>>18361619
something something horseshoe theory

In reality, fascism and communism superficially resemble eachother because both ideologies focus on leveraging industry on a state-level in order to achieve their respective ideals, whether it's to seize the means of production for the working class or to implement what was basically the 19th and early 20th century version of Accelerationism but with more single-party dictatorship characteristics.

>>18361619
Dumb post. The point of fascism is they rejected the principles of the French revolution, which includes the arbitrary left/right dichotomy

>>18361638
This is my understanding as well, however:
>In reality, fascism and communism superficially resemble eachother
In practice yes but not in theory.
In theory communism wants to abolish state, abolish class, abolish kapital (money, property).
In practice however, communism becomes the opposite: It forms an authoritarian ultranationalist, militaristic, single-party wealthy elites that rules the masses through collectivism.
Basically, communism in practice becomes what fascism is in theory.

>>18361646
French revolution was about replacing the estates of the clergy, nobility, peasants and monarchy, with citizens of a nation.

>>18361619
Left and right only make sense within the context of a capitalist democracy that allows two parties to divide and control the Proles while giving them the illusion of choice.
Generally the 'left wing' represents the social revolutionary aspects of the society (such as Jews or homosexuals) while the 'right wing' represents the entrenched monetary interests of the elite. A fascist state suppresses both the social revolutionaries and the moneyed interests, therefore doing away with an unnecessary dichotomy

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>>18361619
I think you're overstating the collectivist aspects of Italian fascism. Like yeah they wanted Italians to do their duty to the state and to ~Italy~ but I read that as more like a "general will" sort of thing, it was not at all about living in some collective borg hive. The Nazis actually resembled the communists much more in the collectivist style in practice and what people tend to think of when the word "totalitarianism" comes to mind (even though that word was originally coined by the Italians) although obviously the Aryan race ideology was radically opposed to communism:
https://youtu.be/oYZjNdKH6s8

I read "A History of Fascism" by Stanley Payne recently and it was pretty interesting. He's a fairly conservative (non-leftist) historian so it was useful to break out of the usual left-wing takes on it. Really where I think fascism embodied a right-wing mentality was in its opposition to materialism and instrumental rationalism. This is something you see among political reactionaries of many stripes, like "they want us to live in the pod and eats the bugs." The fascists really saw communism and liberalism and so forth as turning people into pod people who lacked any higher spiritual values. The ideal fascist subject is supposed to be like a knight with a "destiny" and fate.

>>18361643
spbp

OP why do you care so much about fascism being left or right wing? It's the ultimate bugman ideology whatever "wing" its on. That's all that matters.

>>18361619
fascism is permanently associated with the nazis because italy joined the axis and they are both authoritarian systems. That's just the way it is.

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>>18362159
An interesting thing (when talking about political ideologies and left/right) is that before the alliance with Hitler, Mussolini sought allies elsewhere in Europe among conservative authoritarian rightists. Mussolini preferred the Stahlhelm in Germany in the 1920s which was an anti-communist veterans association.

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To go back to this point about anti-materialism/anti-rationalism (rejection of the Enlightenment), again if you look at a lot of rightists, a lot of them really have a feeling that they've had it out with modern life. Like they look around at people consuming goyslop and they turn into bugmen, it's just not based. Is this the best there is? Around the turn of the 20th century there was a period called the fin de siecle which was said to be marked by social/cultural degeneracy and also cynicism, pessimism, and ennui.

A fascist ethic as I see it is not that "great people build empires" but people *become* great by building empires. In that sense it's kind of revolutionary (arguably) and seems similar to revolutionary leftism because it seeks a radical transformation of society. It's not conservative even though fascists ended up in alliances with conservatives with an authoritarian bent to their politics. Also within the fascist ethic is a rejection of bourgeois society which challenges the self-regarding Marxist belief that they alone have a monopoly on hostility to the bourgeoisie. Or at least bourgeois cultural values and norms.

Reading the Payne book though made me think it wasn't all that interesting. I was coming across passages and thinking, oh, they wanted to do Starship Troopers. Or Helldivers 2. This sounds dumb to reference these pop culture products but maybe because fascism came out of the 1920s, it does sound like a retro sci-fi franchise. The fascists had ranks like Federal Inspector. Also they would mirror Roman legionary titles. They had a slogan: "Believe, Obey, Fight!" Like, a nation of heroes. Legends. Modeled on soldiers. That's really the wellspring of it.
https://youtu.be/S9STizATKjE

>>18362130
Why do I care?
Because the word is being used almost daily these days so it got me curious and I thought it's important to talk about it.

Using the word on a daily basis, and then not wanting to talk about it is... very dubious. Intellectually deceiving.

>>18362115
When I read their manifesto, that's what it pretty much tells me. They dont want individualism, they want a mass. Cogs for the machinery. The state is almost a religious entity.
It sounds more like they're looking for a way to maximize the strength of the state so that it can become more powerful than other states, hence why it was the states that were going through a hard time that turned to either fascism or communism.

So yeah, to me fascism sounds very much like socialists. They're the same grassroot people, but somewhere along the line there was a split. One side rejected statism and instead wanted to focus on class. The other side rejected class and wanted to focus on state.
Bu in the end, both sides wanted to achieve the same thing.

And then you can look at what they actually did.
Their state did resemble a socialist state. There are a few break-away aspects, such as privatization of businesses, but those corporations were still organized for the purpose of the state. This was actually the case with Nazi Germany as well. Independent but still subservient. As far as I know this is basically syndicalism, the organisation of independent groups in society to the state.

I'd like to hear that I am wrong.
I just dont see how I am wrong yet.

>>18361619
ignoring the pointless arguments of "what is left and what is right":
The Nazis gave fascism a bad name and it made it so bad that this movement, that was considered modern and exciting all over the western world, was political poisonous for anyone getting close to it or associated with it for 80 years and counting.

>>18362561
>socialist state. There are a few break-away aspects, such as privatization of businesses
That is a pretty big one, wouldn't you say? "They are basically Catholic, but reject the Trinity" is a pretty clear way of saying they are not Catholic.
The factory owners were steered towards the state goals, sure, but they were also paid.

>fascism sounds very much like socialists. They're the same grassroot people
except for all the (opportunistic) rich people who were markedly absent from socialist movements en large. Old money was conservative, many business leaders very much liked fascists.

Hey you know in that cool Musollini show you just watched and got a new hyperfocus for the week? When he says "We are the new"? Have a good think about that.

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>>18361619
fascism is the way