You may not like it but it's true
>>18248921Jobbed to Mao, the biggest based retard in history.Sorry, Chang is a very big fraud
He wasn't that great. He's not even the greatest Chinese man of the century (he can have the third spot) He was very ambituous, but he simply was failed to achieve the dreams of the man he idolized. Credit where credit is due, he did singlehandedly deal with the Japanese issue, but after he was basically forced to by his contemporaries. Don't dislike him though, but Mao was just smarter and luckier than him where it mattered.
>>18248931Smarter? He created the worst famine in human history out of pure retardation. It wasn't even a matter of simply not giving a fuck like Stalin with the Holodomor, he genuinely was just that much of a dumbass that he accidentally killed up to 50 million of his own people. But he did ridiculously lucky by the Japanese attacking, Chiang getting kidnapped and forced to fight them instead of crushing him first, and being given Manchuria by the Soviets. Luckiest retard to have ever lived.
>random right wing retard is great, says the chud>look up his story>jobbed massively to everyone and sucked jap cockwow, greatest indeed
>>18248945That's why I said smarter and luckier where it mattered. Mao was a failed statesman, but he was the better general and in terms of conquering China he made the right choices, while Chiang didn't. And he was lucky that Chiang basically fought the wrong enemy for years and got rid of most of his competition.
The poster boy of turning an easy win into an L, a generational fumble of unprecedented proportions and dire consequences for all mankind.
Sun Yat-Sen was the only guy who seemed to genuinely want a better future for his people
>>18248985What easy win? Man faced impossible odds from the beginning of his leadership until the Korean War, which prevented the CCP from acting out their plans for invading Taiwan.
>>18248921I really like his smile
>>18248921>loses a civil war to an enemy that has 1/3 as many soldiers as you, no artillery, no armor, no air force, all while getting gibs from the US that are 10x bigger than the gibs they are getting from the Soviets
>>18249516>which prevented the CCP from acting out their plans for invading Taiwandon't modern taiwanese people hate him for being le ebil authoritarian or something? weird ass psyopped island, they shit on their own national founder but stan Japanese imperialism which was even more violent and illiberal
>>18250244Taiwan was Japan's model colony for 50 years, it was still imperialism, but it was not the equivalent to the experience of Japanese imperialism elsewhere.Also if you want to understand why they hate him you should learn about the white terror, so you don't say silly things like he was "le ebil authoritarian or something"Start with this NY Times article from March 29, 1947 about security forces killing 10,000 Taiwanese in random acts of violence after there were mass anti-war protestshttps://www.nytimes.com/1947/03/29/archives/formosa-killings-are-put-at-10000-foreigners-say-the-chinese.html?unlocked_article_code=1.-08.Lcg4.GMMiJz4WYSTY&smid=url-share
>>18250244Taiwanese hate him because they're a different ethnicity who want actual independence from China that he trampled on.
>>18250250wtf do these people expect, the ROC was beset by a much larger enemy and narrowly survived by the skin of its teeth. if the taiwanese who hated chiang were communists that would be one thing, but they're just mentally ill liberals who pine for an impossible fantasy scenario where the military cedes power to the masses in the middle of a siege. I understand why they hate him but I think it's coming from a very immature place, chiang's dictatorship is the only reason their coveted democracy could exist at all
>>18250259that's only true if you're referring to the headhunting austronesian monkey people
>>18250259Most of them are of Han ethnicity but their presence predated the post war Kuomintang though the indigenous austronesian cultures there are still alive. Hokkien,Teochew,Fukien whatever are still Han,theyre not Uyghur, these people exist and originated on the mainland China as well. They speak Mandarin too alongside local dialects just like Mainland.
>>18249516At first sure but once everyone united around him despite his repeated failures he still continued to fail.
>>18250265Taiwan had been given to China by the Qing dynasty in 1895, there was no history of ROC governance of it at all, and of course the GMD brought these anti-government protests on themselves with their hallmark extreme corruption and incompetence.
