Just so you know:>BUT HE WOULDN'T DO THAT THOUGH!Is not an answer to my question. My question is, what would you do if he DID do that. Answer carefully. It doesn't matter that God stopped him, either. What's important is that Abraham was fully prepared to kill his son because it was a command from God and he almost carried it out. Would you be like Abraham?
>>18292117Yes.
>>18292121At least you are honest.
>>18292117Probably not, my faith is not that great.Though as far as the story goes - evaluated as a story - it doesn't make much sense for it to go any other way than it did. God and his relationship with Abraham are both fully established at that point afaik. If Abraham disobeyed the morale would just have been "people doubt". We knew that already.
I read it as G-d flexing on the other gods as his servant Abraham would sacrifice his son to him but G-d is nice so he doesn't need it.
>>18292117If i knew it was god Yes
Isaac was a symbol of Christ. The text implies Abraham thought God would resurrect him since his line was through Isaac who hadn't had any children yet.
>>18292117i think higher authority people in ancient times just made up random shit to make people question their faith, but instead people just ate it all up.
>I would burn an orphange, kill all the babies, cut their foreskins, make foreskins paté and spread it every morning on my bread if God of Israel told me to. God of Israel is all loving and is objective moral.
>>18292117Abraham was asked to sacrifice his child to god to which he immediately obeyed, which is the virtue which, This was one of the main tests that made him the greatest. The metaphysics of it is entirely correct,So yes I will.
>>18293182>burn an orphange, kill all the babies, cut their foreskins, make foreskins paté and spread it every morning on my breadbut God never said to do that, this is a product of your own grotesque deranged imagination
>>18293198>Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, INFANT and SUCKLING, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”1 Samuel 15:3
>>18293198>Now therefore, kill every male among THE LITTLE ONES, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.Numbers 31 17:18
>>18293217it meant the women warriors and infant animals and suckling animals, ie. suckling pigs
>>18293217>>18293231God decides who lives and who dies.Simple.
>>18293231Numbers 31 17:17 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.He meant to kill only those who had served Balaam, who would be soldiers not children. He spared the young girls as they were often slaves not the camp prostitutes.
>>18293276Wrong, the killing of the non-virgin women and the taking of the virgin ones is vengeance against Midian for making the Israelites worship Baal and take their daughters as wives:While Israel lived in Shittim, the people began to whore with the daughters of Moab. These invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. So Israel yoked himself to Baal of Peor. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. And YHWH said to Moses:>Take all the chiefs of the people and hang them in the sun before YHWH, that the fierce anger of YHWH may turn away from Israel.And Moses said to the judges of Israel:>Each of you kill those of his men who have yoked themselves to Baal of Peor.And behold, one of the people of Israel came and brought a Midianite woman to his family, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of the whole congregation of the people of Israel, while they were weeping in the entrance of the tent of meeting. When Phinehas the son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose and left the congregation and took a spear in his hand and went after the man of Israel into the chamber and pierced both of them, the man of Israel and the woman through her belly. Thus the plague on the people of Israel was stopped. Nevertheless, those who died by the plague were twenty-four thousand.Numbers 25:1-9
>>18293248>>18293254>>18293301So God of Israel does IN FACT order killing of babies and raping of little girls.>>18293198Heres where he orders baby pathé.>"And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straits with which their enemies and they that seek their lives shall straiten them.’Jeremiah 19:9.To wrap this up:Yes I will make pathé out the foreskins of babies and slup that up through a straw while im raping LITTLE girls, If God of Israel told me. Its the right thing to do because God is love and you should always obey him.
>>18293357>So God of Israel does IN FACT order killing of babies and raping of little girls.Yes, what about it? Fuckers had it coming.>Jeremiah 19:9This is God commanding the ultimate punishment upon the Israelites after literal centuries of disobedience, idolatry, bloodshed, violence, greed and depravity.
>>18293364So..will you make ground up those babies of those sinful goyim and rape their little girls while you slash and hang their parents if God of Israel told you?
>>18293373Sure anon, I'll do whatever fucking retarded over the top scenario you can think of if le God says so.
>>18293375Based. I would do the same.Lets eat some babies, rape some girls, hang some hateful goyim who hate god and his love.
If God ordered me to kill I would have killed without ceasing, but such is not His will.
>>18292117A true God wouldn't ask such a thing. The old testament is just bronze age middle Eastern mythology
>>18293560>A true God wouldn't ask such a thing.Why? Who made you judge about the gods to decide what a true or a false God should or should not do?
>>18293560True, that's why we should oppose Yahweh
Definitely, but also I'd hopefully make sure I'm not having a psychotic episode.
>>18293711Could God not genuinely communicate Himself to you through a psychotic episode? What is the difference between psychosis and a genuine revelation which is hidden from all but the subject?
>>18292117No. I'd think I'd developed schizophrenia.
