Was America actually stolen? Every document I read says the Brits bought America from various native tribes who do not exist as one unified people but rather fought each other. The original native American population when the Brits arrived is the same number as it is today. And most of america was unoccupied empty land when the settlers arrived. I see countless examples of treaties and settlers buying land. But there are only a few random notes about settlers attacking natives rather than any evidence of a coordinated extinction effort. 90% of native american deaths were due to disease but their population already bounced back to what it was before the settlers arrived, in the modern day. Plus they get extra legal benefits for being native that other americans do not get.According to the declaration of independence itself, the natives were allegedly the aggressors most of the time.Lol.
When the brits first arrived, the number of natives total was around 10M, which is how many natives are in America today.They got along well and had thanksgiving and even made deals for the land. Most of the land was empty, and each tribe was a separate entity that fought other tribes.Then most natives died to disease, and there is no evidence of a coordinated attack. And then allegedly the natives started attacking the settlers lol.
>>18390792>Was America actually stolen?Conceptually, from the perspective of the US, the land cannot be stolen because there's no acknowledged institution certifying and enforcing amerindian ownership of the land.If you wanted to instead appel to natural law, it would be easier to argue both conquest and possession than ownership, due to the fight that western colonization happened after multiple waves of "native" conquest and extermination of the previous population.A further argument to be made is that even if you acknowledge the rights of whoever was dispossessed by the US (or their heirs), that still would just make the US also illegal, but it would do nothing to make the horde of central andsouth american immigrants legal, nevermind the somalians and anyone else getting deported by ice.
>>18390792No gold is illegal. In the hands of gold vulture.
>>18390792The legal crime of Theft can only be committed by individuals and organizations within a sovereign state. One state cannot steal from another state. An individual cannot steal or have stolen from a state that no longer exists. A state is not sovereign if there are individuals or groups within it that wield more power than that state. In that case, those individuals are sovereign.
>>18390827>The legal crime of TheftOpinion discarded.
>>18390832Natural law doesn't exist
>>18390792If the land is "stolen" then why does she think the American Indians would be okay with their land being flooded by the entire world?
Andrew Jackson explicitly stole land from the natives, they had a deal but before he was elected for president he had spent his life going out of his way to steal more land breaking the prior negotiated agreements.He always gets a pass for this on the list of worst presidents simply because he did it before he was elected.
>>18390792Speaking only for Michigan and what used to be known as "Upper Canada"; I would say no. By the time Europeans put a real foothold in the area (beyond the simple lone traders); the native population was already on a social cycle which would have rendered them extinct on their own by (in my opinion) roughly 1937.Though most of their collapse could be attributed to the introduction of alcohol, there were also environmental issues (such as multi-year string of early/late winters which killed most of the crops and many/most of the animal population. I release that a lot of the 'stolen land' talking points come from the claim that the natives were allowed (by their moral code) to sell land. But that was easily worked around in the 1800's land sales by making it, instead, a series of mutual gifts. So:> the native chiefs agree to give a certain amount of land to the europeans because they're such good friends> in exchange for which the europeans agree to give certain gifts to the native tribes because they are such good friends.A sign of the decay of native civilization can be read in the State Papers of Canada, where there are long discussions about the problem. Each year, the Euro's were giving each tribal member a set of cloths, a new set of tools, and enough gunpower and shot to hunt food for the entire year.There was talk about just giving them money (instead of going through the hassle of having to count up how many outfits, etc), but the time they tried it the money was gone (swindled or drank away) within days of them receiving it, and the tribal families started to starve in the winter until provided more supplies by the euros
>>18390927correction: Extinct by 1837
Has anyone defined non-stolen land?Where the same people have been living in the same area since time immemorial?
>>18390881>The land was stolen by outsiders>Therefore EVERYONE COME ON IN!!! WELCOME TO AMERICA!!!Lol.
>>18390951There is no such thing and everyone knows this.Palestine was "stolen" over 15 times in history.Also it is crazy to say that just because whites moved here when someone else was living here it means now everyone else should move here too lol.
>>18390792I don't get why Americans can't just admit their ancestors fucked over the Natives, hard. Whites almost completely eradicated Native culture and language, displaced them, and basically racially replaced them.
>>18390976This really grinds my gears.Whites?It was literally just Britian.The rest of the whitez did not arrive until after slavery ended.
