A thread for lovers of the history of Czechoslovakia. I am the author of the Pandora's Box project (www.pandorinaskrinka.sk), where I research the modern history of Czechoslovakia. On this platform I want to look for topics that interest you or that you do not understand.So to begin with: Is there anyone here who is interested in Czechoslovakia?
stolen German land
>>18408185Stolen german womb.
>>18408182This is not the right place to ask, miss. There are only a handful of sane people around.
>>18408185That's Poland
>>18408182Yes I'm interested in your opinion on what were the relations between the Rusyn/Ukrainians and the Czech like. I know the conflict between Rusyn/Slovaks but what were the Czech opinions on the people of subcarpathia.
>>18408416I don't know exactly which conflict you're talking about. There is no conflict going on at the moment. Carpathian Ruthenia was once part of Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia was made up of Bohemia and Moravia (the so-called Czech lands), Slovakia and Carpathian Ruthenia. There was no conflict between the Czech lands and Carpathian Ruthenia. In 1939 there was a conflict between the Czech lands and Slovakia, which eventually resulted in Slovakia declaring independence. But the conflict between the Czech lands and Slovakia was not military and was rather the result of the Munich Agreement, during which Czechoslovakia lost so much territory that it gradually began to disintegrate.
>>18408416I think you meant the conflict between Hungary and Carpathian Ukraine. There were no conflicts between Czechs, Slovaks and the local population there.
>>18408416There is currently no ongoing conflict between Slovakia and Ukraine. Currently, Slovakia is one of the supporters of Ukraine in the war with the Russian Federation.In the past, during World War II, Slovakia participated in a military attack on the territory of today's Ukraine (then part of the Soviet Union) as an ally of the armies of the German Empire. Slovak units were welcomed by the Ukrainians as liberators, because during Stalin's rule, people suffered from famine. However, when the German armies began to terrorize the population, Slovak units were demoralized. Soldiers went over to the Soviet side. And although Slovak units were initially very successful against the Red Army, the morale of the troops gradually decreased and eventually Slovak soldiers were withdrawn. The return of demoralized soldiers from the Eastern Front was one of the prerequisites for the emergence of the Slovak National Uprising, in which the army attempted a military coup in 1944.
>>18408472It is a little-known local event. In Slovakia, it is called the "Homolov Putsch". Czechoslovak military units overthrew the government of Jozef Tiso. It was an attempt by General Eliáš to prevent the collapse of the republic that was imminent after the Munich Agreement.
>>18408461I think anon was referring to the arguments about the extent of "Slovakia" and "Subcarpathia".Prešov, Humenné and the whole NE mountain chain connecting them were thoroughly Ruthenian and IIRC the First Republic did have to manage that as a point of contention. Alongside the whole issue of integrating Ruthenians into Czechoslovak society, manning the schools and public office buildings (again going off of my memory, this was largely served by Czech inteligentsia much like in Slovakia due to the sheer lack of educated folks to cover the needs of public education and bureaucracy), degrees of their autonomy, etc.
>>18408416I have an interview on the website with a soldier who defected to the Soviet side because he didn't agree with what the German soldiers were doing in Ukraine.The article is in Slovak, but Google translator works:https://www.pandorinaskrinka.sk/spomienky-seflekara-2-cs-paradesantnej-brigady-alexandra-rehaka/
>>18408494Oh, I see. Unfortunately, I don't know much about the Ruthenians in Slovakia and Subcarpathian Ruthenia. The only thing I know is that František Krištof Veselý (a popular Slovak singer) sang a march about Subcarpathian Ruthenia. It's called "Verkhovyna".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQSP8hJo-Jw
>>18408494>IIRC the First Republic did have to manage that as a point of contention.... whether to recognise that territory as a part of Slovakia and treat its inhabitants as Czechoslovaks (fully capable of understanding each other) or part of Subcarpathia and its inhabitants as Ruthenians (a spillover ethnicum from further east, mutually not intelligible with Czechoslovak, promised a degree of political autonomy from the rest of the republic).See "Krajinská hranica medzi Slovenskom a Podkarpatskou Rusou a jejodraz v interetnických vzťahoch (1919–1939)" by Peter Švorc
>>18408182Has there been any proper historian response to "Choosing Slovakia: Slavic Hungary, the Czechoslovak Language and Accidental Nationalism."The main thesis of the work is that Slovak ethnicity (on a grander scale beyond intelligentsia) was created by the First Republic through the segregationist education. TL;DR: For the great majority of people in the area, std. Czech and std. Slovak were equally understandable but non-native languages so outside of a very small selection of villages, most people would not object to learning exclusively Czech in the whole state. On top of that, in teaching these people std. Slovak, they instantly faced a wall in being denied certain professions (requiring perfect Czech they were denied in school) in the more developed Bohemia, thus forming a separate intelligentsia which was contained to the area where std. Slovak was taught and thus pursuing their own goals within it. Goals that, a few generations later, resulted in the state falling apart with two now fully separate ethnic groups.Now I fully agree with the theory but I'd still like to know if it generated any response in Czech/Slovak historical circles or if it simply never got any time in the spotlight.Bonus points if you could point me in the direction of any modern theories of local ethnogenesis, assuming any research into that has been done with academia being exposed to modern historical research rather than living off of peak nationalist narratives (we-wuzzing Great Moravia) or communist narratives (stop asking comrade student).
