This will be my last thread here. The reasons are varied, but mainly due to the accumulation of lunatic and provocative individuals and the failure to comply with forum rules, history is no longer discussed and people do not participate in the discussions. My thanks to one of the few anons who takes discussions seriously and has done significant work in expanding ideas about the Indo-Europeans, particularly their ethnonyms and myths. I believe that he and I were able to contribute to this discussion, and the discussions were indeed interesting, and much new information was learned. Thank you all. Good luckI've been researching articles related to Armenia and its mythology lately, and unfortunately, the Iranian influence is almost omnipresent. Perhaps this is why practically no researcher proposes to include Armenian in Indo-European studies. And with the lack of authors, I am forced to limit myself to the few who have written about it.
>>18380468There may be some similar myths among the Armenians, Indians, and Hurrians, focusing on Aram, Rama, and Teššub. https://www.academia.edu/37531086/Armeno_Indian_Epic_Parallels_Journal_of_Indo_European_studies_2017_172_186Basically, Aram defeats an adversary near Mount Argaeus, associated with the Indo-European myth of "black and white," which I was not familiar with until todaynames derived from *h2reh1mo- 'dark' and *h2erg- 'bright, white" present an interesting connection here. After the victory, Aram leaves Mšak as governor, and the people begin to call the Armenians "Hay" by the name of Aram.Indic is also Rama is the name of Indian heroes. defeats Arjuna and names Ramaghata Mūšika as the first king of the Mūšaka kingdomNow, let's see the etymologies and connections between kingdom names and ancient myths
>>18380474Now things get more interesting. We've already had some discussions here about possible influences of IE on Hurrian, and I assume we've only been dealing with Armenian. It could very well be a borrowing, yes, but I find it hard to believe that Hurrian influenced Armenian as much as Indecasyll.The "Silver god" was a adversary of Teššub, and according to this paper, his name derives from the IE *h2erg'- ('shining'). And very Interestingly, the Anatolian thunder god was also associated with the color black in rituals (they used black vessels and sacrificed animals and black bread). Some authors argue that the color black in Indo-European societies could have had a warlike role, at least in relation to the koryos.The fight between Teššub and Silver took place near Kummia (Teššub's cult center in Cappadocia), As Teššub was venerated on Mount Argaeus since antiquity, Aram (who defeats an opponent there) could be equated with Teššub, the author insists that Aram may be the Armenian name/epithet of Teššub, linking him to the Indian Rāma.
>>18380478And haven't found any other articles that address this topic, so we're stuck here. Finally, the author concludes that perhaps we might be dealing with mythical parallels borrowed from Indo-Iranian mythology in Armenian through Mittani, or influences from the ancient Near East on Indian mythology; the arguments are based on the image of Paraśurāma and its etymology.But I'm open-minded! What do you think?? Any Thoughts?
>>18380468I think another forum would be appropriate for mythology & religion because it isn't historyHistory is actual real world events in the past, mythology & religion is more like spooky fiction told around campfires before bedtime
>>18380495mythology and religion shape history immensely, and the earliest myths are basically a version of history.
>>18380495This secular atheist view doesn't reflect how religion and "mythology" are structured. Go back to eddit
>>18380478>>18380474>>18380468Interesting, is there anything else you could share?
>>18380468>This will be my last thread here.Sorry to hear that. Would it be possible to stay in touch with you?>>18380485>Finally, the author concludes that perhaps we might be dealing with mythical parallels borrowed from Indo-Iranian mythology in Armenian through Mittani, or influences from the ancient Near East on Indian mythology;The matter of who was influencing who is often very speculative, and there's probably no way to deny Indo-Iranian influence altogether. Whatever the case, linguistics can be used for discernment. ConsiderPIE *h2reh1-mó--> Armenian ⟨Aram⟩-> Sanskrit ⟨Rāmá⟩*h2 is lost in Indo-Iranian in this context. This is because all the Corded Ware languages exhibit the sound change *#HC- > *#C- which probably happened relatively early in their shared prehistory. The preservation of the word-initial laryngeal before a consonant is characteristic of Graeco-Armenian. So if ⟨Aram⟩ is cognate with ⟨Rāmá⟩ then we can conclude Armenians inherited some aspects of this character and its mythology from Yamnaya thereby predating Indo-Iranian influence.We have to be careful though because Armenian actually did not tolerate word-initial #r- in its prehistory and automatically inserted an epenthetic vowel at the beginning of loanwords starting with #r-. However, Hrach Martirosyan assures us that the standard prothetic vowel for loans is ⟨e-⟩ unless the root contains a labial vowel, so ⟨Aram⟩ should reflect a Yamnaya inheritance.
