I know there storms that destroyed part of the fleet. But really, did the Mongols have any chance to conquer Japan? It sounds like a logistical nightmare. And the Mongols were stucked for weeks before the storms came.
>>18439904The Mongol Invasions caused the destruction of Kamakura government, an ensuing civil war and ushered in the Muromachi period.So yeah, if these were Genghis mongols (who picked a single target and pounded them to dirt before moving on) instead of Kublai mongols (who were fighting 4 campaigns all at the same time and seemed to lack the entire notion of managing resources), Japan would likely fall as it simply didn't have a robust and resilient state to organise the defenses for a prolonged amount of time.Hopefully it at least helps you see why historians hold people overly obsessed and focused on warfare in contempt. We don't know how would a grand uber-campaign of Mongols at their peak and Kamakura defenses go. But once you stop asking dumb questions you'll quickly see that both the Mongols and Kamakura did themselves in. Mongols through sheer stupidity of their leadership and Kamakura because their state/society never accounted for territorial defense expenditures and never managed to adapt to it.And so in the end the Mongols successfully destroyed Japan, they just weren't there to try and conquer it. So did they have a chance? Yes. Would it have worked? さあな, that's reaching into alt-history and that's again a topic for kids and maladjusted autists, not people who study history.
The Hakata/Fukuoka area is extremely rainy to this day, I used to think of the storms as a freak occurrence but now I think they're just normal in that part of the world and the Mongols were bound to get hit sooner or later.
>>18439904In a vacuum? Yes. The Japanese at the time were genuinely retarded, they didn't really have the capacity to resist anyone who wasn't as backwards as they were.
>>18440201The Mongols invaded in the 13th century. It wasn't neolithic Japan anymore.
>>18440019The Nanboku-cho period started 50 years after the Mongol invasions. Yes, they were a factor in the sense that the Hojo not having any new land to give out to the samurai they called up to fight was a greivance that contributed to Go-Daigo successfully rallying the samurai against them. But to try and argue that this is somehow evidence that the invasions would have been successful without the typhoons is completely retarded. Japan at the time of the invasions was unified, ready, and willing to fight and were holding off the Mongols just fine. The first time Japan was conquered since the Yayoi landed was WWII. And not even that involved an invasion. It was never going to happen.
>>18440201Mongols and Korean fear Samurai steel
>>18440220>But to try and argue that this is somehow evidence that the invasions would have been successful without the typhoons is completely retarded.And if you read my post, anon, you'd see I'm not doing so. In fact I'm lampshading the whole nonsense of internet's obsession with those early invasions and typhoons during typhoon season.It doesn't matter what happens because Kamakura is dead the moment Mongols call the invasion (because their only way of paying people off is through new territory they can never gain) and it doesn't matter how the Mongolian invasions go. Likewise, it doesn't matter how the Mongolian invasions go since they'll roll over and die at around the same time Japanese opposition to Kamakura gains traction.I.e. the answer to OP's very queer question is that yes, the Mongols had a chance to fuck up Japan but it had fuck all to do with anything related to warfare prowess or storms.And I likewise told him to fuck off with the secondary alt-history question of "OK, so Kublai isn't a retard and prods the Japanese, waits them out and waits for the inevitable civil war, picking sides, etc etc." Which is the same sort of bullshit as going "So a Siberian horse is able to piss 3 liters a day while an Arabian horse is able to piss only 2.5 liters. How does this and the sign of Jupiter prove that X or Y is able to successfully do Z and thus gain complete political control of Japan. Fun for some, has fuck all to do with history beyond pretending it's talking about it.
>>18440206Yeah and they were still utterly backwards. You have individual samurai riding out and calling for duels, while mounted and shooting arrows/advancing directly at targets. Infantry wasn't exactly organized either. They were utterly backwards when it can to actually making war on a tactical level. To the point where contemporary western Europeans, despite being rightly considered shit at open field warfare, would've been able to roll over Japanese forces. In a vacuum, muh mongols vs muh nippon, Japan would've been crushed.
>>18440309>You have individual samurai riding out and calling for duels, while mounted and shooting arrows/advancing directly at targets.Yeah, it happens when members of the same warrior class fight each other. Not when they're against an outsider. The japanese sources mostly talk about small raids conducted against the mongolian fleet.>In a vacuum, muh mongols vs muh nippon, Japan would've been crushed.Which isn't what's being discussed here. The question is whether or not an invasion of Japan could be successful considering the logistical constraints of the time period.