>>18293717Whenever God talks to someone in the Bible, he confirms his legitimacy by providing signs and wonders that people will recognize as the work of God.
>>18292117There's more than one entity that fits the conventional definition of "god". And some of them are evil. So no, I wouldn't do that.
>>18292117I would at least ask why. There's probably a good reason for it, like he was about to troon out or something.
>Just so you know:>>BUT HE WOULDN'T DO THAT THOUGH!>Is not an answer to my question.Wrong comeback. The right comeback is: he biblically did.
>>18292117To Reap, reasonable cost of god's transparency. I know humans are bound by for this challenge.
>>18292117>>18292123What is actually wrong with saying yes?>what if youre just being tricked and youre mentally illok well then my child would have likely died anyway because mentally ill people are bad parents.>its le crazyIf God, whom walked with you - showed you divine acts, gave you a command, why wouldnt you follow it?
>>18292117For some reason, you remind me of guys at my work who feel like a crime is being committed against them when I stop their policy violations and insist on doing things by the book. You're quite a rodent, in other words!
>>18293721Do you think that maybe it's possible that Abraham had schizophrenia?
>>18294298>What is actually wrong with saying yes?Because killing your children is wrong. It doesn't stop being murder because God told you to do it. You wouldn't get it. The fact that this has to be explained to you is horrifying and tells the world all it needs to know about your disgusting cult.
>>18292117>The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away>Ashes to ashes>Dust to dustt. James Hetfield
>>18294310>It doesn't stop being murder because God told you to do it.Yes it does, God is Lord over life and death, He rules when people live and when they die. He can command anybody to be killed, if He sees it fit.
>>18294307No.
>>18294317Slave mentality completely lacking in any dignity or self respect. The religions descended from the Bible are the ultimate crime against humanity.
>>18294310>Because killing your children is wrong.Why? Because you said so? What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
>>18294325>Why? Because you said so?If me saying so isn't a reason then how is Yahweh saying so a reason? You talk about objective morality but if your morality is just "whatever the strongest being says" then your morality is completely arbitrary not objective.
>>18294327>If me saying so isn't a reason then how is Yahweh saying so a reason?I can simply flip this question back to you:If YHWH saying so isn't a reason then how is you saying so a reason?
>>18294327>You talk about objective morality-If you believe morality is subjective, then you have no reason to make moral claims beyond just being your opinion, even if it's a strongly held opinion, an opinion you'd be willing to kill and die for, it's still just an opinion, and it can be dismissed as such.
>>18294331>If you believe morality is subjective, then you have no reason to make moral claims beyond just being your opinion, even if it's a strongly held opinion, an opinion you'd be willing to kill and die for, it's still just an opinion, and it can be dismissed as such.cool, then I can also dismiss your and Yahweh's opinion. I never claimed morality was objective by the way. That's you. It isn't, it is completely subjective.
>>18294342>I never claimed morality was objective by the way.Then you have no right to make moral claims that anybody should take seriously.Into the trash you go.
>>18294327>You talk about objective morality but if your morality is just "whatever the strongest being says" then your morality is completely arbitrary not objective.Thanks for demonstrating that you don't know what the word "objective" means. I'm so glad I don't have rodent-brain (unlike you!). :D
>>18294346Define objective morality. It seems to me that you adopt Yahweh's morality because he is the strongest and therefore everything he says must be true because it just is ok.
>>18294352>It seems to me that you adopt Yahweh's morality because he is the strongest and therefore everything he says must be true because it just is ok.That's what you ultimately believe though. All morality is subjective, therefore the moral rule that can prevails can only be the one that is imposed through force. You have can the most perfect, most righteous, most noble moral standards, but they mean nothing if you don't have the power to enforce them.
>>18294352>Uhm sir please defineNo. You have a dictionary, you have Google. What you lack, and what I have in abundance, is brainpower to apply definitions. You should consider ending your own worthless life.
>>18293357no, he orders the death of enemy combatants and animals, you are just misinterpreting bible quotes as usual
>>18294370Show us how Yahweh's morality is the objective morality.
>>18294357>That's what you ultimately believe though. All morality is subjectiveYes, that is what I believe. That is not what you believe though, you believe Yahweh is the arbiter of "objective" morality. Now show why he is.
>>18294387>Yes, that is what I believe.Great, then shut the fuck up and stop bitching about God enforcing His "subjective" morality on to everyone.
>>18294382>no, he orders the death of enemy combatants and animalsand children. that's what the text says. At least own that your God commanded people to kill children. Other christians here are more honest and "based" than you, coward.
>>18294389Cool, that is not what I asked about though. I asked what evidence there was that Yahweh's morality is objectively correct. Can you demonstrate why Yahweh's morality is the objective morality please?
