>Practically all of the entire New Testament are 2nd century forgeries. Jesus, all of the Apostles, and even Paul most likely never existed.>Tacitus and Josephus’ mentions of Jesus are medieval forgeries. Tacitus was originally referring to a local Jewish agitator named Chrestus.>The oldest verifiable mention of Christians comes from the letters of Pliny the Elder who refers to “Christiani” as a local mystery cult worshipping the god Serapis (sometimes called Christos by his followers) who was heavily influenced by Jewish mysticism.How did Christians get away with it?
>>18359291We still believe the Holocaust happened even though the numbers don't line up and all the supposed mass graves are empty. Christians learned how to lie from the Jews and ran with it.
>>18359291I believe they were able to get away with it because its a syncretic religion that is the sum of a bunch of contemporary roman religions
The entire testimony was forges as yshua the jew originally said:"IT'S was ZE jEWS all along", before dying on a cross.Important note: Your mother saying you shouldn't masturbate because god is watching (unknowingly inducing schizophrenia) is not the same as 12 wealthy men (jews aren't real men due to low testosterone-high estrogen count) doing shrooms with no women in sight.Why blacks love bible so much ? It's not their religion ? It's not african lmao
>>18359419>Why blacks love bible so muchStockholm syndrome
>>18359291>refers to “Christiani” as a local mystery cult worshipping the god Serapis (sometimes called Christos by his followers)There is no menton of Serapis in Pliny
>>18359419>Why blacks love bible so much ? It's not their religion ?Atheism is not a third-worlder thing. So they're faced with 2 options, each of them cucked: the religion of their former slavers, or the religion of the tribes who sold them to slavery.
OP is full of shit and makes things up all the time, I blame single motherhood
>>18359556If I was a BBC thug nigga I would follow Nation of Islam, Black Hebrew Israelites, Hotepism or something like that. I would also use my BBC as a weapon of mass destruction to impregnate white wimmenz and leave them for cuck azz white boys to raise.
>>18359293fucking nazi
>>18359580Kike
>>18359580>>18359293>As duped Aryan sheep begin to understand the "Holocaust" they also begin to better understand Christianity. Both have similar origins. Both have identical objectives.>[...] on the road to Damascus — brooding about Rome, relishing the bloody image of the disciple he had stoned to death; sweaty, sore footed, thinking of the blasphemous ravings of the Nazarene — Saul had an incredible, earthshaking IDEA. A light-bulb inspiration. He, Saul — a Roman citizen — suddenly realized how he could destroy Rome! Saul trembled uncontrollably with fear and joy. He would simply promulgate the insane teachings of Jesus! What better way to destroy a Nation — any Nation — than to undermine her hubris; her gods, ethics, mores, history, her gene-pool — in short, Saul would DESTROY ROMAN CULTURE. Then, as night follows day, with her foundations rotted, the Roman Empire would FALL. Saul decided to begin the HOAX by inventing a miraculous encounter on the road to Damascus with the reincarnated Jesus the Christ!>Toward that end — no different than Hollywood script-writers today — Saul created a bogus a la Spielberg docu-drama stuffed with lies, miracles, guilt trips, betrayal, virgin birth, eternal damnation, salvation — a scenario appealing to the superstitious, vulnerable, ignorant yearning sheep — he named his hoax "Christianity.">[...] The Big Lie technique, employed by Paul to create the CHRISTIAN RELIGION, also was used to create the HOLOCAUST RELIGION ... CHRISTIANITY AND THE HOLOCAUST are HOAXES .>"Christianity" destroyed Roman Civilization. The "Holocaust" Religion is destroying Western Civilization. The Aryan gene-pool dies, "unwept, unhonored and unsung."https://archive.org/details/ChristianityAndTheHolocaust/
>>18359599Based. Fuck kikes.
>>18359599Rome fell because they destroyed Jerusalem, nobody who hurts Jerusalem could ever go unpunished, even if God was the one who sent them to destroy her he did it in his anger, so once his anger against the inhabitants of Jerusalem passes away he always turns his anger towards those who hurt her.The Catholic Church is doomed to destruction.
>>18359618>bagel noisesSorry, I'm too goy to care about any of that.
>>18359291When your cult is in charge or the Roman Empire and then the European Empires, it's easy to get away with things.
>>18359552>There is no menton of Serapis in PlinyPliny refers to a mystery cult. And from other sources, we can tell that it was worshipping Serapis. Anon just needed to be more clear, but he was right about what he said.
>>18359542I live in stockholm lol
>>18359618Rome fell because they were Christian. The Romans believed in Pax Deorum (“Peace of the Gods”) in which it was necessary to worship the gods for the survival of the Roman state, otherwise the gods would punish them. Looking back, they were right to believe this.Rome prospered under emperors who targeted Christians like Hadrian, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, etc. But under emperors who were tolerant of if not Christians themselves like Theodosius, Philip the Arab, Commodus, etc, Rome stagnated and declined.The crisis of the third century was punishment from the gods for allowing the rise of Christianity. The vast majority of emperors during this time were tolerant of Christian and the few moments of prosperity happened under the few emperors who targeted Christians.The Antoine plague was punishment for tolerating Christians, the emperor who ruled during the plague was tolerant of Christians.The fall of Rome was punishment from the gods for fully abandoning the traditional religion and making Christianity the state religion. The gods as punishment allowed Rome to fall to foreign invaders.