Oh, first time I come here, and as soon as I see a thread related with Armenian History (feeling honoured to be mentioned yay), I also see the anon posting for the last time :CBut anyway, hope you have a good continuation! (and as >>18380646 said, if there is a way to stay in touch...)and for the omnipresence of Iranian influence, well, one has to take into account the proximity+ the long-lasting domination of Persia over Armenia (even giving a dynasty to it); another thing to take into account is how much have we lost particularly during the Genocide, when isolated villages, where oral traditions may have been transmitted nearly unaltered through times immemorial, were completely annihilated...Another point, just after the Genocide, the situation was no better: in the Diaspora, time was for reconstruction and nationalism in order to survive as Armenians outside our natal lands; meanwhile in the Republic of Armenia, communism -and its scientific methodology-, uhm well, broke havok (oh God, if you only knew...). Leading to today, where we have a BIG work to do to clean what we have from ultra-nationalistic and "bolshevik" (can't explain in other words, it's more the mindset and methodology than anything else that I qualify as "bolshevik", iykwim) elements; easier said than done...Now, as a small contribution to this thread, we do know that the toponym Armenia comes from Darius the Great's 6th-century BC Behistun Inscription (which is made just 50 or so years after the fall of Urartu; is there a link?). I saw a few other hypotheses, but the Behistun inscription is the safest atm. for the mythology part, I do have a few papers that I have put aside for when I do get some time to read them (with all the things and other readings that I have to do orz), so I can share them here or somewhere else maybe...
Although Petrosyan talks about ⟨Armen⟩ and ⟨Aram⟩ as if these are related, it's not clear that any etymological relationship is necessary. In fact, the notion that Armenians should be named after Aram seems odd.
There's not much to go on here. I personally am sick of the "black and white" trope. Especially when you consider that it's heavily pushed by people who come from countries whose language didn't distinguish between black and blue.There's also a confusion because anything not visible per our limited spectrum can be considered "black".So you can have anything from planetary objects like Jupiter whose temperature and mass is not high enough and called a blackbody; you can have vortexes; other kinds of waves beside lightwaves; whatever the baricenter is; and just about any kind of force that is not even necessarily a black hole.Perhaps it was just the gravitational pull between planets being in a tug of war, which is an idea that has been in our memories since time immemorial (the clash of the titans, the apocalypse, you name it).
>>18380485A potential Greek parallel to the *h2reh1mo- vs *h2erǵ- conflict:In the legend of Melanthos (the dark character) and Xanthos (the light character), Xanthos, the king of the Boeotians, challenges the Athenian king to a duel. Melanthos, representing Athens, defeats Xanthos through a deceptive trick: he claims a third figure in a black goat skin (identified as Dionysus Melanaigis) is standing behind Xanthos. When Xanthos turns to look, Melanthos kills him from behind.
>>18380485In Irish myth we may consider Diarmuid Ua Duibhne (the dark character) vs Finn (the light character)
>>18380485This is very speculative, but there may be something related going on in Roman myth. It's not clear.Romulus and Remus are from the city Alba Longa (alba meaning white), and Romulus and Remus are descendants of the Alban royal line.Romulus kills his twin brother Remus.The etymology of Rōma "Rome" and Rōmulus isn't known. It would be really weird if it ⟨Rōm-⟩ came from *h2roh1-m-.