>>18250268>>18250271that's right, Han pirates exterminated the indigenous people but then they developed their own pirate nationality which Chang trampled on and declared it China.
>>18250228Manchuria. It gave the communists heavier arms than the KMT and a much larger force. The communists, hiding away in the north and west, got to Manchuria first and the Soviets broke their agreement with the KMT and gave Japanese heavy weaponry to them after the KMT started defeating them. The only army the KMT had that was better equipped was destroyed by a now stronger PLA force.
>>18250278The economy, industry, and quality of life of Taiwan grew exponentially under Chiang, far more than it did under the Japanese. Taiwan was also part of the Qing in 1683 and by Ming loyalists prior. Taiwan was part of China longer than Okinawa was part of Japan. Also the Taiwanese are divided on the subject. Saying the Taiwanese hate the KMT is like saying Americans hate the GOP or the British hate the Tories. Half do, half don't. Funny thing is the indigenous people of Taiwan are the strongest supporters of the KMT.
>>18248921>Retarded dictator was the greatest leader of the 20th century I doubt it
>>18250389>Funny thing is the indigenous people of Taiwan are the strongest supporters of the KMT.Is this really true? Do they just support modern GMD or are they actual Chiang apologists. First I'm hearing of this.But be that as it may, Chiang was unquestionably a brutal despot with a sprawling and aggressively murderous secret police. People having jobs under his regime should not excuse this. He also WANTED ww3 to happen as he saw it as his only way to regain control of china. Never mind hundreds of millions would die. He was a fucking psychopath.
>>18248921Chiang would absolutely love modern day China and loathe Taiwan. Today's CCP resembles his KMT more than Mao's CCP.
>>18251282No Chiang would loathe both the modern PRC and ROC because he is not running it. That was the beginning and end of his ideology.
>>18250250>but it was not the equivalent to the experience of Japanese imperialism elsewhere.Japanese masscred Taiwanese in 1895, while Japan never occupied entire provinces in China like Sichuan, Shaanxi, Gansu, Ningxia.By your retarded logic, mainland Chinese from Sichuan should love Japan and Taiwanese should hate Japanese.There was violent resistance against Japan from plains Aboriginals and Han from 1895-1915 and from mountain Aboriginals up to 1933.Japan killed like 5% of Taiwan's population between 1895-1902.Also, if Taiwanese hate Chiang because they love Japan, then they should love Chiang because that cuck refused to fight Japan until he was forced at gunpoint by Yang Hucheng in the Xi'an incident.
>>18248921He let the red army get away on the slim chance Stalin might let him have his son back
>>18248921He was appreciative of Henry George (which i like) but he lost to Mao.
>>18251392That's not why he let them "get away".Chiang regularly refused to commit his own troops to battles, and tried to force warlords to do all the fighting so he could seize control of warlord provinces after.During the war with Japan, the Sichuan warlord army sent 2 million troops against the Japanese, and the Yunnan warlord, Qinghai warlord and Gansu warlord armies all fought against the Japanese.Chiang reserved his own troops while he planned to seize control of warlord controlled provinces after the war was over.Chiang forced Guizhou warlords to fight the Communists during the Long March, he thought he needed to "save" his own troops.It turned out inaction turned his own troops useless, they folded and fled at the end of the civil war.
>>18251419Think for 5 seconds. If warlords with their own entire armies serves you, solely because your army is better and can slime them (and did previously), do you really want to throw away that army and have the warlords preserve theirs? KMT China was not a united country. And that's exactly what happened during the late civil war. Most of the warlord allies proved unreliable and disobedient. Even as the KMT was pushed back into Southern China, they were still disobedient. Yan Xishan (who was without a doubt the most upstanding of all the warlords) had to literally cry like a bitch to convince Li Zongren to return to Chiang and assist in Guangdong.Also Chiang's troops did engage both the Japanese and PLA in the following civil war and got pretty much destroyed.
