>>18272312
They don't really have that much of a cultural footprint outside of place names
Their descendants are corn farmers in the middle of nowhere and are basically ignored by media.

>>18272312
Because most of them helped the Spaniards subjugate other natives and as a consequence they spread their culture and language alongside them.

>>18272312
First of all, the Aztec Triple Alliance (and more broadly speaking, the Nahua peoples as a whole) were extremely influential in the region before the conquest. Pretty much all of Mesoamerica, i.e, literally everything in the map you just posted, not just the orange spots, was under their political and cultural sway. Nahuatl was a presrigious lingua franca, the dynasties of the Maya and other non-nahua populations proudly claimed Nahua descent and mimicked their art and architecture, Nahua city-states sprinkled the region all over, from the Pacific Coast of Western Mexico all the way to Nicaragua, and once the Aztec Empire was established, they were universally feared and respected hegemons. So, your impression that they weren't big or old is quite misguided. The Aztec Empire was the undisputed sole superpower of an entire cradle of civilization, even beyond their "borders" shown in your map, and the wider culture they were a part of had been held at high esteem for centuries

Secondly, because the Conquest of the Aztec Empire was an objectively extremely important event that paved the way for large scale european settlement in the New World and showed them the wealth the new continent could bring. And after their fall, the skeleton of their empire was the framework upon which the Spanish Empire built New Spain, and by consequence, the modern nation states that took its place, which is why, for example, the modern country of Mexico still shares a capital with the Aztec Empire and named itself after the Mexica tribe and why Guatemala is named after a Nahuatl word.

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Recency bias and extra information mostly. They were the last mesoamerican superpower, and their culture just before their fall(and the fall itself) was extensively documented.

To be fair though they genuinely were fascinating people with a huge population, very advanced agriculture, great architectural works, cool art, an interesting culture and mythology, and imo the greatest city that ever existed. It's also really interesting to both scholars and pop culture how such an advanced society could be so insanely cruel and have such an alien philosophy on life to the modern one.

>>18273238
>imo the greatest city that ever existed
what makes you say that? Just asking as someone who knows nothing about Mesoamerica

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>>18273497
Ok, the shit I'm gonna tell you here is absolutely insane, in fact when I talk to people who don't have a computer in front of them to verify these things I massively undersell it because it sounds too amazing to be true, but what I'm about to tell you is 100% verified historical fact by mountains of primary source, records, artifacts, and excavations.

The Aztec capital city of Tenochtitlan(population 150-400,000) was constructed in the middle of a massive lake that is now almost completely drained. The central temple district and the great market of Tlatelolco(one of the largest markets on earth, with 20-60,000 people visiting EACH DAY) were basically the only parts built on preexisting land, the rest of the city(remember, this is 150-400,000 people living in big heavy stone houses and apartment complexes) was constructed almost entirely from artificial, manmade islands. According to legend, the Nahuatl people spent ages looking for a holy sign on where to settle their holy city(this sign was an eagle on a cactus, the source of the modern mexican symbol) and they found it on a tiny swampy island in the middle of the lake, and that's why they built it there. It was basically a much larger Venice. It was able to feed itself entirely from chinampas, floating farms that were MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN MODERN FARMS, but on top of that long distance aztec trade and extreme food diversity meant that they had some of the best diets on the planet at that time.
1/?

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>>18273547
The natives noted that the lake was fed from rivers in the south, so they built a 12-16km long dike where the lake was thin, splitting it. The dike kept the water level slightly higher on the city side, and occasionally opened its massive gates to pump the city side's water out, then let the rivers refill it, and pumped it out again, over and over, until the city side's water was MUCH cleaner than the normal brackish lake water and was perfect for agriculture. Despite what is commonly believed, the Aztec's didn't drink the lake water because there was obviously a giant megacity on top of it producing garbage. They pumped it in with two large aqueducts, running in turns so one could be cleaned while the other worked. According to Cortez "one of them is so large that ten horses can go abreast" but i'd take that with a grain of salt. Due to the spectacular water management within the city, many houses had RUNNING WATER. However, many citizens were so fucking spoiled that they preferred water from a DIFFERENT spring(this one was considered holy, that's why), and had regular shipments of BOTTLED SPRING WATER brought to them, often having scheduled deliveries right to their houses via the shitloads of canals. Additionally the city was just fucking beautiful, as noted by what little remains of it and the word of absolutely everyone who visited there, you could fill a book with just Spanish quotes saying "this is the most beautiful place on earth"
2/?

