This kills the atheist.
>theist: God always was and always will be>atheist: matter always was and always will be
>>18250293Unlike God, the universe had a beginning.
>>18250290Why do Christians love lying so much? It's almost like a sacrament to them. Virtually no atheist believes the proposition "the universe comes from nothing", and those few that would affirm it are using "nothing" to mean something completely different from what the Christian means.
>>18250304What existed before the Big Bang?
>>18250306No idea. Now that I've answered your question, answer mine. Why do you brazenly lie?
>>18250306Atheists generally are humble enough to say "We don't know yet, one day we may figure it out through scientific research". Instead of screeching "GOD DID IT! I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T DONE THE RESEARCH YET BUT GOD DID IT!"Think of it this way - hundreds/thousands of years ago, theists believed God/gods cast down lightning bolts from the clouds when he was angry and gave people diseases because of sins, etc. It's only because intelligent people were not satisfied with the "GOD DID IT" explanation that we now actually know what causes these things, and we're able to take measures against them instead of praying to non-existent deities to stop being angry.
>>18250290If the world came from nothing, why is there no life in other planets?
>>18250309You don't even understand the Big Bang. It theorizes that everything that "is" (the universe) appeared suddenly out of nothing and started expanding explosively.
>>18250316Why didn't you answer my question, Christian? I'll ask again. Why do you brazenly lie?>It theorizes that everything that "is" (the universe) appeared suddenly out of nothing and started expanding explosively.That is also a lie btw.
>>18250318If time and space began with the Big Bang (the mainstream theory held by science), then what came before is definitively "nothing". It's like saying there is something north of the North Pole.
>>18250321I will ask again, Christian. Why didn't you answer my question? Why do you brazenly lie?>If time and space began with the Big Bang (the mainstream theory held by science), then what came before is definitively "nothing". It's like saying there is something north of the North Pole.This is both false and nonsensical. The big bang theory deals with the rapid expansion of the universe from a very hot and very dense state. Our current theories are insufficient for describing anything before that. Furthermore, the (unsupported) view that you've sketched out does not even mean that "everything came from nothing" or that "there was nothing before the big bang" before under that specific paradigm, the phrase "before the big bang" is nonsensical and therefore you cannot assign some sort of "nothing" to it.You are a pathological liar as well as dumb, Christian.
>>18250324>the phrase "before the big bang" is nonsensicalYes, this is what I'm trying to explain to you in between your foaming at the mouth rants. Before the Big Bang, there was no space or time, since the laws of physics break down at that point. Hence, nothing.
>>18250290strawman, the atheist would actually say "we don't know because there is as of yet no way to observe evidence of it, and religious authorities were written by people with no greater knowledge of how the universe was created than you or I"
>>18250332There is no way to observe that prior to matter existing, there was nothing? That's a bit like saying there is no way to observe what happens when you turn the lights off, since it is dark and you can't see.
>>18250328Why didn't you answer my question yet, Christian? Are you really so terrified of answering it? Why do you brazenly lie?>Before the Big Bang, there was no space or time, I see you have no answer to the fact that this is unsupported. Not surprising from a person who worships lying.>Hence, nothing.No, Christian. Under this (unsupported) paradigm, it is not the case that before the big bang there is nothing. It would however be the case that the phrase "before the big bang" simply has no meaning. In other words, the meaning of the sentence you're trying to shill is the same as the meaning of "jfje cykebduevs shrjsb". You are trying to say that mainstream science claims "jfje cykebduevs shrjsb". Because you are a pathological liar, Christian.
>>18250290>the universe came from nothingName ten atheists who say that.
>>18250336maybe there was nothing, maybe there was something, we just don't know. But the fact that there is something now does suggest there must have been something before the universe began, even if that something was an entirely different kind of matter that functioned on an entirely different physics.I don't follow your analogy btw. The absence of light is observable, and what does that have to do with anything?
>>18250328Not that guy, but energy is thought to have always been existing, just not in the way we think it is. So, it was not nothing. True nothingness has never been observed. The dark black empty sky isn't nothingness; nothingness is more of a philosophical concept. As to what caused the expansion of space and time, this is still a mystery but probably had something to do with quantum fluctuation. The guy that proposed the Big Bang as a theory was a priest so not an atheist, so he obviously believed in the first cause, but he didn't explain how that cause occurred or even if the Big Bang was the first cause or a series of causes (assuming the multiverses exist) or just a natural phenomena with the cause being something else entirely and had nothing to do with Big Bang.