>>18380646>Sorry to hear that. Would it be possible to stay in touch with you?Hello my friend. How are you? Honestly, I don't have any social media accounts, but we can keep in touch via email or another alternative. I think I already suggested this to you, I'm sure that if you created a profile focused specifically on linguistics and addressed the issues you've already discussed here, it would have a greater impact than it has here. The X is where this whole linguistic and Indo-European bubble in general is, or a blog of its own. What you write will surely help many others like me.
>>18380646>The preservation of the word-initial laryngeal before a consonant is characteristic of Graeco-ArmenianIt's interesting that you're considering the Greek-Armenian language; I've commented on this in a few threads, and I believe it's useful to consider.>So if ⟨Aram⟩ is cognate with ⟨Rāmá⟩ then we can conclude Armenians inherited some aspects of this character and its mythology from Yamnaya thereby predating Indo-Iranian influenceHave you read what Douglas Q. Adams wrote about this? I ended up not including it in the thread, but apparently the word "Rama" in Sanskrit may have connections with other Indo-European languages. Meaning "to sustain, to make immobile" (Indo-European: ram, reme, *romo-). The wiki talks a lot about "dark," and the sense of "dark, black, soot" also appears in other languages, such as *remos and Old English romig. This article itself didn't deal much with its etymology. See:
>>18380646>However, Hrach Martirosyan assures us that the standard prothetic vowel for loans is ⟨e-⟩ unless the root contains a labial vowel, so ⟨Aram⟩ should reflect a Yamnaya inheritance.Interesting!I didn't have this information, I'll assume we're dealing with at least one Yamnaya name. The myth itself may be interesting; the article argues that the theme may in fact be Indo-European. The word "Paraśurāma" ('Rāma with the axe') may supposedly have been borrowed from the ancient Near East, given that "parašu" (axe) is an Akkadian loanword. I didn't find any articles related to this, but the opposition between Teššub (god of thunder) and Silver could be interpreted by the Indo-European myth of "black and white". There is also the question of whether the names of Teššub and his adversary are Indo-European loanwords.>>18380687Interesting post! Is there anything more specific you'd like to share? Thanks for participating>>18380724Yes, I didn't understand this part, and I don't believe the myths are more alike than both being "founding" figures in a certain sense.
OP again, I think the rabbit hole is deeper than that.. Mallory and Adams say that the legends about Rama have elements similar to Welsh tales like Branwen and Manawydan, suggesting shared ancient roots. I am not an avid reader of Welsh mythology, though. We are dealing with a PIE myth, and as>>18380789 attested, there is possibly Greek potential.
>>18380807I thought exactly the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me, especially considering the parallels in cultures as far apart as Welsh and IndicDue to a lack of consensus, authors simply say it could be Etruscan or Greek.
>>18380793That's great, is there anything else we can consider?
>>18380903>I think the rabbit hole is deeper than thatSimmer down now. The universal mythos has already been uncovered and there is no weird mystical rabbit hole.
>>18380903>>18380646So it can be really derived from PIE??