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>>18273559
Now, all of that is cool and all, but where the city really thrives is its spectacular quality of life. It was masterfully planned, district by district, neighborhood by neighborhood, even house by house. Government funded street cleaners and a general social focus on cleanliness(Aztecs even bathed twice a day and washed before and after every meal) this meant most of the city was utterly spotless. The intensive planning and the elaborate network of drawbridges meant getting around the city was a breeze, either on foot or on boats in the canal, and it was incredibly defensible too, since they could just pull up the drawbridges on their VERY long bridges to the mainland and rely on their own internal food supply. Obviously the city was incredibly beautiful too, with tons of exotic paints and gardens everywhere. Individual neighborhoods had government representatives that peasants could speak freely too, so individual neighborhoods were excellently run. There were public schools, for both nobles and peasants, teaching not only practical things like fighting and labor but also history, sports and poetry. There was a TON of affordable doctors and dentists, police that were actually effective, and according to records, very incorruptible, so crime rates were very low (plus obviously its the Aztecs they had some rough fucking punishments for crime). Sports were a huge part of life, they had huge public stadiums as well as neighborhood ball courts and even had travelling teams like a proto NFL.

3/?

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>>18273576
I don't really know where to begin or end with how amazing this city was so apologies if it seems like I'm just rambling because I am.

There was a lot of societal pressure on nobles to be generous, if you weren't regularly giving huge gifts to your peasants you were a piece of shit, and may lose your status. Being the holy center of the empire and home of the emperor, Tenochtitlan had A LOT of fucking gifts. There was constant festivals, and in these festivals the nobles were expected to bury their citizens in free food and liquor. There were regular sacrifices(which, if you were a Mexican was a very good thing, these were volunteers, criminals, and enemy warriors), the poor were taken care of, housing for the average person was pretty damn good for the time period and there was A LOT of palaces meaning lots of wealth. The emperor's palace even had a ZOO AND AQUARIUM, as well as extensive gardens, and these were full of a VERY wide range of species, many from completely different environments, showing a spectacular talent for gardening and animal husbandry. We're still not sure how the fuck they pulled off the aquarium, it even had saltwater fish in it.
There was also a surprising amount of social mobility. Peasants couldn't become nobles, but through military success or wealth they could obtain a lot of respect and gain real voices in their society. We're not sure how literate they were overall, but despite their admittedly simple writing system, we know they ordered A SHITLOAD of paper, so at least some of them were doing A LOT of writing and paperwork.

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>>18273601
There's still plenty more to say about this city but really I could talk about it all day and I've already posted a ton.

Being Aztecs, all of these things obviously came at a tremendous moral cost. They obtained much of this luxury from from offensive wars and extortion, as well as tremendous amount of slaves...but this was basically the norm in Mesoamerica, it wouldn't have really bothered the people living there much. Their neighbors did hate them yes, but this was because they were the top dogs, conquering and sacrificing better than anyone else had before(also the Mexica actually immigrated in from the north and the northerners were traditionally viewed very negatively).
Being a random Mexica commoner living in Tenochtitlan, your life would be one of extreme peace and comfort. You'd always feel safe from crime and foreign invasion, you'd feel like the nobility and rich guys above you actually give a shit about you, you'd have access to a secure, steady, highly diverse, and delicious food supply, you'd be surrounded by beautiful art and architecture, you'd have wealth and access to one of the largest and most diverse markets on the planet, possible you'd have your own slaves or servants, you'd have education, vacation days, regular parties, sports with your boys, gifts, healthcare, all in the 1400s/early 1500s. It was a REALLY fucking cozy life.

>>18273621
Oh, and finally, if this thread gets any traction, you're probably going to see a bunch of angry replies simply saying "This is lies! This is bullshit! Imagine believing this!" without being able to provide any evidence to back it up. Mesoamerica discussion generates a lot of seething here from schizophrenic racists who like to jerk off and larp as conquistadors, and mentioning that the Natives were actually pretty advanced and developed before they arrived and things got worse afterwards ruins their fantasies. Its fucking impossible to discuss the american civilizations on this board.

So don't trust anything anyone here says about the pre columbian americas. Don't even trust me. Do your own research and let scholarly sources speak for themselves.

>>18273547
*eagle killing a snake on a cactus

>>18272312
OP when you were making this thread did you know that you were going to activate an autistic Aztec sleeper agent?

>>18273632
Yea it's amazing, the juxtaposition between that and the bloodthirstiness of their priests is part of what makes it so captivating.
It's also unbelievable that squatemalens managed to invent all that shit all by themselves. Literallly unbelievable

>>18273847
Tenochtitlan was 500 miles away from the modern Guatemala border

>>18273847
Are you the guy from that other thread who claimed they were shipwrecked Indonesians

Could they achieve all of that because of the ANE racial component?