>>18251386>they should love Chiang because that cuck refused to fight Japan until he was forced at gunpoint by Yang Hucheng in the Xi'an incident.For good reason. The commies did prove that they were the greater threat and the establishment of the united front only further provoked Japan into fully invading China, which they justified by saying the KMT were now allied to communism.
>>18250265The ROC is a foreign country, they expected the USA to protect Taiwan and not throw them to Chiang the butcher
>>18248921You mean Tojō
>>18251501Tojo had down syndrome. Konoe was better in every way, an educated aristocrat, not some mongrel army dog.
>>18251474>convince Li Zongren to return to Chiang and assist in Guangdong.Li Zongren's New Guangxi clique were not warlords retard, they were an internal rival KMT faction.Li Zongren and Bai Chongxi were original KMT members, and not just warlords who nominally recognised whatever government is in power, which is what the Yunnan, Sichuan, and Ma warlord cliques were.>Yan Xishan (who was without a doubt the most upstanding of all the warlords) Yan Xishan was the most treacherous and least upstanding and arrogant (not in the positive way).you only admire him for being a modernist against tradition, Yan Xishan basically had the closest ideology to the KMT and CCP in that they were all modern and anti-tradition.Yan Xishan literally retained Japanese war criminals to fight in the Chinese civil war (the CCP forces slaughtered most of the Japanese, killing 7,000 out of 10,000 and forcing the Japanese commander to commit suicide)Meanwhile the most reactionary warlords like the Sichuan warlords contributed most troops against Japan.Sichuan warlord army, which had inferior pre-modern rifles and swords, defeated Japanese in hand to hand combat in frontal chargesJapanese were forced to spray mustard and lewisite gas at Sichuan warlord troops, who wore straw sandals and used single shot rifles and swords to hack into Japanese lines at Yichang, Hankow and around Taierzhuang and Shanghai.While Yan Xishan's army who had the most modern equipment with modern rifles and machine guns lost most of his territory to within months.Yan Xishan bragged that modernism and technology made his army superior and he lost his entire province in months.Sichuan army troops with the most inferior traditional weapons charged into Japanese lines and shattered them.Sichuan warlords contributed most troops against Japan, and Yunnan warlord army sent tens of thousands and the Qinghai and Gansu warlords (Ma Biao and Ma Buqing and Ma Bukang) personally fought in the front lines.
>>18251474>>18251481>and the establishment of the united front only further provoked Japan into fully invading ChinaRetard, Japan got emboldened whenever there was no resistance, Japan would only have retreated if massive numbers of Japanese were slaughtered.Japan got emboldened after Manchukuo because Zhang ordered all his troops to stand down.Japan was steadily creating more incidents, trying to invade even more in Inner Mongolia up to the Xi'an incident.Feng Yuxiang tried forming Chahar People's Counter-Japanese Army in 1933, Chiang Kai-shek attacked and disbanded them.The warlord Fu Zuoyi fought against Japan in the Suiyuan campaign in Inner Mongolia in 1936 and defeated their Mengjiang puppets and killed the Japanese advisors.>>18251474>>18251481the two most technologically advanced warlord armies were the Fengtian clique of Zhang Xueliang and Shanxi clique by Yan Xishan.both performed horribly.In 1931, in the Mukden incident, Zhang Xueliang ordered his entire army not to resist and not fire a shot against the Japanese, to "not provoke them", resulting in Japan seizing all of "Manchuria" and forming Manchukuo.Zhang Xueliang's Fengtian army had mustard gas shells, fighter planes, tankettes and other advanced weapons and machinery imported from the west.Japan was emboldened to attack after this, since anti-war Japanese were worried about Japanese casualties, but the pro-war officers managed to take over since Zhang refused to fire a single shot.Meanwhile, the most reactionary warlords like the Sichuan army inflicted the most deaths upon the Japanese.Sichuan army stood its ground and charged into Japanese lines in melee attacks, forcing Japanese saturation mustard gas bombing.The ma clique warlords armies from Qinghai and Gansu also plunged into battle at West Suiyuan, Wuyuan and eastern Henan (Huaiyang) without retreating.Japan took severe attrition casualties, whenever Chinese armies stood their ground and refused to retreat.