>>18380807actually means man from Rome in the archaic Latin. Before the Romans used the "i" to denote a ppl (Romani for example) they used "ulus". It's one of the big bits of evidence that point to Romulus being made
>>18380888Some stuff I can think rn:1-for myths, I would recommend reading Jean-Loic le Quellec, he's an expert in myths and mythology: for example, he was able to trace back the origin of some myths (if they originated from the cradle of Humanity or were developed later en route to the Homo species out of Africa) based on the recurrence of myth patterns; idk if I was clear, but really, go read his works, the methodology he uses is already extremely valuable as a tool for future research, to know *how* to think and *how* to look at the evidence. To tell you his professionalism, he even wrote a book criticising the idol of many people [his younger-day-self idol too], C.G.Jung and his archetypes concept (btw, Jung is also a great read, would recommend too, even for self-growth; saved my life and really, the methodology [again] and the way *how* he saw and analysed the anthropological evidence really enlightened me, not exaggerating)Another point concerning myths, don't underestimate archaeological evidence (archaeologist here, hello, I know pretty well this field :D ), particularly when it comes to texts and iconography. The good stuff to incorporating archaeological evidence in this context is that you get to see the works of experts on a global scale, with different POVs (read, methodology and approaches/School of Thought [ie-French School, Anglo-saxon, German etc). Also, at the end of the day, one has to have a holistic approach, in other words, one has to "use" every field to try understanding stg and tend to the "truth" (because reaching it is, well, pretty impossible, but that's another debate)[continuation coming on the next message]
>>18380646>PIE *h2reh1-mó->-> Armenian ⟨Aram⟩Sorry, I should have been paying closer attention. I glossed over this because Petrosyan gave *h2reh1-mó- here, but actually that preform would have given *arē-mo- > *ari-mo- in the prehistory of Armenian.The issue with the correct epenthetic vowel for loanwords still stands. It is difficult to interpret ⟨Aram⟩ as an Indo-Iranian loan when we should see ˣ⟨Eram⟩ instead. The answer might be schwebeablaut or a zero-grade. I.e., *h2(e)rh1-mó- > ⟨Aram⟩ (since Armenian gives -CaC- for *-CHC-). This can be refined further with *h2(o)rh1-mó- since *h2e should normally give Armenian ˣ⟨ha-⟩. Then suddenly the resemblance to ⟨Rōma⟩ becomes more apparent.*h2(o)rh1-m- > Arm ⟨Aram⟩ *h2roh1-m- > Lat ⟨Rōma⟩ (?)Skt ⟨Rāmá⟩ is compatible with *h2ro(h1)-m- or *h2reh1-m-.Usually there is a *reason* for the schwebeablaut or zero-grade to happen though. It's not clear what would create this difference between Armenian and Indo-Iranian/Italic preforms.>>18380871I'm doing great. If you do want to stay in touch, here is my advice:send an email. Then we will discuss other options. That way nosy people aren't spying.>>18380879>Have you read what Douglas Q. Adams wrote about this?No, not until now.>>18380943>So it can be really derived from PIE??⟨Aram⟩ doesn't look like Rāma loaned from Indo-Iranian. I can say that such a loan should have given ˣ⟨Eram⟩, but I recommend treading with caution until more thought is put into this word.
>>18381044[continuation of previous message]2- for armenian myths, let me give you one example to show a potential effect of the 1915 Genocide: in a book treating about Urartu and printed in 1912 (so, before 1915), the writer tells a version of the epoch of the Daredevils of Sassoun (Sanasar & Balthazar, Mher Sr, David, Mher Jr) that, frankly, for me, a Diaspora-Armenian that has grown up in an armenian environment and all, was ENTIRELY new; but, when I thought about it as an archaeologist, it sounded very logical and maybe even more plausible taking into account the historical context: this version was making links with the Neo-Assyrian empire and iirc Shalmanazar, with S. & B. (i think one of them had a different name) being his children that fled to what-would-be Sassoun, becoming the rulers of that newly-founded city, but the locals being, well, locals, so not Assyrian... it's a bit vague because I read it around 1 am, but I was pretty flabbergasted, to say so...the thing is, after the Genocide, you had such different versions being wiped out either because: 1-the people bearing and transmitting this oral memory got slaughtered before this memory being written down [sad thing being, just before the Genocide, a movement was taking place to record folk traditions, be it tales, music, etc, that got acked with the killings and all...] 2- [continuation in the next message AGAIN orz]
>>183810682-after the genocide, the few intellectuals that were miraculously alive had to organise those survivors; a lot of literature is available about this topic, about the hardships & all, but to come back to our topic, basically, they had to infuse within those survivors (read, orphans traumatised by whatever they saw) a feel of dignity & national pride, & educate them about the Armenian Cause etc; problem is, in such situations, you tend to make stuff the cleanest & smoothest as possible, & myths do not escape to this rule. So, you transmit such tales a bit modified, keeping the "based" stuff & all, removing some details that are not so complying to the National Narrative, you know yourself...on the other side, within Soviet Armenia, a different path, but again, a bit annoying: first, remove whatever is nationalistic (Stalin and others), then, WW2, propaganda-pumped narratives (under the control of the Party ofc, so not too nationalist please), then, USSR oblige, make the national narrative fit the Soviet one (=remove whatever is Christian-related as much as possible, Marxist approach of class fight etc), & then, end 80's, with progressive collapse of USSR, we go to the Balkan-like Nationalistic extreme ("God is Serb" & all of those things that just makes you want to commit stuff that are not Jesus-friendly, to say it with humour...). Now, we are here, the scholars in Armenia have grown up in this atmosphere (where also btw, it's really hard to criticise previous views because "He WaS aN eXpErT hOw DaRe YoU" kind of mentality ach), while in the diaspora, the few scholars that do speak correctly, to say so, are criticised & frown upon by the majority, something that personally, I do not approve but I understand why that happens and, welp, idk what to do at this point, it's complicated...all of this story to tell you that one has to also take into account the history of research to see the pluses & shortcomings behind them[GOD the word limit orz]
>>18381068>>18381044>>18381098Hello, it's interesting to have an archaeologist here. To be frank with you, I personally had no idea how the Armenian genocide might affect your historiography, and I'm a little lost in what you're telling me. If I understand correctly, a lot of material was lost after this genocide?