>>18273576
>There was a TON of affordable doctors and dentists, police that were actually effective, and according to records, very incorruptible, so crime rates were very low (plus obviously its the Aztecs they had some rough fucking punishments for crime).
I think you're buying into some sort of strange nationalist propaganda. What are your primary sources for these claims specifically?

>>18275676
Bernardino de Sahagún describes a very large network of doctors with a lot of specialization, like generalists, bone experts, surgeons, dentists, midwives, herb experts, physical therapists, etc. Sahagun also discusses the officials who are in charge of running the police forces, regular night patrols, specialized market inspectors to prevent fraud, and district specific judges, Bernal Diaz said no one dared steal in the city, and Alonso de Zorita discusses the legal system a bit as well, and says their legal system is comparable or better than Spain's.

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Well, OP, I disagree with the premise a fair bit

>Weren't that big
Compared to cross-continental Eurasian Empires like the Romans or Mongols, no, but as a regional power it's fairly sizable: As seen in pic related, it's about the size of a fairly large European country, and by Mesoamerican standards, it was the largest political network the region had ever seen, unless you go with mostly disregarded, highball interpretations of Teotihuacan and Tula's influence and control.

>That Old
True, but why does that matter? Spain is even younger and people romanticize the Spanish Empire. Germany is even younger then that etc.

>died immediately upon contact with the real world
The Americas is part of the real world

>>18273679
Believe it or not the other anon who did a big infodump isn't me

>>18272421
Who is "most of them" and what do you mean by "helped the Spaniards subjugate other natives"

If you mean during the Cortes expedition, then no. Depending on how you define and count things maybe a half dozen to a few dozen states allied with Cortes, not even all of which were inside the Aztec Empire, compared to the total ~500 states within the empire and the extra hundred few states in Mesoamerica not within it. Only a small minority of states allied with Cortes.

Refer also to pastebin.com/h18M28BR and arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/640670498/#640679139 and desuarchive.org/his/thread/16781148/#16781964 and desuarchive.org/k/thread/64434397/#64469714 + the other posts I link to within that /k/ post and the two posts of mine directly preceding that one for info on why the idea that Cortes got those alliances due to the Mexica of the Aztec capital being hated is also a misconception

1/?

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OP here, I fucked up and posted the wrong image.

Same questions apply.

>>18275685
Quote them.

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>>18275689
They made an updated version of truesize called truesize.net that has historical dates, though it mostly goes by century so no 1520 Aztecs.
I made a thread about the site but nobody gave a shit

>>18275694
Im not going to go into extensive detail here and instead im just gonna tell you to read the Florentine codex(but be aware of its biases), but heres a few.
>"“There are physicians who cure with herbs; others who set bones; others who lance and make incisions.”"
>“The bone-setter understands the joints, the sinews; he knows how to put bones back into place.”
>“There are those who pull teeth, who scrape them, who treat afflictions of the mouth.”
>“The midwife is a physician who knows the ways of childbirth.”
Sahagun in Florentine Codex book X
>“There are those who know the diseases of the eyes, and those who know the diseases of the mouth.”
Florentine Codex Book XI
>“There were judges and officers who kept such good order that no one dared steal in the market.”
Bernal Diaz, many other conquistador memoirs noted the same
>"“There were judges who judged cases; they heard lawsuits, they examined testimony, they passed sentence.”"
>“The judges were very careful; they did not accept bribes, nor did they show favor, nor did they judge falsely.”
>“There were officials whose duty it was to seize criminals, to bind them, and to bring them before the judges.”
>"“Those who walked at night went about quietly, for there were patrols who guarded the city.”
>“If a noble committed a crime, he was punished more severely, because he had been taught better.”
>“People lived in fear of the law; no one dared steal or behave wickedly.”
Florentine Codex Book VIII

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>>18275689
>>18272421
cont:

If you mean in the decades following the Cortes expedition as the Spanish and local allied/subject armies conquered and pacified other parts of Mesoamerica, then I don't know, maybe? Just because a state nominally recognized Spanish rule or didn't directly antagonize it, didn't mean they actually provided troops or even paid taxes: A lot of places weren't paying taxes for a while after Cortes even if they pledged themselves to Spain early on. I'm not really sure what proportion of states or population centers within them actively supplied troops for further Spanish campaigns or not.

>>18272744
I think "under their...sway" is too strong a statement. Influenced/swayed by to some degree, sure, but if you're talking about the distant northwest or Southeast portions of Mesoamerica then that influence would be fairly minimal, probably. Even Jalisco, Colima, and parts of Michoacan, or good amounts of the Maya areas (it's not even clear if the Mexica had diplomatic contact with say Yucatec Maya states or not IIRC), really may not have been THAT influenced by the Nahuas politically or culturally, but admittedly that isn't a topic I've looked into deeply.