>>18251494>the ROC was a foreign countryTaiwanese are racial cuckolds if they actually think they're anything but Chinese, sad if they're that mind broken.
>>18250766>aggressively murderousAs opposed to passively murderous?
>>18251542I'm obviously referring to the factional conflict and using Li Zongren as a very big example of it continuing near the very end of the civil war, dumbass.> Japan got emboldened whenever there was no resistance, Japan would only have retreated if massive numbers of Japanese were slaughtered. And yet, the United Front emboldened Japan more than anything prior to throw their full force into invasion and the following Civil War proved Chiang completely correct in his fears and desire to destroy the greater threat of the communists first.And I never said warlords didn't fight, I acknowledged that it's reasonable for Chiang to want them to commit their forces and said Chiang's forces did fight as well and took massive damage both in the Japanese invasion and following civil war. This tangent on who did most of what is irrelevant to my argument. How many divisions of Chiang's central army sat out the fighting and avoided heavy casualties and/or complete destruction in the war against Japan and CCP?
>>18248921not even the best ethnically chinese leader of the 20th century
>>18251593Chiang sent 120,000 troops to seize control of Xinjiang from pro-Soviet warlord Sheng Shicai, and force the Soviet Red Army 8th regiment at Kumul/Hami to vacate.There were both his own soldiers, with some troops from Ma Buqing's army (who Chiang forced to participate in this project instead of continuing to fight Japan)The 120,000 troops fought against the Soviet backed Ili rebellion from 1944-1946, instead of against Japan.China controlled the Tarim basin and Turpan basin while the Soviet backed Ili forces controlled only the three districts Ili region in the north.>emboldened Japan more than anything prior to throw their full force into invasion Japan was advancing only because of modernist retards who said they needed another 100 years to build modern factories, arsenals and another 50 years to equip a modern tank division before they could fight.>Also Chiang's troops did engage both the Japanese and PLA in the following civil war and got pretty much destroyed.Chiang preached relying on western technology and destroying China's social fabric to westernise it, like how Japan destroyed its culture in the Meiji restoration.Japanese soldiers were useless without technology. Natives on Pacific islands clubbed Japanese soldiers to death.Moros sliced Japanese soldiers to pieces in Mindanao and Sulu in the southern Philippines, with just melee weapons.They didn't wait 100 years to built a tank factory and train a tank division. They used machetes to hack Japanese to death.Japan was thoroughly modernised and westernised, relying on technological advantage.Japan only advanced when they didn't suffer enough attrition. Japan needed men, supplies and safe supply lines.
>>18251593>>18251674Using 5 million men with blackpowder muskets and machetes against Japan is better than "waiting" 50 years to equip and train a tank division (Which you are never going to complete and you know it because Japan would just take over the entire place without resistance in another 5 years if you didn't fight)the futility of the modernists literally showed itself in the Mukden incidentFengtian clique had a modern arsenal with western equipment in Shenyang and their army was armed with tankettes, mustard gas, fighter planes, artillery and machine guns gave up without a fight in the Mukden incident.If an army with all those advanced weapons didn't fight, why are you telling the rest of China to wait until they have those weapons?Then your demoralised troops will just throw them down without a fight. All of those weapons were useless, and just fell into the hands of the Japanese who used the Shenyang arsenal to make more weapons for their army.Yan Xishan dismissed the Sichuan army and ordered them to leave Shanxi.He lost his entire base in months, while Sichuan was never occupied by the Japanese.There was no modern arsenal, no tanks, no planes in Mindanao, where Moro civilians armed with machetes and at most some rifles, hacked Japanese soldiers to death, with the Japanese having full air support, mountain artillery and machine guns.look up the battle of Tamparan and battle of JoloJust like the Gan army of Fenghuang in west Hunan was armed with muzzle loading smoothbore matchlock muskets, muzzle loading smoothbore cannon and swords, and they blocked Japanese troops for 6-7 days somewhere in Shanghai.And the Sichuan army had just straw sandals, straw hats, grenades, swords and rifles.Sichuan army, Gan Army, Ma clique armies did not have any foreign instructors, no German training.Chiang was promising to equip another several useless divisions armed with the latest weapons and trained according to western patterns.
