is The Table Spread in the Quran an interpretation of John 6 or the Last Supper?
>>18328738By all evidence Muhammad seems to have just kinda made it up. I think he's conflating the Last Supper, the feeding of the 5000, and Jesus "bread from heaven" into a weird mishmash. Sometimes he does genuinely seem to just make inexplicable stuff up from some sort of idiosyncratic misunderstanding, to this day no Jew or even Muslim knows what the heck he is talking about with the "Jews call Ezra the Son of God" stuff.
>>183287511) Muhammad was not a historical figure. The word is a title, an epitet, frequently used by Syriacs for Jesus; it means Praiseworthy One, it may refer to Jesus or in a broader sense, any prophet sent by God.3) “Muhammad” is mentioned no more than 4 times in the entirety of the Quran2) This Muhammad did not write the Quran, God did.
>>18328770>1) Muhammad was not a historical figure.He was. The name is no title, and there were at least two different contemporary companions with the same given name (ibn Maslamah and ibn Ja'far)> This Muhammad did not write the Quran, God did.Aye.
>>18328899>Aye.What, to you, is the single strongest piece of evidence for the Koran being divine?
>>18328905The Quran itself, as a whole. But one surah that resonates with me a lot, is one of the shortest ones.>By Time, Verily Man is in loss. Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. (Quran 103)
>>18328953So it's, what? You're staking your entire life and soul on vibes? You're no different from a Neopagan who says something like "man I just think the Norse gods are awesome, makes me feel great"
>>18328978What does it mean, for Man to be in loss? Once enough Time passes, what will become of us? Once enough Time passes, what will our achievements as a species have come to? Once enough Time passes, the last human being won't even be a memory. Once enough Time passes, there will be nothing left of any of us and all that we will have ever achieved will be as dust. This is the Truth. The nihilist can see as much. But its an incomplete Truth, for its the things we can't easily perceive, such as having Faith in the Lord, doing righteous things in His name, being patient in those pursuits and speaking the truth, that will mean anything after we're long gone. That's what I get from this surah.
>>18328899Those are made up people from made up stories (hadith), fuck off
>>18329040Yeah mate, momento mori, time devours all things, we all gotta go someday, etc. Typical stuff. Everything talks about this. It's as old as Gilgamesh - genuinely the main source of angst of the main character in one of the oldest known works of fiction. How's the Koran talking about this like everybody else ever show that God wrote it?
>>18329074Every soul will taste death
>>18329078Already said by everybody and their uncle thousands of years before Muhammad was born. Gilgamesh, Greek philosophers, Buddha, Ecclesiastes - this is an extremely common point, practically mandatory for any deep text, and the Koran says nothing unique about it. Its quite a thin and cliche presentation if anything.
>>18328899[The Praiseworthy One] is not [God The] Father of any of your men
>>18329074>>18329090Are you being obtuse, or just purposefully ignoring the last part?
>>18329126I genuinely do not see what you're getting at. Do you mean "and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy"? Is there a religion out there that *doesn't* tell you to be honest and patient?
>>18329128he’s just fedora tipping you
>>18328738>for us a festival for the first of us and the last of usProbably the Last Supper. the Didache shows a Eucharist without the Pauline theological language, ie. the body and blood of Christ.You should know the Qur'an considers, like many Biblical scholars today, the gospel accounts to be highly fictionalized. So considering the Qur'an from a mainstream Christian POV is sort of missing the point, since muslims think many of the events in the gospel accounts were contrived from scattered sayings and stories inherited among Pauline and non-Paulines.>>18328751>Jews call Ezra the Son of GodUzayr is probably another name for Metatron
>>18329345Uzayr is just the normal Arabic for Ezra. Metatron is also overall pretty obscure in Judaism, but Muhammad is adamant that Ezra is to them what Jesus is to Christians in the hadith at https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7439 - "Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son...Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?'They will reply, 'We used to worship Messiah, the son of Allah.' It will be said, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son.'".Trying to make sense of it is pointless since it seems to be just one of Muhammad's many misunderstandings, like when he accidentally conflated famous events of David (and Saul) and Goliath with Gideon and the river. Or him apparently being of the impression that Jesus and Moses were uncle and nephew. He just didn't really have a super great grasp of what other religions actually believed. I think that's a big part of why the Koran is so repetitive, basically saying the same thing over and over and over and over with minor differences (if you've read the Koran you know the pattern: Slightly odd summary of Bible story-->Allah is strong, just the strongest ever, believe me-->you get gardens if you're with him and a painful doom if not-->repeat): I don't think Muhammad really knew all that much, theologically, so just kinda gets mileage out of the wheels he's got.
