The Franks/Holy Romans were Byzantium's greatest and longest lasting ally throughout their history.
Why couldn't they accept their greatest and longest lasting ally as the western Roman Empire?
Karl the great should just have married irene.Fucking mysogeny robbed us of the kino franko roman unified timeline.
>>18358407They both lost North Africa province
>>18358407They did though. Pax Nikephori. It was just a dick-measuring contest anyway, they still cooperated and allied with each other.
The Franks and Byzantines were allies:-against the Goths-against the Lombards -against the Slavs-against the Arabs -against the Magyars -against the French -against the Venetians and Genoans -against the Pope (weird but it happened)
>>18358404The only thing they were allies for was killing the Sicilians and that's about it. Even Conrad and Manuel were hostile towards each other during the Second Crusade despite their shared alliance against the Normans. They were at the best of times, allies of convenience, and convenience was rare. >>18358428>They did though.They explicitly rejected any Roman title for the Franks and later Germans.
>>18358442See >>18358435
>>18358567>Against the GothsThe Franks actively helped the Goths and fought Byzantine armies in Italy.>LombardsNope. Most of the Lombard politics in Southern Italy were opposed to each other as they jostled for power over them. This was direct competition. >SlavsHardly. Most of the posturing by Louis the Pious and the German was in fact anti-Byzantine.>Arabs Once in Southern Italy>MagyarsNope. They didn't really interact at all over this.>Venetians and GenoansNo? These were completely independent struggles both powers had over them and they hardly interacted. In fact Manuel actively paid members of the Lombard league to fight against the Germans. This is another example of hostility.>The PopeNot at all. In fact the Frankish move into Italy for the Papacy directly took lands from the Byzantines and put it under Papal, or Frankish rule. It was at best ideological antagonism and literal war at worst.
>>18358697>GothsAnastasius literally sent diplomats to king Clovis' court to hand him gifts and imperial regalia in exchange for him fighting the Goths.>Lombards Maurice formally allied with queen Brunhilda of Austrasia and they invaded Northern Italy together around 600AD or late 500s or so.>Slavs Michael III convinced the East Franks to attack Bulgaria from the back in the 850s which was extremely successful and the pressure got them to make peace and convert to Christianity. They also both fought Slavs/Avars a bunch of times earlier albeit not simultaneously.>ArabsIt was a bunch of times, not once. It was also supposed to be even more extensive than what happened historically, Louis the Pious and emperor Theophilius were planning a joint invasion of Egypt after they had retaken Sicily to completely destroy the Caliphate but I think Theophilius died and Louis was ousted from power or something like that I can't recall now.>Magyars Otto I literally sent embassies to Byzantium to discuss the "Magyar problem" and request aid.>NormansForgot to mention this one, there was also a marriage and formal alliance between the two against the kingdom of Sicily in the 1100s but they both got their asses beat and gave up on it.>Venice and Genoa >The French >The Pope Frederick II and John III Vatatzes of Nicaea signed an alliance against the Latin Empire. The Nicaeans received Western knights and crossbowmen from Germany that helped them retake Constantinople. There was also an incident later where the Pope was trying to launch an invasion of the restored Byzantine empire but the Hohenstaufens completely cockblocked him and destroyed his fleet.John VI Kantakouzenos also later attempted in the 1350s to ally with the HRE emperor against the Genoans and Venetians so they could force them to pay taxes but both empires were too fucked up by that point and it went nowhere.
>>18358764>Anastasius literally sent diplomats to king Clovis' court to hand him gifts and imperial regalia in exchange for him fighting the Goths. You are misplacing Byzantine influence with already existing hostility.And it came to nothing. Clovis fought the Goths because he was invading Gaul and was already hostile with both Goths, not because of some alliance with Byzantium. >Michael III convinced the East Franks to attack Bulgaria from the back in the 850sLouis the German, nor did Carloman fight Bulgaria for the benefit of the Byzantines. They were primarily concerned with fighting in Moravia and their traditional vassals, which the Bulgarians invaded. This was not for the sake of the Byzantines or Micheal's urging, it was because the Bulgarians were invading Carolingian space.>Louis the Pious and emperor Theophilius were planning a joint invasion of Egypt after they had retaken Sicily to completely destroy the Caliphate but I think Theophilius died and Louis was ousted from power or something like that I can't recall now.This was something which was never going to happen nor could it reasonably even happen. Louis for half of his entire reign was busy with domestic affairs and with the Slavs. Theophilus despite his enhanced position was still struggling to deal with the Bulgarians and yearly wars with the Caliphate. Neither of them were in a position to make a Hail Mary expedition. You are just presenting what amounts to an alt history hypothetical as real example of alliance. >NormansThis is literally the only example of a formal alliance and aims which were collectively agreed upon and armies fought to achieve it. >Otto I literally sent embassies to Byzantium to discuss the "Magyar problem" and request aid.And nothing came of it.>ItalySo, agreements which came to nothing?Also ignoring all the times that they fought each other.
>>18359845>all the times that they fought each otherSuch as ummm uhhh that time Narses beat the Franks in Northern Italy and that brief standoff with Charlemagne?I'd say that's a rather good track record for supposed mortal enemies over a 1000 year period. Especially considered they were fighting common enemies and/or allied during most of the remaining time.Also they actually fought together in Southern Italy during Theophilus and Louis' reigns. There even was a funny story about the Byzantine commander complaining about how much of a useless barbarian rabble the Frankish army is. I legit cba to look it up right now but essentially after initial successes they agreed there would be a marriage to cement the alliance and they would first take Sicily then attack Egypt. But Theophilus died young I think and Louis got fucked by internal rebellions too so it never happened.
>>18359903>Such as ummm uhhh that time Narses beat the Franks in Northern Italy and that brief standoff with Charlemagne?As if I didn't name others? Quite literally when they had the ability to actually interact with each other in more than just diplomacy they were hostile with each other. The Frankish attempted invasion of Italy and the struggles over Southern Italy was mostly coloured by their conflicts with each other and exceptions where they did not. By the time the Carolingian Empire fell neither party could actually interact with each other in a meaningful way. >Especially considered they were fighting common enemies and/or allied during most of the remaining time.They weren't allied. Because they have common enemies does not mean they worked together or were allies with each other. At best you are left with the majority of the time being ambivalence and cultural hostility, not some state of alliance. This is like saying England and Russia were best allies from 950 to the Cold war because they weren't actively at war with each other.
>>18358764>John VI Kantakouzenos also later attemptedFuck that faggot retard
>>18359912I have shown you that they were in fact formally allied many times.
>>18360150You gave examples of literally nothing happening, hypotheticals, gifts that weren't alliances at all and a total of two examples of an actual alliance.
>>18360197>You see this doesn't ackshually count as an alliance because fuck you
>>18360197>NOT an alliance ok???
>>18360229>>18360241>aiYou may be retarded. I too can ask an ai about something and get it to say what I want it to.
>>18358764>>18360241>>18360150Based upon historical context
>>18359845>>18360197>>18360246Repeat the same cringe
>>18360246I couldn't get it to say that they were on friendly terms. It would go "yes they were allied at this one point but that still doesn't mean..." ad infinitum. Just like YOU. Your opinions are literally AI.
>>18358404>greatest and longest lasting ally throughout their historyArguably Russo-Austrian alliance
