As a philosophy, does Objectivism have any staying power, or will it be remembered a relic of the 20th century?Without predictable ad hom and strawman, what specifically is wrong with it as an influence on US (and world) history, law, and (lack of) religion?
>>18422923Objectivism is an invaluable source of information. We now know women can't be philosophers.
Ayn Rand was basically right when she pointed out how even good causes can become corrupt collectivist cults, however her own gaggle of objectivists ended up a cult.The other criticisms of Ayn Rand are memes and nonsense, she was forced to pay into social security and had reservations about taking money out, yet she was a millionaire who had paid more in taxes than most and dying of lung cancer, there is only slight debatable "hypocrisy" here. Likewise people like to nitpick her understanding of philosophy because she got this or that little irrelevant detail wrong, but otherwise she challenged prevailing philosophy where one must be deliberately subjective and deliberately ambiguous to be considered "intellectual" like pedophile Foucault and pedophile advocate Sartre.
>>18422927>lmao le redpill mgtow, incel gamers rise up, amiriteTreat this seriously, or shut the fuck up
>>18422923>Without predictable ad hom and strawman, what specifically is wrong with it as an influence on US (and world) history, law, and (lack of) religion?It's asocial, even by the standards of the other major death cults.
>>18422949>AsocialExplain. It's perfect compatible with voluntary association.
>>18422942>however her own gaggle of objectivists ended up a cultThat's why The Atlas Society seems decent but the Ayn Rand Institute is dogmatic.
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?'No!' says the man in Washington, 'It belongs to the poor.''No!' says the man in the Vatican, 'It belongs to God.''No!' says the man in Moscow, 'It belongs to everyone.'I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different.I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture.A city where the artist would not fear the censor.Where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality.Where the great would not be constrained by the small!And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city as well.
>>18422951>voluntary associationYou don't choose being born, but it's your choice to not pay child support, you say?
>>18424335I don't follow your logic or your point, anon.
>>18422942>pedophile Foucault and pedophile advocate Sartre>I have a philosophy that says I hate morals and do whatever I want>Also these people were le bad because they did immoral thingsWhy are objectivists like this?
>>18422923Rands ideals are inherently anti-western, and more reminiscent of how Indian bugmen perceive their surroundings. It denies duty, honor, and sacrifice as very real things, and instead strips man down to that of a base atomized animal fueled by nothing more than desire for Mammon and base impulses.
>>18424421>>says I hate morals and do whatever I wantPerhaps you didn't read, anon:>Without predictable ad hom and strawman>>18424432>>anti-western>>reminiscent of Indian bugmen>>base impulses>>denies duty, honor>follows reason, not whims or baseless faith>mandates working hard to achieve a life of purpose, productiveness, and self-esteem>anti-collectivist and aspires to prosper by treating others as honest individuals, trading value for value>pushes people to have moral integrity and deliberately select and live by their values
>>18424437>follows reason, not whims or baseless faithIt’s as dogmatic as any other hard “philosophy”, which inherently demands one has faith. “Pure reason” is not a thing, as intuition and wisdom are needed to provide a holistic understanding of reality. >>anti-collectivist and aspires to prosper by treating others as honest individuals, trading value for valueIs total nonsense as collectives, groups, cultures and villages are formed organically and are completely natural. To deny identification with a collective is to remove an inherent aspect of one’s self and why objectivism is inherently anti-human and anti-western. > pushes people to have moral integrity and deliberately select and live by their values“Selecting one’s values” directly has lead to people atomizing themselves and destroying their bodies and minds with drugs, fatty food and casual sex. Values are deeper, spiritual things that involve a desire for dignity. Collectives help immensely with this.
>>18424446Let's get this straight. Your arguments are:>all philosophies are dogmatic/faith-based and pure reason isn't real, therefore a philosophy focused on reason and objective reality...isn't valid>collectivism (the individual has no value outside of "the common good" and must subjugate their ideals) is unquestionably and automatically good...because people live in a society and society says so>selecting your own values and living to a coherent moral standard is bad because...something, something "atomization" , hedonism, and you need society to tell you what to valueI really hope you're trolling or creatively bumping the thread.
>>18424454>>all philosophies are dogmatic/faith-based and pure reason isn't real, therefore a philosophy focused on reason and objective reality...isn't validYes, because it’s a lie and just a way to market their philosophy, just like how communism markets itself about “equality” when it in reality has nothing to do with that and is in reality just seething ramblings. >collectivism (the individual has no value outside of "the common good" and must subjugate their ideals) is unquestionably and automatically goodNobody said this + you use the most uncharitable and ridiculous idea of “collectives” that nobody actually believes. Collectives are good because they provide a sense of community, belonging, and high values (family, faith, community) with which one has to aspire to and fight for. That does not make every collective good but it does making belonging to a collective desirable, and to deny said need to belong is inherently anti-human and why objectivism leads to misery and debasement of one’s spirit. >selecting your own values and living to a coherent moral standard is badCorrect, everyone needs guidance and letting people just “figure it out” does not work.