>>18329417You're just portraying your interpretation as fact.
>>18329345I agree about the Didache part, it certainly presents a pre-Pauline or non-Pauline Last Supper, however I cant get past John 6 and its several mentions of food from God coming down from heaven.
>>18329417It just proves the existence of a community of jewish mystics who believed something like this existed in arabia, could very well be an interpretation of metatron, or something else entirely
>>18329417He also added Haman as being the vizier of the pharaoh and that he build something like the tower of babylon for him to reach God. He also thought that pharaoh was the name of the king during moses time and not a title but many christians and jews during that time also thought that pharaoh was a name.
>>18329438There's no real interpreting to do here. It's the normal Arabic rendering of Ezra.>>18329450It provides no evidence for such a community. Again, Muhammad routinely gets details about what Christians and Jews actually believe confused. We can see this clearly displayed with the examples given. He doubles down on this in that hadith as something all Jews, collectively, as a group, will be condemned for in the same manner as Christians are with Jesus.
>>18329852The hadiths were written centuries later and often they were just the hadith writters trying to make sense out of the quran often using stuff from christian or jewish scripture to interpret it. One of the hadith verses is the infamous bible quote of Jesus saying that he will divide families but said by Muhammad
>>18329961Are you a Sunni, a Shi'ite, or an Ahmadi?
>>18329852I will explain this once again because I can tell you are a pigheaded dogmatist in your own worldview and your perception of the views of others:1) This Muhammad figure did not write the Quran2) The hadith narratives chronicling every little thing he allegedly said or did are so transparently made up horseshit so they can be confidently disregarded 3) You are seething at Traditionalist interpretations which myself and others in this thread explicitly reject, but you keep arguing as if this is not the case>it gets stuff wrong about Christianity!!!!!!! no it doesn’t, you are just either too stupid or simply unwilling to accept these explanations that challenge your conceptions. When the Quran says dont worship Mary as a diety it is talking about shit like pic related, which the authors of the Quran obviously encountered through Byzantine and Oriental churches in the surrounding regions and by speaking to Christians who wouldnt shut the fuck up about how Mary was this that and everything.
>>18329980a gnostic quranist
>>18330359>>18330385I actually agree with you about Mary, hence that not being one of my examples. Do you have thoughts on the examples I actually have given?As for Gnostic Koran-Only Islam, that's certainly a unique religion. I would return to my earlier question: what do you consider to be the strongest evidence for it? Your response amounted to "vibes, man" and >>18329128 didn't receive a response.
>>18329980I'm not a muslim. I detest abrahamism especially islam.
>>18330415>Do you have thoughts on the examples I actually have given?No because you keep talking about hadith I dont know about or care about, you should ask such things to a Traditionalist Muslim. I am not a Muslim.>Your response amounted to "vibes, man" That wasnt me, but I will try to answer briefly and concisely. I think after centuries of Christological infighting and shitflinging, a book that claims to literally be from God addressing the matter is worthy of at least of some investigation. Again, I do not mean the religion called Islam that we all love to hate these days. I am strictly talking about the Quran and at most, the early Arabic monotheistic/anti-trinitarian theological movement prior to being codified under the Abbasids. I encourage you to read the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock - which the crusaders, who had a habit of destroying mosques, curiously did not demolish. The entire inscription is an anti-trinitarian polemic. Read it replacing “Muhammad” the proper name with its literal meaning and its context reads even more like a strictly anti-trinitarian “heresy”
>>18330500Thanks for clarifying, it can be hard to tell who exactly is who in an anonymous thread.So it sounds like what more appeals to you is the Unitarianism of it. If I could ask, what exactly are your thoughts about Jesus? Who - and what - he is?