>>18390976It was ONLY the brits. Stop saying whites. That is propaganda lol.
>>18390973>Also it is crazy to say that just because whites moved here when someone else was living here it means now everyone else should move here too lol.>whites come to a place with brown natives>complain that brown people are there>whites force black people into said place>complain that black people are there>whites let in immigrants from every corner of the globe>complain that immigrants are theremight as well blame your own ancestors for leaving Europe
>>18390976Have the Chinese ever admitted that their ancestors fucked over Europeans hard? The black death almost completely eradicated Europe. It was the deadliest disease in European history. And it was a Chinese virus.
>>18390976Do you agree with the statement "no one is illegal on stolen land", yes or no?
>>18390987that was the mongols/turkschinks did nothing wrong
>>18390999The Bubonic plague started in China during 1330 before spreading westward.What do the Mongols and Turks have to do with it?
>>18390976>I don't get why Americans can't just admit their ancestors fucked over the NativesThis is not a controversial statement. We know the Indians got fucked but to say their land was stolen is just circulating inaccurate misinformation.
>>18390792The real NATIVE AMERICANS are Spaniards. They arrived in America 5000 years before those asians (the fake native americans).If there was more funding done to archaeological sites in the NE of NorthAmerica they would find many more evidencies. Spaniards discovered America 2 times. The second time in 1492 was a visit to see how things were going on.
>>18390792Might makes right. The savages lost and they need to get over it.
>>18390792This is a map of all the indian tribes that never ceded their land officially in a treaty to the United States as determined by the Indian Claims Commission
>>18390976They fucked them up and kicked their ass, but it wasn't illegal.It's kind of embarrassing to say that you lost so hard it wasn't fair, isn't it?
>>18391099And this is a map of all the indian tribes that are still living in America with extra legal benefits, (they are basically their own micronations) lol
>>18391099Your map makes the Sioux territory look really big, right on top there that big area. But there were under 50,000 Sioux when the settlers arrived, that means like 99% of that Sioux land was unoccupied lol.
>>18391099Misleasing because it implies most of America was already full.This is misinfo because the territories and borders here are massive, and millions of people live in each region today but only a few thousand were living there at the time lol.
>>18390980British and the Spanish
>>18391120Okay yeah and the Spanish stole Mexico too and bred with their women but nobody complains about that because they "took it back" not really, but they all still proudly speak Spanish the language of their thieves.Anyways, the rest of Europe arrived after slavery was already over. The meaning of White depends who you ask.To some people white means, Jews, Hispanic, French, Russian, Ukranian, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, German, Italian, Greek, Portuguese, British, Irish, Scottish, etc.But only the brits and spanish and some french stole Americas and only the brits and jews owned slaves in america, not all whites. Lol.
>>18391122White only makes sense in America where everyone has mixed ancestry and little to no cultural ties to where they are from. Heck the idea of white meaning anything more than Anglo-Saxon didn't even start until after desegregation and was pushed by a literal Grand Wizard of the KKK. It was his way to try and further isolate blacks in America.
Do any of you see natives in your daily lives very often?The media pushes this idea natives used to fill the entire lands, and they all got wiped out and blotted out.But there are exaxtly as many natives in America today as there were when the settlers first arrived. So statistically, the sight of a native American then was as common as it is now. They never filled the nation to the brim. And each native tribe was its own people, they were not one unified people who was mass eradicated. Lol.
>>18391137Any attempt to have a head count of the Natives is just guess work. There is no census or written record to go by. Generally historians think there were roughly 50-100 million Indians spread across both North/South America. Also from first hand accounts from the earliest Europeans the east coast was brimming with natives. Disease killed something like 70-80% of the native populations.
>>18391141Supposing there were 100M which itself is still guesswork in the opposite direction, the natives were separate tribes that did not get along with each other, and not one people, and so the notion the land was stolen implies that it was okay for the natives to take land from each other, and that is not theft when one tribe takes it from another tribe, but it is theft when conquerers take it from a tribe, and the bought land is just disregarded as insigificant. And the fact natives are basically given legal sanctuaries where they can still practice tribal court is also ignored. And somehow all of this means that it is somehow okay for even more foreigners to invade because now no one is illegal? Lol.