>>18381046Great. We can contact each other by email, and I honestly would recommend you if you don't cast pearls before swine here. I'm not putting myself in a superior position to anyone here, no, but it just so happens that we've had enough experience with mentally retarded trolls here, and your well-researched threads would attract people like that insect that pretends to be everyone>It is difficult to interpret ⟨Aram⟩ as an Indo-Iranian loan when we should see ˣ⟨Eram⟩ instead. The answer might be schwebeablaut or a zero-grade. I.e., *h2(e)rh1-mó- > ⟨Aram⟩ (since Armenian gives -CaC- for *-CHC-). This can be refined further with *h2(o)rh1-mó- since *h2e should normally give Armenian ˣ⟨ha-I believe there's nothing I can contribute at this point, and it makes me question how much of what's called "Iranian loans" is actually Iranian. This myth is definitely not true; we have parallels in the Indic and possibly Welsh>>18380903 so it's fair to assume we're dealing with a PIE myth, but it's a shame that no one has actually investigated this and published a paper>Then suddenly the resemblance to ⟨Rōma⟩ becomes more apparentWhat do you think of the river hypothesis? Tiber was known as Rūmōn, and it is said that the city of Rome is likely named after the river . The connection with the Greek "rheîn" (ῥεῖν, "to flow") is considered unlikely due to the form and historical context.
>>18381136>What do you think of the river hypothesis? Tiber was known as Rūmōn, and it is said that the city of Rome is likely named after the river .It's certainly something to keep in mind. Would Indo-European migrants really name a town for mythological reasons?Or would the name rather be a reference to dark dirt or something?Still, the river hypothesis has drawbacks. ⟨Rōma⟩ is not expected according to regular Latin sound changes. Compare with Greek:*sréu̯mn̥ > ῥεῦμα "stream"I checked my chart and *#sr- is not lost in Latin. Apparently it gives ⟨fr-⟩. This can be solved with s-mobile, however.The diphthongs *eu̯ and *ou̯ yield Latin ⟨ū⟩, not ⟨ō⟩.The only way to get around this is to appeal to an unknown IE language that isn't Latin. It's not ideal.It's possible. I would like to see more examples of substrate words from this hypothetical non-Latin language. Otherwise the suggestion is problematic.
>>18381170Certainly. Regarding this supposed substrate, it's often said to be Etruscan, but I don't particularly believe that. From what I understand, the reasons some argue it's a loanword are the non-systematic alternation of sounds (Rō- and Rū-), common in loanwords, and a certain difficulty in pronouncing words from different languages, leading to distinct adaptations. But I found these arguments weak, honestly. It's said to be "Etruscan".
>>18381046I have never heard of a theory that posits that the branches of Indo-European developed into separate languages before the diaspora.
thoughts?
>>18380468>Sanasaaaaaarrr>the founder of the dynasty of heroeskek do armenoids really?