I do know that even relatively far north in the Maya area you see fairly Central Mexican style murals and pottery (pic) at times, and just the other day I was shown a Highland Guatemalan pair of Maya earrings that look straight out of Central Mexico or Oaxaca, but I'm not sure you could definitively say that's "Nahua" influence rather then say Mixtec or some other groups with Mixteca-Puebla/International style art

>Nahua city-states [in the] Pacific Coast of Western Mexico

Source? If you mean the Pre-migiration Nahuas I don't think they had urbanized settlements? By Nicaragua I assume you mean the Pipil...

2/?

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>>18275689
>Believe it or not the other anon who did a big infodump isn't me
I like you Mesoanon but don't let your ego get too big, you're not the only autistic Aztec sleeper agent on this site

>>18275705
In other words you've wildly, WILDLY misstated what our actual sources say. There's nothing here about abundant, affordable doctors or low crime. Just the existence of doctors and police. Typical ridiculous nationalistic exaggeration of actual historical data. You're seeing what you want to see, not doing real history. I don't even especially care about how great this city was or wasn't, but the moment I saw the way you were speaking about it I instantly recognized what was going on.

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>>18275721
>In other words you've wildly, WILDLY misstated what our actual sources say.
In other words I've posted a bunch of short quotes like you asked and short quotes are not enough to give you a full picture of a subject that has had mountains of full books of JUST primary sources written about it. I have shared some of my sources and repeatedly encouraged everyone to read them and cross reference them with other sources to confirm or refute things I'm saying. If you actually give a shit about this subject you can do that, but clearly you do not, you're just looking to shit on a subject you know nothing about.
>There's nothing here about abundant, affordable doctors or low crime.
If you dont see how the existence of tons of specialization in medicine implies an abundance of people working in the field, or a noted abundance of courts and incorruptible police implies law and order(ok im being nice here, you're just completely dishonest, theres a quote in there explicitly stating people felt safe at night due to law enforcement and one saying that no one dared steal or behave wickedly) then you're just fucking stupid or suffering from extreme cognitive dissonance.
>You're seeing what you want to see, not doing real history
pic related
>I saw the way you were speaking about it I instantly recognized what was going on.
You saw someone having actual passion and interest and you immediately started seething because you're a bitter loser who only feels emotion when you're shitting on things. You're a very simple and common person and everyone can see right through you.

>>18275764
>If you dont see how the existence of tons of specialization in medicine implies
Ah and here it is. Filling in the gaps with what you wish were true. The sources you presented list very basic medical practices: broken bones, midwives, teeth-pullers. This is something basic you find even in ancient Greece. But you turn it into gushing praise about how they must have had a superlative medical system. This is how a Nationalist always takes history.

>or a noted abundance of courts
Have you looked at available records to see if there was an unusually large number of courts for the city? Is it different from other cities and their number of courts per capita? No. You've found vague quotes and filled in the gaps with what you want to believe. No serious work or hard data. You're a fanboy, not a historian. Every culture has them.

>and incorruptible police implies law and order
What looks to have been their murder rate? Their theft rate? How often were officials bribed? How does it compare to other similar places?

You've done none of the work to actually figure that out. Instead, you take a single source, the Florentine Codex, look at the rosy things it has to say, and then use those to build a Nationalist fantasy.

>You saw someone having actual passion and interest
I.E. a Nationalist fanboy, which the internet is awash with.

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>>18275786
>The sources you presented list very basic medical practices
Once again brainlet these are a couple of short quotes, this is what fits into a low effort 4chan post, not the full picture
>This is something basic you find even in ancient Greece
Which was globally famous for its medicine
>Have you looked at available records to see if there was an unusually large number of courts for the city? Is it different from other cities and their number of courts per capita?
I have looked at the reports of first hand witnesses saying that it had an unusually large number of courts yes. Neighborhood level courts were not the global norm at that time, I'm sorry for overestimating your intelligence and expecting you to know that.
>What looks to have been their murder rate? Their theft rate? How often were officials bribed? How does it compare to other similar places?
These kinds of precise statistics almost never existed before the modern era, but all of the reports i've seen from that era said it had low crime relative to contemporary places, particularly places the Spaniards visited like Spain and Italy
>you take a single source, the Florentine Codex
I have quoted multiple sources, i've just quoted Florentine Codex the most because it is simpler to focus on one thing rather than open and search through a bunch of different sources at once. You see, I am a human being, not a robot.

Once again you can do actual research as I've encouraged you to do or you can remain ignorant. Considering you can't even keep track of the information presented in a few 4chan posts I can pretty confidently guess at which of those options you'll choose.