>>18251674You've outed yourself as a Khmer Rouge style primitivist retard with this response.
>>18251693Pol Pot was a modernist who wanted to destroy traditional society and literally used modern weapons.
>>18250374Where do people get this stuff? Literally every sentence in this post is wrong.1. The communists still totally lacked heavy artillery and armor after the capture of Manchuria, and more importantly had no air force, and the GMD outnumbered CCP forces in Manchuria until 1948.2. The communists got to Manchuria first but were forcibly evicted from every city within the first month of the war. The Soviets did not break their agreement. Chiang himself negotiated with the Soviets to remain in Manchuria longer.3. The GMD forces were better equipped all through the war until near the very end. I don't think you even have a basic understanding of the Manchuria campaign, because this is such a strange way to describe it.The GMD forces took over the cities but refused to go into the countryside because they knew the CCP forces lacked the heavy weapons to assault cities, so they were safe there. US General Barr, the head American military advisor during the civil war, described it as "the wall psychology." It was an issue of morale not supply, because they knew the rot started with the generalissimo. In late 47 the CCP started to cold siege the cities in Manchuria leading to Chiang's famous airlift that cost 50% of the entire national military budget to keep a single city in Manchuria supplied for 3 months.Chiang should have followed Barr's advice at the start of the civil war and just let the CCP have Manchuria, and concentrate his forces south of the great wall. In the end Manchuria wound up being the GMD's fatal mistake, because it cost them their best equipped troops. But it doesn't matter how many potent "made in USA" weapons a soldier has if they have no will to fight, and Chiang's soldiers didn't.
>>18251565What I meant was it was a particularly large and brutal state security apparatus that engaged in mass murder of its own people to keep Chiang from facing the consequences of his corruption and incompetence.
>>18251771False. They entered Manchuria with practically no artillery but were supplied by Japanese arms and have hundreds of artillery pieces by the time of engagement. They had superior firepower, including hundreds of artillery pieces, by the battle of Jinzhou. The NRA did have air power but it was no situation where they could bombard the PLA relentlessly like the US with Japan. They struggled to get planes in the air and find suitable targets when they could. By the end of the campaign, the PLA was far better equipped and outnumbering the NRA. You're blatantly confusing the beginning of the campaign with the end in the most ludicrous way imaginable. And yes, the PLA did retreat to the countryside, where they amassed a larger force than the NRA and assaulted their cities with. The NRA held onto the cities because they did not have the means to take the country and knew that losing the cities meant losing the war. At this point, this wasn't just a Manchuria specific thing. The CCP spread rapidly throughout the country in China and the KMT could do little but hopelessly defend cities until pushed back.
>>18251827>You're blatantly confusing the beginning of the campaign with the endread my post again
>>18251894>The communists still totally lacked heavy artillery and armor after the capture of ManchuriaWhich part, the lie about a total lack of artillery? The PLA won Manchuria WITH heavy artillery. Not without it. You falsely claimed that they had no artillery even AFTER winning the campaign and likewise falsely claimed that the KMT was better equipped until the very end of the war, when the PLA was better equipped and numerically superior by the conclusion of the Liaoshen campaign.
>>18251918I meant the initial capture of the countryside of Manchuria early in the war, not after manchuria had been fully captured. I see how what I wrote was inarticulate to what I meant to say, my bad.I agree with you that after Manchuria was captured Chiang was pretty much finished.
