The religious personality can never actually truly be moral because they're eternally stuck in a preconventional stage of moral development rooted in fear of existential punishment / desire for existential reward. They're no more morally mature than toddlers in that respect. True morality comes from recognizing the reciprocal nature of society and the underlying mutually shared obligation towards prosocial behavior all of us benefit from.
>>18253924>reciprocal natureLove your neighbor as yourself.
>>18253932It's not really about loving your neighbor inasmuch as recognizing that treating your neighbor well will more likely result in you being treated in kind.
>>18253933>treating your neighbor well will more likely result in you being treated in kindThat's not necessarily the case.
>>18253924>Those American boomers constantly screaming "law and order" will never understand the social contract and their moral obligation to the people around themGrim
>>18253924>The religious personality can never actually truly be moral because they're eternally stuck in a preconventional stage of moral development rooted in fear of existential punishment / desire for existential rewardIt’s entirely the opposite. It is the disbeliever who is entirely concerned with reward/punishment. They only care about what they think they can get away with. The believer is bound to the principle, the post-conventional, as you say, and started from there. The direct inverse of the atheist.
>>18254144It's more often the case than the opposite. If you treat your neighbors poorly, you'd be foolish to expect good treatment from them in the future.
>>18254173Nope, as your faith is entirely motivated by that preconventional view of reality. Without the stick of Hell or the carrot of Heaven, you'd cease to be religious.
>>18254202He's right, purely because atheists are obsessed with heaven and hell, alongside divine punishment.
>>18254218Atheists aren't the ones preaching about Heaven and Hell, the religious are. Your attempt at flipping the script is just silly.
>>18254202I believe that I am guaranteed to enter paradise, no matter what my faults are, as long as I die upon the religion. My striving towards morality is to get closer to the principle from which morality originates, as a form of worship. When I do good things, it is a form of worship, an expression of my devotion to the creator. It is good whether the results of the act are immediately positive or negative for me. This is the same for Jews, Christians, and Muslims, as far as I am aware.But you are correct to say “Without the stick of Hell or the carrot of Heaven, you'd cease to be religious.” in a sense, because if there is no God and no source of law, justice, goodness, and mercy, then there is no such thing as morality. Instead there is only “what benefits me here and now?”. There is no measure of morality, since it is a divine concept that only the creator can reveal.
>>18253924I completely grant to you that under-developed people will find plenty excuses in religion to remain in their state, be it pre-conventional moral development or tribal socialization. But when it comes to Christianity (and many other religions, I would suppose), your objections go way too far in "can never actually truly be moral":>preconventional stage of moral developmentJesus Christ is one of the best examples of post-conventional stages of development ever put on paper, such as in "he who is without a sin". >punishment / rewardThis is explicitly classified as the baseline mental framework. Believers are supposed to progress from this to agape (love) motivation as they become more holy.>true morality >reciprocal nature of society... all of us benefit fromThis would still be driven by a desire for reward, arguably beneath existential. Religions offer much more profoundly moral approaches, such as self-transcendence.
>>18254298Admitting you wouldn't see a reason to be moral if Hell/Heaven didn't exist only proves my point.
>>18254173>It is the disbeliever who is entirely concerned with reward/punishment. They only care about what they think they can get away with.stop projecting retard
>>18254394>Admitting you wouldn't see a reason to be moral if Hell/Heaven didn't exist only proves my point.That’s not what was said. The argument is that there is no such thing as morality without God. >if there is no God and no source of law, justice, goodness, and mercy, then there is no such thing as morality.How can you create a morality? Can you say “this is just” without knowing anything? Rather, your morality will simply be a list of likes and dislikes based upon your personal preference.
>>18253924>reciprocalTrue morality is about doing the right thing and not worrying about reciprocation. Otherwise you get into the reddit karma cycle or jew merchant mentality, which are both amoral.
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