>>18275786
oh and btw I have zero Mexican blood and I don't live in a latin american country, I don't give a shit about these Nationalist liar strawmen you're making up

>>18272312
Because they were so insanely evil.

>>18275802
So far your case entirely built from extrapolating your fantasies from a small amount of scanty evidence from a single source.

>>18275805
Nationalism doesn't have to be about your nation. Tons of people adopt it for what are, to them, exotic places.

Let's look at the reality. You said "Being a random Mexica commoner living in Tenochtitlan, your life would be one of extreme peace and comfort...you'd feel like the nobility and rich guys above you actually give a shit about you".

Meanwhile https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-worldhistory/chapter/the-aztec-people/ talks about how among the Aztecs "Nobles owned all land, and commoners got access to farmland and other fields through a variety of arrangements, from rental through sharecropping to serf-like labor and slavery. These payments from commoners to nobles supported both the lavish lifestyles of the high nobility...", https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/motecuhzoma-i-c-1397-1468 talks about "The worst crisis of Motecuhzoma's reign was the famine of 1450–1454, which emptied the imperial granaries and forced people to flee to the humid lowlands" and https://www.jstor.org/stable/124359 talking about cycles of famine: "Periods of rapid sustained growth are highly correlated with periods of balanced nutrition, while periods of population stability appear to be associated with a variety of nutritional deficiencies: to shortages in raw protein and essential amino acids in particular."

I read at https://www.jstor.org/stable/41726816 about how ""The common people not be allowed to wear cotton, under pain of death...only the highest ranking nobles could wear sandals...the common people were allowed only garments of maguey, yucca, or palm fibers...the lower classes wore only undecorated apparel made of coarse bast fibers, while the nobility wore the only status fiber - cotton."

A typical place of the ancient world. Cyclic famine, domineering upper-classes.

>>18275711
>Just accidentally lost 3 whole posts worth of additional replies

fuck

I might not get to retyping it all out before the thread 404s, as is I have so much shit to reply to in a /k/ thread

>>18275713
I try to not let it, hence not using a tripcode, but me not using one also means I have to assume sometimes if people are talking about me or not

>>18275024
well i'm not arguing that claim specifically but in all things considered what's more likely, that they got some technology over the years from rando shipwrecked sailors or that sub 80 iq jungle niggers figured it all by themselves.
It's all just too damn impressive compared to the people themselves

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>>18275711
Have you read pic related? New Spain was organized around the existing indio infrastructure and many of Spain's native allies fought alongside spaniards all across the world.

>>18275894
Well that's probably because all the "squatemalans" you've met are uneducated urban diaspora likely descendants of dirt poor subsistence farmers and not the educated ruling class of a civilization you fucking retard, that's like looking at trailer park white trash in the middle of Arkansas and then declaring that the White House must have been built by aliens because surely there's no way such an unimpressive people came up with anything on their own

>>18275895
Not yet, it's on my list though

>>18275697
I give a shit, anon

>>18272312
on top of that christians burned all their books and tore down their homes to build their own, its a miracle

>So far your case entirely built from extrapolating your fantasies from a small amount of scanty evidence from a single source.
I have quoted multiple sources and repeatedly told you that there is more information in the full sources and a few small quotes will not suffice. Why do you think you can understand the intricate details of an entire empire based on the written equivalent of an instagram reel?
>>18275837
>"Nobles owned all land, and commoners got access to farmland and other fields through a variety of arrangements, from rental through sharecropping to serf-like labor and slavery. These payments from commoners to nobles supported both the lavish lifestyles of the high nobility..."
So like 95% of the world?
>talks about "The worst crisis of Motecuhzoma's reign was the famine of 1450–1454, which emptied the imperial granaries and forced people to flee to the humid lowlands"
Damn one notable lethal famine in the entire reign of their empire, the rest of the 1400s world certainly was doing better than that right?
>"Periods of rapid sustained growth are highly correlated with periods of balanced nutrition, while periods of population stability appear to be associated with a variety of nutritional deficiencies: to shortages in raw protein and essential amino acids in particular."
So in other words, population increased more during periods of wealth and surplus? No way! How strange!
>"The common people not be allowed to wear cotton, under pain of death...only the highest ranking nobles could wear sandals...the common people were allowed only garments of maguey, yucca, or palm fibers...the lower classes wore only undecorated apparel made of coarse bast fibers, while the nobility wore the only status fiber - cotton."
Wow, class specific clothing? Totally unique to the Aztecs!

Your complaints very obviously stem from you just not remotely understanding what like was like 500 years ago.

