The will is perfected in heaven. You finally see God for what he is with no mediation or seperation (the Beatific Vision), and your will conforms to his naturally and perfectly. It wouldn’t seem you can sin or heaven or would want to leave.

The idea of heaven being a cloudy city where everyone is in permanent gospel choir with fluffy angels has done more harm than good. Heaven is the direct face to face knowledge and contact with the creator for eternity. You will never run feel bored because God is inexhaustible and the source of all goodness and being itself.

>>18364443
Why doesn't he just perfect it now instead of waiting to do it in heaven, if it is God doing it and not us? How is that not violating our free will?

>>18364447
You are given a choice to choose or reject him. Forcing your will here on this earth makes you a drone. That is not love. True love requires consent, he gives you the ability to turn to or away from him.

Heaven is an upgrade to what Adam initially received. Due to original sin man has been cut off from the inherent goodness and divinity of his existence at the hand of God, and the more sin there is the further this separation grows. Which leads not only to physical but spiritual death after our natural life has ceased. Christ bridged this gap and gave us the choice. Union with God (heaven) after death or seperation (hell). Your call. Since God is the ground of all being and the source of existence and goodness itself, I’d choose heaven personally.

>>18364437
I can't believe some Christcucks never ask this in their entire lives whereas I had this EXACT line of thought at like age 10, while in line for school lunch at a Christian school. I was thinking, "If Heaven is great, and I love being there, then why are all the people I hate going to be there too? How much of ME do I retain if I become chill with my mortal enemies in Heaven?"

>>18364456
It would seem you’re 11 now if you can’t understand why this is a stupid thought.

>>18364437
No, no, and no.

The Christian Biblical heaven, like another anon said isn't paradise where you can relax and do whatever you want in a realm of fluffy clouds.
It's described as a city made of glass and/or transparent crystals, encrusted with gold and gemstones. There is no day or night but a constant bright light emanating from God.
You spend every day for an infinite eternity in awe of God, worshipping him and praising him, singing about how great he is.
It is impossible to feel pain or discomfort, and every day there is a feast of rich foods and wine.

I would personally prefer non-being over such an existence.

>>18364469
>It's described as a city made of glass and/or transparent crystals, encrusted with gold and gemstones
I'm sure that sounded really impressive to the bronze age jewish cave men it was originally written for. I would expect the creator of the universe to do better though.

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>>18364437
>>18364443
>>18364447
>>18364454
>>18364456
>>18364459
>>18364469
>>18364474

"Going to Heaven" is like being assimilated into the Borg.

>>18364469
God is the source of goodness and being itself. In heaven you become fully aware of this. You are in constant worship and awe because your soul is eternally satisfied within the infinite good. God is ipsum esse subsistens. He is not a man in the clouds you are forced to prostate to constantly.

>>18364478
I believe free will isn't real, yet still I prefer my human brain illusion of feeling like I can do what I please. I don't want to be forced to the will of any God.
Too much pain is bad but a world where pain is impossible also seems like a hell to me, it's flat and one dimensional, without pain the good things are shallow.
The kind of person the Christian heaven would by it's nature mould us into becoming isn't your true human self, it's someone else. It is a Borg drone incapable of acting independently of God's will.
You aren't some unthinking soulless prayer battery exactly, but rather you're some uncanny valley version of yourself with the personality, the essence stripped out and replaced with a desire to only ever spend your time worshiping God.
In that case I would choose damnation over such an afterlife.

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>Do you have free will in Heaven?
Yes. Free will is not destroyed in Heaven; it is perfected. The soul retains intellect and will, but both are fully aligned with the vision of God (the Beatific Vision).

>Can you sin in Heaven?
No. The blessed cannot sin because they see God directly. Since God is perceived as the Supreme Good with complete clarity, the will cannot turn away from Him. The inability to sin is not coercion but the fulfillment of freedom.

>Can you freely choose to leave?
No. After the particular judgment and entrance into Heaven, the soul’s choice is fixed. Just as the fallen angels’ choice became irrevocable, so too the blessed are confirmed eternally in charity and union with God.

I hope that helps.

>>18364437
After the day of resurrection in the new age that's coming it's going to be a completely new creation, all the things of this age will be forgotten as if they never happened and we won't even be humans anymore but a brand new creation with new divine and incorruptible bodies. We are going to be given brand new names that means more than sons and daughters and that is how we will be known as, as the beloved [insert new name] of God.

>>18364491
>Yes. Free will is not destroyed in Heaven; it is perfected. The soul retains intellect and will, but both are fully aligned with the vision of God (the Beatific Vision).
Why didn't God just create everyone that way in the first place and avoid this whole mess? You people are retarded.

>>18364493
All prophets from Enoch to the apostles spoke of the new age.

1 Timothy 6:19
In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

I think heaven is like evangelion's hive mind ending as we become one with God.

>>18364502
I don't want to be in a hive mind though.