>>18381325They broke into dialects with shared innovations before forming the individual proto-languages that can be reconstructed (like Proto-Germanic or Proto-Italic). It becomes obvious when studying charts like the one on this page:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ThaesOfereode/Indo-European_sound_correspondencesYou may have heard of a hypothetical Graeco-Armenian branch before. This was probably nothing more than late PIE with a few dialectal innovations.
>>18380468I have no idea what you're talking about can you speak English when you're in a place like 4chan.
>>18381347>>18381386Retard
Do you guys have an account on Xiter? I'm sure I saw one of you beating up an Indian guy, and the profile picture was of a guy with Ozti's picture.
>>18380789>h2reh1mo- vs *h2erǵ-Sources???
>>18381046I hope this is the last time I have to talk about the technicalities of ⟨Aram⟩ but I found that the word most similar to it would be ⟨armukn⟩ < *h2orH-m- (with coloring of unaccented *o by *h2).The PIE word for "arm" is problematic. Some forms reflect a full-grade and others a zero-grade, but this is entirely unexpected for the suffix *-mo- since it's just an o-stem, and root ablaut is not part of the inflectional paradigm. The root vocalism can only differ in this context due to some degree of independent derivations (or word creations).An important detail is that ⟨armukn⟩ shows no sign of the internal laryngeal (ˣ⟨aramukn⟩). If we accept that this laryngeal was lost due to the Saussure effect *h2orH-mó-, then it is not plausible to trace ⟨Aram⟩ back to *h2orh1-m-. Only *h2rh1-m- will work.Why would only Armenian have a zero-grade though? Either it was an independent derivation or there's something fishy about this word ⟨Aram⟩ itself. Is it possible we should be blaming Movsēs Xorenacʿi for taking some creative license with the original word? It wouldn't be the only word he appears to have mangled.
>>18381409
>>18381409I think we've come full circle. As true as it is that Armenian had a regular borrowing process that would have turned a foreign Rāma into ˣ⟨Eram⟩, but what if the foreign word was something different? I've ignored Wiktionary up till now, but look what it says:>According to Perixanjan, from Middle Median *Arām, from Old Iranian *Rāma-https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D4%B1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%B4#Old_ArmenianIf Median had its own vowel epenthesis that gave *A- then nothing stands in the way of Armenian borrowing this word from Median specifically. (Are Median borrowings common though?)I will also note that ⟨Aram⟩ as a common personal name is easily attributable to Christianization as it can come from from Classical Syriac ܐܕܡ (ʼĀḏām, “Adam”). It also seems plausible that Movsēs Xorenacʿi renamed some mythological character after the Biblical Adam.The word is a mess. Little is certain about it formally.
>>18381411>>18381409I knew itThis thread is full of shitIranian borrowing its over
>>18381399What's ur point anyway?
>>18381432How They called themselves
>>18381117Hello hello again; I understand a bit why you could be lost desu, a lot of info that were synthesised at 2 am of the morning, not very optimal...but yeah, naturally, a lot of evidence was lost because of the Genocide; may it be material evidence such as texts/manuscripts, architectural features, ie churches (destroyed-dynamited in the decades following the Genocide, or stones reused in building homes for the new settlers of the emptied areas, mostly kurds), or may it be immaterial culture, such as folk traditions, dances, songs, musics, legends etc; and when you know that the latter can preserve much information about past societies, particularly if the people perpetuating those traditions were (nearly) entirely isolated, then you can see what kind of havoc this bloody event broke...moreover, another problem is what we may call the bottleneck effect. The name is taken from genetic studies, but we can apply it in anthropological fields too (not the first time a natural-science concept is applied in anthro-archeology btw). thing is, if the majority of people got exterminated, you still have some survivors; now, those survivors will transmit, to a certain degree, their knowledge and folktales etc. Problem is, they will be the *only ones* to transmit *their* cultures to the remaining survivors & upcoming gens. See the perverse side of the effect?and as I was searching for an image to illustrate my point (cf. attached figure), I (re)found out about the founder effect, which is also complementary to the bottleneck effect, particularly in this situation where you did have mass migration...
>>18381658PS- funny to see that the abbreviation for "to be honest (t b h)" got replaced by "desu"