>>18275894
>what's more likely, that they got some technology over the years from rando shipwrecked sailors or that sub 80 iq jungle niggers figured it all by themselves.
Definitely the second one. You seriously underestimate how fucking big the pacific ocean is dude, especially since we can trace their technology back to like 2000BC so it'd have to have happened around then.

>>18276484
thanks bro

>>18272312
>why do we have more knowledge of the aztecs and adjacent peoples that the spanish had extensive interactions with, as opposed to some remote place that died out before the americas could be fully explored by europeans?
Gee I don't fucking know Billy.

>>18272312
Nahuatl culture in general did, not just aztecs. Nahuatl was basically all of mesoamerica except the mayan area.

>>18278655
Aztecs = Nahua
Literally every Nahua was from Aztlan.

>that random speck 400 miles away
What went on there?

>>18279987
Bunch of conquered zoque peoples and some maya territory, they were vassalized. The territory inbetween was under the sphere of influence but not controlled

no cultural footprint? have you been to home depot wey

>>18272744
>>18273238
>>18273547
>they were extremely influential in this tiny part of the world
shut the fuck up we are wondering why Chinese people learn about them not why the sole inhabitants of a small jungle region were the most influential people in that small jungle region.

>>18280004
They are still influential today if you think about it mr. skinhead. The drugs that come to the US by them are the ones weakening it and eventually giving China and edge. So yes, the Chinese have a good reason to learn about them.

>>18279987
It was a cacao-producing region they conquered so they could have all the cacao they wanted

>>18280004
Because, again, their conquest was an extremely important event in world history that paved the way for European dominance over the rest of the world for the next 500 years. It made the Spanish Empire extremely wealthy, inspired further colonization of the Americas, and shaped the culture and structure of what would later become Mexico and the central american countries.

Going with your exanple, because of the conquest of the Aztec Empire, the chinese would end up having a Spanish colony right next to their doorstep in the form of the Phillipines and briefly Taiwan and their society getting flooded with Spanish silver mined from Mexico and Peru and crops from the Colombian exchange. It's also why OP's strange assumption that them "not being that old" would somehow be something that diminishes their impact is so stupid. It's the exact opposite. The Aztecs had much more visible impact on world history than some archaeological culture from 2000 years ago. Their state being younger than whatever old world state you have in mind doesn't change that in the slightest.
>why the sole inhabitants of a small jungle region were the most influential people in that small jungle region.
They were not "the sole imhabitanrs" of the region in any way and the overwhelming majority of it wasn't a jungle.

>>18275693
kek

>>18275894
they're 80iq now because they're heavily inbred after smallpox wiped out so many of them

>>18277063
>>18280334
retarded snownigger animal, your race is going extinct and will be genocided by niggers, arabs and mexicans

>>18280346
?

>>18280006
>The drugs that come to the US by them
Lmfao you literally pay for it you fat retarded nigger. Don't compare this to the opium wars as a way of making yourself look like less of a pathetic drug addict.

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Look, basically I’m just not gonna respect mesoamerican "history". I know… UGH I know… I’m sorry! It’s just that I’m not respecting it is all. Hahahaha.

>>18277036
>based on the written equivalent of an instagram reel?
You mean actual scholars, as opposed to a Nationalistic fanboy?

>I have quoted multiple sources
You haven't. Your only actual quotes have come from the Florentine Codex. And a quote of Bernal Diaz with no further information like where it is to be found.

>So like 95% of the world?
Yes. Exactly. You described it outright as the best place on planet Earth with a lifestyle bordering on a paradise.

Strip away the Nationalism and it's just a city typical of the Bronze or Iron Age. Great achievements and much to be proud of, to be sure, but far far behind your gushing praise.

>Damn one notable lethal famine in the entire reign of their empire
Now you're being dishonest. We have nearly no history recorded for their empire. There's no Aztec Plutarch. Actual studies of the people show cyclic famine, as is typical for the ancient world, and as we looked at.

>So in other words, population increased more during periods of wealth and surplus? No way! How strange!
In the paradise you described with "floating farms that were MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN MODERN FARMS, but on top of that long distance aztec trade and extreme food diversity meant that they had some of the best diets on the planet at that time" there should not be cyclic famine. You outright described a place where famine would be even less likely than in the modern world with their allegedly superior agriculture.

>Wow, class specific clothing?
Does that make you "feel like the nobility and rich guys above you actually give a shit about you" and like you're awash in luxuries when you can't even wear cotton clothes because that's reserved for your superiors?

>Totally unique to the Aztecs!
That's my point. You outright described this as a paradise. It wasn't. It was just a typical city. Great in its own way, but it's just another Babylon, Tyre, or Baghdad.