>>18294310>killing your children is wrongaccording to who? You?we can easily think of a scenario in which killing your child would be a moral good in a secular sense, imagine your son goes insane, kills his family, then starts killing your family, you'd kill him in vengeance.Imagine if your daughter slept with a negro, you'd kill her for the sake of her own honor.Imagine you shot a deer and your followers were dying on some beach, a death unworthy of heroes, and the only way to resolve this is to sacrifice your daughter.Perfectly understandable.Now consider something even more extreme, the Lord of the Universe commands you to sacrifice your son.>stop being murdermurder? Its not murder to make a sacrifice.>you wouldnt get itWhy no? I have looked at it from a secular perspective, example 1 and 2.A religious perspective: example 3 and 4.Where's the flaw in my reasoning, I have appealed to both secular and to religious ethics.Why are secular and religious ethics wrong?>horrifying disgusting cultI am not a liberal so that doesnt apply to me.Furthermore, we take the story of Abram and Isaac as a whole.Isaac wasnt actually killed, so what crime did Abram commit? Where was the murder? There wasnt even a sacrifice?
>>18294392Well it's very simple logic really: morality is either objective or subjective, if's subjective, then we're all fucked and we have to do whatever God says because He's infiintely more powerful and can do whatever He wants, if it is objective, then God is righteous and we must to everything He says.Either way, objective or subjective, the result is the same: God wins.
>>18294324Abrahamic religions are very Nietzschean, their will to power is quite strong.
>>18294399Why did Nietzsche chimp out at them so much, then?
>>18294398Maybe "God" is lying about being undefeatably powerful.
>>18294387>That is not what you believe though, you believe Yahweh is the arbiter of "objective" morality. Now show why he is.>>18294392>Cool, that is not what I asked about though. I asked what evidence there was that Yahweh's morality is objectively correct. Can you demonstrate why Yahweh's morality is the objective morality please?>you must prove to me your morality is correctuh no, I dont need to prove to you my flavor is better than yours.Firstly, Abrahamic morality has survived, so obviously it passes the evolutionary crucible.Secondly, this is a totally irrelevant question that is about ontology, not whether what Abram did is moral or not.Are you a nigger? How would you feel if you didnt eat breakfast this morning?In short, how would you feel, morally speaking, if you literally believed God commanded you to do something you didnt like?Are you able to think beyond your own personal experience or are you some kind of NPC?
>>18294401Why do chimps beat each other up? They are all chimps at the end of the day, why cant they just get along??
>>18294402You go ahead and test that hypothesis, tell us if you get some interesting results.
>>18294403>Are you a nigger? How would you feel if you didnt eat breakfast this morning?I am not a nigger, so I would feel hungry.Why would a wholly good God who is also omnipotent create a world that has evil in it? Free will doesn't necessitate it, he could have used his omnipotence to create a world where we could exercise free will but not do anything completely heinous. That is the Christcuck version of the nigger breakfast question.
>>18294407>he could have used his omnipotence to create a world where we could exercise free will but not do anything completely heinousThen it would not be free will, retard.
>>18294407He did create a world without evil, Vanity and Deception brought evil into the world through the form of a woman.Very wise if you ask me.
>>18294412>Vanity and Deception brought evil into the world through the form of a woman.You seem to not know what God being described as all knowing (omniscient) implies. From before he created the world, he already knew everything that would happen to it, including the fall, which means it was his design, which effectively means that he did it.
>>18294409>Then it would not be free will, retard.Who defines the rules of how reality works? Someone other than God?
>>18294418>From before he created the world, he already knew everything that would happen to it, including the fallAnd the Redemption of mankind. So everything turned out well in the end.
>>18294423why didn't he just create a world without any evil in it in the first place though, if he is "benevolent"?>idk bro god works in mysterious ways or something
>>18294422If you want the world to not make sense, be my guest.
>>18294427>not answering my questionThis problem arises from claiming that your God is both omnipotent and benevolent. If you would just drop one of those traits there would no longer be any logic issue.
>>18294425>why didn't he just create a world without any evil in it in the first place though, if he is "benevolent"?Because creating a world in which good comes out of evil is better.
>>18294428>>not answering my questionI did answer your question, do you or not want God to abide by the laws of logic?
>>18294431How?>>18294432>do you or not want God to abide by the laws of logic?God doesn't "abide" by anything. He is the only one who sets rules, and others abide by them. Thank you for once again demonstrating that you have ever actually thought deeply about what a supreme being would really be.
>>18294418>knowledge = causalityprove it.Also>God created Free Will knowing Evil would result from itand?Neither of these are problems.>>18294428>hes not benevolentaccording to who?you dont know what benevolence is, youre not an omniscient being.
>>18294447>How?Look around you, look at history, look at the future. You're seeing God's plan for salvation happening in real time.>God doesn't "abide" by anything.Then He's under no obligation to follow logic, and therefore your objections are null and void.Congratulations, you turned God into a being of chaos.