>>18250290Strawman argument. Literally no atheist says that the universe was created by nothing. They either say they don't know what happened or that the big bang wasn't the beginning of everything as there was no beginning.
>>18250344>>18250349Where is the observational evidence that before the existence of time and space at the Big Bang, that something else preexisted the universe?
This kills the theist.
>>18250352The observation of energy in itself. They are the universe before space and time itself expanded.
>>18250352The evidence is that matter|energy can't be created or destroyed.
OP is so neurotic that a black man staring at him is enough to shatter his belief system.>Yo yo yo! This nigga believe in a flying Rabbi!
>>18250357The universe had a beginning, while God is eternal (timeless, spaceless, unchanging). For the universe to begin existing, it requires something to cause it to exist. God does not begin to exist, He has always existed.
Even if we don't know the answer, that doesn't prove that scripture x and religion y is true at all.
>>18250359Here is a quick logic test for you: What is 1-1=?
>christian gets pushed on his lies for a bit>breaks down and becomes unresponsiveRemember, lads. Birds fly, fish swim, Christians lie.
>>18250361Why do you accept that yet you can't accept the eternity of energy?
>>18250365What if it's 1-0?
>>18250361Anything exists for a reason. If there's no reason for God's existence God doesn't exist. Doesn't matter how magical (timeless, spaceless, unchanging) He is.
Define nothing.No space, no time, no quantum fields, no laws. Not even the potential for something. True nothing.>now considerAbsolute nothing is inherently unstable. It's a logical contradiction. To even be nothing, it must be distinct from something. That distinction requires a relationship. A relationship is something.Therefore, true nothingness is impossible. It never existed. The question 'why is there something rather than nothing' is a false choice. There can only be something. The universe isn't from nothing. It's from the only possible configuration, which is The Existence.
>>18250361Belief in God is an anthropomorphization of nature and the universe itself. Especially when the human mind wants to simplify and rationalize the eternity of reality itself and its content with their creative mind due to their inability to comprehend it. It is not impossible for something beyond human comprehension to exist even for the things that can be explained but religious filters seem to cloud it with their own bias.
>>18250365There is no zero except as a number and concept because there's no true nothingness. It's not 1-1
>>18250365Where does negative came from? If there is 1 amount of matter|energy, it will always be 1.
>>18250363The first cause argument is just a smokescreen to steer people off the track. As a philosophical premise, it has its validity, but to claim religious exclusiveness is otherwise because any belief system can utilize it.
>>18250394No. Just no. First cause must be God and that God can only be Jesus.
>>18250367Eternity is an enigma in perpetuity. You can trace something that is infinite from its beginning if it has its beginning, though of course not the end, but you can't do that for something that has always been there, so the question of when energy exists will always remain a question.
>>18250396Wrong the Kalam argument also originated in Islamic environment. Again it's not a conclusive proof to prove why religion x and scripture y is true.
>>18250398Kalam makes no sense. Christian argument is the right one.
>>18250399It all sounds the same to me because it all sounds like "nothing cannot exist by itself therefore the first cause is my God".
>>18250396 #>>18250398 (You) #>>18250399 #>>18250404 (You) #Hellenistic philosophies also theorized about the first cause but they don't ascribed any divine being or personality to it like Zeus,Jupiter etc unlike other religions who ascribed the first cause identity to Allah, Yahweh,Jesus etc. These philosophies are later recycled by various religions, one of these philosophies is Neoplatonism.
>>18250391If I have one second and I subtract one second, how many seconds do I have?
>>18250416You can't actually "have" or "subtract" a second. If you disagree, film yourself doing it and post the video here.
>>18250422If one second has elapsed, and I go backwards in time by one second, how many seconds have elapsed? This is elementary school math.
>>18250290>So who created the universe?>I don't know. No one does.This mindfucks christian golem into catatonia
>>18250438Is "I don't know" an observable scientific statement?
>>18250443It's a valid answer. If somebody is lost and asking you for a direction to a place you don't know, it's not ethical to just make some shit and pretend you know shit.