>>18408530It's very interesting. Here in Slovakia, no one thinks about it like that. And you're right that thanks to the Slovak language, Slovaks were actually disadvantaged in the Czech lands.British historian Robert William Seton-Watson in his book "Slovakia Then and Now" says that the Slovak population was practically illiterate. Higher education could only be obtained in the Hungarian language. That's why many people of Slovak origin were considered Hungarians. And it is questionable whether these people perceived themselves as Slovaks or as Hungarians or as residents of Austria-Hungary.You're right that the literacy of Slovaks was built by establishing schools with Slovak as the language of instruction, where Czech teachers taught. Seton-Watson literally says that Slovakia is a successful "cultural project of post-war Europe".Masaryk's original plan was probably to create a unified nation with a unified language (Czech), because Štefánik also conceived the Kiev Note in this spirit:"The Czechs and Slovaks, being aware that they are closely linked to each other by both vital interests and culture, and namely by blood ties, wish to develop into a unified, political, indivisible and free nation, under the auspices and protection of the Quadruple Agreement."However, a part of the Slovak intelligentsia abroad, mainly in the USA, opposed this. This political part was noisy enough to assert its own language, and Masaryk had to respect it. Although it ultimately disadvantaged the Slovaks themselves.Thank you for this suggestion. It is interesting to explore this.
These guys adventure was beautiful and soulful and I am glad it ended up relatively ok (until that teutonic barbarian ruined everything for almost 70 years)
>>18409556>and I am glad it ended up relatively okWhich is ironically quite a miracle in its own right. Remember that the Czechoslovak Legions were Russophiles in opposition to the creation of Czechoslovakia.Their primary goal was to fight on the side of the Russian Empire and, once the Entente defeated Austria-Hungary, ask the tsar to rule over everything from Uzhhorod to Karlovy Vary.The massacre of the entire Romanov bloodline by the revolutionaries in Russia tore their plan apart and it was only then that they agreed to contact and coordinate with the Western-oriented and pro-democracy movement based in France.Guys almost doomed us all.
>>18409457>However, a part of the Slovak intelligentsia abroad, mainly in the USA, opposed this.Any names? I assume these were turbo-radical people who had to flee AH once the secret service took a whiff of their anti-Habsburg rhetoric.Especially since most Slovak emigrees were from eastern Slovakia and usually completely illiterate. So it would be surprising if it was something born of the "the masses" living there and not a personal vendetta/project of a small clique of people with a very specific background.
>>18409576>Their primary goal was to fight on the side of the Russian Empire and, once the Entente defeated Austria-Hungary, ask the tsar to rule over everything from Uzhhorod to Karlovy Vary.Dangerously based.
And more broadly for Czechoslovak history. Did anyone speak out against the expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia on account of just how crippling it is for an economy to dump 2-3 million educated taxpayers overboard?How were immediate post-war economics anyway? Would it be realistic for the German-speaking Czechs to stay in Czechoslovakia long enough for travel bans to take hold or was it easy to hop over into Communist Germany and they'd likely emigrate there anyway given how decrepit Sudetes would become thanks to the Iron Courtain?
Why was glass industry so strong in Czechoslovakia?
>>18409576Sorry, but this is historical nonsense. The Czechoslovak Legions were under French command (Gen. Maurice Janin) from 1918 and became part of the Allied armies. There was no great division between the Bolsheviks and the right-wing Russian units (there were several local leaders, one of them being Admiral Kolchak) in the violence they committed against civilians. The British chose Kolchak and began to support him. They tried to use the Czechoslovak Legions in conjunction with Kolchak's troops to defeat the Bolsheviks, which failed because the legionnaires did not have a right-wing mindset.One of the legionnaires described the situation in Russia as follows:“On the one hand, luxury, debauchery, on the other, poverty and hunger. When I looked at the spontaneous hatred of the streets against the uniformed representatives of yesterday’s tsarist government, I was not surprised by the excesses that the people committed against them. (…) Enthusiasm, jubilation, demonstrations, fraternization, promises, slogans, speeches on every street corner, a kind of festive mood among everyone without distinction, the formation of all kinds of committees, the preparation of new elections, the declaration of universal suffrage!”The Czechoslovak soldiers wanted nothing more than to get home. The war was over and the West had no solution to the Siberian intervention. One of the Czechoslovak legionnaires wrote the following verse in his diary, which reflects the despair of the legionnaires:“The Japanese promises, the American gives,Semenov takes, Trotsky only laughs,The Englishman nods, the Frenchman looks,The Slovak and the Czech dream of help.”General Janin did not respect the plans of some influential Western politicians (for example, W. Churchill) and took steps to allow the legionnaires to return to their homeland at any cost. (The nascent Czechoslovakia needed an army to maintain its borders.) This ruined his career in the French army.
