Starting with these History of the Andes threads! I've been studying for my finals and since in an older thread I made, people found the theme interesting I'll be using my free time to bring up texts or topics I think are worth discussing.Today I will touch the Caral debate: can this settlement in the coasts of Peru (3000ac-1600ac) actually be considered a state society or simply a rather advanced chiefdom? the authors covering this question generally make these next points.In short, one side says:>The religious constructions found in the site are of a complexity and size that demand a considerable amount of specialized manpower with knowledge of math and basic arithmetics >That considerable amount of specialized manpower had to be overseen and directed>That considerable amount of specialized manpower had to be fed, which meant that there was an excess of food produced>The overseeing elite used these constructions to perform rituals that legitimized their authority as god-like messengers>Presence of imported products meaning there was comercial activity in the region probably led by this same eliteWe could argue these characteristics are proper for a state society, but at the same time, other historians argue>The low demographic density in the site>The lack of signs of a violent coercion, meaning the religious elite did not posses the monopoly of violence>The idea that giant constructions don't necesarily demand the presence of state-like organization if these were of a result of a long-term process>The apparent lack of social distinction in tombs and iconography, which dillutes the idea of a clearly distinguished eliteWhat do you think about it Anon? In my opinion, there is the possibility of a state-like society without the need of violent coercion. There was probably an ideological coercion instead, where the inhabiters of this site where mindraped into obedience. Do you think these characteristics are of acomplexity that of a state society?
I guess the lowest tier civilization there is is where there's some sort of religious temple complex with royals living in it and they literally go around to the local villages and demand labor and food which I would say would be pretty hard to refuse, because the consequences of which was your family was raped and enslaved and your village burned.
>>18360035I think the disctinction between a 'state' and a non-state form of human organization is somewhat arbitrary, to be honest. That said, I would say Caral was not. Caral was likely not a traditional city but instead a ceremonial site several groups met at during certain dates, being populated by a small group the rest of the time. They likely did not have the capacity to enforce their authority without the consent of at least most of the surrounding settlements. All of which also display monumental architecture and even architectural similarities between eachother.PS: Can you link some (hopefully open acess) articles about this? I think linking some reading material would improve the threads. I don't know much about Caral and I think the average anon here knows even less.
>>18360125That thing in the end would be in fact violent coercion. I think the population was fed the idea that "without the religious elite, the gods will unleash their wrath" sorta thing you know? but not necesarily a state with military control.>>18360157Right! I think I could've added a little bit more context to make it easier for people without background on the topics. I didn't do that initially due to the short character limit but I could've added it in a reply. Thanks for the suggestion anon. The most important and accesible source is this one:>Shady Solis' research article defending her state posturehttps://www.zonacaral.gob.pe/downloads/publicaciones/libro-caral-the-oldest-civilization-in-the-americas-2004.pdfOpposing in views, we have an older investigation done by American anthropologist Richard Burger>Richard Burger's article on his investigation, translated in spanishhttps://revistasinvestigacion.unmsm.edu.pe/index.php/Arqueo/article/download/12212/10920/42602Sadly, other articles remain unstranslated or require payment for access.One of my preferred sources on the matter of how to disctinct state from other types of civilization is the next:>Marcelo Campagno - El origen de los primeros estados (Coleccion Ciencia Joven, Eudeba - 2007)
What was going on in the Andes after Caral but before the Chavin
>>18361317It's a huge chronological gap of about a thousand years, of which very little is known. But newly discovered sites such as Peñico (an architectural complex close to Caral) are bridging the gap. Peñico seems to be a "successor city" to Caral, inhabited some centuries later.There are also some sites near Sechín (which is as old as Caral) that seem to be built and inhabited during that thousand year gap too.
