>Initiatory and elite, not universal>Operates through secrecy, lies, and riddles (as opposed to openly)>Amoral, as opposed to juridical>Seeks knowledge at a cost; does not rule with effortless authority>Psychopomp, as opposed to agricultural/rain/fertility god>Ecstatic and shamanic, not rational>God of outlaws and marginal figures, not the norm>Creates instability, rather than stability Isn’t he roundly unsuited to lead?
Because he made himself such.
>>18280604I dunno ask the skalds who made up the shit. I'm sure they profited somehow by making Odin that way.
>>18280604The Norse gods were probably legendary ancestral heroes who later got deified. Woden was like the Norse equivalent of Odysseus, not Zeus
>>18280604I’m interested to know this as well. Following almost every other PEI religion, it should be Tyr or Tiwaz who more obviously corresponds to Jupiter/Dyaus Pater/Zeus. Not sure Odins equivalent. It’s like he came out of the mists of time somewhere around the 5th century.
>>18280604>a demon does demonic thingsshocker
>>18280625Jesus didn't rise and he's never coming back btw
>>18280618>The Norse gods were probably legendary ancestral heroes who later got deified. Woden was like the Norse equivalent of Odysseus, not ZeusSeems pretty unlikely. This seems like euhemerization. It’s tempting for later peoples to turn gods into men, but I think historically gods have been forces personified. Also, I’d like sources.
>>18280625Valuable insight, Juan Hernandez-Gomez
When are you going to stop? >NOOO THAT GLOWS 2 MORE WEEKS
>>18280618Snorri Sturluson is that you?
Odin has two dimensions as a deity. He is a powerful war-god who (sometimes violently) enforces order and morality. There is also the occultic dimension of his character. My reading of the character of Odin was that he started off as the former (supreme elite war god who ruled the cosmos with an iron fist from his tower in the sky) and lapsed into being a more cynical, jaded, and esoteric figure later in his “life.” Odin is of course heavily associated with aging and old age. Greybeard is a famous alias he uses in some poems.I think the pattern of his life mirrors the cyclical nature of time. The cosmos is constructed from chaos in the beginning and is grand. The gods live in paradise, feast on crops that grow and harvest themselves, and they cover the earth in palaces and shrines erected out of gold. The universe degenerates over time and eventually succumbs to sickness, much like a great king. Then the cosmos will be reborn again in glory and experience the same cycle again. Odin likewise will day during Ragnarok and then rise again in the new world. I think he makes a lot of sense as a kingly figure. He’s past his prime RIGHT NOW, but that was not the case in the past, and it will not be the case in the future.
>>18280623Tyr has no connections to royalty and is an extremely minor character in every possible source that we have. He is the son of a Jotunn warlord, which would make Tyr himself a Jotunn and not a god, and his mother was a war concubine. His only notable character trait seems to be that he lost a hand. The etymology of his name just traces back to the PIE term for a god which I also don’t think is in and of itself significant
>>18280604Scholars generally agree that Odin supplanted Týr as the chief god sometime before the first written Norse myths were recorded. This shift likely happened during or before the Migration Period, when Germanic societies were under intense social and military pressure. In that context, a more complex, war‑linked, and challenging god like Odin may have become more significant to warrior elites than an older sky/war figure.
>>18281008>Scholars generally agree that Odin supplanted Týr as the chief god sometime before the first written Norse myths were recordedno, actually, I don't think there is any agreement to this effect, precisely because, as you yourself mention, there is literally no evidence for it.
>>18280604Odin is Wodan. Who was originally said to be a wild sage that has strange knowledge and cures sickness. If I was being very liberal on the etymology, I'd say the name Wodan may come from the word Buddha via the standard Buddhist ascetic monk traversing the old world to preach about Buddhism. And Germanics might just be old remnants of scythian infused culture who may have taken a liken to the sage of Saka.
>>18281064Further more, the word Buddha is "awakened" and the word "Wodan" has etymological origins to "wod" which fury/madness/inspired, basically alluding to transformation of the mind. The lore of the Odin is so that he had attained secret knowledge and with the world tree as his home. Buddha awakened under a tree, with it came his famous wisdom/knowledge/omniscience. Both of them gained spiritual knowledge under the tree that transformed their minds. Coincidentally, the Romans knew Wodan and Mercury to be same, thus the third day of the week is Wednesday (after Wodan). In Indian astronomy, Mercury is Budha.