>>18250433Show me a video of yourself doing that. You can't, can you? So all you're doing is talking about something that has no basis in reality.
>>18250290>strawmans kill atheistsMost sound christcuck philosophy
>>18250290Universe from nothing isn't magic. It's quantum mechanics, you absolute brainlet. Nothing in cosmology means no classical matter|energy, not magic sky daddy's empty garage. You are conflating we don't have a complete model yet with therefore my bronze-age myth wins.Atheist position = I don't know > Pretending to know based on a story with zero evidence.Your god is just a bigger magic claim with even less proof. GTFO.
>>18250361Special pleading. If God can exist for eternity so can the universe.
>>18250378Yes. Creatio ex nihilo is a religious belief, not a scientific fact, especially if you believe in a transcendental God that is not part of the universe that creates everything in existence.
>>18250361>rule exists>theists says ok sure whatever>rule applied to god thing>no no not like that it doesn't countok lol
>>18250297>I was there, I swear, I saw it>>18250304how many other atheists do you know? since your kind are into quantifying things, I'd love to see the graphs on this.>>18250312most atheists, in fact, are humble about very little and tout their intellect as some kind of achievement.
>>18250290The big bang is not the universe coming from nothing, it's the inflation 14 billion years ago. Most modern cosmologists and models are eternal.>>18250297No, it didn't.
>>18251378>Most modern cosmologists and models are eternal.Are they? How do they grapple with the thermodynamic fact that entropy should be infinite if the past is eternal?
>>18250290>I don't believe in God>I don't know how the universe came to beIt's that easy
>>18250481>If God can exist for eternity so can the universeIndeed, for the universe is god.
>>18251379Entropy doesn't erase energy. See the 1st and 3rd laws of thermodynamics. It just states that not all energy is sufficient to continue a process in an isolated system and therefore causing randomness and disorder.Space and universe are more than an isolated system. Then there's the CCC hypothesis which theorised that the universe cycles through aeons but this is not the mainstream theory, and entropy of our universe is probably possible with the heat death of universe but even this wouldn't erase energy altogether.
>>18250306how should i know, i'm just a stupid monkey
>>18250290Who created God?>no one did, he just existsWhy is it absurd then to imagine the universe always existed without a cause?
>nothing of the gaps
>>18251432based pantheist.
>>18250290this is dumb and assumes that everything happens for a cause. For all we know something in the future might retroactively cause the past, just like the antropomorphic argument presents, as it, existing as a human requires a universe with our current specs to exist. at the end of the day, even this claim is meaningless, because we can only observe things and our use of words is misguided if we present them in a different context. Thus metaphysical concepts of cause and effects are pretentions and disjointed from practical life. Science is directly involved as measurement of practical life
>>18252084Because 1) everything we observe about the universe is actually contingent, 2) if the past were infinite, entropy would be at 100%.
>>18250316Simply not true. Find and read the literature (the theoretical physics papers, not the pop science journalism) and you'll see that not only do they not make any claims or theories about states before the big bang, but they repeatedly remind the reader that they have no idea about before. One of the most common lies.
>>18250290>the world can't possibly come from nothing>but the guy who created the world? he has always been here o algo
>>18251379Why are christians unable to understand infinity bros, are ALL of them mentally challenged or just the vocal ones
>>18250290Who created God?
>>18252508This kills the christcuck.
>>18252505If I were you I'd also be doing my best to avoid spelling my argument out. It falls apart.
Im tired of having to read the poorly ordered thoughts of atheists
>>18252625Npcs like you don't get tired desu
>>18252508>>18252535God came from nothing. He is eternalWhy are atheists so stupid?
>>18252766Why are you so masochistic lol, at least uou're being paid eight bro
>>18252766
>>18252766>god can be eternal but the universe can't
>>18252766If he is eternal then he didn't come from anywhere. He would just exist. Eternity has no end or beginning.>>18252300Reality does not care about the rules and logic we use to understand it which is why it is so hard to get an idea of what is, and isn't.The scientific approach is based on observation and prediction but does not actually tell you what is and isn't. It gives you the most well reasoned argument for what is and isn't based on the evidence provided.
>>18253053Yes. Discussed itt.
>>18253064>Reality does not care about the rules and logic we useWe care about logic in our explanations.>The scientific approach ...gives you the most well reasoned argumentAgreed. And universe being infinite is currently decidedly not one of those.