>>18391147Random pop star comment is just her making a calculated stance to maintain popularity. The Indian Reservations would be an argument if those were roughly associated with their ancestral land, but it's mostly we found the worst land we could find and stuck them there. There are always winners/losers in conflicts for land, but lets not pretend they have some sweet deal. The reservations are some of the most impoverished areas in America. Like Africa where small time thugs take control of small time resources and keep everyone down, just in this case its casinos.
>>18391154What does it mean to "steal" land?I think that is what most people got angry about. Do the natives really "own" the land, or is their "ownership" as valid as their army is powerful?When they stole land from one another was that also stealing too? They were separate people there is not one people called native american. They were separate tribes like how USA and Canada are separate.The communists "stole" China from the Republic which stole it from the Dynasty. Lol.
>>18390980>It was literally just Britian.>>18390983>It was ONLY the britsName ONE example of BRITAIN doing that, rather than AMERICA
>>18391160No clue. How long does it take for a people to be "native" to a land? One side of my family has been here over 300 years. I've always hated the idea of "indigenous" or the use of it anyways. It is only ever used for non-white people and more specifically people from the Americas. No one describes a random bloke from London as an Indigenous Englishman. Is Marine Le Pen an Indigenous Frenchwoman?
>>18391161I mean racially.Modern libs blame "Whites" for slavery and wiping out the natives.But the only people who fought natives and owned slaves were almost entirely racially British.Someone who is Swedish living in America today does not owe reperations for his ancestors. His ancestors were not even in America when the land was "stolen" or during slavery.Lol.
>>18391161Well if you want to be technical, THAT "America" is not the same as this America today. They also allowed slavery and our America does not. Lol.
>>18391170This comment would make sense if the 'Native Americans' and 'African Americans' weren't pretty much all part white
>>18391141Don't we have archeological records?If there were any cities in North America that were comparable to Technochitlan Qusqu or Machu Picchu we would know about them
No one is ILLEGAL on stolen land never made logical sense. So if you steal someone's land, you acquire a right to add as many other thieves to that land as you desire? That's seems wrong. It would be more logical to claim that no one is LEGAL on stolen land. Eg, anyone can be subject to ejection or deportation.
>>18390820Good explanation
>>18390792>Was America actually stolen?no. I've been to America. it's still there.
>>18390843Enjoy hell
By definition, America is a white country in which many non-white people now happen to live
>>18390792Yes, it was stolen. Almost all other countries exist on stolen land as well. This whole performative admission of guilt is just a new form of American exceptionalism and white man's burden ideology. Just instead of saying they are better than everyone, it's pretending to be the inheritors of a unique evil and carrying a burden of this supposedly uniquley awful legacy. The conclusion is still that it gives them special importance and a kind of moral superiority since they are apologetic about it.They should still be very nice to the injuns because they had a rough time and because it's cool that they are preserving cultures that were almost lost, but shit like this doesn't help.
>>18391787nope. 'stolen' means it was there yesterday, but now it's gone because someone took it away in secret. the fuckers who are maniacally preoccupied with finding fault with whites - it's always about whites - did not want to use the word 'conquered' because it has somewhat better, even romantic connotations. but there is no such thing as stealing land.
>>18390980>>18390983this is bad news for me. now I have to go fork over my NEETbucks to the local reservation.>>18390985in the 17th century people just wanted to get away from the strong arm of the pope and now they're paying dearly for it.
>>18390792>we could be torturin and cannibalizin an sheeit >but white people ruined it :(
>>18391955White christians invented the most obscene forms of torture and their religion is based on cannibalizing their god.
>>18390792North America was virtually empty when Europeans arrived. It had lower population density than Mongolia or Western Sahara today do.
>>18390792The arguement leftists make is retarded. If they think its stolen then they should find the orginial owners and leave themselves, not bring in more people to exploit the "stolen" land
>>18392026Where can I get that good shit Dobyns has in his waterpipe
>fuck having borders and security and not being a third world country n sheeit>because 200 years ago one tribe (not my tribe) stole land from another (also not my tribe, I live 100s of miles to the south, I am nahua not apache or comanche), o algo..why do leftists have the shittiest arguments which seemingly gain traction despite being absolute bull
>>18390827>I'm a parasite.
>>18392394White people aren't parasites, they're apex predators
>>18392394Replacement via mass immigration is the perfect analogue to parasitism. Conquest and displacement is more akin to predation.
>>18391963you tell 'em, Rabbi!