>>18360566All your gods bow down to my God.
>>18360566Based. Huns, Mongols and Black Death too.>Had you not committed great sins, God would not have sent me to punish you.Luckily, we got back on the right track after that thanks to the Renaissance and schismed all the nutjob christians away into the new world.>>18360593>marvelslop fanfic
>>18359293Indeed. Once you see the census reports, you can never believe the lies. And people will literally throw you in jail for questioning it, that doesn't happen with any ither genocide.People are starting to wake up. And we'll give them one for REAL, if they want it so much. And this time, it'll be 100%. DEUS VULT!
Why make up these figures at all if they came up with the religion in the 2nd century instead of the turn of the millennium?What prestige is given to the stories by setting them 200 years earlier?
>>18359291>Jesus, all of the Apostles, and even Paul most likely never existed.There's a big gap between Jesus not existing and and all of the apostles not existing. Jesus is the sort of character who looks like he could easily be fictional if you don't cut out everything fantastical about him and say that what's left over looks reasonable enough therefore he must have existed. But with Paul we have letters claiming to be from the guy full of ordinary concerns like money and health issues and awkwardly defending his reputation against critics, and though there might be forgeries and interpolations mixed in, it's just simpler to say that Paul and the people he was talking to and about (who weren't revelatory divine beings) probably existed. The religion had to start somewhere.
>>18360831tl;dr demigods usually don't exist, mildly schizo cult leaders occasionally do exist
>>18360791Backdating things for prestige is such a well-established fact that you can go all the way back to Plato to read about it in detail. But that's not what's happening. The people who first wrote the NT weren't really placing Jesus in a historical context, but as a midrashic angel. Then later he gets placed into a historical context for reasons that aren't fully clear, but even the details of the timeframe isn't a well known fact among most Christians of Antiquity and the early Medieval period. The use of the year 1 AD as a dating mechanism didn't become common until later in the Medieval period.
>>18360831Well Paul is probably the best attested of the apostles, but it is almost a guarantee that some of the apostles are made up. Judas, for example, is almost certainly just as midrashic as Jesus due to the role he fulfills in the story. Others are barely mentioned.And they just so happen to number 12, just like the made up number of tribes, because Plato says 12 is the big brain magic number.
>>18360961There may not have been an apostle named Judas Iscariot, and the kiss thing definitely seems old-testament-derived, but I think his story could also be partly inspired by some real-life analogue who was most directly responsible for Paul getting executed, since 1 Clement seems to say that both Paul and Peter's martyrdoms were due to envy, which in context seems to mostly mean infighting. And if Acts has any historical basis, Paul like Jesus had a good number of Jews on the outside interested in seeing him dead as well.Acts 13:45"When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him."Acts 9:22-24"Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him."In Acts 21, Paul even has a temple incident of his own, similar to Jesus, which results in his arrest, where he's accused of bringing gentiles into the temple. Acts assures us he was innocent, but I wonder if he really was innocent, since during Jesus' temple incident in the earlier gospel of Mark, what he says can be read as a preemptive defense of Paul bringing gentiles into the temple.Mark 11:17"And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”
>>18360961Also 12 is the big brain magic number. IIRC it's the largest of only three numbers each of which is divisible by every smaller highly composite number and divides every larger highly composite number, with the others being just 1 and 2. So 12 has unique ultra special mega highly composite powers.
>>18361018That's true. I think it comes down to which ideas and texts we suppose came before which other ideas and texts. I don't recall Acts very clearly, so this is an improvised hypothesis, but one could imagine that Acts was written after the Jesus-Judas narrative was written. Clearly the Jews of the time were deep into making everything rhyme, so having the leader of the movement (Saul) be persecuted and have mirrored experiences to the angelic midrash (Jesus) he is promoting could be seen as mutually validating.Having two similar stories does not automatically mean that one is true. Both could be lies.
>>18361031Acts definitely was written well after the Jesus-Judas narrative. But if Paul was a real person who traveled a lot and started a lot of churches, he should've had some real known history that the author of Acts had to contend with.1 Clement is traditionally dated around 96 AD which would put it after Mark, but most everyone who wants to adjust the date would move it earlier, before the temple was destroyed because the author seems to still think the temple sacrifices are happening, among other reasons, which would also put it before the common date for Mark.
>>18361045>if Paul was a real person who traveled a lot and started a lot of churchesYeah, if. I don't claim to know either way, but I am certainly open to much more than just Jesus and the walking dead being fictional.There's a supposedly very good scholar doing the rounds these years arguing for Paul's non-existence, but her name escapes me because she lacks a Y chromosome and I am not keen on listening to those people without remuneration.