>>18281008I think it happened during the BC era since the 1st century AD Roman historian Tacitus claimed in his work Germania that the chief god of the Germanic peoples was “Mercury,” who was equated with Odin via Interpretatio romana. Odin was equated with Mercury due to both being associated with extensive travel, secret knowledge, magic, trickery, and a role in the guiding of souls.
>>18280728> He is a powerful war-godOdin is a war god, certainly, but my gripe here is that 1) I don’t think war is what makes him *unique* from other gods. A culture can have several war gods (the Greeks had Athena and Ares; the Germans had several “war” gods), and war gods can have different personalities (Mars was a god of agriculture and the common man, much like Thor). Odin is a god of “victory by any means,” usually trickery. War is not his personality; war is one of his *metiers*. > I think he makes a lot of sense as a kingly figure.To me… him being a king is a position he occupies. It’s not part of his personality, and it doesn’t entail that he rule a certain way. He just… has sovereignty. That’s a position the Germans (or a faction of the Germans) gave him.
>>18281203>I don’t think war is what makes him *unique* from other gods.He is the father of war. He breeds warlike spirit amongst kings, and he was the one who instigated the first war ever in the world with the Jotunn who sought to destroy his creation with witchcraft. He is associated with ravens and wolves explicitly because those animals would eat war dead, and his valkyrie servants followed battles and famous heroes who instigated battles.He's much more a war god than any other norse god and I think the trouble you have with associating him as such is because Odin's depictions are split between him being a fierce war god and him disguising himself as a doddering old man with a big hat, which people naturally view as not being a very warlike image.
>>18281230> he was the one who instigated the first war ever in the world with the Jotunn who sought to destroy his creation with witchcraft.The problem with myths is that myths developed to justify roles and explain rituals, not the other way around. Odin creating the first war is a product of him being “the father of war”, not the other way around. But why is he the father of war? Well, we have to look at his other roles, and this complicates things. What does him being someone who travels between the land of the living and the dead have to do with him leading armies. Does he lead armies? Kings would pray to Odin, but the rank and file would pray to Thor. Why is that? Why is he associated with ravens—who are scavengers—and wolves—which are wild—but not… boars, or eagles, like many other gods of rule and sovereignty? And why does he have an additional role as a god of secret knowledge and magic, when Zeus or Jupiter don’t have these roles? It’s worth looking at. I guess my thing is, there’s nothing here to make me believe he *began* as a war god, or as a god of sovereignty. People just take it for granted because, by the era we were writing things down, that’s how he came to be known, and he grew more and more into this role across the age of migrations. But I think the growth of his role shows that he could easily have been a more marginal figure earlier on.
>>18280731> Tyr has no connections to royaltyIf we’re to believe that Odin is a descendant of the “daylight, sky father”, we have to ask why he has no connections with basically daylight or sky. In fact, quite the opposite. He is a god of neither daylight or open skies, but of shadow, wind, and subterranean aspects. Did he hit himself really hard on the head one day, and change his personality to the complete opposite direction?> is an extremely minor character in every possible source that we haveIn Tacitus, he is likened to Mars who, in the Roman pantheon, was no minor god at all. He was prominent enough to get his own day of the week.Sure, he’s minor by the time of… a thousand years later, 1,300 years later (whenever the Eddas were written down)… but that really isn’t saying much. You’re not making a good argument here. > He is the son of a Jotunn warlord, which would make Tyr himself a Jotunn and not a godOdin is half Jotunn, and Thor’s mother is a Jotunn. So, combined, that would make Thor 3/4ths Jotunn. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. > His only notable character trait seems to be that he lost a handThis is just ridiculous. Týr was the god of the Thing, or the assembly, much like Zeus was the god of the Agora. You’re purposely minimizing his role, because you can’t wrap your thin brain cells around the idea that hierarchy can shift. Feel bad.
