How old were you when you realized that the Bible was created by Hellenized Jews?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJqgJ1lTwZ4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNwgTkUx--Q
>>18438450I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that the Ancient Jews were heavily inspired by the Greco-Romans regarding their attitudes towards their God. A good example is the story of Genesis, where in the original translations is more accurately described as God forming the Earth from a per-existing primordial chaos which doesn't like up with modern Ex nihilo creation, because it was largely inspired by the somewhat similar Greco-Roman creation myths
>>18438457Tohu v'bohu. I'd agree that those who've studied it deeply see the Demiurgic aspects in the primeval history, but for the most part people don't see it. And if they see it in Plato they either chalk it up to the logos spermatikos or to Plato reading the Bible.
>>18438450>he thinks the bible is a downstream from hellenism >he doesn't know the first temple mysticism is the basis for presocratics/platonism
>>18438476>And if they see it in Plato they either chalk it up to the logos spermatikos or to Plato reading the Bible.It's a highly unoriginal take and one that has been touted for thousands of years. It makes no sense.
>>18438478>chalk it up to the logos spermatikosNope.>Plato reading the BibleNope. Better luck next time!
>>18438492I forget I'm on a website where anyone can post. So, in your little head, you think that the Greeks managed to stumble onto Jewish mysticism, but somehow the entire Near East, including the Anatolians, Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians, and Persians weren't aware of this? Do you understand anything about cultural diffusion? Or do you just think they had access to some esoterica that no one else did?
>>18438508Answer me this: Is the source material which supplied the ideas of the pre-Socratic philosophers well-attested, or is it shrouded in mystery? Can the surviving remnants of cultures which you've listed tell me about the the culture which supplied Greek philosophy? Surely I needn't recall to you that the pre-Socratic philosophers (which, of course, supplied the more famous Platonic philosophers) emerged rather suddenly and enigmatically around the sixth century BC.
>>18438450shit, I didn't even know he died.his books are great. It's pretty clear now the Pentateuch is a work post-Hellenization. It's amazing nobody had championed that perspective to this degree before Gmirkin. Biblical studies has problems.
>>18438450niggas really be named G-merkin like Goon jerkin nawmsayin
>>18439641>Biblical studies has problemsThe Copenhagen school has done it for quite a while now. I think Niels Peter Lemche posited something similar. Speaking of Niels, he's actually going to help get Russell's final work published. It's going to be on the Book of Kings.
>>18438478>logos spermatikoshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationes_seminales>The idea passed into Christian thought through the writings of authors such as Justin Martyr... Athenagoras... Tertullian... Gregory of Nyssa... Augustine of Hippo...This is annoying. The idea is right there in Mark 4, the parable of the sower. "The sower sows the logos."
>>18439663Yeah, but I think the logos in that case means the gospel as spoken by Jesus, which is basically the complete message. I think the idea expressed by Justin Martyr is that the philosophers, seeking wisdom, got a taste of the gospel and developed a system of thought around it.
>>18439667This is what Christians often assume, the same way they assume that must be what Paul means in Romans 10 when he says, "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ." But they ignore what comes immediately after, "But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have: "Their voice has gone out to all the earth and their words to the ends of the world." indicating that the word of Christ isn't just some spoken message, but something everyone has some access to, a logos spermatikos. And if Paul has the idea, why couldn't Jesus have the idea? Maybe secular historians can doubt that their supposedly illiterate Gallilean Jesus would be familiar with Greek philosophy (in fact IIRC it's been argued that the whole parable of the sower can't be from Jesus because it's actually an allegory, an especially Hellenic mode of storytelling). But Christians think he's a divine being, so why not?
>>18438457>>18438552They weren’t influenced by Jews lmao. Greek philosophers were actually influenced by pagan theologians of the middle east like Egyptian priests, Chaldean astrologers, and the Magi of Persia. None of this is hidden knowledge or some recent discovery, Greek philosophers themselves outright stated “yeah I got this from Egyptian priests” several times in their works.Jews played no role whatsoever, none of the ideas of Greek philosophers are even present in the Tanakh.
>>18439677>Jews played no role whatsoever, none of the ideas of Greek philosophers are even present in the Tanakh.This is why the Jews were so insistent on fabricating a history about themselves. The Pentateuch is deeply imperfect, but the broader body of the Hebrew Bible shatters any sense of coherence about the past.
>>18439674I've always been very uncertain about Paul because he is a man deeply inspired by the Greeks himself. His story is also shrouded in mystery. I don't believe the Acts narrative about him either. I think he was up in Cilicia and then skulking about Syria, chiefly Antioch, tormenting the Christians there. I don't think he was even in the same area as Jesus during his lifetime. Jesus, from what I can gather, was a deeply pious Jew who embraced the scriptures fully. That's why James, his brother, who was the actual head of the Church, was pretty strict about Torah observance, including circumcising the gentiles.
>>18439703Nothing I said is false.
>>18439682>>18439705Sorry, I deleted my post because I thought it would be easier to just list some of the assumptions I disagree with, although I still think defending my takes on them all right now isn't worth the trouble when it's so late.1. That Paul actually tormented anyone2. That Jesus was a deeply pious Jew who embraced the scriptures fully3. That there was a James who was both biologically related to Jesus and a significant leader of the early church4. That the the men said to be "from James" were acting as proper representatives of said James (who isn't obviously the same as the James called "brother of the Lord") and that the Judaizers mentioned elsewhere can also be supposed to be representatives of said James.Those are some of the premises I disagree with and which I think can be effectively argued against at least to the point of making it entirely viable that each of them is mistaken.
>>18438450My age minus a year. I've learned it only pretty recently.
>>18439732The fact that you seem quite aware as to what I was pointing to and yet still refute it is deeply interesting.1.>For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.2.>And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’>For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Torah until everything is accomplished.>Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.>“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the Torah—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, WITHOUT neglecting the former.3.>James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.4. (Considering that this is only a few verses later, Paul is without a doubt referring to the same James)>When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group.