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>>18280698
>You mean actual scholars, as opposed to a Nationalistic fanboy?
What are you even talking about anymore?
>And a quote of Bernal Diaz with no further information like where it is to be found.
The True History of the Conquest of New Spain, I also mentioned opinions of Alonso de Zorita, from Brief and Summary Relation of the Lords of New Spain. You gonna read these now? No? I didn't think so. You dont care about the truth you're just a naysayer.
>best place on planet Earth with a lifestyle bordering on a paradise.
I never said paradise, but yes, best city on earth because earth at that time sucked, they were impressively far ahead of the norm in terms of quality of life and government.
>Actual studies of the people show cyclic famine, as is typical for the ancient world, and as we looked at.
Significantly less so than most of the world.
>there should not be cyclic famine
You really just dont understand averages or statistics huh?
>You outright described a place where famine would be even less likely than in the modern world with their allegedly superior agriculture.
No, theres a million other factors relating to fighting modern famines like modern distribution, pesticides, pest control, and long term food storage
>can't even wear cotton clothes because that's reserved for your superiors?
Cotton was reserved for superiors because it was a luxury item that most people couldnt afford anyway, thats where traditions like that come from
>Great in its own way, but it's just another Babylon, Tyre, or Baghdad.
A bunch of renowned wonders of the world?

You're just completely ignorant about pre modern life and you're acting like the city was a shithole because it had universal issues, even though those universal issues were experienced far less there than everywhere else. This is like some douche in the year 2200 shitting on modern Vienna because it has some littering and drunken fights and doesnt have teleportation or full body vr experiences.

>>18280523
Im not a druggo you retarded simple brained monkey incapable of critical thought you actual fucking terminally online nigger you fucking subnormal piece of subhuman
The US is getting weakened by drugs traded by the descendants of those aztecs who still keep up alive their practices. That is what I said

>>18280530
What a way to cope with the fact your CURRENT history (right now) is about getting buck broken

>>18280712
>What are you even talking about anymore?
Scholarly works such as https://www.jstor.org/stable/124359, as opposed to your wild exaggerations.

>The True History of the Conquest of New Spain
Where specifically?

>I also mentioned opinions of Alonso de Zorita, from Brief and Summary Relation of the Lords of New Spain
So quote them. Or do you not do so because it will reveal this is more of you seeing what you want to see from vague allusions you can find for any ancient city?

>I never said paradise
I have never in my life seen someone gush such praise for a place. Ever.

>best city on earth because earth at that time sucked, they were impressively far ahead of the norm
Oh see how we're walking it all back now? Like Nationalist fanboy liars always do. First come the wild exaggerations and then "n-no I actually meant..." when someone wisely doesn't take them at their word.

>Significantly less so than most of the world.
Can you show me a single study that actually backs that up? None of the sources I found said a word about this and the study certainly didn't indicate that it was true.

>You really just dont understand averages or statistics
Lol. Give me your statistics from the Aztec empire. You have none and are making excuses up as you go along.

Your reply had better show some hard data with real stats for this point.

>No, theres a million other factors
And tell me anon. Where did you get that "floating farms that were MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN MODERN FARMS" bit?

> it was a luxury item that most people couldnt afford anyway
Wait wait wait. In your city with no poverty most people couldn't afford cotton? Where "one of the largest markets on earth" was, people couldn't buy these? Where "many citizens were so fucking spoiled"?

Almost as if you exaggerated beyond all recognition

>A bunch of renowned wonders of the world?
Sure sure - every empire has them in one way or another. Especially at their capital. It's nothing really very special.

>>18275697
useful, thanks

>>18273238
This

>>18272312
>had pyramids and hieroglyphs
>practiced human sacrifice
what else do you need? they were cool

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>>18272312
>they weren't that big,
They were that big, if you apply the same logic we use for the Roman Empire on them.
>that old,
They occupied the historical country of the Mexica. The Triple Alliance was similar to Charlemagne, who claimed to be a Roman. The main civilization was the Mexica, not the Triple Alliance itself, they were essentially outsider who migrated from north.
Read Camilla Townsend's book about the Aztecs or any other reputable history book on the subject.
>and died immediately upon contact with the real world
The Mexica survived under Spanish suzerainty as a casta. The Spanish allowed local lords to govern their lands within their system. However, because of religious issues and intermarriage with Spaniards, this system soon disintegrated. The caciques were the lower nobles of the Indian republic while the King of Spain replaced the Triple Alliance, not the Mexica.
Over time, the Spanish introduced "Indian Town Councils" (cabildos). While indigenous lords often filled these seats, the system shifted from hereditary rule to a more Spanish-style municipal government.
By the late 17th century, the distinction between a "noble" Indian and a "commoner" Indian had largely vanished in the eyes of the Spanish law; this marked end of Mexica as a political entity.
So, no, they did not disappear overnight. Instead, they became impossible to eradicate, were tolerated, and slowly disappeared due to integration and the gradual loss of power.