>>18294453>Then He's under no obligation to follow logicCorrect. So why did you ask me if I wanted God to abide by logic?
>>18294453>Look around you, look at history, look at the future.wow it's all fucking horrible. I don't think this is what a wholly good god would create. Whole lot of genocide and child rape going on too, seems like kind of a weird thing for a benevolent god to make possible in his creation
>>18294458>Correct.Then stop complaining, retard.>>18294460>wow it's all fucking horrible.No it isn't, there's plenty of good. Stop being a blackpilled cuck and learn to love live.
>>18294461>No it isn't, there's plenty of good.There IS plenty of good. But if God is *all* good, i.e. benevolent, why wouldn't he choose to create a world that is only good, like he allegedly is? I actually think you might be too low IQ for this conversation.
>>18294460God didn’t create a world where this was possible.
>>18294466>But if God is *all* good, i.e. benevolent, why wouldn't he choose to create a world that is only good, like he allegedly is?Again, because creating good out of evil is better than everything just being "good". There can be no light without darkness, anon, even Eastern religions understand that.
>>18294471>Again, because creating good out of evil is better than everything just being "good"How?>There can be no light without darkness, anonThere could be if God wanted there to be.
>>18294466God did create a world that was only good. Your question contains the false assumption that the world was always like this, when it was made like this by Adam’s sin.
>>18294474>How?Live and see the wonders of the Lord.
>>18294484Ah so you can't answer. I mean I knew that already.
>>18294478God created Adam too, knowing he would sin. So actually by creating Adam got brought evil into the world. If A causes B and B causes C then ultimately A causes C. You would be able to see this logic if we were talking about literally anything else but its tripping your cult programming
>>18294664>got brought evil into the world*God
>>18292117Threadly reminder that the abrahamic covenant is literally male gentile mutilation including slaves>Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Gensis 17:9
>>18294664>So actually by creating Adam got brought evil into the world. If A causes B and B causes C then ultimately A causes C. Ultimately, not proximately. All causes are not the same; it is true that God did not create any evil thing or make a world of sin, and although all things which occur in time follow God’s creative act it does not follow that we can say God tangled up your christmas lights.>its tripping your cult programmingCope
>>18294697God is in the ultimate position of power and in control of everything so if there is evil in the world it has to be because he wants it to be there. If he didn't want it to be there, it wouldn't be. This is literally just like the nigger breakfast question.
>>18294705not the anon you are responding to but the authors of Isaiah seemed to realize this when they wrote this. that a monotheistic reatoe must also create the darkness>I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.◄ Isaiah 45:7
>>18294298Because it's evil. Of god commands you to do evil then he is evil too.
>>18294705>so if there is evil in the world it has to be because he wants it to be there.Certainly, there is no doubt of that, the Lord has decreed all things whatsoever comes to pass. That isn’t relevant to the conversation we were having.
>>18294710Isaiah 45:7 is misapplied to this subject because it is referring to natural evil, not moral evil (to conflate the two is an equivocation fallacy).
>>18294324Feel free to be lullabied with your "self-respect" into the void, then.
>>18294324Your “dignity and self-respect” is really just wicked rebellion.
>>18294827Yeah I know that's what you think.
>>18292117Reminder that the stories says he OFFERED his son. Yes, that implies sacrifice, but this is after God told him his son would become many nations and be strong and powerful. He couldn't do that if he was dead, so Abraham must have known God would bring him back from the dead or stop him. And he did, and he offered the ram instead, implying God will present the offering, it's free with belief/trust in Him. It echoes the same thing with the story of Jesus. He carried the cross up the hill to be killed, and Isaac carried the wood for the alter.
>>18294846That is true but convenient.As in how many of those hints are present in the story as experienced by Abraham, and how many minor details are told via oral tradition or early writing with the end in mindHow much of it was "These are all the hints provided. Abraham could read between the lines and figure something out" Vs "When I am telling the story of Abraham as an early Jew or Christian, I know the twist of the story so I am going put an emphasis on this detail and this detail, knowing they will be important when the twist of Abraham's sacrifice is revealed"
Even as a kid I always found christianity repulsive, when my parents took me to church (catholic) the things the priest said felt so victimistic, pathetic and far away from what my idea of existence even was when I didn't have a fully developed personality. I prefer to live with the memory of the greek Gods knowing that truth is a pathless land, rather than follow a religion with a psychotic god that wants my body to suffer and die, my enemies to win and treats me like I was the dumbest, most corrupted of animals
>>18295058>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU SHALL HAVE YOUR BABIES EATEN AND RAPED AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR IGNORING MY LOVE AND NOT WORSHIPPING ISRAEL.
>>18292117Yes, he's gonna give me a huge reward if i do. Plus i can always have more kids.