>>18250290Fixed it for you
>>18250306Big Black Hole
>>18253070>And universe being infinite is currently decidedly not one of thoseSpace and time being as a singularity is not the same as saying there was no universe, but rather that there was no "before" as it would be completely meaningless from our understanding of time. There is nothing indicating that the universe came to be at a point of time, just that there exists a place-time that time is not time alone. Past is likely, according to our models, not infinite, but this doesn't necessarily apply to the universe, of whose existence is being conflated with time's existence in this conversation between you and that other anon. In all honesty, I believe this sort of thing is outside the bounds of our humanly understanding.
>>18253078>Dodges question>Pretends it's an ownPretty accurate except for pretending the Christian wouldn't laugh.
>>18250290For me its just about not making claims I can't backup with reasonable logic.I'll be the first one to praise God and his kingdom if you can prove which God and if he exists
>>18253331>I'll be the first one to praise God and his kingdom if you can prove which God and if he exists
>>18253341So suppose there's, in spite of you believing fabricated evidence, another God. What would you do?
>>18253341This is not sufficient, its likely of 12th century Origin anyways, substantial claims require substantial evidence. Proving God is real = Proving aliens are real. You need a spaceship in person, or some healing miracle happening with medical/science experts present to confirm its miraculous nature.Again, I want to believe you. But I can't throw my belief in somthing withought a strong reason to belive it.
>>18253341>le hoax of turinDuped
>>18253347I'll pray for you, but even God can't convince you if you aren't truly open to it. Since you're sincere here's a stronger piece of evidence (at least imo): the puritans landed on Plymouth Rock after much prayer to find a place to live in peace without Anglicans trying to supress their church. Where they landed had been abandoned after the indian tribe there was killed off. Squanto (one of the first Indians they met) just happened to speak fluent English (this was early colonial period where virtually no Indians spoke European languages). The place they landed just happened to have fresh water access and lots of geese to hunt (what the actual first Thanksgiving meal was not turkey). This is where the celebration in America comes from, because it's a clear example of a miracle since there's no way that many circumstances all align by random chance.As the the beginning of the book of Job points out, God allows all of us to be tempted and so he won't ever completely reveal himself. The good news is you only need the faith of the grain of a mustard seed to please God.
>>18253370I can only hope that if he exists he can be forgiving of my skeptical approach, but with so many religions across time, it seems very easy to make the incorrect choice.
>>18253370>there's no way that many circumstances all align by random chanceDo you not understand what the concept of a miracle is? It's not an event that is highly improbable but within the purview of the natural world, its something outside of it. Resurrecting the dead, splitting the Red sea, manna falling from heaven, a rock gushing with water after being hit by a staff, said staff transforming into a snake, ect. These events are impossible not improbable. God can very easily prove his existence to modern man the same way he has to ancient man, by performing an actual miracle. In the old testament there were no atheists because God manifests himself and performs impossible acts. The ancient Jews wandering the desert with Moses never stopped believing in the supernatural because they would always witness it. They just swapped one God for another, never saying hey these impossible events do not prove God's existence. But now when we have the technology to record these miracles, they suddenly cease. The most you get is a bleeding statue, or someone getting stigmata, but these are either proven hoaxes, or are unverifiable (for example if a man has stigmata, how can we be sure that he didn't inflict the wounds himself, while there were no witnesses, or the bleeding statue just has someone pour blood on it again when we have no witnesses).
>>18250297What happened before the beginning? Why was all the matter concentrated for the big bang?
>>18254589Your question literally makes no sense bro.
>>18250318Because it's a false premiseChristians don't love lying so much so I cannot explain why something that isn't happening is happening.Now can you answer why thousands of planes flew into buildings in new York yesterday killing hundreds of thousands? You might have difficulty explaining why it happened because it didn't actually happen but I'd like you to answer the question
>>18254593Sorry. I thought he meant the universe had a beginning. The big bang. And I'm asking what allowed that to take place. Why hasn't there been more big bangs?
>>18250290iirc one view, from the Boltzmann crowd, is that energy is produced from unknown sources over a long enough period.
>>18250306mommy and daddy universe had SEX and gave birth to our universe
>>18254625Materials came before survival and sexuality. Living things and things that never lived don't have the same agenda.