I see there are multiple anons into mesoamerica ITT and I hereby ask for book recommendations
I also accept book recommendations on the incas if you have any

>>18272312
Larping mestizos

>>18281773
see
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/18263005/#18267371

>>18281648
Those aren't even in the top 5 coolest things about them

they were really cool. simple as

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>>18281773
It’s already been mentioned but I enjoyed this one quite a bit when I was doing a little research project on the conquest. I was looking at how the visual art changed and intermingled with Spanish art (which itself was undergoing huge changes during the late renaissance in Europe). I know this book has little to do with visual art.

Though Díaz del Castillo justifies his and the other Spaniards’ actions through the lens of a just war, he expresses some regret over the destruction of Tenochtitlán, writing, "When I beheld the scenes around me, I thought within myself, this was the garden of the world. All of the wonders I beheld that day, nothing now remains. All is overthrown and lost."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_verdadera_de_la_conquista_de_la_Nueva_Espa%C3%B1a

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>>18281773
>>18284675
Here’s what I read for that little project.

Anawalt, Patricia. "Costume Analysis and the Provenience of the Borgia Group Codices."
American Antiquity 46.4 (1981): 837-52.
<http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/280110>.

Baird, Ellen T., and Sahagun. "Sahagun's Codex Florentino: The Enigmatic A."
Ethnohistory 34.3 (1987): 288-306. <http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/482236>.

Carrasco, Davíd. "Cosmic Jaws: We Eat the Gods and the Gods Eat Us." Journal of the
American Academy of Religion 63.3, Thematic Issue on "Religion and Food" (1995): 429-63. <http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/1465087>.

Cortés, Hernando. Five Letters from Mexico. Collectors Reprints, Inc. Princeton, NJ:
1998.

Díaz del Castillo, Bernal. The True History of the Conquest of Mexico. University of
Microfilms, Inc. Ann Arbor: 1966.

Gruzinski, Serge. Painting the Conquest. Flammarion. Paris: 1992.

Haly, Richard. "Bare Bones: Rethinking Mesoamerican Divinity." History of Religions
31.3 (1992): 269-304. <http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/1062864>.

Restall, Matthew. Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest. Oxford University Press. New
York: 2003.

Sahagún, Fra Bernardino De. Florentine Codex. General Hisotry of the Things of New
Spain: Book 12, The Conquest of Mexico. Translated by Arthur J. O. Anderson and Charles E. Dibble. The School of American Research and The University of Utah. Monographs of The School of American Research. Santa Fe, New Mexico: 1975.

Sisson, Edward B. "Recent Work on the Borgia Group Codices." Current anthropology
24.5 (1983): 653-6. <http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/2743170>.

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>>18284689
Brotherston, Gordon. Painted Books From Mexico. London. British Musuem Press:
1995.

Jansen Maarten and Gabina Aurora Pérez Jiménez. Codex Bodley: A Painted Chronicle
of the Mixtec Highlands, Mexico. The Bodleian Library. Oxford: 2005.

Leon- Portilla, Miguel, ed. The Broken Spears. The Aztec Account of the Conquest of
Mexico. Boston: Beacon Press, 1962.

Paddock, John. "Covert Content in Codices Borgia and Nuttall." Ethos 13.4 (1985): 358-
80. <http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/640150>.

Nuttall, Zelia, ed. The Codex Nuttall. A Picture Manuscript from Ancient Mexico. Dover
Publication, Inc. New York: 1975.

Urunuela, Gabriela, et al. "Biconical God Figurines from Cholula and the Codex Borgia."
Latin American Antiquity 8.1 (1997): 63-70.
<http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/971593>.

Sisson, Edward B. "Recent Work on the Borgia Group Codices." Current anthropology
24.5 (1983): 653-6. <http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/2743170>.


Troike, Nancy P. "Fundamental Changes in the Interpretations of the Mixtec Codices."
American Antiquity 43.4 (1978): 553-68. <http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.gvsu.edu/stable/279489>.

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>>18284694

>>18284694
>>18284689
What was your project?

>>18281773
When Montezuma Met Cortes by Restall

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>>18285437
Oh I see
>>18284675
> I was looking at how the visual art changed and intermingled with Spanish art (which itself was undergoing huge changes during the late renaissance in Europe).

Any chance you could email me at saintseiyasource@gmail.com with some of your project?

Me and my friends started this image about the same subject, and i'd love to exchange resources and further and maybe have you help out with us finishing it