>>18364491
but why do some angels rebel? they have the Beatific Vision and are intelectually and spiritually superior since they dont reproduce sexually

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>>18364497
God could have created humanity already confirmed in glory. But that would mean creating rational creatures already at their final end, without the real possibility of merit, love freely chosen, or moral growth. Love that is incapable of refusal from the outset is not the same as love freely chosen in the face of alternatives. God permits the possibility of sin because He wills creatures who can truly choose Him, not beings created already “locked” into the final state without that journey.

>You people are retarded
Skill issue. Thanks for participating tho.

>>18364506
so reject oneness with God

>>18364506
You know God gives his servants magical powers like the ability to see through other people's eyes and witness and hear their thoughts? But of course imagine how much must you fear God and how innocent must be your heart for God to trust you with such gift.

>>18364509
Their choice occurred before that vision. Once an angel sees God in the Beatific Vision, sin becomes impossible because the intellect apprehends God as the absolute Good without obscurity.

>>18364512
I wish everybody understood that their minds are NOT private.

>>18364506
You’re already part of a hive mind. You exist in God’s dream. Your consciousness is merely an observer in it. Wholly contingent within it. Running from the source won’t get you anywhere but isolation and further pain.

>>18364521
but he still has his sense of self and choice to do good or evil, privacy is not his issue personal agency is

>>18364443
>The will is perfected in heaven. You finally see God for what he is with no mediation or seperation (the Beatific Vision), and your will conforms to his naturally and perfectly. It wouldn’t seem you can sin or heaven or would want to leave.
>source: just trust me bro

>>18364554
Well yeah that’s what faith is. Trust. You have subjective faith in nearly everything. God as the first cause and eternal principle can be figured out by reason and honesty in my opinion. Even leading scientists far more well versed in cosmology and physics than I am often concede some sort of deism or pantheism. Many of the most brilliant minds in the history of science did so also.

Jesus Christ requires the literal leap of faith, asking that you believe and trust in him and follow him as the son of God.

>>18364563
explain how you reached the conclusion of what you claimed through logic

>>18364526
What is the telos of the free will? What does personal agency give him? To what end does he seek total cosmic independence? Happiness, security, comfort perhaps. These things can be found in God. No man can trust his own free will and mind indefinitely as it changes often. What you choose and who you think you are could be radically different 5 years from now.

If it really is just a middle finger to God. A declaration of “my will be done, not yours”, then it’s classic pride. The sin that precedes all others. Why Lucifer was said to be cast out of heaven. He knew what God was, his goodness and truth, yet rebelled simply because he could not stomach being beneath him.

>>18364564
Fine tuned argument, the thought of the universe coming on its own from an ex nihilo void being absurd, hard problem of consciousness, lack of any decent materialist explanation for the origin or sustaining of the universe. Claiming it’s a multiverse just kicks the can down the road (what grounds that?), and or that it comes from a preceding contracting universe where entropy flowed backwards being also absurd and a violation of what we know as the laws of physics. All these led me to believe there has to be an uncaused cause, a first mover, a pure eternal being that must exist by necessity. Or God. Spinoza and Einstein even took it this far. Believing in a “watchmaker God” or “cosmic principle” that underpins and sustains all reality.

Christ, like I said, is the matter of personal faith you yourself must choose and make the decision to follow. That this man was the Logos incarnate, died for the sins of humanity, rose from the dead, and grants eternal life to those who accept him. The reason I chose this is a mixture of personal reasons, upbringing, the historic success of Christianity, its applicability to practically every human culture, its extremely good moral system, the theological arguments of the Churches, desire to see myself become my best version and even fear of judgement upon death. These are just some of the reasons I decided to put my faith in Christ.

>>18364437
>Do you have free will in Heaven?
No. You will always make the choice that results in the most holy and righteous action. It is impossible to be anything less than absolutely perfect in Heaven.
>Can you sin in Heaven?
No, it is impossible.
>Can you freely choose to leave?
No, it is impossible in every ontological way.

>>18364443
In this case what is the difference between yourself and God once your will is perfected?

>>18364447
>Why doesn't he just perfect it now instead of waiting to do it in heaven?
Unknown. Any other answer is dishonest.

>>18364650
NTA but God lives by his own will, everyone else also lives by his will. Everyone depends on him but he does not depend on anyone.

>>18364491
>Free will is not destroyed in Heaven; it is perfected. The soul retains intellect and will, but both are fully aligned with the vision of God (the Beatific Vision).
Dishonest semantics.

>>18364454
Except people only “reject” god because they don’t see enough evidence for him and his religion being real. God personally showing himself to everyone would give them a reason to believe.

>>18364659
But if your will is "perfected" then you must have equal capability with God.

>>18364665
That’s not what will is. Will is your action. Your actions are perfected in pointing to the source of goodness (God). You remain human in heaven. In a glorified spirit body.

>>18364680
That situation is incoherent.

>>18364566
and that is why Adam and Eve ate the apple so they would have divine knowledge of good and evil

>>18364680
People don't go to heaven, there will be a new heaven and a new earth and we will inherit the new earth. The kingdom of God will be on earth, the son of God will rule forever from Israel.

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>>18364662
Calling that “dishonest semantics” is like saying a mathematician is being dishonest for distinguishing between *ignorance* and *certainty*, or a doctor for distinguishing *health* from *disease*. The terms are doing real philosophical work.