>>18281256>Odin is half Jotunn, and Thor’s mother is a JotunnTribal affiliation passes patrilineally. It doesn't matter that Thor has a Jotunn mother. His father was an As, and so he too is an As.>In Tacitus, he is likened to Mars whoTacitus doesn't liken anybody to anybody. Tacitus just says Mars, and you're inferring that he means Tyr because at some point after the collapse of the roman empire, germanic-speaking peoples began calling the day of the week latins named for mars "Tyr's Day." >we have to ask why he has no connections with basically daylight or skynone of the norse gods have strong associations with natural phenomena beyond Thor's name being etymologically related to the word Thunder, and Loki's association with earthquakes.>>18281246> but the rank and file would pray to Thor. Why is that?Thor portects humans. That's why voluspa stanza 56 calls him "warder of earth."> And why does he have an additional role as a god of secret knowledge and magic, when Zeus or Jupiter don’t have these roles? It’s worth looking at.He uses the magic for war. Voluspa stanza 23 calls the sorcery that Odin uses during the first war in the world "Vigsspa," which means something along the lines of prophetic war magic, to "trample the valleys" where his enemies are presumably hiding.>What does him being someone who travels between the land of the living and the dead have to do with him leading armies.This is why Odin is king. Standing between the realms of life and death makes you extremely powerful. That's why Sigurthr buys into the superstition about not giving your name to dying men in Fafnismal, because Sigurthr is concerned that the dying-but-not-yet-dead Fafnir will use his increased magical potency to place a curse on him. This is also why Odin sacrifices himself in Runatal. Also also, this is why Odin resurrects dead witches for important prophecies in Voluspa and Vegtamskvitha.Power and sovereignty I would say go hand-in-hand.
>daily thread on this for the last weekWhy?
>>18280604>>18280608Odin is modelled around an inventor of scripture that is seeking meaning and wisdom in a godless, cyclical world.In other words, Odin is modelled exactly like the biblical prophets because they share an origin in the history and people of Alvheim/Elohim.
>not universalHe created the universe and the race of man hence why he is called the all father. That is quite literally the definition of universal. Your jew god is not universal as he is restricted to jews. Odin being restricted to germanics is not any different. And he wasnt restricted to the elites, just more tied to their fates. And imagine thinking god is rational with the world around you. It makes much more sense that the supreme deity is some mad psychopomp obsessed with forbidden knowledge
>>18281300Don’t look at me. I’ve only made two.
>>18281324It feels like you’re a Christian who decided there had to be some continuity with European religion, and this is the solution you’ve settled on.
>>18281414> He created the universe and the race of man hence why he is called the all father.Christians say that God loves everyone. I don’t think Odin even pretends to love or treat everyone equally. He’s a very selfish god, and I don’t condemn that. > That is quite literally the definition of universal.That is the definition of *omnipotent*, which would make sense if we consider him as a force. However, as to whom he’s concerned with, that’s much narrower than “the race of man”. > Your jew god is not universal as he is restricted to jews. Odin being restricted to germanics is not any different.… so, is Odin universal, or not? Because now you’re contradicting yourself. Also, I’m not a Christian. > And imagine thinking god is rational with the world around you. It makes much more sense that the supreme deity is some mad psychopomp obsessed with forbidden knowledgeSo you’re… what. Some pagan larper, then?
>>18281300This discussion is better than 95% of threads in this shit board
>>18280604Because he wasn't like that.Germanic mythology was reconstructed by Christians when nobody practiced it anymore. One of the ways they did that was referencing Roman sources. The Romans, using Interpretatio graeca, wrote down that the Germanics' main god was Mercury, but they probably didn't know shit. The Romans had better things to do than study the religion of barbarians, they probably just noticed some surface level similarity in iconography and concluded that Wotan=Mercury. But the Christians reconstructing the mythology read this and constructed Odin to be like Mercury, which is where the Psychopomp and trickster traits come from.
>>18281448picrel plus the fact that galatians are migrants from the southern rhine delta is more continuity than you deserve to be presented with
>>18280610the only intelligent reply here
>>18281453>Christians say that God loves everyone. I don’t think Odin even pretends to love or treat everyone equally. He’s a very selfish god, and I don’t condemn that.Odin does love everyone, that is why he fathered humans with Astgeir, loving creation.He created all of the individual classes of men, too.He doesn’t treat people “equally” because Odin sets extremely high expectations for men (to become gods), however, the long and arduous road to divinity was laid out and opened to all men by him sacrificing himself. Similar to the wide and narrow gates Jesus talked about.
>>18281630>Germanic mythology was reconstructed by Christians when nobody practiced it anymore.So would you also care to explain why authentic pagan poetry recorded in the poetic edda emphasizes Odin as a seeker of esoteric knowledge and also the divine ruler?
>>18281453>narrower than the race of manOnly white people are technically men so not really
>>18281630Retarded and pseud ridden take. How do you explain dies mercurius becoming wednesday or wodens day in nearly every other germanic language? This happened long before the eddas were written
>>18281808Centuries (at least) of unbroken poetic tradition doesn't count chud.
>>18281702The jews were not indo-europeans. The god of the bible is not real and not related to the indo european gods
>>18281414This can not be true, as Gaia is the creator of all Gods and Men and is the All-Mother (see the Theogony and Greek sources).
>>18282150That's mammy shit