>>18424464Yeah, I guess it is trolling then. Thanks for the (You).
who pays for the sidewalks, though? Rand doesn't have answer to real practical questions
>>18424437>>Without predictable ad hom and strawmanThat’s not ad hom and strawman, that’s what egoism is.
>>18424490Objectivism =/= Libertarianism or Anarcho-Capitalism.
>>18424502who pays for the sidewalks?
>>18424502>>18424504is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
>>18424510Okay. But in the real world, we want sidewalks.Who pays for them?Rand just got wishy washy bullshit
>>18424644People pay for them. Whether it's via reasonable taxes or private contractors, it doesn't really matter. Besides overtly supporting laissez-faire capitalism, Objectivism isn't primarily concerned with economics and finance. There's more to consider on aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics...
it’s jewish. QED.
>>18424644objectivism isn't anarchocapitalism, Ayn Rand did not oppose government, rather she presented a moral code by which governments are judged and determine whether men will support them
>>18424733>rather she presented a moral code>She described it as "the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life
>>18424510Men have responsibilities and value things higher than base mammon.
>>18424510>sweat of his brow Sounds like labor value theory to me
>>18424749Does theft bring him happiness? If not, then he has a moral code. If so then he is not following Ayn Rand's tenets.
>>18424653What if I don't wanna pay for the sidewalks, are you going to use FORCE to make me?
>>18424653>metaphysicsDoesn't Rand just assert some kind of "naive materialism", slamming the table and refusing to talk about things outside that scope?This is NOT a philosophy. This does not impress me.
>>18422923>As a philosophy, does Objectivism have any staying power, or will it be remembered a relic of the 20th century?It will be a relic because it's intellectually mediocre>what specifically is wrong with it as an influence on US (and world) history, law, and (lack of) religion?She doesn't manage to bridge the is/ought gap but rather manages to make a transcendental argument for why we value life.Ethical egoism is a meaningless tautology and she doesn't manage to answer the question of the state's legitimacy through it. Furthermore, she argues against strawmanned version of altruism.Lastly capitalism doesn't necessarily follow from her ethical egoist stance.
>>18424815>doesn't manage to answer the question of the state's legitimacy through itlol whut?
>>18424773>your own happiness should be the moral purpose of your life>unless I don’t like itegoists every single time
It's just fucking sillyI don't value your happiness or freedom. I just value mine. Why shouldn't I infringe on yours?
>>18425053>Why shouldn't I infringe on yours?Stability. You can infringe on others, but you're essentially guaranteeing others will infringe on you. It's more rational to pursue, to the best of your ability and the circumstances, mutually beneficial arrangements since that is more conducive to human flourishing than the alternative.
>>18425137What if I don’t care about stability or human flourishing, just my own happiness and I get my kicks by killing people in the street?
>>18425141Then you're a short-sighted, irrational, hedonistic, sadist and your opinions and actions have no impact on Objectivism or why Objectivism is a valuable philosophy.
>>18425167How am I being "irrational" ?I am acting in a way that achieves my goals and desires.
>>18425176It's irrational because it's derived from whim and pursued in ways that inevitably lead to harm.
>>18425187>>your own happiness should be the moral purpose of your life>NO NOT THAT KIND>>18425167Sounds like this godless garbage is completely impotent to condemn it, too.
>>18425167>>18425187All I'm hearing is name-calling and whining that other people like other things than your SUBJECTIVE preferences. "Objectivism" is not a serious philosophy.
>>18425176Reason, and thus, rationality, is an attribute of language. Language only has purpose and meaning when shared. Therefore, all selfishness is irrational, and unreasonable. You will only be able to explain your reasons, and rationalize your intentions, to yourself. So then, what's the point of explaining yourself at all? Why would you need to explain yourself to yourself? Just do what you want like an animal, and keep it to yourself without expressing it in words.
>>18425250Rationality is a property of a creature’s mind.
>>18425253Creatures are made up of cultures. The larger the culture, the more effective the creature.
>>18425250A man castaway on a remote island cannot be rational, lolCLEARLY, I am not using the word rational in that sense, you must be talking about something else this isn't even engaging with the problem, this is just changing the meaning of the words I used to something they didn't mean
>>18424510>is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?Not if you're a wagie, no. Your productivity belongs to the company, all of it.
>>18422923Its how capitalism works. Its how our legal system works. Its how our hospital system works. Its the basis of common sense.Rational self-interested actors pursuing rational outcome.If you dont have self-interest as the driving force of your actions, people look at you funny. Either you're lying and have ulterior motives or you're a saint/Buddha
>>18425631A man cast away on a desert island can't be selfish, because there is no one else there, so the very concept of selfishness does not exist. Why are you avoiding the problem?If you're going to reason in your own mind, why not reason outside yourself, and expand your circle of influence? Hubris leads to nemesis. Deception requires more energy. There are easier ways to accomplish your goals.
>>18425681Rationality got nothing to do with there being other humans around or not
>>18422923It's absolutely correct. Moral systems are just power games.
