How would history have changed if Germany didn't unite under Prussia but some other way e.g. a successful 1848/49 revolution? Would Prussianism and militarism have emerged as the dominant forces anyway?
>>18291011Neither Prussianism or Militarism are valid categoricals. The correct term is "Germanic Heroism".
>>18291011Germania has never truly been unified
>>18291011No, the dominant culture would become liberal and non-expansive, in the immediate aftermath at least. Prussian militarism would be dampened. It's still possible stupid wars happen of course, and still possible some sort of fascist movement comes up eventually.
>>18291011>>18291039In what way is liberalism not militaristic, in what way were the iterations of the French Republic any less militant then the German Empire. This liberal slop history is retarded, the reality is Europe’s great powers barring Britain had huge land armies with cultures that accompanied traditions of conscription. All the while each of them had expansionist ambitions. A Liberal German Empire would have been even more been more bellicose than Prussia, as its revolutionary state would have put it directly at odds with the system that kept the general European Peace unlike Prussia that co-opted it once it satisfied its goals.
>>18291011That depends entirely on how and in which shape the country is united. One of the underlying failures of the German Revolution of 1848 was that the revolutionaries themselves were strongly divided. So we could have a conservative union of princes or a strongly liberal nation state inspired by the USA. >AustriaWasn't interested in a united german state and was content with its loose role as the presidium of the German Confederation. And by the 19th century Austrias focus lay on the Balkans anyways.>Erfurt Union (pic rel, the yellow trerritories)This was a failed attempt by Prussia to steer the revolution into a conservative and more controlable direction. In May of 1849 it proposed this plan to the other german states and while many small ones agreed, the big ones like Austria, Saxony, Hannover, Bavaria, Württemberg, etc. declined. And while this union de facto had governmental institutions (like a dedicated parliament) outside preassure and interal loss of interest led to its dessolvement in November of 1850 and both Austria and Prussia dedicated themselves to the restauration of the German Confederation.>Would Prussianism and militarism have emerged as the dominant forces anyway?I had to look up what Prussianism is and holy kek what an amount of pearl clutching. Prussia wasn't more militaristic then its contemporaries.Anyways, depending on how Germany is unified the other european monarchies might feel threatened or see chances for their own expansion.France was looking to expand its territory into the Rhine - already in 1840 french demands for this led to the Rhine Crisis. Russia will be nervous about the rebellious poles of a revolutionary Germany comes into existence, as some of the german revolutionaries showed solidarity towards Poland. Austria (depending on how it is integrated or excluded) will also show some gripes. So war is definately on the horizon either way.
>>18291219Can you please elaborate on the French ambitions over Rhine? This is the first time I hear about it. What were the causes? Did it have to do with the Franch anexation of the left bank during the French revolutionary wars? Or did this date to before that?
>>18291011My favorite scenario would be a tripple alliance between a revolutionary Germany, Hungary and Poland to stave off the inevitable attacks by France, Russia (maybe even Austria - that depends on how it is integrated or excluded from Germany afterall). But I recognise that such a scenario is highly unlikely as while there were many german revolutionaries who emphasised with the polish independance desires, most weren't interested in loosing territory to an emerging polish state. >>18291061>as its revolutionary state would have put it directly at odds with the system that kept the general European Peace unlike Prussia that co-opted it once it satisfied its goals.There wasn't that much piece in Europe to begin with. Granted most conflicts were surpressions of interal rebels and revolutionaries (international interventions by the Holy Alliance were instrumental in the surpression of those) but it wasn't a peaceful time. You are of course right with identifiying that most european states maintained large standing armies - and those armies were tools to enforce their political goals.
>>18291230The notion of the "natural borders" of France was developed during the French Revolution but France had a westward expansion since the 16th century - the Peace of Westphalia of 1648 confirmed the annexation of former territories of the HRE that France had occupied since the middle of the 16th century. Regardless, the Rhine Crisis of 1840 was triggered by France failing to enforce its goals during the Orient Crisis of 1840. Here France supported the uprising of Egypt under Muhammad Ali against the Ottoman Empire. The other european states intervened in favor of the Ottomans and Egypt remained a (autonomous) part of the Ottoman Empire. But France politically isolated itself by supporting Egypt and the government faced internal criticism after this failure. To alleviate this pressure and to restore the national honor, the french government made demands towards the western lands of the Rhine and some french social associations even demanded the revision of the Congress of Vienna. Reservits were activated and war bonds were issued - but it was all a bluff by the french government to appear strong towards its own subjects. This bluff was called by the German Confederation, the signs of french aggression furthered german nationalism and the german states were ready to ward off France by strengthening its armies and border fortresses. In the end nothing came of it as the warhawks in the french governemnt resigned and the new french government was far more sociable. But the damage was done as both french and german nationalists received chauvinistic fuel for generations to come.
>>18291230Oh and the interal political conflicts France faced shouldn't be underestimated. The Julymonarchy (1830 to 1848) was headedy by an orleanist King and faced preassure from both bourbonists, bonapartists and revolutionary republicans. Politically France was really a powder keg during this time.
>>18291241>France had a westward expansion>former territories of the HREthat would be eastwardThe Rhine would be a natural border, but Alsace has been going back and forth for hundreds of years now and in the north you suddenly have Belgium.
>>18291303>that would be eastwardYeah I mixed this up.>The Rhine would be a natural borderNo. Even when West and East Francia were established, the Rhine was never the border.
>>18291387It was the border between the Germanic Suebi and the Gauls and when West Francia and East Francia were first established, it was the border of Middle Francia and East Francia.
>>18291415The Germani cisrhenani (Latin cis-rhenanus "on this side of the Rhine", referring to the Roman or western side), or "Left bank Germani",[1] were a group of Germanic peoples who lived west of the Lower Rhine at the time of the Gallic Wars in the mid-1st century BC.>Tribes who Caesar named as being among the Germani cisrhenani included the Eburones, the Condrusi, the Caeraesi, the Segni and the Paemani.Ultimately it doesn't matter though as people and their polities aren't bound by rivers and mountains. And Francia Media had to die so that the other two could live.
>>18291011>How would history have changed if Germany didn't unite under Prussia but some other way e.g. a successful 1848/49 revolution?The Second French Empire and Alsace–Lorraine would have lasted longer.>Would Prussianism and militarism have emerged as the dominant forces anyway?If Prussia had not been incorporated into this liberal/socialist unified German state and annexed it after a war, they would have been more radicalized and Nazism would have emerged sooner.
>>18291011These were all feudal family pissing contest and disingenuous alliances. Some families more successful at exploiting its people than others and "nationalism" a ruse. Its still happening
>>18291303>The Rhine would be a natural borderNon
>>18291467
>>18291011What if Austria had won the Austro-Prussian war?