>>18409985Bola to slovenská inteligencia združená v organizácií Slovenská liga v Amerike. Jedným z členov Slovenskej ligy, ktorý pôsobil pri Masarykovi bol napríklad neskorší diplomat Štefan Osuský. https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovensk%C3%A1_liga_v_Amerike
>>18409985In English: It was the Slovak intelligentsia united in the organization Slovak League in America. One of the members of the Slovak League who worked under Masaryk was, for example, the later diplomat Štefan Osuský.https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovensk%C3%A1_liga_v_Amerike
>>18408185>>18408281Fact.>>18409576>>18409997Delusional cringe traitors
>>18410278Glass production is still strong in the Czech Republic. Big glass brands come from there, such as Lasvit or Moser. But I don't know much about the history of glass production. :)
>>18410013I have not studied this topic in detail. From a current moral point of view, the displacement of Germans and Hungarians is unacceptable. The deportations were violent and comparable to what happened to Jews during World War II. Many of them were even of Jewish origin, so they experienced persecution even after the end of the war and the defeat of Nazi ideology.In Slovakia, this topic is repeatedly raised by the Hungarian minority. My personal opinion is that such laws no longer belong in modern Europe. Our countries (the Czech Republic and Slovakia) should discuss this.HOWEVER, I absolutely understand Edvard Beneš's decision after the end of World War II. I do not think that at that time it was possible for the German and Hungarian minorities to live with the Czechoslovaks without conflicts. The proposal for deportation was given to Beneš by the British, who solved ethnic conflicts in the colonies in this way.
>>18408182Does your project also include Communist Czechoslovakia?
>>18408500>This post is for subscribers only
>>18408182I've read Hasek's post-war literature about him telling czechoslovakia citizens how he ate innocent babies during russian civil war.
>>18410719> The Czechoslovak soldiers wanted nothing more than to get home. The war was over and the West had no solution to the Siberian intervention. Common misconception, or you might even say historical falsification if you're a hardcore tankie.In august 1918 the war was far from over and the Czech legion played a major role in propping up the white side. Trotsky offered passage to Archangelsk where there was already an allied expeditionary force; this was rejected. Czech forces which were already in Vladivostok were recalled west and took part in major fighting around Ufa and other places in Central Siberia. The Czechoslovak Legion was a main pillar of the white side, which included plenty of leftwing groups by the way, KOMUCH being one of the more important examples.Janin absolutely 100% intended for the Legion to defeat the Bolsheviks and get Russia back in WW1. I have no doubt the soldiers knew that. Sure, in 1919 the cause was lost, more importantly the whole struggle was pointless due to the Armistice of Compiègne, obviously at that stage they wanted to go home to their newly independent republic and nobody can fault them for this. However in 1918 it was their own decision to embroil themselves in the Russian civil war. Other foreign groups that found themselves stuck on Russian soil after Brest-Litovsk got out just fine by themselves, or decided to fight on the side of the Reds. I don't like the claiming of victimhood here, it detracts from the real heroism, which all sides can agree was displayed by the Legionnaires.
Any book recommendations on Czech or Slovak history of any period? Preferably in English, but I’m willing to consider Slovak books as well as I’ve considered learning the language.
>>18410813Not at the moment. I focus mainly on the formation of Czechoslovakia and then on the existence of the Slovak Republic in the years 1939-45.
>>18410833Yes, you're right. I didn't realize that. You can register if you want. Membership is free and I don't plan on paying for membership. I use this feature of the Ghost platform exclusively to build a community of people who enjoy history. If an article is very controversial, I prefer to make it conditional on registration so that bots and people who don't care about history don't go there.
>>18410860I think that the propaganda of every warring state during the First World War used the story of how the enemy army ate children on its territory. I can't tell you anything about that. In the memoirs of several Czechoslovak legionnaires and General Janin that I read, I didn't find any mention of them having Russian children for dinner.I think that the Czechs prefer "knedlo, vepró, zelo" and the French are even more demanding in the field of gastronomy. :)))
>>18411258This is quite a controversial book, at least in the countries of the former Czechoslovakia:Mary Heimann – “Czechoslovakia: The State That Failed”I haven’t had the chance to read it yet, but I’m planning to. I love it when foreign historians write about us because they have a distance and don’t have an emotional attachment to our past.
>>18411258The level of controversy is determined by the ratings and comments in the largest Slovak bookstore. :)https://www.martinus.sk/348803-czechoslovakia-the-state-that-failed/kniha
>>18410970Thank you for the clarification. I don't have a "big picture" yet about the overall operation of the Czechoslovak legions, because I always start by reading memoirs, which I enjoy more. As for General Janin, I'll allow myself to have a little doubt here. In his memoirs, Janin explicitly doubts whether supporting the White Army is the right thing to do. He fears that because of the terror these units inflicted on civilians, everyone will be hanged after the war, including himself. He hates Kolchak from the bottom of his heart and is unable to negotiate with him. He often shifts these duties to his deputy, Gen. Štefánik. The Czechoslovak legionnaires - ordinary soldiers, did not have right-wing thinking. Their mentality was more social-democratic. Many even supported the revolution. And in the end, they willingly exchanged Kolchak for their way home. :)