Most of the army that got there were Korean conscripts and they were absolutely massacred by the Japanese bushi, who were actually themselves largely mounted archers at the time. The ocean prevented a true Mongol army from descending on Japan. If 10,000 elite mongol cavalry arrived in Japan in good order, they probably would've swept over Honshu in a matter of months, if not weeks.
>>18440300>during typhoon season.The first one was completely out of season.
>>18440402>Japanese yuri + mountains terrain/riverAre you sure?
>>18440414If mountains and rivers were any barrier to Mongol armies they never would've even conquered China, let alone Afghanistan.
>>18440019so basically, monke ambition trumps monke sustainabilityA tale as old as civilization as we know it
>>18440414>yuri
>>18440699Got confused about Yari.
>>18440416The Mongols offered Korean wives to Han Chinese soldiers who defected to their side.Mongol Yuan emperor Kublai Khan handed out Korean girls to Han Chinese men and foreign Hui Muslims in China. He deported R1a Central Asian Muslims to China and Korea and gave them Korean wives.https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/7877569/#q7878460https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/10828773/#q10830396https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/12668741/#q12672821Meanwhile Salar Muslims are Turkmen who moved from Central Asia in Samarqand to Qinghai and married Tibetan women in 1370 ADhttps://desuarchive.org/his/thread/11852821/
>>18440416>>18440892Mongols sold their own children including daughters as slaves to Han Chinese during the Yuan dynasty.https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/13220256/#q13220278>>13220278Kublai Khan had to hand out Korean women as wives to the Southern Song soldiers in Xiangyang (now turned into the Xinfu jun,newly submitted army) after they demanded Kublai provide them with women, after defecting.https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/17388491/#q17388491>>17388491Han dynasty China also ruled Vietnam and Korea 2000 years ago.Han general Guo Kan's grandfather Guo Baoyu participated in Genghis Khan's conquest of Khwarezmia in Central Asia.Guo Kan grew up in the household of Han general Shi Tianze, whose sons all married Mongol womenHan general Shi Tianze's son Shi Gang married a Mongol Kerait Nestorian Christian womanAnother one of his sons married the daughter of Mongol official Menggu Baer.Mongols sold their own children incliding daughters as slaves to Han Chinese during the Yuan dynastyhttps://desuarchive.org/his/thread/13220256/#q13220278>>13220278Shandong Han noble Duke Yansheng Kong Xixue (Confucius family) married a Mongol woman from the Sulduz tribe.
>>18440220>>18440337Japanese women and girls got raped by Jurchens (Manchus) en masse in the Toi pirate raids.Under Ming dynasty southern Han Chinese rule, Jurchens (Manchus) were forced to sell their daughters or starve to death in famine during the ninth 9th year of the Ming Xuande emperor's reign.>宣德九年,女真地区灾荒,女真人被迫卖儿鬻女,四处流亡,逃向辽东的女真难民,希望得到官府的赈济。针对这一情况,亦失哈急忙上疏,请求动用贮存在这里作为赏赐奴儿干的粮食和物资,赈济前来求食的难民。英宗立即批准了他的请求。除此之外,亦失哈还动用个人的积存,救济难民。The Ming Yongle emperor already had Jurchen women and Vietnamese women as concubines and Jurchen eunuchs like Yishiha and Vietnamese eunuchs like Nguyen An after conquering Manchuria ruling it as the Nurgan regional military commission and conquering Vietnam, ruling it as Jiaozhi. Both Vietnamese and Jurchens women were having sex with Han Chinese men.Jurchen Toi pirates once got on ships and raided Japan for girls to take and rape as concubines and sex slaves.>The Toi pirates sailed with about 50 ships from direction of Goryeo, then assaulted Tsushima and Iki, starting 27 March 1019. After the Iki Island garrison comprising 147 soldiers was wiped out, the pirates has proceed to Hakata Bay. For a week, using Noko Island [ja] in the Hakata Bay as a base, they sacked villages and kidnapped over 1,000 Japanese, mostly women and young girls, for use as slaves.>1019 Michinaga falls ill and takes holy orders, but continues to dominate the court.>Toi (Jurchen)pirates in fifty or more ships ravage Tshushima, Iki, and the northern coast of Kyushu.https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/8101383#p8101398https://s2.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/his/image/1581/93/1581937580379.png
>>18440897>>18440894>>18440892Seek help.
