Why does the doctrine of predestination cause so much seething from catholics and liberals alike?
>>18400265It makes the reincarnation and mission of Christ entirely pointless, if everyone that will exist was already elected for either salvation of damnation before the Universe was even created. For what or who Christ died then?
>>18400291This and it's basically Judaism (for non-jews), because it says there's a spiritual master race that will be saved no matter how depraved they are (jews), while the rest (goyim) won't be saved, no matter how virtuous and devoted they are. Christianity is based on free will and working to earn salvation, not free handouts for le chosen people. My question to Protestants would be; if you love reinventing and justifying jewish theology this much, why join splinter sects, instead of converting to original Judaism instead?
>>18400291>For what or who Christ died then?It sealed the new covenant and marked the next stage of revelation, in which gentiles would know God's word and become part of Israel. That doesn't mean everyone will become part of the elect and I don't see the contradiction.>>18400297>because it says there's a spiritual master race that will be saved no matter how depraved they are (jews), while the rest (goyim) won't be saved, no matter how virtuous and devoted they areThat's not what Judaism teaches as far as I know.
>>18400265It's either incredibly transparently wrong and so tautologically true as to be meaningless.
>>18400332>sealed the new covenant and marked the next stage of revelation, in which gentiles would know God's word and become part of IsraelSo everyone of the elected existed only after Christ came to Earth? Or do they existed before too?
>>18400373They existed before too. God just changed the merit by which one is defined as part of the elect.
>>18400412So if the elected were saved anyway before Christ what was the point of Christ's mission? He didnt saved anyone that was destined to be saved anyway, so he was useless
>>18400638You seem to draw the conclusion that; if Predestination is true then nothing matters and God should just annul Creation.
>>18400656Yes. Hence why predestination is absurd in its core, aside maybe specific individual with a specific divine goal like the prophets or Christ himself
>>18400265>Why does the doctrine of predestination cause so much seethingBecause it boils down to the question of human free will and the will of God.Calvin believes that it is zero-sum. If God is omnipotent then you cannot have the power to make yourself one of the elect. Grace is something that humans have no influence over.Arminius (and Wesley) believe that all people are offered salvation. People accept or reject that based on their free will. There's no such thing as zero-sum because the infinite grace of God is something we can participate in.>>18400297>it's basically Judaism (for non-jews), because it says there's a spiritual master race that will be saved no matter how depraved they are (jews), while the rest (goyim) won't be savedNot really. Calvin was operating in a framework that purposely avoided Judaizing. Jews believe in free will and reward and punishment according to works. Now they also believe that they have more connection to God because they are fundamentally better at adhering to the what God expects. So they believe that punishment happens to them for bad deeds, but they have much more concern for their in-group. Anyone can be rewarded but not if they go directly against Israel.That's why Aminius and Wesley were accused of being Judaizers so much.>>18400669>predestination is absurd in its coreIt makes more sense as a social/hierarchical tool for policing behaviors and outcomes and not a literalistic doctrine. The insinuation is that there will be various signs as to whether someone is elect or not. There will then be a lot of downstream effects in society, sometimes reasonable, sometimes not. A pretty obvious one would be people like the Puritans who were English Calvinists and when left to their own devices got obsessed with routing out witches by their signs.
>>18400265Because it is unbiblical and unchristian.
>>18400265>from catholicsIt denies good work and personal effort can save you>liberals In their naive, abstract concept of "equality", predestination means some people are just better/superior than the others
>>18400265Who’s to say we don’t have free agency and our time on Earth isn’t a moral test for Salvation? Calvinists irk me because they assume God can’t trust his creations.
Test
It tells men that God is in control and not them. It denies their grandiose delusions and puts them in their place. The same thing happened in John 8:31-38
>>18400291If you think this is an objection to Calvinism, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about
Ok, there is so much ignorance of the doctrines of grace in this thread that it needs to be explained. What follows is not an argument for our doctrines, only the doctrines themselves which need to be understood before they could be accepted or rejected.Firstly, we hold that God is completely sovereign over all things in time, so that nothing happens besides what God intended. And a distinction is to be made between this plan and the actual events of time, just as my planning to have eggs tomorrow is distinct from my actually having eggs tomorrow. The difference between God’s plans and man’s plans is that what God plans and intends to occur actually does occur in every case. This sovereign plan of God we call the divine decrees.And it is not God’s decree which impedes man’s freedom, for we maintain that Adam was totally free (not so free as to nullify the decrees of God, which freedom no creature either does or could have, since it is irreconcilable with the nature of God whose plans stand indestructible) but what has caused man to lose his freedom and become bound is original sin which has corrupted his nature and defaced the image of God. So it is not that man “could not choose to be elect”, so much as man could not either override or determine the divine decree, since he does not even exist apart from it. And because the eternal decrees are distinct from their fulfillment in time, while there are some who were predestined to eternal life and some who were predestined to eternal death, nevertheless none were justified because of the decree of election and none were condemned because of the decree of reprobation. The sole ground of the reprobate’s damnation is his sins and acts of negative merit whereby he deserves to suffer the wrath of God, and the sole ground of the elect’s salvation is the life and death of Christ in his place whereby his every sin is totally punished on the cross and he now stands before God by His foreign righteousness.
>>18402024(cont.)Now, it was therefore necessary to fulfill the decree of election that the Son of God, according to the eternal pactum salutis of the divine Trinity in which He resolved to glorify Himself through the salvation of a particular people, should be born as a man under the law, though not a son of Adam, keep the whole law, and suffer the full penalty which was against God’s people, so that their sin being imputed to Him and His righteousness being imputed to them, they now stand utterly righteous and holy before God, having fulfilled every demand of the law in His sight, and may therefore enter His presence. As mankind died in Adam, since he broke the covenant of works which he had with God, therefore Jesus fulfilled the demands of the covenant of works, so that all who believe in Him enter a covenant of grace with God by Him.All who believe will be saved. There are not some who believe and are saved and some who believe and are not saved, but Christ died so that “whosoever believes would not perish but have eternal life”. But if one believes it is not because they of their own free will chose to, since man in his soul is stark dead and unable to rise unless both his chains are broken and he is given life, for “those who are in the flesh cannot do what is pleasing to God” and therefore if salvation was left to man, not one would be saved. Everyone who believes only believes because the Holy Spirit granted him the gift of faith and raised him from the dead. Nor is this faith itself the ground or virtue of his justification, it is in no sense the condition of the covenant (which was entirely fulfilled by Christ), but only the divine instrument by which he apprehends the imputation of the merits of Christ, so we say the sinner is justified by faith alone, that is, by the imputation of the merits of Christ alone.
>>18402024>nothing happens besides what God intended>The sole ground of the reprobate’s damnation is his sins and acts of negative merit whereby he deserves to suffer the wrath of God
>>18400265>Epic beard man>Protestant EditionNope, it's still cringe.
>>18402093>I choose my theology exclusively on whether the theologian in question has a beard or not
>>18402093Maybe this fine clear-faced gentleman will b more your speed.
>>18402122>OH N-
>>18402092Yes.
>>18402093Got bad news for you, every reformer besides Zwingli and Bucer was an epic beard man
