's not "likely", we know EXACTLY what they used it for, and it was to make chocolate, europeans primarily made and consumed chocolate in almost the exact manner mesoamericans did, as a beverage, all the way until the 1800s, they weren't making fucking cadbury milk chocolate candy bars in the 1600s you fucking retard KEK>crudelyHow would you know or define that?>tea-like Chocolate is tea now?>to be consumed during ritual human sacrifice, I'm not even being funny. You are though, it was first and foremost a regular drink casually consumed by nobility for recreational purposes, it wasn't specifically nor primarily for human sacrifice lol>Meanwhile within a century of encountering the crop Europeans create a foodstuff that is GLOBALLY successful and must be produced at such scale just to fill demand. ...something they only did because they saw what the pre-columbian americans did with cacao beans. What, did you assume the spaniards shipped cacao pods to europe because they just subconsciously knew it would make good food and not because they saw how the people they had just conquered made a drink out of it and loved the thing so goddamn much they literally turned cacao seeds into a currency? And see the first point, they still didn't invent chocolate and you don't get to claim authorship over something you didn't make because you popularized it lol
>>18244116[serious hat]Mezzo (italian) or Meso, or Medio, means "middle". It's the isthmus between North and South American continents. In practice it pretty much means central Mexico down to western Honduras, because there was desert north of it and a lot of jungle savages south of it.In between, the Purempecha, the central Mexican valley, the Mixtec and especially the Maya and Olmecs had an impressive run at civilisation. Despite being a few thousand years behind classical Latin/Greek/Canaanite civilisation.
>>18244264>europe is actually backwardI'm not him but:yeah definitely that's why they show up on boats and literally dominate two continents in the span of about a century; despite the logistical nightmare it would be to actually compete against a competent civilization the way they did against the ones they encountered historically. I know its a hard trvke to deal with but Amerindian civilizations were literally effectively stoneage civilizations with some mildly impressive innovations that serve as nothing more than historical novelties. Sorry. There's no amount of mental gymnastics you can do to avoid this reality.
>>18244232>>18244264I want you to think about the wall of text you just wrote in defense of what I believe is the civilization you identify with. How are you going to say with a straight face knowing the outcome of history that these people are refined or advanced when compared with Europe. BTW The Europe they faced was one that had their population halved by plague only 150~ years prior. Do you understand how superior they were by every quantifiable metric to the Amerindian civilizations? Like even if you pretend it's because of the ((Jared Diamond)) reasons, it's still not a reality you can negotiate.
>>18244283> muh superiorityCongrats on winning the Pandemic Lottery I guess. That is not cultural superiority, just a biological fluke and a bigger immune system, but not better civilization stats.> TenochtitlanHad a sewage system and aqueducts delivering clean water when Londoners were drinking from the Thames full of sh*t and dying of cholera.> AgricultureFed millions with chinampas (floating gardens) more productive than contemporary European fields.> Mathematics/AstronomyMaya had the concept of ZERO centuries before Europe, calendar more accurate than the Gregorian even today.
>>18244291>cope 1pandemic lottery? Which weapon were they going to use against the Europeans? A wooden club with sharp rocks embedded in them or a wooden spear with sharp rocks embedded in them? some shit my son would make in our back yard here in America :).>cope 2.I think when you hear about the novel innovations of the aztec or any like non-european civilization, you conjure up some very grand images, because they're using these very flowery language for what is going on there. Aqueducts... in that city were pretty good, overall pretty solid, and if they were a long lost civilization from several thousands of years ago uncovered by archaeologists, we'd likely have to admit that that is some REAL early innovation, unfortunately the aztecs we encountered were people living in the stone age in 1600. No amount of sewage technology is going to change that reality. >cope 3The number one cause of death for people in "urban" mesoamerican society was famine. That's an archeological fact. >cope 4Their calendar is great. It is effectively the natural conclusion of a civilization that does not progress beyond the stone age to become incredibly obsessed with celestial bodies. Stonehenge is always considered such a marvel because it really tells us a lot about our most primal tendencies. Also this "concept of zero" cope is really tired and misunderstood, the first people to use 0 as an abstraction and not just a placeholder for value, were jeets.
>>18244277>>18244283Not a single thing you just said has anything to do with the topic at hand, which is chocolate/a "good use" for cacao and whoever came up with it first that being objectively the Mesoamericans lol>in defense of what I believe is the civilization you identify withI sincerely pity "people" like you, who only study whichever culture your consider your "ancestor's" history for the sake of childish ego feeding. I don't "identify" with Mesoamericans, I'm not even hispanic, the fact of the matter is that OP (whom i TOTALLY believe you are not btw) said something objectively wrong and I, the objectively much better read person on the subject, had to correct him, simple as lmao
Based Latinx Chads living rent free in whiteboi countries and heads
Why do these chads make modern losers seethe so fucking much? They've been gone for 500 years now. All this is is modern losers who can only relate to history via self inserting going "MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRAND DADDY CAN BEAT UP YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRAND DADDY!"
>>18243616>>18244033>>18244046The Mesoamericans are given credit for chocolate and vanilla within the context of cuisine: It's not just about Cacao the plant, but the processing and preparation needed to make it into chocolate as a dish/foodstuff.Furthermore, while less applicable to Cacao and Vanilla specifically, the Mesoamericans had particularly impressive feats of selective breeding and domestication: The difference between wild Teosinte and domesticate Maize is huge. The Aztec also had botanical gardens used as sites of study and experimentation with different crops and herbs, trying them in different growing conditions and stocking medical herbs. To say nothing of Chinampas as hydroponic farms, etcEven Francisco Hernandez de Toledo, Philip II's personal royal court physician and naturalist, said Aztec botanical and medical sciences were superior to his>>18244091The Mesoamericans (probably) didn't make solid chocolate products, but they had more preparations and uses for it beyond the archetypical beverage, which was absolutely not "crudely prepared". There was loads of specific steps and ingredients used to make it in different variations: Tons of different aromatics, colorants, additives etc which could require their own processing and steps to prepare and add to the drink, and rituals around how it was presented and drunkThere was an entire Mesoamerican spice, aromatic, and herb trade and industry (which also tied into their pharmaceuticals and sanitary industry) and which to a good extent was driven by to Chocolate drinks: Cacao and Vanilla themselves, Honey, Achiote, various Chilis, Epazote, Cacao Rose (Quararibea funebris). teonacaztli (Chiranthodendron pentadactylon?), mecaxochitl (Piper auritum or amalgo?), Chipilli (Crotalaria longirostrata? Extra unsure), hueinacaztli (Cymbopetalum penduliflorum?), eloxochicuahuitl (Magnolia dealbata?), Popcorn Flower/Izquixochitlcaxochitl (Bourreria huanita?), yolloxochitl (Magnolia mexicana?) etc.1/?