I believe that desiring Jesus Christ as a lover is an unforgivable sin.

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Yes
>>18364437

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>>18364437
>Do you have free will in Heaven?
Yes. The reason you have free will right now is because it's one of God's sublime capacities
>Can you sin in Heaven?
It has no meaning. Sin is simply the consequences of your actions in this physical/mental world vale of tears. There are no such actions to be taken in heaven/paradise, and therefore no consequence.
>Can you freely choose to leave?
Yes, you can enter the wheel of samsara again, and the great souls/world teachers repeatedly do, for all sentient beings' sake

>>18364907
So you're saying that Lucifer's rebellion didn't exist?

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>>18364920
>Lucifer's rebellion didn't exist
Lucifer's act of separation IS existence. Without it, there would ONLY be heaven, not heaven plus the familiar vale of tears we're conversing in. Remember who "this world" belongs to?

>>18364437
>Do you have free will in Heaven? Can you sin in Heaven? Can you freely choose to leave?

Sin means turning away from God, who is the source of all good, and putting some lesser good in His place. Theologically speaking, it is a misuse of the will that damages your relationship with God, with others, and even with yourself.

Free will, in our current situation, is usually described as the ability to choose between good and evil. We live in that kind of duality: we can say “yes” or “no” to God, we can choose love or selfishness. So here, free will is experienced as “I can go in either direction”.

Heaven is not that same situation. Heaven is understood as seeing God “face to face”, seeing the Good itself without confusion. When the will is fully healed and God is completely known and loved, the inner division that makes sin possible disappears. The concept of “sin” belongs to this mixed, wounded state we are in now, not to the final state of union with God.

So, about free will in heaven: yes, there is still will, and it is still free, but it does not work as “I might choose God, or I might walk away”. In heaven you always choose the good, not because you are forced, but because you see clearly that this is what you really want and what really fulfills you.

Always choosing the good is not a lack of freedom; that is actually full freedom.

Choosing evil does not make you “more free”. Theologically, sin always enslaves. The will becomes hooked, curved in on itself, less capable of loving. It looks like “another option”, but in reality it reduces you, it closes you, it makes you less free. That is the paradox.

>>18364437
No, you become a battery of joy for god to harvest for all eternity. You lose your individuality.

>>18364951
You just don't like the fact that heaven and hell are like Diablo games.

>>18364981
You deny the prophecy of the apocalypse

>>18364573
none of that explains how reason helped you reach the conclusion that will is perfected in heaven, that you see god authentically and your will merges with god's will. What does any of this gibberish even mean

The Book of Revelation says that it is possible

>>18365224
This is his ignorance, he refuses to read the Bible and invents his own concepts like any Christian.

>>>18364573
To explain how reason gets you to that conclusion,
you first have to explain concepts,
many concepts,
because the language you need (or have to learn)
to even try to rationalize “God as infinite”
matters.

First you have to define what “God” means.
When we say “God”,
what are we referring to?

For me,
the best explanation is Maimonides.
It’s the most rationally correct explanation
of what divinity is supposed to be.

Ok,
if God is basically “everything we cannot say about Him”
more than what we can say about Him,
that already implies infinity.

God would be infinite,
an infinite being.

And at the same time:
unique,
one.

And that creates a paradox,
the one and the two.

Meaning:
if God is infinite,
then He needs nothing.

But if He is infinite,
even if He is one,
within that infinity
there would have to be some kind of plurality.

So then:
how does anything “come out” of that?

I’m separating it from the infinite here,
because if you take “the infinite that is God”
and you say it makes a copy of itself
or does something with its own essence,
you end up with another infinite.

And infinite plus infinite is still infinite,
so in that sense it “can’t exist”
as a real difference.

There has to be a…
a trigger,
something that produces an actual difference.

And the cause,
thinking as a human,
I can’t explain the infinite.
So I’m going to explain it
through my own experience,
through the human mind.

But it’s not really like that... ok
That first primordial impulse
would look like a “desire”.

But how can God desire?
God doesn’t desire,
God is infinite.

so there’s a “desire”
that creates an opposite:
finitude.

>>18365242

...

Inside God,
inside the infinite,
a finite space appears.

But when you desire something
it’s because something is not in you,
right?

That desire,
because it’s different from unity,
is a desire for duality.

And a desire for duality
is a desire to move away from God,
from the One.

So this reality we live in,
physical,
dual,
is that “desire” of God
to move away from Himself,
or.... to find Himself.

we dont know...

But that’s the frame I’m using
to make logical sense
of why the will is “perfected” in heaven:

because your will was never separated from God,
not ever.

The subjectivity we have
in physical reality
is part of that desire for separation,
or separation in order to find Himself.

I hope you get what I mean.

My understanding of the theology was just that God foresees whether anyone's free will would lead them to behavior unfitting of heaven and just doesn't let them in. That'd mean the place is basically empty of course, but it's at least an internally consistent concept I guess. The answer would be "yes, but if you get in, you wouldn't". Whereas >>18364443 is just a verbose way of saying "no, your will stops being free once you're in".

>>18364961
More dishonest semantics.