>>18359291>>18359580jew
>>18361050>her name escapes meYou might be thinking of Nina Livesey who Carrier has responded to with disagreement, though at a glance it seems like her main idea is just that all the Pauline letters were forged, only leaving open the possibility that Paul didn't exist rather than explicitly making a case for it.https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/37123
>>18359291A local Jewish agitator named Chrestus? Surely this couldn't be a reference to the local Jewish agitator named Christus.
>>18361088>yet another Christian thinks Jesus is named Christus
>>18361153Nickname, title, whatever, it still refers to Jesus.
>>18361073I'll be honest, the fact that Carrier uses Bayes' theorem for the existence of Jesus tells me 100% that no matter how impressive his credentials are he is, and always will be, a midwit.
>>18361161Why? There were tons of messiahs running around at the time. It could refer to any of them.You do know that "Christ" is just a translation of messiah, right? A "Christian" means a "messianic (judaist)".
>>18361196At that time there was only one of note.
>>18361169Why not use Bayes? Maybe it barely rises above pure vibes and is easily done wrong, but sometimes putting actual numbers to things is helpful in an argument involving several uncertainties that would otherwise be a blur of vibes. Imagine if at one time it was thought that only midwit scientists tried applying numbers to physics, while the pros studied it all on intuition and eyeballing.
>>18361198lmao you faggots don't know jack about your own religion's historical context
>>18361213>Several Jewish rebels and military leaders lived in the 1st century, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas, Simon of Peraea, and Athronges, all of whom are only documented by Josephus in surviving accounts. None of them was explicitly stated to have been thought of as a Messiah but some scholars make this as an inference.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants#1st_century>youI am not even slightly religious.
>>18361240You're being retarded. Christ means messiah. A reference to a "Christ" (assuming that's what Chrestus is) is a reference to a messiah. You then make the assumption that all references to messiahs are actually references to Jesus, and then voila, there are no references to non-Jesus messiahs. Fallacious.Also, all jewish anti-gentile leaders are messianic by the very nature of jewish messianism, you don't really need a specific source saying that this or that jew called him a messiah.
>>18361253Should have looked up the actual text earlier.>Therefore, to scotch the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue.This is what Tacitus wrote in the Annals, book 15, chapter 44. Not only did he mention that Christus was executed by a Pontus Pilates in the reign of Tiberius, but also that Nero used Christians as scapegoats, seemingly in Rome itself if you read the previous passages.So for this Christus to be someone other than Jesus that guy has to have also been executed by Pontus Pilates, a person who is completely unheard of in any other pre-Christian Roman sources, and that his messianic sect spread all the way to Italy just like Christianity.
>>18361320I forgot that that was the context. Some other anon actually had some good insights into why this might be a forgery in some other thread, but that's neither here nor there.I concede that as that text stands, it would be ridiculous of me to suggest that this isn't referencing Jesus.
>>18361320There's an extra part at the end of this passage which is significant.> Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.And imo there's a good argument that it's been interpolated and/or that despite appearances it doesn't refer to our Jesus and Christians, but it's a pain to remember in full and repeat in full so I will refer to links even if it looks like coping:Some summary and responsehttps://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=934https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/17187Some videos which IIRC are probably preferable and more convenient:https://youtu.be/jF3EUqLoH6Uhttps://youtu.be/rfecG8F2wt8
>>18359291>>The oldest verifiable mention of Christians comes from the letters of Pliny the Elder who refers to “Christiani” as a local mystery cult worshipping the god Serapis (sometimes called Christos by his followers) who was heavily influenced by Jewish mysticism. Christos is a Greek trainslation of Ha-Mashiach, AKA the Messaiah which, literally translates to something like "the anointed one." Being covered in oils was a great honor conferred upon kings. So in this context, this may not have had anything to do with Christianity at all.
>>18361435I read the article, or atleast most of it, and I'm not at all convinced. Carre makes some good points, but others makes no sense, like that there would already be a standard spelling for a fresh Greek loanword that the Greeks themselves sometimes spelled with an E. He also doesn't seem to consider how unreliable ancient authors are nor does he explain why Christians would even forge it.Not to mention that he's an insufferable faggot who repeatedly disparages and insults the guy he's arguing against.
>>18359291>atheist said somethinginto the garbage can it goes
>>18363387I'm not an atheist, and I say this.Out of the garbage can it goes.
>>18359599Paul was made up by Marcion, though he was later Judaized by the Judaizers.
>>18361453Christos and messiah are a title meaning "redeemer", savior.
>>18363445They both mean anointed. Kings and priests in the old testament are also called anointed. For example, in 1 Samuel 24:6, David calls King Saul Yahweh's anointed, which in the original Hebrew would be the word we usually write as Messiah or in the Greek Septuagint Christ.
